Professional Real Estate Appraiser

[cigar7]

Does anyone know of a professional real estate appraiser, who can provide a written evaluation or appraisal of a condo in Pattaya, for litigation purposes? The appraisal/evaluation needs to be valid and acceptable to a court of law on Ontario Canada. Ideally I'd like to get 2 different appraisals.

Already tried one of the real estate companies that advertise here on Thai Visa, and they wouldn't do it.

[jimmybkk]

Try the big boys in BKK such as CB Richard Ellis, Knight Frank etc...

[KittenKong]

I'm surprised they wouldn't do it as it's very easy money and no skin off their nose if the appraisal is wrong (no one will ever accept any sort of liability for an estimate here).

Just goes to show how bone idle they all are, I suppose.

Of course your other problem will be whether you need an estimation of an average asking price, or an estimation of a price at which the unit would actually sell. The two will probably be very different here. I'll leave you to guess which will be lower.

[Asiantravel]

I'm surprised they wouldn't do it as it's very easy money and no skin off their nose if the appraisal is wrong (no one will ever accept any sort of liability for an estimate here).

Just goes to show how bone idle they all are, I suppose.

Of course your other problem will be whether you need an estimation of an average asking price, or an estimation of a price at which the unit would actually sell. The two will probably be very different here. I'll leave you to guess which will be lower.

Even though I'm not a fan of real estate consultants, I think their reluctance is more to do with the fact that they probably simply haven't got the licence required by the Securities and Exchange Commission in Thailand which they need now to provide formal valuations.

And by the way you are certainly most wrong about the extent of their liability. Valuers can be sued for negligence here now just as much as they can in any other country.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

here are links to independent valuation organisations although I have no idea if they have representation in pattaya

http://www.area.co.th/english/bar11.php

http://www.american-appraisal.com/US/Global-Locations.htm

[jimmybkk]

Do you know what the requirements of the Ontario courts are when it comes to approving/accepting an overseas real estate appraisal? Are they looking for the appraiser to have an internationally recognized qualification?

Probably best to establish that first because what they require may rule out a large percentage of the valuers here.

[KittenKong]

And by the way you are certainly most wrong about the extent of their liability. Valuers can be sued for negligence here now just as much as they can in any other country.

I see a big difference between suing for negligence (slow, expensive and hard to prove) and accepting liability for the accuracy of an estimate. Some countries provide consumers with more legal protection than others, of course, but the ones I've lived in don't offer much at all in respect to that.

Interesting to hear that a licence is now required here to provide valuations. It's a shame they dont make all real estate agents have one.

[Torrens54]

Happy hunting 555!

[Asiantravel]

And by the way you are certainly most wrong about the extent of their liability. Valuers can be sued for negligence here now just as much as they can in any other country.

I see a big difference between suing for negligence (slow, expensive and hard to prove) and accepting liability for the accuracy of an estimate. Some countries provide consumers with more legal protection than others, of course, but the ones I've lived in don't offer much at all in respect to that.

Interesting to hear that a licence is now required here to provide valuations. It's a shame they dont make all real estate agents have one.

You show considerable confusion regarding your knowledge about the nature of property valuations.

You keep going on about estimation?

And negligence is not hard to prove at all because the courts only need to look at the standard of the research carried out by the valuer before they arrived at their opinion and the way they have interpreted the information and data in their research to determine if they were negligent.

It has nothing to do with " accepting liability ". If you are representing yourself as being a qualified valuer you automatically then carry the burden of purportedly being able to provide one meaningful figure.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Asiantravel]

Do you know what the requirements of the Ontario courts are when it comes to approving/accepting an overseas real estate appraisal? Are they looking for the appraiser to have an internationally recognized qualification?

Probably best to establish that first because what they require may rule out a large percentage of the valuers here.

You raise a good point but there is no such thing as an internationally recognised qualification for valuers.

This is because most countries now have licensing requirements and the standards are set from country to country or even state by state.

Yes there are worldwide professional bodies for valuers such as the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors in the UK or the Appraisal Institute in USA but these only set desirable standards and they are certainly not necessary in this country. Thailand has its own professional valuation organisation.

I would find it incredibly hard to believe that an Ontario court would refuse to accept the opinion of a properly licensed valuer (licensed by the SEC in Thailand), whether or not he or she has these overseas qualifications.

[KittenKong]

You show considerable confusion regarding your knowledge about the nature of property valuations.

You keep going on about estimation?

I'm not confused at all. Maybe you are. Any valuation is just an estimation. Or call it an educated guess if you prefer.

And negligence is not hard to prove at all because the courts only need to look at the standard of the research carried out by the valuer before they arrived at their opinion and the way they have interpreted the information and data in their research to determine if they were negligent.

Well, I would say that it is very hard to prove negligence when it comes to estimating a value. Apparently you know better.

It has nothing to do with " accepting liability ". If you are representing yourself as being a qualified valuer you automatically then carry the burden of purportedly being able to provide one meaningful figure.

Nice idea, but it just doesn't work like that.

[Asiantravel]

You show considerable confusion regarding your knowledge about the nature of property valuations.

You keep going on about estimation?

I'm not confused at all. Maybe you are. Any valuation is just an estimation. Or call it an educated guess if you prefer.

And negligence is not hard to prove at all because the courts only need to look at the standard of the research carried out by the valuer before they arrived at their opinion and the way they have interpreted the information and data in their research to determine if they were negligent.

Well, I would say that it is very hard to prove negligence when it comes to estimating a value. Apparently you know better.

It has nothing to do with " accepting liability ". If you are representing yourself as being a qualified valuer you automatically then carry the burden of purportedly being able to provide one meaningful figure.

Nice idea, but it just doesn't work like that.

The fact that you made this statement proves you are waffling about something you have no idea about.

I have been involved in successfully prosecuting real estate valuers who were found to be negligent and we received substantial compensation from their insurance companies.

And what exactly is your area of expertise in this area?

It may pay you to read something and learn instead of spouting hot air

http://www.nortonrosefulbright.com/files/professional-negligence-claims-against-valuers-68659.pdf

[KittenKong]

Nice brochure. But somehow I just dont see teams of multinational lawyers bothering to try and get compensation for an incorrectly valued Pattaya condo, even assuming that there was any negligence involved in the first place.

Personally I put lawyers in the same bucket as real estate agents and financial advisers. The less I see of them the happier (and richer) I am.

[ciaociao]

Nice brochure. But somehow I just dont see teams of multinational lawyers bothering to try and get compensation for an incorrectly valued Pattaya condo, even assuming that there was any negligence involved in the first place.

Personally I put lawyers in the same bucket as real estate agents and financial advisers. The less I see of them the happier (and richer) I am.

Same ++

[jimmybkk]

Nice brochure. But somehow I just dont see teams of multinational lawyers bothering to try and get compensation for an incorrectly valued Pattaya condo, even assuming that there was any negligence involved in the first place.

Personally I put lawyers in the same bucket as real estate agents and financial advisers. The less I see of them the happier (and richer) I am.

Pretty sure that whether they would bother to try or not would depend upon the size of the fee they could charge

[Asiantravel]

Nice brochure. But somehow I just dont see teams of multinational lawyers bothering to try and get compensation for an incorrectly valued Pattaya condo, even assuming that there was any negligence involved in the first place.

Personally I put lawyers in the same bucket as real estate agents and financial advisers. The less I see of them the happier (and richer) I am.

Well, obviously we were very happy with our lawyers who managed to get us a sizeable financial award.

Love the way your previous assertions regarding proving negligence just fizzled out

I would say however, even the most mediocre lawyer could run rings around you.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Asiantravel

[PattayaPhom]

Agents would give an appraisal on the assumption the vendor will sell, hence being paid commision. For legal purposes a small fee is only required. In Pattaya I find that most vendors feel an agents appraisal is not want they want to hear and a long discussion ensues of real values.

As a fellow TV member would be happy to provide the OP with a written valuation that reflects the genuine value of the condo.

[Asiantravel]

Agents would give an appraisal on the assumption the vendor will sell, hence being paid commision. For legal purposes a small fee is only required. In Pattaya I find that most vendors feel an agents appraisal is not want they want to hear and a long discussion ensues of real values.

As a fellow TV member would be happy to provide the OP with a written valuation that reflects the genuine value of the condo.

But because he needs it for the court purposes, I would say your name would need to be on the following list

List of Valuation Company and Principal Valuers

http://www.sec.or.th/EN/RaisingFunds/EquityDebt/Pages/ListofMarketProfessionals.aspx

[PattayaPhom]

Agents would give an appraisal on the assumption the vendor will sell, hence being paid commision. For legal purposes a small fee is only required. In Pattaya I find that most vendors feel an agents appraisal is not want they want to hear and a long discussion ensues of real values.

As a fellow TV member would be happy to provide the OP with a written valuation that reflects the genuine value of the condo.

But because he needs it for the court purposes, I would say your name would need to be on the following list

List of Valuation Company and Principal Valuers

http://www.sec.or.th/EN/RaisingFunds/EquityDebt/Pages/ListofMarketProfessionals.aspx

I havnt a clue how the Canadian courst work, and in all honesty dont think anyone would come under the SEC in Thailand.,,,just looked at you link...uhmmmm, thats a learning curve

Edited March 17, 2014 by PattayaPhom

[Asiantravel]

Agents would give an appraisal on the assumption the vendor will sell, hence being paid commision. For legal purposes a small fee is only required. In Pattaya I find that most vendors feel an agents appraisal is not want they want to hear and a long discussion ensues of real values.

As a fellow TV member would be happy to provide the OP with a written valuation that reflects the genuine value of the condo.

But because he needs it for the court purposes, I would say your name would need to be on the following list

List of Valuation Company and Principal Valuers

http://www.sec.or.th/EN/RaisingFunds/EquityDebt/Pages/ListofMarketProfessionals.aspx

I havnt a clue how the Canadian courst work, and in all honesty dont think anyone would come under the SEC in Thailand.,,,just looked at you link...uhmmmm, thats a learning curve

Whether it is Canada or any reasonably advanced country I can tell you from previous experience the first thing the lawyers will read out to the court is the qualifications, experience and standing of the valuer who has prepared the report being tendered as evidence. If you are not a licensed valuer in the country in which the property being considered by the court is located, your report wouldn't even get a mention.

And those 91 people on the list most certainly come under the SEC in Thailand because the SEC issue their licences to entitle them to legally be called real estate valuers.

This is all part of the quite exhaustive reform process that they instigated following the 1997 Asian crisis. but if you are involved in real estate yourself here in Thailand, I'm rather surprised you didn't know about these rules already?

Edited March 17, 2014 by Asiantravel

[PattayaPhom]

Agents would give an appraisal on the assumption the vendor will sell, hence being paid commision. For legal purposes a small fee is only required. In Pattaya I find that most vendors feel an agents appraisal is not want they want to hear and a long discussion ensues of real values.

As a fellow TV member would be happy to provide the OP with a written valuation that reflects the genuine value of the condo.

But because he needs it for the court purposes, I would say your name would need to be on the following list

List of Valuation Company and Principal Valuers

http://www.sec.or.th/EN/RaisingFunds/EquityDebt/Pages/ListofMarketProfessionals.aspx

I havnt a clue how the Canadian courst work, and in all honesty dont think anyone would come under the SEC in Thailand.,,,just looked at you link...uhmmmm, thats a learning curve

Whether it is Canada or any reasonably advanced country I can tell you from previous experience the first thing the lawyers will read out to the court is the qualifications, experience and standing of the valuer who has prepared the report being tendered as evidence. If you are not a licensed valuer in the country in which the property being considered by the court is located, your report wouldn't even get a mention.

And those 91 people on the list most certainly come under the SEC in Thailand because the SEC issue their licences to entitle them to legally be called real estate valuers.

This is all part of the quite exhaustive reform process that they instigated following the 1997 Asian crisis. but if you are involved in real estate yourself here in Thailand, I'm rather surprised you didn't know about these rules already?

As I said, a learning curve, as it isnt something that is of any importance to me is why I didnt know and I do appreciate the info for future reference however I really couldnt give a rolling doughnut that is flying as to what the SEC require in a different continent.

[KittenKong]

Well, obviously we were very happy with our lawyers who managed to get us a sizeable financial award.

Love the way your previous assertions regarding proving negligence just fizzled out:o

I would say however, even the most mediocre lawyer could run rings around you.

I cant say I have any respect for those who decorate all their comments, and am usually inclined just let them blow raspberries in their own sandpit, but never mind.

My "previous assertions" didnt fizzle out at all. You failed to address them.

If your valuer had accepted responsibility for his estimate then presumably your lawyers would not have needed to sue him for negligence, would they? So as I said, good luck trying to find one that will accept such liability here. And even better luck trying to sue him when the estimate turns out to be wrong, especially if there is no actual negligence involved.

In your particular case, perhaps you would have been better off just getting the price right in the first place? Might have saved you a lot of wasted time.

And as I mentioned, I doubt your legal eagles would even look twice at action relating to the valuation of a Pattaya condo. Not much in the way of fees to be had there, and not much joy either, I suspect.

I cant really see how anyone can seriously expect to get a viable estimate for a Pattaya condo at all, unless it's something on the lines of "around xMB, give or take 50%". So why even bother?

[cigar7]

Do you know what the requirements of the Ontario courts are when it comes to approving/accepting an overseas real estate appraisal? Are they looking for the appraiser to have an internationally recognized qualification?

Probably best to establish that first because what they require may rule out a large percentage of the valuers here.

My approach was going to be to provide a reasonable valuation, by someone who has been providing appraisals for a reasonable time, maybe 5 or 10 years, in the pattaya area, who could be considered an expert in old condo sale prices. Normally the court accepts and acts on "expert opinion", if the court finds this unacceptable, then the court can decide their own value, by providing their reasoning. Maybe I could provide 2 appraisals.

The appraisal isn't difficult or prone to legal action. There are units changing ownership in the building and all you have to do is get a copy of the purchase and sale agreements and make adjustments for the differences. The adjustments will be minor compared to the selling prices. An adjustment might be my unit is floor 12 and the unit that sold was floor 3. One can look at the land office valuation between a unit on floor 12 and floor 3, to get a reasonable factor for adjustment. In fact, this is what I plan to do if I can't get a qualified appraiser. We are only talking about a condo in the 1.3m to 2m baht range. I might even suggest the original purchase price, which now seems like I over paid back in 2011, based on current selling prices.

Edited March 20, 2014 by cigar7