Decentralised Thai administration discussed at PDRC forum

[GuestHouse]

The PTP seem to have beaten them to it.

The Puppet PM has moved all her duties to the provinces, shunning the capital in favour of a non stop provincial tour.

[fab4]

Be good to know which 10 to 15 provinces the good professor feels are good to go. I suspect they are ones in which they are sure that their candidate will win, and where they have the requisite"good people" in place to run things in a "peoples council".

I'll bet that the local consultations will be, um, let us say, geographically specific. Can't see Suthep rocking up in Chiang Rai to consult with the locals about his new style of government, at least not without a couple of regiments of infantry in support!

As an afterthought, is it not amazing to find the Dean of a Faculty of Political Science from a leading university so enthusiastically endorsing replacing a democracy (however flawed and nascent) with a corporatist (think Mussolini) dictatorship?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thank you, after reading your amazing comment I now understand why Yingluck does not visit the south to "meet and greet" with her people. They just don't like her down there.

So out of curiosity, where in the south do you live?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Louisiana?

[whatsupdoc]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

I think you are confusing the old days with the 'Red" present and future vision. Thai farmers are told by the (red) village head who they should vote for. I agree that should change.

[mikemac]

So out of curiosity, does anyone know how many trips to the south of Thailand Yingluck has made since taking (being handed) office ?

I would not mind betting she has made a lot more to her safe seats in the north-east where she is regarded as the "darling" and even made more overseas shopping trips.

[Fat Haggis]

Why does vote buying matter so much to Farangs who have no say in Thai Politics or how villages should conduct themselves? That's the way it's been done for decades, what gives you the right to tell a village head in another Country with a completely different culture how they should be running their villages, that have been run like that since before you were a twinkle in your old mans eye ??

I wouldn't dream of coming into your home and telling you how you should arrange your home, or how your partner should be cooking !!!

[mikemac]

Why does vote buying matter so much to Farangs who have no say in Thai Politics or how villages should conduct themselves? That's the way it's been done for decades, what gives you the right to tell a village head in another Country with a completely different culture how they should be running their villages, that have been run like that since before you were a twinkle in your old mans eye ??

I wouldn't dream of coming into your home and telling you how you should arrange your home, or how your partner should be cooking !!!

Suddenly all the graft, corruption, public funds skimming and bs seems ok !

[SICHONSTEVE]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

"Having a centralised state and a representative democracy are failures"

Wise words indeed - Thailand is not ready and cannot be trusted with democracy.

Totally agree with all within this article - decentralisation of government agencies in the North/North East and perhaps some provinces in the East will gain immensely from this. They will acquire more responsibility tailored to their situation and importantly will have vastly larger amounts of money to spend as needed (with good checks and balances kept on what transpires).

Just think about the support that could be given and projects that could be set up to help the rice farmers to grow rice properly to successfully compete with India, Vietnam and others. I think that advising the farmers on what crops grow the best and are more productive and profit making (done in a zoning fashion) depending on the climate and soil condition is the only sensible thing that this government ever came up with. Giving them extra money to enable them to follow through with this makes much more sense than throwing money down the drain a la 'great rice scam'.

[BirdsandBooze]

Without a watchdog of trustworthy people (are there any?) This will be used as route one to the trough.

[Fat Haggis]

Why does vote buying matter so much to Farangs who have no say in Thai Politics or how villages should conduct themselves? That's the way it's been done for decades, what gives you the right to tell a village head in another Country with a completely different culture how they should be running their villages, that have been run like that since before you were a twinkle in your old mans eye ??

I wouldn't dream of coming into your home and telling you how you should arrange your home, or how your partner should be cooking !!!

Suddenly all the graft, corruption, public funds skimming and bs seems ok !

I never said corruption was okay, but you think that Thai's are the only ones aiding and abetting corruption within Thailand? Again I asked why VOTE BUYING was such a big deal to Farangs who cannot influence Thai Politics and don't even have a say.. and what gives them the right to try and impose their views and opinions on a huge cultural difference race??

Are we going to see Farangs now going all over Issan and the North East like Jehova's Witnesse's and telling the village Elders they've been doing it all wrong????

Good luck with that one, let me know when you're up in the Korat area preaching your version of politics and how it should be done and I'll buy you a beer

[wolf5370]

Decentralised management is all very nice until you need to control the money supply with check and balances , not that I don't trust these gentleman, but I would prefer central control on finance, with so many hoops to jump that it will drive the governors crazy , just what it was intended to do , just to let them know that if anybody could be trusted, there wouldn't be as many required and I also have big reservations about why this was proposed . Verdict: open , subject to abuse

The danger is that centralised budget is that it does not move away from the trough scenario we have now, and allows for preferential treatment to given areas (like Bangkok only as in the past - and "only provinces that voted for us" in the current). The best way is to have a centralised military and state budget and national tax system, but off set the rest as regional budgets based on population and size, and local taxation system. That way each region can decide how much to dedicate to education, health, transport, development, etc.

I am a little worried about the governor process though - I would prefer devolved local parliaments instead - that way there is a democratic process with the normal checks and balances and not a post-check on a single person's decisions - it also, more importantly, allows for many eyes, many ears and many hearts on all matters and not one (wo)man that can be swayed, mistaken or misled much easier. Personally I would do away with governors all together and replace them with representatives (Regional MPs) on a province by province basis - to sit in their respective devolved regional parliament - and rake back the money that is spent on their premises and upkeep to pay for regional parliaments instead (74 provinces, 5 regions + State (Bangkok) ). Obviouis regions I guess: North (Lanna), North-East (Issan), Central (Rice Bowl), South and Islands, South Coastal (Diagonal down from Kanchanaburi to Chantaburi/Trat and along the coast to Ratchaburi - at a guess).

[wolf5370]

Why does vote buying matter so much to Farangs who have no say in Thai Politics or how villages should conduct themselves? That's the way it's been done for decades, what gives you the right to tell a village head in another Country with a completely different culture how they should be running their villages, that have been run like that since before you were a twinkle in your old mans eye ??

I wouldn't dream of coming into your home and telling you how you should arrange your home, or how your partner should be cooking !!!

Suddenly all the graft, corruption, public funds skimming and bs seems ok !

I never said corruption was okay, but you think that Thai's are the only ones aiding and abetting corruption within Thailand? Again I asked why VOTE BUYING was such a big deal to Farangs who cannot influence Thai Politics and don't even have a say.. and what gives them the right to try and impose their views and opinions on a huge cultural difference race??

Are we going to see Farangs now going all over Issan and the North East like Jehova's Witnesse's and telling the village Elders they've been doing it all wrong????

Good luck with that one, let me know when you're up in the Korat area preaching your version of politics and how it should be done and I'll buy you a beer

As always the answer to the puerile question (one step away from "if you don't like it go home") is, that many of us have lived here a long time, have Thai families (even extended ones) - therefore politics in this country is important to us - in the same way it was important to slaves and women before they could vote or influence it in any real way - because it affects us and our loved ones. Get it yet!

Just because something has been done for a long time (less than 100 years!), does not mean that it should not be changed - and often the most grotesque things carried out by a state (such as slavery, ethnic cleansing, mass murder of its own citizens) required foreign pressure to make a change, at least to wake up the impacted to allow them to see that it does not have to be that way!

Vote buying is undemocratic and it spoils the democratic process - it should be very important to the red crowd really as they have consistently hung on to the notion that being voted in as the be all and end all of democracy (ignoring the other precept therein) - and when even that small part of democracy is corrupted, where does that leave the plight of the people they supposedly speak for in their millions (and if they do so - why the need to buy votes anyway?).

BTW the "guest rearranging furniture" metaphor has been done to death here and is far from an accurate representation of those of us with Thai families, jobs, pay taxes etc - more like paying to stay in an apartment owned by your brother-in-law and opting to replace his old non-functioning furniture with new and better quality stuff, that you will leave behind for him to make use of after you leave.

[wolf5370]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

"Having a centralised state and a representative democracy are failures"

Wise words indeed - Thailand is not ready and cannot be trusted with democracy.

Totally agree with all within this article - decentralisation of government agencies in the North/North East and perhaps some provinces in the East will gain immensely from this. They will acquire more responsibility tailored to their situation and importantly will have vastly larger amounts of money to spend as needed (with good checks and balances kept on what transpires).

Just think about the support that could be given and projects that could be set up to help the rice farmers to grow rice properly to successfully compete with India, Vietnam and others. I think that advising the farmers on what crops grow the best and are more productive and profit making (done in a zoning fashion) depending on the climate and soil condition is the only sensible thing that this government ever came up with. Giving them extra money to enable them to follow through with this makes much more sense than throwing money down the drain a la 'great rice scam'.

Unfortunately that is not what is being spoken of - using the provincial governors (making them elected) does not make it much better than a centralised system. With a single person controlling the budget, it is no different from the village poo yai that pockets the development money his village garners right now. Decentralisation is good - putting it in the hands of one person is nuts - doping it a province level is mad too, expensive (have to have people employed in each province to execute it) and repetitive (most of Issan will have the same needs, so fair decisions, assuming there are any, would be same, same) - it needs to be regional and democratic (elected local officials from each provinces therein sitting like a mini-parliament with parliamentary checks and balances, and an open forum to allow for public challenging in lieu of a second house).

[SICHONSTEVE]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

"Having a centralised state and a representative democracy are failures"

Wise words indeed - Thailand is not ready and cannot be trusted with democracy.

Totally agree with all within this article - decentralisation of government agencies in the North/North East and perhaps some provinces in the East will gain immensely from this. They will acquire more responsibility tailored to their situation and importantly will have vastly larger amounts of money to spend as needed (with good checks and balances kept on what transpires).

Just think about the support that could be given and projects that could be set up to help the rice farmers to grow rice properly to successfully compete with India, Vietnam and others. I think that advising the farmers on what crops grow the best and are more productive and profit making (done in a zoning fashion) depending on the climate and soil condition is the only sensible thing that this government ever came up with. Giving them extra money to enable them to follow through with this makes much more sense than throwing money down the drain a la 'great rice scam'.

Unfortunately that is not what is being spoken of - using the provincial governors (making them elected) does not make it much better than a centralised system. With a single person controlling the budget, it is no different from the village poo yai that pockets the development money his village garners right now. Decentralisation is good - putting it in the hands of one person is nuts - doping it a province level is mad too, expensive (have to have people employed in each province to execute it) and repetitive (most of Issan will have the same needs, so fair decisions, assuming there are any, would be same, same) - it needs to be regional and democratic (elected local officials from each provinces therein sitting like a mini-parliament with parliamentary checks and balances, and an open forum to allow for public challenging in lieu of a second house).

These are just 'ideas in the making' being bandied about at the moment. I think that they are moving along the right lines but they must make sure that they get the details correct when it comes to devising the reforms to ensure transparency and that everything is properly costed out and justified.

[HonestQuietBob]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

"Having a centralised state and a representative democracy are failures"

Wise words indeed - Thailand is not ready and cannot be trusted with democracy.

Totally agree with all within this article - decentralisation of government agencies in the North/North East and perhaps some provinces in the East will gain immensely from this. They will acquire more responsibility tailored to their situation and importantly will have vastly larger amounts of money to spend as needed (with good checks and balances kept on what transpires).

Just think about the support that could be given and projects that could be set up to help the rice farmers to grow rice properly to successfully compete with India, Vietnam and others. I think that advising the farmers on what crops grow the best and are more productive and profit making (done in a zoning fashion) depending on the climate and soil condition is the only sensible thing that this government ever came up with. Giving them extra money to enable them to follow through with this makes much more sense than throwing money down the drain a la 'great rice scam'.

Unfortunately that is not what is being spoken of - using the provincial governors (making them elected) does not make it much better than a centralised system. With a single person controlling the budget, it is no different from the village poo yai that pockets the development money his village garners right now. Decentralisation is good - putting it in the hands of one person is nuts - doping it a province level is mad too, expensive (have to have people employed in each province to execute it) and repetitive (most of Issan will have the same needs, so fair decisions, assuming there are any, would be same, same) - it needs to be regional and democratic (elected local officials from each provinces therein sitting like a mini-parliament with parliamentary checks and balances, and an open forum to allow for public challenging in lieu of a second house).

These are just 'ideas in the making' being bandied about at the moment. I think that they are moving along the right lines but they must make sure that they get the details correct when it comes to devising the reforms to ensure transparency and that everything is properly costed out and justified.

One would think these are the sort of things you would get sorted out before plunging the nation into chaos.

Out of curiosity, if Sutheps "good people" council gets up and decide they need 3 or 4 years instead of 18 months to finish "moving along the right lines" is there anything that anyone can do to oppose them?

[SICHONSTEVE]

The next item on the agenda (post reforms) is free and fair elections. This committee won't be running the government in the interim - they will be working in the background devising the reforms before holding ensuing elections to choose the government whence the neutral government/body will step down!!!

[Thai at Heart]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

"Having a centralised state and a representative democracy are failures"

Wise words indeed - Thailand is not ready and cannot be trusted with democracy.

Totally agree with all within this article - decentralisation of government agencies in the North/North East and perhaps some provinces in the East will gain immensely from this. They will acquire more responsibility tailored to their situation and importantly will have vastly larger amounts of money to spend as needed (with good checks and balances kept on what transpires).

Just think about the support that could be given and projects that could be set up to help the rice farmers to grow rice properly to successfully compete with India, Vietnam and others. I think that advising the farmers on what crops grow the best and are more productive and profit making (done in a zoning fashion) depending on the climate and soil condition is the only sensible thing that this government ever came up with. Giving them extra money to enable them to follow through with this makes much more sense than throwing money down the drain a la 'great rice scam'.

Other than the direct allocation of regional funds there is a massive agricultural ministry.

Thing is, to be honest, to do good aricultural extension work you need to have a little bit of the socialist about u, and want to embrace things like cooperatives and village funding to gain bargaining power to buy inputs.

Try standing up in a ministry in bangkok and proposing you favour coops and collective bargaining at village level. They will brand u as being further left wing than chairman Mao, and anti Thailand. So nothing moves.

For thailand to have got to the point where all the agricultural land has largely been privatised shows how essentially right wing thai politics and the civil service really is. They have allowed the farmer to get screwed for 70 years whilst the processor has put the central govt in their pocket and set policy to help the companies not the farmers.

[ginjag]

Unfortunately that is not what is being spoken of - using the provincial governors (making them elected) does not make it much better than a centralised system. With a single person controlling the budget, it is no different from the village poo yai that pockets the development money his village garners right now. Decentralisation is good - putting it in the hands of one person is nuts - doping it a province level is mad too, expensive (have to have people employed in each province to execute it) and repetitive (most of Issan will have the same needs, so fair decisions, assuming there are any, would be same, same) - it needs to be regional and democratic (elected local officials from each provinces therein sitting like a mini-parliament with parliamentary checks and balances, and an open forum to allow for public challenging in lieu of a second house).

These are just 'ideas in the making' being bandied about at the moment. I think that they are moving along the right lines but they must make sure that they get the details correct when it comes to devising the reforms to ensure transparency and that everything is properly costed out and justified.

One would think these are the sort of things you would get sorted out before plunging the nation into chaos.

Out of curiosity, if Sutheps "good people" council gets up and decide they need 3 or 4 years instead of 18 months to finish "moving along the right lines" is there anything that anyone can do to oppose them?

Your first sentence, WHO plunged the nation into chaos ???? the simple 2 words----self inflicted.........way before anyone came into opposing them.

[Thai at Heart]

Everyone knows what has to be done to reform the Thai political system to make it more democratic but it is one of those subjects that is prohibited from debate.

The Suthep conference is avoiding the key issues as it just wants to return to the old days when Thai farmers are told not to think, and not permitted to have any say in how the government ruling them is run.

"Having a centralised state and a representative democracy are failures"

Wise words indeed - Thailand is not ready and cannot be trusted with democracy.

Totally agree with all within this article - decentralisation of government agencies in the North/North East and perhaps some provinces in the East will gain immensely from this. They will acquire more responsibility tailored to their situation and importantly will have vastly larger amounts of money to spend as needed (with good checks and balances kept on what transpires).

Just think about the support that could be given and projects that could be set up to help the rice farmers to grow rice properly to successfully compete with India, Vietnam and others. I think that advising the farmers on what crops grow the best and are more productive and profit making (done in a zoning fashion) depending on the climate and soil condition is the only sensible thing that this government ever came up with. Giving them extra money to enable them to follow through with this makes much more sense than throwing money down the drain a la 'great rice scam'.

Unfortunately that is not what is being spoken of - using the provincial governors (making them elected) does not make it much better than a centralised system. With a single person controlling the budget, it is no different from the village poo yai that pockets the development money his village garners right now. Decentralisation is good - putting it in the hands of one person is nuts - doping it a province level is mad too, expensive (have to have people employed in each province to execute it) and repetitive (most of Issan will have the same needs, so fair decisions, assuming there are any, would be same, same) - it needs to be regional and democratic (elected local officials from each provinces therein sitting like a mini-parliament with parliamentary checks and balances, and an open forum to allow for public challenging in lieu of a second house).

These are just 'ideas in the making' being bandied about at the moment. I think that they are moving along the right lines but they must make sure that they get the details correct when it comes to devising the reforms to ensure transparency and that everything is properly costed out and justified.

One would think these are the sort of things you would get sorted out before plunging the nation into chaos.

Out of curiosity, if Sutheps "good people" council gets up and decide they need 3 or 4 years instead of 18 months to finish "moving along the right lines" is there anything that anyone can do to oppose them?

Of course not. They are khon dee and only think for the good of the country.

[Fat Haggis]

Why does vote buying matter so much to Farangs who have no say in Thai Politics or how villages should conduct themselves? That's the way it's been done for decades, what gives you the right to tell a village head in another Country with a completely different culture how they should be running their villages, that have been run like that since before you were a twinkle in your old mans eye ??

I wouldn't dream of coming into your home and telling you how you should arrange your home, or how your partner should be cooking !!!

Suddenly all the graft, corruption, public funds skimming and bs seems ok !

I never said corruption was okay, but you think that Thai's are the only ones aiding and abetting corruption within Thailand? Again I asked why VOTE BUYING was such a big deal to Farangs who cannot influence Thai Politics and don't even have a say.. and what gives them the right to try and impose their views and opinions on a huge cultural difference race??

Are we going to see Farangs now going all over Issan and the North East like Jehova's Witnesse's and telling the village Elders they've been doing it all wrong????

Good luck with that one, let me know when you're up in the Korat area preaching your version of politics and how it should be done and I'll buy you a beer

As always the answer to the puerile question (one step away from "if you don't like it go home") is, that many of us have lived here a long time, have Thai families (even extended ones) - therefore politics in this country is important to us - in the same way it was important to slaves and women before they could vote or influence it in any real way - because it affects us and our loved ones. Get it yet!

Just because something has been done for a long time (less than 100 years!), does not mean that it should not be changed - and often the most grotesque things carried out by a state (such as slavery, ethnic cleansing, mass murder of its own citizens) required foreign pressure to make a change, at least to wake up the impacted to allow them to see that it does not have to be that way!

Vote buying is undemocratic and it spoils the democratic process - it should be very important to the red crowd really as they have consistently hung on to the notion that being voted in as the be all and end all of democracy (ignoring the other precept therein) - and when even that small part of democracy is corrupted, where does that leave the plight of the people they supposedly speak for in their millions (and if they do so - why the need to buy votes anyway?).

BTW the "guest rearranging furniture" metaphor has been done to death here and is far from an accurate representation of those of us with Thai families, jobs, pay taxes etc - more like paying to stay in an apartment owned by your brother-in-law and opting to replace his old non-functioning furniture with new and better quality stuff, that you will leave behind for him to make use of after you leave.

I hear you on a lot of what you're saying, but it took a civil war in the US to end slavery. The Foreign pressure you also talk of was countries, and their leadership, not a few expats, and many of these places decades later haven't really fared much better, especially the African ones.. I do however agree with you that there's a need to highlight a much needed change, but that's got to come from your Thai families, two of the biggest issues that expats have in foreign countries that they'd like to be able to influence but generally can't are Politics and Religion. You can jump up and down and demand change as an expat PR or a simple expat with a work visa all you want, even if you have family and extended family too, it's the Thai's themselves who will have the end say regardless.

If you've been here a long time, then you should know historically what goes on, corruption and graft have been endemic in the Middle East, the Near East and the Far East for as long as time itself, in an ideal world there would be no such thing, but the reality is, it's here, and it's always going to be, it's all over the Globe, it's just a fact of life, a crap one , but none the less, it's a hydra you cut of its head and another grows in its place eventually.

Vote buying is undemocratic, so it blocking elections and preventing people from voting. But all over the world you have block voting and Union voting again, it's part and parcel of the way it is, and again, if you've been here a long time, you'll have known this, and why hasn't it been stopped decades ago? Do I agree with it? Hell No, I'm a one vote per person guy.. Block voting and vote buying should be binned, but again, you should also know that if a poor villager is handed money to put a tick in a box, are they likely to refuse??

I do like the brother in law analogy, kind of sounds much better, but you have to know your brother in law to be able to do that, can you really say you know how all the Issan Red's think and behave and act? And it also means you've got a relationship to start with, and again, can you say that many of the yellow expats have an understanding and a bit of care about the people from Issan and the North East?? Doesn't seem to be the case with a considerable amount of the anti Government TVF members

Do you know me well enough to sway my opinions with a view to converting me over to the way you see things? That IS the challenge, convincing the Thai's who have done it one way for as long as they can remember, it's not easy when you're long in the tooth and set in your ways, but it can be done, and in this case it HAS to be done.

Great post though, thumbs up from me

[BlueNoseCodger]

Be good to know which 10 to 15 provinces the good professor feels are good to go. I suspect they are ones in which they are sure that their candidate will win, and where they have the requisite"good people" in place to run things in a "peoples council".

I'll bet that the local consultations will be, um, let us say, geographically specific. Can't see Suthep rocking up in Chiang Rai to consult with the locals about his new style of government, at least not without a couple of regiments of infantry in support!

As an afterthought, is it not amazing to find the Dean of a Faculty of Political Science from a leading university so enthusiastically endorsing replacing a democracy (however flawed and nascent) with a corporatist (think Mussolini) dictatorship?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thank you, after reading your amazing comment I now understand why Yingluck does not visit the south to "meet and greet" with her people. They just don't like her down there.

We do like her down here. She's popular, bar a few nutters who watch Bluesky for their news and the mafia like local politicians.

Yeh, the election result doesn't reflect that, but you can see from the way the elections were not run, that it's not honest and fair down here. If you decentralize the administration it simply lets the mafia down here hold onto power longer. A sort of Sicily or Naples situation.

At the core of the problem down here is the failure to run clean elections, not some sort of fundamental idiological disagreement that just happens to have a geographical basis!

[Added], they're just people here, one teacher at my school is a BlueSky nutter, but the rest are moderates, some like Yingluk, some like Abhsiit, it's not the polarized society claimed in propaganda.

Edited March 16, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[SICHONSTEVE]

Be good to know which 10 to 15 provinces the good professor feels are good to go. I suspect they are ones in which they are sure that their candidate will win, and where they have the requisite"good people" in place to run things in a "peoples council".

I'll bet that the local consultations will be, um, let us say, geographically specific. Can't see Suthep rocking up in Chiang Rai to consult with the locals about his new style of government, at least not without a couple of regiments of infantry in support!

As an afterthought, is it not amazing to find the Dean of a Faculty of Political Science from a leading university so enthusiastically endorsing replacing a democracy (however flawed and nascent) with a corporatist (think Mussolini) dictatorship?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thank you, after reading your amazing comment I now understand why Yingluck does not visit the south to "meet and greet" with her people. They just don't like her down there.

We do like her down here. She's popular, bar a few nutters who watch Bluesky for their news and the mafia like local politicians.

Yeh, the election result doesn't reflect that, but you can see from the way the elections were not run, that it's not honest and fair down here. If you decentralize the administration it simply lets the mafia down here hold onto power longer. A sort of Sicily or Naples situation.

At the core of the problem down here is the failure to run clean elections, not some sort of fundamental idiological disagreement that just happens to have a geographical basis!

[Added], they're just people here, one teacher at my school is a BlueSky nutter, but the rest are moderates, some like Yingluk, some like Abhsiit, it's not the polarized society claimed in propaganda.

I can assure you of one thing - she is HATED down here by everyone apart from some motorcycle taxi drivers and fruit sellers!!!!

Where do you live? It can't be in the South as if it was you wouldn't come out with something so stupid and far from the truth!!

[wolf5370]

One would think these are the sort of things you would get sorted out before plunging the nation into chaos.

Out of curiosity, if Sutheps "good people" council gets up and decide they need 3 or 4 years instead of 18 months to finish "moving along the right lines" is there anything that anyone can do to oppose them?

As officially a non-elected/appointed parliament cannot currently be set up with non-MPs, one would assume (yes assume - I know) that a special temporary amendment to the constitution would have to be made, giving such powers for a limited time frame. After which point their mandate would naturally dissolve. Of course it has not been easy to always remove people from power here once their mandate to govern has expired (as seen with Thaksin during his illegally extended caretaker role - and perhaps now though with a legally extended one, according to the courts at least, and the exceptional circumstances that have caused it). One way I guess would be for the crown to nominate an election date for 2 years in the future - this to cover 18 months (plus modest slippage thereof) and 3 month lead up.

To get more than those 18-24 months (I added the '- 24' bit as contingency) they would need to assume a political basis (party) and stand for election like any other group of people.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Is the army going to crack down on these people for "secession"?

Before you come back with the point that they explicitly stated that they want decentralisation, not separate countries, I would like to point out that the reds did the same thing.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Decentralisation of power to the regions is not secession, it is sensible policy designed to allocate money accordingly so that local decisions can be made as to the best way to spend/invest that money!!!

[HonestQuietBob]

Be good to know which 10 to 15 provinces the good professor feels are good to go. I suspect they are ones in which they are sure that their candidate will win, and where they have the requisite"good people" in place to run things in a "peoples council".

I'll bet that the local consultations will be, um, let us say, geographically specific. Can't see Suthep rocking up in Chiang Rai to consult with the locals about his new style of government, at least not without a couple of regiments of infantry in support!

As an afterthought, is it not amazing to find the Dean of a Faculty of Political Science from a leading university so enthusiastically endorsing replacing a democracy (however flawed and nascent) with a corporatist (think Mussolini) dictatorship?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Thank you, after reading your amazing comment I now understand why Yingluck does not visit the south to "meet and greet" with her people. They just don't like her down there.

We do like her down here. She's popular, bar a few nutters who watch Bluesky for their news and the mafia like local politicians.

Yeh, the election result doesn't reflect that, but you can see from the way the elections were not run, that it's not honest and fair down here. If you decentralize the administration it simply lets the mafia down here hold onto power longer. A sort of Sicily or Naples situation.

At the core of the problem down here is the failure to run clean elections, not some sort of fundamental idiological disagreement that just happens to have a geographical basis!

[Added], they're just people here, one teacher at my school is a BlueSky nutter, but the rest are moderates, some like Yingluk, some like Abhsiit, it's not the polarized society claimed in propaganda.

I can assure you of one thing - she is HATED down here by everyone apart from some motorcycle taxi drivers and fruit sellers!!!!

Where do you live? It can't be in the South as if it was you wouldn't come out with something so stupid and far from the truth!!

I think you'll find that the general population isn't quite as polarised as the elites on each side of this tet-a-tet no matter what the geography

[HonestQuietBob]

"Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom."

Of course they will, sounds democratic to me .

After reading many of your posts, and having a very good idea of the existing form of democracy you personally support, which is basically no democracy at all. You are not really the person to comment on what is or isn't democratically sounding.

If you had any idea of the true principles of democracy rather than the red, communist, dictatorial and corrupted version... People may accept your posts in a broader sense and not just being supported by the insane red camp on here.

And just who is the person to comment on what is or isn't democracy?

"You know what is kind of funny. The PDRC argue that sovereign power belongs to the people, but when the people elect representatives and those representative want to change to a fully elected Senate they are not allowed to. However, the argument by the PDRC is that they represent the people and hence they can choose the government. The People’s Assembly idea is just delusional".

Bangkokpundit

[ThailandNoob]

Is the army going to crack down on these people for "secession"?

Before you come back with the point that they explicitly stated that they want decentralisation, not separate countries, I would like to point out that the reds did the same thing.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Decentralisation of power to the regions is not secession, it is sensible policy designed to allocate money accordingly so that local decisions can be made as to the best way to spend/invest that money!!!

The Red Shirts said that they also just wanted decentralisation (what they may do if their demands are ignored is another topic).

And for once I actually agree with you on something. Thailand desperately needs decentralisation to avoid civil war (the difference between mainstream ideologies in the North and the South is too stark for them to coexist peacefully in a centralised state).

But I hardly see why it needs 18 months under an unelected "People's Council" to do this. Why can't Thailand first just finish the elections so the country can get out of limbo? After this, Pheu Thai, the UDD, the Democrats and the PDRC (plus whoever wants to come) meet and hammer out proposals for decentralisation. This shouldn't be as hard as it sounds since it has support in both camps (if only because they want to get away from each other). Finally the country can have a series of referendums. If the proposals are well thought out, then they would probably pass, since both sides are talking about the same thing. If not, then the group can revise the proposals and try again.

Once this is done, the North can vote for their area to be run by Skype, and the South can be run by unelected People's Councils (if that is what people there really want).

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[NCFC]

Of far greater import is the need to amend the current laws relating to defamation. Until a person is able to cite an incident of corruption without fearing the threat of a defamation suit being lodged by the corrupt person, nothing can change.

Imagine a "people's council" member obtaining information about the elected local governor's corruption..... as the law currently stands, making such information public would invite a defamation claim by the governor, which would succeed irrespective of the truth or otherwise of the information.

Until there is a cultural and social climate in Thailand for The Truth to prevail, rather than emphasis on the protection of corrupt individuals, any steps to reduce corruption are futile.

yes indeed and to that list you can add the lifting of immunity from prosecution for sitting MPs. Everybody must be equal before the law.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[wolf5370]

"Though no more than 300 people were present at the forum held in the Lumpini Park's Youth Centre, the PDRC is also eliciting views online and says it will later hold consultations with people across the Kingdom."

Of course they will, sounds democratic to me .

After reading many of your posts, and having a very good idea of the existing form of democracy you personally support, which is basically no democracy at all. You are not really the person to comment on what is or isn't democratically sounding.

If you had any idea of the true principles of democracy rather than the red, communist, dictatorial and corrupted version... People may accept your posts in a broader sense and not just being supported by the insane red camp on here.

And just who is the person to comment on what is or isn't democracy?

"You know what is kind of funny. The PDRC argue that sovereign power belongs to the people, but when the people elect representatives and those representative want to change to a fully elected Senate they are not allowed to. However, the argument by the PDRC is that they represent the people and hence they can choose the government. The People’s Assembly idea is just delusional".

Bangkokpundit

Quoting the Bangkok Pundit does little to forward your argument - indeed just the opposite! The PDRC was nothing to do with the Senate Bill - it started out as the Anti-Amnesty Protests - and morphed (when Suthep jumped aboard) into the anti-Shin (and now PDRC) protests. The Senate Bill was already set top go through parliament until the Government tacked on the amendment to allow siblings of elected officials to stand for Senatorial Seats - a clear intention to allow nepotism and control of the second house - it was that which caused the bill to fail (and the legal irregularities of trying to pass it!) and not the elected/appointed argument.

His argument as quoted by you, is that the concept of a People's Assembly is delusional [sic] because the CC ruled against the legality of a bill that had been amended to make a sensible bill into one that was dangerous, short-sighted and against all previous agreement - how does one thing point to the other, they are totally unrelated.

By the way - who is the Bangkok Pundit to comment on democracy either? just some overtly biased blogger or nil repute!

[wolf5370]

Is the army going to crack down on these people for "secession"?

Before you come back with the point that they explicitly stated that they want decentralisation, not separate countries, I would like to point out that the reds did the same thing.

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Decentralisation of power to the regions is not secession, it is sensible policy designed to allocate money accordingly so that local decisions can be made as to the best way to spend/invest that money!!!

The Red Shirts said that they also just wanted decentralisation (what they may do if their demands are ignored is another topic).

And for once I actually agree with you on something. Thailand desperately needs decentralisation to avoid civil war (the difference between mainstream ideologies in the North and the South is too stark for them to coexist peacefully in a centralised state).

But I hardly see why it needs 18 months under an unelected "People's Council" to do this. Why can't Thailand first just finish the elections so the country can get out of limbo? After this, Pheu Thai, the UDD, the Democrats and the PDRC (plus whoever wants to come) meet and hammer out proposals for decentralisation. This shouldn't be as hard as it sounds since it has support in both camps (if only because they want to get away from each other). Finally the country can have a series of referendums. If the proposals are well thought out, then they would probably pass, since both sides are talking about the same thing. If not, then the group can revise the proposals and try again.

Once this is done, the North can vote for their area to be run by Skype, and the South can be run by unelected People's Councils (if that is what people there really want).

Sent from my IS11T using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Putting aside for the moment that the Red Leadership only changed to "decentralisation" after warnings from the army that secession would be dealt with harshly - and complaints being lodged with the police - there needs to be a forum where such change can take place. Neither side will trust the other to form an interim government now - and frankly the PTP have shown that they can not be trusted with policy making and following the rules whilst in government (not saying the Dems or anyone else would either). This leaves an independent think tank to bring in such changes - and we are not just talking about devolution/decentralisation, but anti-corruption, new/firmer/precise election law, house make up (Senate in particular), Military promotion and powers, police reform, judicial reform, budgeting, taxes (national and local), governorship system, constitutional reform, and so on - an awful lot in real terms.

No one is going to trust referendums any more than they do elections - first move is to start with a clean sheet without the vested interests controlling what that sheet looks like.

The Reds are never going to trust Suthep's picks any more than the Dems would trust Thida's etc. So, I would like to see Suthep's general plan put into action (I think it is the only way to go now - anything else, at best, stores it all up for the next time around - the Reds started it all in 2010 (or perhaps to a lesser extent the PAD with the airport a few years before that) and the PDRC have followed suit - the genie is out of that little bottle ) - but with a non-partisan experts list put together by a joint cross-party group consisting of the Government, PDRC, Red Shirt Leadership, Dems, etc in equal number - maybe each making their own fixed length list in the dark, cross referencing the lists to see if there are any cross over people - and then with the rest, taking turns to cut a name. Until the 300 or whatever makes sense. Might still end up with some ringers, but they should be stymied by their opposite number - and guidelines as to qualifications should see that even they still contribute positively.

Put in a emergency, special amendment to the constitution for a fixed term governance to be dissolved under a forward dated resolution from the crown to dissolve after 20 months and election after 24 months.