95.5 percent of Crimeans vote for joining Russia

[Jingthing]

Update -- Russian dictator Putin's invaders in Crimea have now killed a Ukrainian soldier just holding his ground on Ukrainian soil in Crimea.

What happens now to the Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea?

What happens to the 25 percent ethnic Ukrainians and minority Tatars?

Ukraine does not recognize this land grab.

Is there a peaceful solution short of total surrender to the Russian invaders?

Yes we all know Ukraine is no military match for "mighty" Russia but that doesn't necessarily mean there still won't be armed conflict.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/18/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Yatsenyuk warned the political standoff was careening toward war, while interim President Oleksandr Turchynov told reporters that Putin is "mimicking the fascists of the last century" by annexing Crimea.

...

Vladislav Seleznyov, spokesman for Ukraine's Defense Ministry, told CNN that at least one Ukrainian officer had been killed and another wounded in an assault on a base by "armed people in masks" near the regional capital, Simferopol

Edited March 18, 2014 by Jingthing

[englishoak]

Did i mention Ben was a facsist etc etc ? no i dont think I did I said propaganda.

Actually the Ukrainian movement in power IS right wing neo nazi fascist in part The nationalist, right-wing Svoboda for one thing... Lets have a look at whos in positions there atm shall we ?

Ihor Tenyukh, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda party, now Minister of Defense.

Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social National Party, which later changed its name to Svoboda. He is the new top commander of the National Defense and Security Council.

Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector neo-Nazi commander who said “our revival begins with our Maidan,” is now second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council (covering the military, police, courts and intelligence apparatus)

Oleksandr Sych, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, is one of three Vice Prime Ministers.

Oleg Makhnitsky, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, now Prosecutor-General (Attorney General),

Notice are in charge of the guns and stuff here btw

It might not be only about Nazis but someone has been helping them along and its not Russia remember who is supporting them here ... yup thats right the US and the EU. funny that.

Call me a cynic but once again fascism is being supported and funded by supposedly democratic countries. This isnt the first time nor will it be the last.

End of the day Crimea holds the Russian fleet and only a fool would expect it to be allowed to fall under EU control.

PS imo this is what happens when you destabilise a country, its neighbours get all jittery.

Edited March 18, 2014 by englishoak

[Jingthing]

Did i mention Ben was a facsist etc etc ? no i dont think I did I said propaganda.

Actually the Ukrainian movement in power IS right wing neo nazi fascist in part The nationalist, right-wing Svoboda for one thing... Lets have a look at whos in positions there atm shall we ?

Ihor Tenyukh, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda party, now Minister of Defense.

Andriy Parubiy, co-founder of the fascist Social National Party, which later changed its name to Svoboda. He is the new top commander of the National Defense and Security Council.

Dmytro Yarosh, Right Sector neo-Nazi commander who said “our revival begins with our Maidan,” is now second-in-command of the National Defense and Security Council (covering the military, police, courts and intelligence apparatus)

Oleksandr Sych, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, is one of three Vice Prime Ministers.

Oleg Makhnitsky, member of neo-Nazi Svoboda, now Prosecutor-General (Attorney General),

Notice are in charge of the guns and stuff here btw

It might not be only about Nazis but someone has been helping them along and its not Russia remember who is supporting them here ... yup thats right the US and the EU. funny that.

Call me a cynic but once again fascism is being supported and funded by supposedly democratic countries. This isnt the first time nor will it be the last.

End of the day Crimea holds the Russian fleet and only a fool would expect it to be allowed to fall under EU control.

PS imo this is what happens when you destabilise a country, its neighbours get all jittery.

It's MUCH more complicated than you (or Putin) paint it.

Putin uses the Nazi thing as an excuse to invade, yet curiously, there are more neo-Nazis in Russia than any other country on the planet and they have been activated in recent times without pushback from Putin in a wave of violent attacks on Russia's gay people.

Nevertheless, the political and ideological make-up of Ukraine's opposition-turned-government is far more complex and nuanced, and includes a practicing Jewish businessman and a campaigning Muslim journalist.

In the Crimea, meanwhile, where Putin says his army is protecting not only ethnic Russians but also minorities like Jews who are at risk from a fascist takeover, the Jewish community disagrees.

In a statement released Friday, Rabbi Michael Kapustin of the Ner Tamid Reform synagogue in Simferopol, said: “The city is occupied by Russians. Apparently Russians intend to take over the Crimea and make it a part of Russia,” Kapustin said. ”If this were the case I would leave the country. In this case, I will leave this country since I want to live in democratic Ukraine.”

From neo-Nazis, to a Jewish oligarch, from a heavyweight boxer to an Afghan immigrant, here are some of the more surprising key figures who are now in charge of guiding Ukraine into an uncertain future.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/03/ukraine-government_n_4889063.html

Edited March 18, 2014 by Jingthing

[folium]

Crimea voted and they have the right to choose, its not a question of the Crimea belonging to Russia so much as if thats what the people of Crimea choose then so be it. Ukraine bankrupted itself already it is not fit to manage Crimea responsibly, the current political situation in Ukraine is also highly controversial and being managed by the US and EU for its own agenda that is clear.

The west and EU cannot afford another bankrupt country such as the Ukraine anyway, it is no different to the cuba crisis with the US as far as Russia is concerned, in fact its right on the land border and worse, this is a serious threat to its security and it should not for one moment be a surprise it is securing its black sea port.

The US UK etc didnt bother with proper channels re Iraq, the west has gone in to many places uninvited many times, its also recognised many regime changes by dictators and carved up countries for its own pleasure. The UN has nothing to say regarding Russia's offer to Crimea.

The legality of things has nothing to do with anything, legality is only observed when it suits the UN nations otherwise members do what they want anyway..... double standards by the UK US EU etc

Far as sanctions are concerned it will blow right back in the US and EUs faces. Russia holds a LOT of cards, gas oil etc.... now what do you suppose would happen if Russia declared that their oil can now be paid for in anything other than the US dollar or raise prices of gas to the EU ?? Bye bye US economy bye bye EU recovery.

There wont be any military action as neither side are that stupid and there will be a lot of posturing on the wests part no doubt but end of the day there is little they can do and the Ukraine is not important enough to escalate the crisis much further.

Quite agree..any group has the right to self-determination, but only in conjunction with an agreement with the government of that country. See S.Sudan or Scotland for more details.

Why did Russia need to invade Crimea? Where was the threat to the Russian speakers in Crimea?

How is Russia any better qualified than Ukraine to be governing Crimea? Is Russia some kind of workers' paradise that majors on freedom of speech and expression, that is free from corruption and cronyism? How many media outlets are not state controlled or influenced in Russia?

I spent some time in amongst Soviet troops in East Germany in 1989/90, who were embittered and angered by their Soviet hierarchy and the lies they had been peddled. The collapse of the Soviet Union was just the exposure of the classic "Potemkin house", all shell and no heart. Putin and his siloviki gang will ultimately be rumbled for the self-serving autocrats that they are. In the meantime many people, both Russian and other, will have to suffer to ensure that these petty tyrants live a life they never dreamed possible. The most extraordinary thing about the Russian people is how they have been led/controlled by such second-rate thieves for centuries and to have allowed such scum to lead them. If you have any belief in karma, one day there will be one serious reckoning and the common man in Russia might possibly gain the tiniest foothold on power if they are ever allowed a say in how they are governed.

Russia will never be a world power again as it has nothing to offer the world today except hydrocarbons and intimidation. Schoolyard bullies just highlight their own inadequacies through their behaviour, and the more such behaviour is exhibited the more irrelevant they become.

Crimea will be the classic Pyrrhic victory....short term triumph in an inconsequential place for major long term strategic loss. But what does Putin and his siloviki crew care for the future as long as their nests are amply feathered and all opposition neutralised or exiled? Lucky Russia, a truly aspirational place.

[folium]

And you know better because....?

Because unlike you, I do not make or manipulate history??

Because unlike you , I speak fluent Russian to see both sides??

Because unlike you I respect choice of people ???

Feel free to quote any history that has been manipulated or manufactured, or is the problem that some people cannot cope with reasoned arguments as opposed to intimidatory bluster?

"Seeing both sides" requires more than an ability to speak irrelevant global languages, it requires a mindset able to deal with non-spoonfed opinions and bias.

Russia, the hub of respecting the "choice of people"....since when?

Glib responses and crass generalizations have never passed muster for genuine arguments. Perhaps bluster and bluff are all that is on offer.

So I repeat my question... why do you think you know better?

[englishoak]

Crimea voted and they have the right to choose, its not a question of the Crimea belonging to Russia so much as if thats what the people of Crimea choose then so be it. Ukraine bankrupted itself already it is not fit to manage Crimea responsibly, the current political situation in Ukraine is also highly controversial and being managed by the US and EU for its own agenda that is clear.

The west and EU cannot afford another bankrupt country such as the Ukraine anyway, it is no different to the cuba crisis with the US as far as Russia is concerned, in fact its right on the land border and worse, this is a serious threat to its security and it should not for one moment be a surprise it is securing its black sea port.

The US UK etc didnt bother with proper channels re Iraq, the west has gone in to many places uninvited many times, its also recognised many regime changes by dictators and carved up countries for its own pleasure. The UN has nothing to say regarding Russia's offer to Crimea.

The legality of things has nothing to do with anything, legality is only observed when it suits the UN nations otherwise members do what they want anyway..... double standards by the UK US EU etc

Far as sanctions are concerned it will blow right back in the US and EUs faces. Russia holds a LOT of cards, gas oil etc.... now what do you suppose would happen if Russia declared that their oil can now be paid for in anything other than the US dollar or raise prices of gas to the EU ?? Bye bye US economy bye bye EU recovery.

There wont be any military action as neither side are that stupid and there will be a lot of posturing on the wests part no doubt but end of the day there is little they can do and the Ukraine is not important enough to escalate the crisis much further.

Quite agree..any group has the right to self-determination, but only in conjunction with an agreement with the government of that country. See S.Sudan or Scotland for more details.

Why did Russia need to invade Crimea? Where was the threat to the Russian speakers in Crimea?

How is Russia any better qualified than Ukraine to be governing Crimea? Is Russia some kind of workers' paradise that majors on freedom of speech and expression, that is free from corruption and cronyism? How many media outlets are not state controlled or influenced in Russia?

I spent some time in amongst Soviet troops in East Germany in 1989/90, who were embittered and angered by their Soviet hierarchy and the lies they had been peddled. The collapse of the Soviet Union was just the exposure of the classic "Potemkin house", all shell and no heart. Putin and his siloviki gang will ultimately be rumbled for the self-serving autocrats that they are. In the meantime many people, both Russian and other, will have to suffer to ensure that these petty tyrants live a life they never dreamed possible. The most extraordinary thing about the Russian people is how they have been led/controlled by such second-rate thieves for centuries and to have allowed such scum to lead them. If you have any belief in karma, one day there will be one serious reckoning and the common man in Russia might possibly gain the tiniest foothold on power if they are ever allowed a say in how they are governed.

Russia will never be a world power again as it has nothing to offer the world today except hydrocarbons and intimidation. Schoolyard bullies just highlight their own inadequacies through their behaviour, and the more such behaviour is exhibited the more irrelevant they become.

Crimea will be the classic Pyrrhic victory....short term triumph in an inconsequential place for major long term strategic loss. But what does Putin and his siloviki crew care for the future as long as their nests are amply feathered and all opposition neutralised or exiled? Lucky Russia, a truly aspirational place.

To my mind its a an issue of national security for Russia along with its black sea fleet...

America went nuts about cuba you think Russia was going to let their fleet local fall under EU/US control ? since the Ukraine is bankrupt and cannot rub two whatever together and Russia has the means, id say it is can probably govern more effectively at least in the financial sense.

I am absolutely no fan of Putin or the system inplace in Russia but I am saying it is no business of the west to go about claiming what is acceptable and what is not when we do it at the point of a gun and make up the rules to suit ourselves all the time.

In other words the EU and the US should keep their meddling and destabilising snouts out of it.

Far as history is concerned read up on the history of the Crimea, Britain even had the Crimea war. It has always been of strategic value and it should not be seen as anything but now.

[Jingthing]

I think we all understand why most of the ethnic Russians in Crimea are happy now that Putin has invaded and stolen Crimea from Ukraine, just as the ethnic Germans were happy when Hitler invaded and stole Sutedenland from Czechoslovakia.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Jingthing

[folium]

Crimea voted and they have the right to choose, its not a question of the Crimea belonging to Russia so much as if thats what the people of Crimea choose then so be it. Ukraine bankrupted itself already it is not fit to manage Crimea responsibly, the current political situation in Ukraine is also highly controversial and being managed by the US and EU for its own agenda that is clear.

The west and EU cannot afford another bankrupt country such as the Ukraine anyway, it is no different to the cuba crisis with the US as far as Russia is concerned, in fact its right on the land border and worse, this is a serious threat to its security and it should not for one moment be a surprise it is securing its black sea port.

The US UK etc didnt bother with proper channels re Iraq, the west has gone in to many places uninvited many times, its also recognised many regime changes by dictators and carved up countries for its own pleasure. The UN has nothing to say regarding Russia's offer to Crimea.

The legality of things has nothing to do with anything, legality is only observed when it suits the UN nations otherwise members do what they want anyway..... double standards by the UK US EU etc

Far as sanctions are concerned it will blow right back in the US and EUs faces. Russia holds a LOT of cards, gas oil etc.... now what do you suppose would happen if Russia declared that their oil can now be paid for in anything other than the US dollar or raise prices of gas to the EU ?? Bye bye US economy bye bye EU recovery.

There wont be any military action as neither side are that stupid and there will be a lot of posturing on the wests part no doubt but end of the day there is little they can do and the Ukraine is not important enough to escalate the crisis much further.

Quite agree..any group has the right to self-determination, but only in conjunction with an agreement with the government of that country. See S.Sudan or Scotland for more details.

Why did Russia need to invade Crimea? Where was the threat to the Russian speakers in Crimea?

How is Russia any better qualified than Ukraine to be governing Crimea? Is Russia some kind of workers' paradise that majors on freedom of speech and expression, that is free from corruption and cronyism? How many media outlets are not state controlled or influenced in Russia?

I spent some time in amongst Soviet troops in East Germany in 1989/90, who were embittered and angered by their Soviet hierarchy and the lies they had been peddled. The collapse of the Soviet Union was just the exposure of the classic "Potemkin house", all shell and no heart. Putin and his siloviki gang will ultimately be rumbled for the self-serving autocrats that they are. In the meantime many people, both Russian and other, will have to suffer to ensure that these petty tyrants live a life they never dreamed possible. The most extraordinary thing about the Russian people is how they have been led/controlled by such second-rate thieves for centuries and to have allowed such scum to lead them. If you have any belief in karma, one day there will be one serious reckoning and the common man in Russia might possibly gain the tiniest foothold on power if they are ever allowed a say in how they are governed.

Russia will never be a world power again as it has nothing to offer the world today except hydrocarbons and intimidation. Schoolyard bullies just highlight their own inadequacies through their behaviour, and the more such behaviour is exhibited the more irrelevant they become.

Crimea will be the classic Pyrrhic victory....short term triumph in an inconsequential place for major long term strategic loss. But what does Putin and his siloviki crew care for the future as long as their nests are amply feathered and all opposition neutralised or exiled? Lucky Russia, a truly aspirational place.

To my mind its a an issue of national security for Russia along with its black sea fleet...

America went nuts about cuba you think Russia was going to let their fleet local fall under EU/US control ? since the Ukraine is bankrupt and cannot rub two whatever together and Russia has the means, id say it is can probably govern more effectively at least in the financial sense.

I am absolutely no fan of Putin or the system inplace in Russia but I am saying it is no business of the west to go about claiming what is acceptable and what is not when we do it at the point of a gun and make up the rules to suit ourselves all the time.

In other words the EU and the US should keep their meddling and destabilising snouts out of it.

Far as history is concerned read up on the history of the Crimea, Britain even had the Crimea war. It has always been of strategic value and it should not be seen as anything but now.

Personally I am very happy with my grasp of history (how are you on your Alma, Inkerman, Tchernaya, Malakoff and Great Redan, not to mention the campaigns in the Danube, Caucasus, Nobel's mines in the Baltic and even the Pacific theatre?). It seems you may need a lesson in geography.

Here's a simple couple of questions...

Is Sevastopol the only Black Sea port that Russia has access to? Why should the decrepit Black Sea Fleet fall under EU/US control?

When there was some doubt that the Ukrainian government could not be strong-armed into extending the lease on Sevastopol, what did the Russian government consider as alternatives? Why was Abkhazia such an important place to occupy?

If you don't like the concept of power being exercised at the pointy end of a gun, how can you see any merit in Russia's invasion of Crimea?

When does "meddling and destabilising" become appeasement and willful avoidance? Is it right that in excess of 4 million people have died in the DRC because no one give's a proverbial? Should we let tin-pot autocrats reshape the world to fit their odious agendas?

Englishoak? Whatever happened to Heart of Oak? "Yon tyrant, whose rule abject Europe bemoans".....

[folium]

Do you know of any times when common man wins?

Isn't that exactly what the Soviet Union/Communism promised? Didn't they deliver for the common man? Has Putin?

Why do not you ask the common man in Russia , instead of posing the question on Internet

Sorry I thought you represented the common man in Russia.

But notwithstanding that minor detail, what has the Soviet Union/Russia ever done to actually benefit the common man? Why do so many Russians, with even a modicum of aspiration and enterprise, decide to make their fortunes in the USA? Why do so many oligarchs and siloviki buy property and educate their children in the UK and attempt to shift as much of their ill-gained fortunes out of Russia as they can manage? Please remind us why so many Russian individuals and companies relied on Cyprus to do their laundering banking?

Lucky old Crimea.....what's that old cliche? "beware what you wish for"....

[englishoak]

Crimea voted and they have the right to choose, its not a question of the Crimea belonging to Russia so much as if thats what the people of Crimea choose then so be it. Ukraine bankrupted itself already it is not fit to manage Crimea responsibly, the current political situation in Ukraine is also highly controversial and being managed by the US and EU for its own agenda that is clear.

The west and EU cannot afford another bankrupt country such as the Ukraine anyway, it is no different to the cuba crisis with the US as far as Russia is concerned, in fact its right on the land border and worse, this is a serious threat to its security and it should not for one moment be a surprise it is securing its black sea port.

The US UK etc didnt bother with proper channels re Iraq, the west has gone in to many places uninvited many times, its also recognised many regime changes by dictators and carved up countries for its own pleasure. The UN has nothing to say regarding Russia's offer to Crimea.

The legality of things has nothing to do with anything, legality is only observed when it suits the UN nations otherwise members do what they want anyway..... double standards by the UK US EU etc

Far as sanctions are concerned it will blow right back in the US and EUs faces. Russia holds a LOT of cards, gas oil etc.... now what do you suppose would happen if Russia declared that their oil can now be paid for in anything other than the US dollar or raise prices of gas to the EU ?? Bye bye US economy bye bye EU recovery.

There wont be any military action as neither side are that stupid and there will be a lot of posturing on the wests part no doubt but end of the day there is little they can do and the Ukraine is not important enough to escalate the crisis much further.

Quite agree..any group has the right to self-determination, but only in conjunction with an agreement with the government of that country. See S.Sudan or Scotland for more details.

Why did Russia need to invade Crimea? Where was the threat to the Russian speakers in Crimea?

How is Russia any better qualified than Ukraine to be governing Crimea? Is Russia some kind of workers' paradise that majors on freedom of speech and expression, that is free from corruption and cronyism? How many media outlets are not state controlled or influenced in Russia?

I spent some time in amongst Soviet troops in East Germany in 1989/90, who were embittered and angered by their Soviet hierarchy and the lies they had been peddled. The collapse of the Soviet Union was just the exposure of the classic "Potemkin house", all shell and no heart. Putin and his siloviki gang will ultimately be rumbled for the self-serving autocrats that they are. In the meantime many people, both Russian and other, will have to suffer to ensure that these petty tyrants live a life they never dreamed possible. The most extraordinary thing about the Russian people is how they have been led/controlled by such second-rate thieves for centuries and to have allowed such scum to lead them. If you have any belief in karma, one day there will be one serious reckoning and the common man in Russia might possibly gain the tiniest foothold on power if they are ever allowed a say in how they are governed.

Russia will never be a world power again as it has nothing to offer the world today except hydrocarbons and intimidation. Schoolyard bullies just highlight their own inadequacies through their behaviour, and the more such behaviour is exhibited the more irrelevant they become.

Crimea will be the classic Pyrrhic victory....short term triumph in an inconsequential place for major long term strategic loss. But what does Putin and his siloviki crew care for the future as long as their nests are amply feathered and all opposition neutralised or exiled? Lucky Russia, a truly aspirational place.

To my mind its a an issue of national security for Russia along with its black sea fleet...

America went nuts about cuba you think Russia was going to let their fleet local fall under EU/US control ? since the Ukraine is bankrupt and cannot rub two whatever together and Russia has the means, id say it is can probably govern more effectively at least in the financial sense.

I am absolutely no fan of Putin or the system inplace in Russia but I am saying it is no business of the west to go about claiming what is acceptable and what is not when we do it at the point of a gun and make up the rules to suit ourselves all the time.

In other words the EU and the US should keep their meddling and destabilising snouts out of it.

Far as history is concerned read up on the history of the Crimea, Britain even had the Crimea war. It has always been of strategic value and it should not be seen as anything but now.

Personally I am very happy with my grasp of history (how are you on your Alma, Inkerman, Tchernaya, Malakoff and Great Redan, not to mention the campaigns in the Danube, Caucasus, Nobel's mines in the Baltic and even the Pacific theatre?). It seems you may need a lesson in geography.

Here's a simple couple of questions...

Is Sevastopol the only Black Sea port that Russia has access to? Why should the decrepit Black Sea Fleet fall under EU/US control?

When there was some doubt that the Ukrainian government could not be strong-armed into extending the lease on Sevastopol, what did the Russian government consider as alternatives? Why was Abkhazia such an important place to occupy?

If you don't like the concept of power being exercised at the pointy end of a gun, how can you see any merit in Russia's invasion of Crimea?

When does "meddling and destabilising" become appeasement and willful avoidance? Is it right that in excess of 4 million people have died in the DRC because no one give's a proverbial? Should we let tin-pot autocrats reshape the world to fit their odious agendas?

Englishoak? Whatever happened to Heart of Oak? "Yon tyrant, whose rule abject Europe bemoans".....

I am well aware of various and regional campaigns thanks and certainly need no lesson in geography.

to answer your questions

Until 1954, the port was in Russian territory, had been for near on 300 years but then it was transferred to Ukraine for administrative reasons. Why cannot it be returned to Russia for administrative reasons ? I see no real problem with this since the majority has overwhelmingly voted for it furthermore why would Russia wish to go to the expense of moving its base when it dosnt have to ? Crimea dosnt in fact belong to the Ukraine and never really has been asked what it wanted... before or after occupation it was still asked, people were not forced to vote they wernt marched to the polls at gunpoint, from what im reading the vote wasnt rigged and the response was very very clear as to its choice. Heres the rub, the people got a voice and they made it loud and clear and it was not in favour of the EU or US .... thats the slap in the face and thats why there is all the blustering becuase they knew full well it would be a vote against the EU and US and makes them look not so popular when people are given a freedom to vote after all.. no one likes to be kicked in the teeth and the west just got a taste of it.

Abkhazia has nothing to do with the Crimea crisis your point is ?

I dont like power being exercised at the pointy end of the gun but im not being a hypocrite and pretending its ok for us to do so yet make a huge thing about Russia in the Crimea. I didnt say there is merit in it but can clearly see the reasoning behind it.

Actually I dont believe democracy should be covertly or forcefully engineered and imposed on nations ( which it is ) if they dont want it, what the heck has the DRC got to do with it ? there are people dying all over the planet all the time. Don't give me the we care line because as nations we dont, those that are championed are picked very carefully the rest left to rot or die. quit pro quo

We let much more than tin pot autocrats ruin counties, we usually train. support and give them all manner of help to do it.

I spent years working in AI there is not one innocent nation and know very well that everything politically is about quit pro quo, whats in it for us. that is usually the only way things get done, humanitarian or otherwise when theres some kind of payoff. Why on earth would we think this is any different from the perspective of both sides ? I'm simply saying Russia is not the only evil boogy man here and it has far more to be concerned about than the US or EU where national security is concerned. Far as national security is concerned we know full well how aggressive and obsessive the US is are you really trying to say Russia is wrong to do what the US does all over the world let alone at its borders... still not had an answer re the cuban crisis and US reaction there.

Finally you have no idea what my name stands for but ill tell you now it has nothing to do with a silly imperialistic song like heart of oak, and I dont get all choked up about flags or nationalism either.

Edited March 18, 2014 by englishoak

[benalibina]

@englishoak.

Crimea is a part of Ukraine. Whether given with support of its populace or not in 1954. To transfer it back via referendum it should be discussed by the 2 respective governments. This has not happened. The russians have played it clever. Its clear that the majority of people are russians in Crimea and therefore voted to be independent. Power of Russia and fear of Ukraine to not escalate it made it how it is now. IMO the will of the majority of people in Crimea has served. But at which cost for the big minority there of Ukranians and Crim Tartars. Add mixed marriages to that as well.

Its all done on the wrong way. Power, greeds, revenge and face playing a big part in it. It sets a bad precedent for the future.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

[englishoak]

The precedent was set in kosovo so it was set long ago, there would have been no referendum without occupation. There will always be a loser and you cant keep all of the people happy all of the time. The turnout was about 83% the for joining was 97% Crimea is now has recognition of a recognised nation.

Yes it may have been done outside of the wishes of some UN members but there would have never been a vote if it were left to Ukraine or the EU done it is and without violence. The vote was a landslide I see no grounds for other nations to complain AT ALL.

This does give rise to the question what are some nations afraid of asking its people ? the EU makes it very clear joining would not leave any withdrawal possible in future, to date not one country in the EU has held a vote of in or out since joining although the populations of many would vote out if asked and indeed want out quite badly. Same as the US some of its states want out im sure yet arnt allowed a choice. The UK is giving Scotland an option and I also look forward to a choice for the UK on Europe in the future.

In this instance The people of Crimea were given the military protection and option to vote. Does it matter how the vote was given ? the point is it was made possible to happen and it was a free and fair referendum with 97% for it out of 83% turnout.... Had Russia not given them the option under its protection to do so I do not think they would have ever been asked by either Ukraine or the EU for one second

If allowing people a freedom to vote under military protection whilst its being done fairly and openly monitored that in itself is not bad. This was decisive bloodless (relatively ) swift and open with a conclusive result. I dont see grounds for the international community to complain one bit with a 97% result.

So I say congratulations to the people of Crimea. I hope they will never come to regret it like so many in the EU are doing now.

[Jay Sata]

Excellent assessments of the situation if I may say so English Oak.

I admire Putin for the way he stands up to the USA who desire to rule the planet.

[benalibina]

The precedent was set in kosovo so it was set long ago, there would have been no referendum without occupation. There will always be a loser and you cant keep all of the people happy all of the time. The turnout was about 83% the for joining was 97% Crimea is now has recognition of a recognised nation.

Yes it may have been done outside of the wishes of some UN members but there would have never been a vote if it were left to Ukraine or the EU done it is and without violence. The vote was a landslide I see no grounds for other nations to complain AT ALL.

This does give rise to the question what are some nations afraid of asking its people ? the EU makes it very clear joining would not leave any withdrawal possible in future, to date not one country in the EU has held a vote of in or out since joining although the populations of many would vote out if asked and indeed want out quite badly. Same as the US some of its states want out im sure yet arnt allowed a choice. The UK is giving Scotland an option and I also look forward to a choice for the UK on Europe in the future.

In this instance The people of Crimea were given the military protection and option to vote. Does it matter how the vote was given ? the point is it was made possible to happen and it was a free and fair referendum with 97% for it out of 83% turnout.... Had Russia not given them the option under its protection to do so I do not think they would have ever been asked by either Ukraine or the EU for one second

If allowing people a freedom to vote under military protection whilst its being done fairly and openly monitored that in itself is not bad. This was decisive bloodless (relatively ) swift and open with a conclusive result. I dont see grounds for the international community to complain one bit with a 97% result.

So I say congratulations to the people of Crimea. I hope they will never come to regret it like so many in the EU are doing now.

Well.....taking matters in your own hand is ok by you. It should have all been done on an other way. Result is what matters only to you. Would not want to play cards with you. You are lacking morals IMO. No offense meant.

[englishoak]

None taken but you should not however be judging my personal morals, we are talking about nations and international rules not people perse. Tell me, who chooses what rules to play by and then when some rule makers break them who has the right to point a finger when another does the same ? where do the rules not apply when some do as they wish and flaunt international law with impunity yet others may not ? we see this all the time in the UN security council with vetoes and collaborations designed to derail any new ruling..... ill just pick up one ... Israel and the US

I do hope your aware how immoral or hypocritical nations are. Where are the morals of say the US regarding building a world surveillance system to gather data on every one of us.. thats us, the world...? who gave them the right ? where are the morals in that ? or the Iraq invasion and the WMD that never existed or Afghanistan over what 9/11, really ? that was based on lies and not morals, protecting the poppy fields with troops yet heroine and opium is illegal nearly everywhere and addiction is killing and ruining millions where are the morals in this ? human trafficking is illegal yet government forces right here take part wilfully. Arms dealing by nations to all manner of dictators and nefarious regimes to use on their own populous with the selling nations knowledge, where are the morals in this ? keeping people in incarceration without trial for years, torture is that moral ? jailing people that tell the truth and exposing lies or government agencies breaking the law not only of its own country but internationally is that moral ? how about walling in a people and displacing them or committing atrocities and crimes against humanity on them even after your own were persecuted and had your very country formed because of that persecution ... doing the same thing to others yet still complaining about having been the victim ? Is this moral ? should I go on ?

To my knowledge this is the very first time a nation has been protected and given immediately the freedom to vote to have a choice and it will, for a change be honoured, the stick in the throat is its not the choice the US or EU wanted to hear so its not ok . It was in kosovo... double standards no ?

If you play cards then where is the logic in playing morally and to the rules if others consistently break them or simply ignore them when they wish but not another ? To claim to have morals you must stand by them yourself or not complain when others do the same to their benefit. As it turns out this was not the wrong thing to do just the manner ... the kicker is there was no other way it would have ever happened without Russia's intervention.... everyone knows it.they may not have been clamouring but given the opportunity they came out en mass. Pretty clear to everyone that having been afforded the choice they grasped that opportunity with both hands loud and clear.

Isnt your objection rather weak that Russia took the initiative be it breaking the rules and yet gave the people of Crimea a choice that the EU/US would not ? had they troops there do you think they would have for one moment said hey yknow what why dont you decide on your future with either us or Russia. ? I can tell you they would not unless it was in their interest to do so or the vote a foregone conclusion.. Is it right or wrong the people in Crimea were given a choice ? regardless of the manner that is my simple question to you...

Trust me, if im playing cards with someone im totally straight if I know they are and will assume they are until proven they arnt, but with someone who I know for certain only follows the rules when they wish and cheat when they can without a thought then A I will not ever play cards with them if I dont have to but B if I do and I have the opportunity to cheat before they do to win an important hand before they do, knowing they will if they can then you can count on me be being as moral as they ... especially if my own neck is at risk.

Fact is international politics and positioning is like a game of cards where everyone follows some of the rules , most of the time only because they are being watched, unless its an important round and they think they can get away with cheating of breaking them if the benefits outweigh the risk of getting caught or simply making a move and breaking the rules makes such a strong hand that being caught will make little or no difference to the outcome and its worth it.

We are talking about nations and agendas here and there are none that follow all the rules all of the time or even most if they dont have to..nor do I for one moment rate the US or the EU any better in morals than Russia when it comes to the international area game of cards.. there are two rules only there....1 bluff all you can just in case you dont have a winning hand whilst trying to gage your opponents 2 try and make sure you have a winning hand or once sure the other is bluffing or has a weak one and yours is stronger. Then play it.

Edited March 19, 2014 by englishoak

[englishoak]

This is the state of some of the Ukraine MPs at the moment and who both the EU and the US claim even though they are not elected are legitimate state representatives and support them.. right wing neo nazi thugs... no more no less

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKjiVz-eT8A

Still think the Crimea isnt better off where they want to be instead of under that ?

Edited March 19, 2014 by englishoak

[Trembly]

The Crimea has been part of Russia for since a hundred years before Hawaii became part of the US. It was Krushchev (a native of Ukraine) who arbitrarily gifted the strategic peninsula of the Crimea to his homeland when he came to power in the Soviet Union in the 1950's.

It's quite presumptuous - cynical minds night say disingenuous - for the US and the west to assume that anyone had to hold a gun to the Crimean's heads to get them to join Russia. They already had a shooting war at the breakup of the Soviet Union where they narrowly missed independence and instead got autonomy from the Ukraine after 40 years of resentment to Krushchev's decision.

Given the noise that the West made about national self-determination in Kosovo, Sudan, Taiwan and so on it really is a bit off to be changing the tune now.

If I can learn about Crimean history from the internet, so can the CIA.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Trembly

[Jingthing]

This is the state of some of the Ukraine MPs at the moment and who both the EU and the US claim even though they are not elected are legitimate state representatives and support them.. right wing neo nazi thugs... no more no less

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKjiVz-eT8A

Still think the Crimea isnt better off where they want to be instead of under that ?

Yes those are fascist thugs and clearly horrible people doing horrible stupid things, sure thing, as if Russia doesn't have fascist thugs, as if Putin himself is not a fascist thug -- but they are correct that Putin is indeed their military ENEMY now. He has invaded, forced a rushed propaganda "election" with unbelievable North Korean level victory results, and stolen a chunk of their country and all Ukrainians, fascists and not, have every right to fear he will steal MORE of it. Before, RECENTLY, the devious liar Putin said he wasn't interested in Crimea, now he says he isn't interested in dividing the rest of the Ukraine.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[benalibina]

The Crimea has been part of Russia for since a hundred years before Hawaii became part of the US. It was Krushchev (a native of Ukraine) who arbitrarily gifted the strategic peninsula of the Crimea to his homeland when he came to power in the Soviet Union in the 1950's.

It's quite presumptuous - cynical minds night say disingenuous - for the US and the west to assume that anyone had to hold a gun to the Crimean's heads to get them to join Russia. They already had a shooting war at the breakup of the Soviet Union where they narrowly missed independence and instead got autonomy from the Ukraine after 40 years of resentment to Krushchev's decision.

Given the noise that the West made about national self-determination in Kosovo, Sudan, Taiwan and so on it really is a bit off to be changing the tune now.

If I can learn about Crimean history from the internet, so can the CIA.

The HOW is probably the issue. Not the WHAT. Regarding self determination.

[benalibina]

This is the state of some of the Ukraine MPs at the moment and who both the EU and the US claim even though they are not elected are legitimate state representatives and support them.. right wing neo nazi thugs... no more no less

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKjiVz-eT8A

Still think the Crimea isnt better off where they want to be instead of under that ?

Yes those are fascist thugs and clearly horrible people doing horrible stupid things, sure thing, as if Russia doesn't have fascist thugs, as if Putin himself is not a fascist thug -- but they are correct that Putin is indeed their military ENEMY now. He has invaded, forced a rushed propaganda "election" with unbelievable North Korean level victory results, and stolen a chunk of their country and all Ukrainians, fascists and not, have every right to fear he will steal MORE of it. Before, RECENTLY, the devious liar Putin said he wasn't interested in Crimea, now he says he isn't interested in dividing the rest of the Ukraine.

Yeap...to think that Putin is a true democrate and human rights advocate....well....NO ....on the contrary. He is a little narcissistic man who suffers from NPD. But the Crimeans are happy. A man like that against fascist thugs in Ukraine.....god bless them.

[Trembly]

The Crimea has been part of Russia for since a hundred years before Hawaii became part of the US. It was Krushchev (a native of Ukraine) who arbitrarily gifted the strategic peninsula of the Crimea to his homeland when he came to power in the Soviet Union in the 1950's.

It's quite presumptuous - cynical minds night say disingenuous - for the US and the west to assume that anyone had to hold a gun to the Crimean's heads to get them to join Russia. They already had a shooting war at the breakup of the Soviet Union where they narrowly missed independence and instead got autonomy from the Ukraine after 40 years of resentment to Krushchev's decision.

Given the noise that the West made about national self-determination in Kosovo, Sudan, Taiwan and so on it really is a bit off to be changing the tune now.

If I can learn about Crimean history from the internet, so can the CIA.

The HOW is probably the issue. Not the WHAT. Regarding self determination.

Can you clarify what you mean in the context of Crimea please?

[Jingthing]

Yeap...to think that Putin is a true democrate and human rights advocate....well....NO ....on the contrary. He is a little narcissistic man who suffers from NPD. But the Crimeans are happy. A man like that against fascist thugs in Ukraine.....god bless them.

Yeah, well, I'm am so happy my grandparents got out of that Ukrainian Russian Empire joint when they did (easy decision then, flee or get murdered).

[F430murci]

The Crimea has been part of Russia for since a hundred years before Hawaii became part of the US. It was Krushchev (a native of Ukraine) who arbitrarily gifted the strategic peninsula of the Crimea to his homeland when he came to power in the Soviet Union in the 1950's.

It's quite presumptuous - cynical minds night say disingenuous - for the US and the west to assume that anyone had to hold a gun to the Crimean's heads to get them to join Russia. They already had a shooting war at the breakup of the Soviet Union where they narrowly missed independence and instead got autonomy from the Ukraine after 40 years of resentment to Krushchev's decision.

Given the noise that the West made about national self-determination in Kosovo, Sudan, Taiwan and so on it really is a bit off to be changing the tune now.

If I can learn about Crimean history from the internet, so can the CIA.

Therein lies the problem . . . Educated by the internet.

I will say that once again, Obama is coming off looking like a little beotch. He is as weak a President as we have ever had. Putin knows that and is treating him like his little beotch.

I actually agree that we need to stay the F out of this little dispute, land grab bs and let these countries take care of themselves. The problem is Obama talks a bunch of crap, acts all strong then issues sanctions that make everyone laugh and say WTH . . .

A strong president would say very little and do something or say nothing, do nothing and simply keep a close eye on the situation and stand at the ready if an when it gets real serious. All of this tough talk, day in and day out (notice that Putin says very little and telegraphs nothing) from our illustrious leader is a nauseating sign of weakness that becomes even weaker when he does nothing after talking big and being tough. Wow, is all I can say. What an embarrassment.

[englishoak]

of course Russia isnt a democracy but it sure gave a lesson in a democratic voting process this time around didnt it ?

Listen the Ukraine is a MESS and yes it has one of the worst and most violent neo nazi groups there is. No point to back up or defend a neo nazi like that scum yet the EI and the US are. .. they even know the snipers taking out both protesters and police were the same group of thugs shooting at both sides... you care to guess who this group was/is ? tip they are in that video.

Heres the thing I notice about that area either your strong or you get eaten for lunch if people smell weakness. Well as far as dictators go and Putin is definitely one, hes not weak and not doing a bad job. It took one last time to defeat the nazis, fascism is on the rise and Putin is not a Lenin but neo nazis are always neo nazis. In a world where we see the US gov acting with impunity into everyone elses business it is good to have those checks and balances and at the moment Russia is again one... good

Isnt it Ironic people are having to run the Russia in order to stay safe from the US ?

[Jingthing]

of course Russia isnt a democracy but it sure gave a lesson in a democratic voting process this time around didnt it ?

Listen the Ukraine is a MESS and yes it has one of the worst and most violent neo nazi groups there is. No point to back up or defend a neo nazi like that scum yet the EI and the US are. .. they even know the snipers taking out both protesters and police were the same group of thugs shooting at both sides... you care to guess who this group was/is ? tip they are in that video.

Heres the thing I notice about that area either your strong or you get eaten for lunch if people smell weakness. Well as far as dictators go and Putin is definitely one, hes not weak and not doing a bad job. It took one last time to defeat the nazis, fascism is on the rise and Putin is not a Lenin but neo nazis are always neo nazis. In a world where we see the US gov acting with impunity into everyone elses business it is good to have those checks and balances and at the moment Russia is again one... good

Isnt it Ironic people are having to run the Russia in order to stay safe from the US ?

No sir, there is nothing "good" about Putin's sickening ideology. Certainly nothing good for the world. I see the appeal to Russians nostalgic for empire though.

Vladimir Putin's gala address before Russian parliamentarians and officials Tuesday surprised no one when he announced Russia's annexation of Crimea. The interesting part was his distorted view of Russian history, and his proclamation that a bizarre kind of simultaneously aggrieved and aggressive hyper-nationalism is now Russia's official ideology.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/19/opinion/motyl-putin-speech/index.html

Also, Snowden, the traitor, is really off topic here.

[Jingthing]

The Crimea has been part of Russia for since a hundred years before Hawaii became part of the US. It was Krushchev (a native of Ukraine) who arbitrarily gifted the strategic peninsula of the Crimea to his homeland when he came to power in the Soviet Union in the 1950's.

It's quite presumptuous - cynical minds night say disingenuous - for the US and the west to assume that anyone had to hold a gun to the Crimean's heads to get them to join Russia. They already had a shooting war at the breakup of the Soviet Union where they narrowly missed independence and instead got autonomy from the Ukraine after 40 years of resentment to Krushchev's decision.

Given the noise that the West made about national self-determination in Kosovo, Sudan, Taiwan and so on it really is a bit off to be changing the tune now.

If I can learn about Crimean history from the internet, so can the CIA.

Therein lies the problem . . . Educated by the internet.

I will say that once again, Obama is coming off looking like a little beotch. He is as weak a President as we have ever had. Putin knows that and is treating him like his little beotch.

I actually agree that we need to stay the F out of this little dispute, land grab bs and let these countries take care of themselves. The problem is Obama talks a bunch of crap, acts all strong then issues sanctions that make everyone laugh and say WTH . . .

A strong president would say very little and do something or say nothing, do nothing and simply keep a close eye on the situation and stand at the ready if an when it gets real serious. All of this tough talk, day in and day out (notice that Putin says very little and telegraphs nothing) from our illustrious leader is a nauseating sign of weakness that becomes even weaker when he does nothing after talking big and being tough. Wow, is all I can say. What an embarrassment.

Obama is weak yes but then again the US shouldnt even be over there meddling anyway. Everyone knows the US economy is doomed and running on hot air, it would be better to give up the empire and go home and fix its own backyard but unfortunately just like the Roman empire and British it needs perpetual war now to survive and maintain its size and presence. It will however go the same way.

Everyone knows that, huh? Hilarious! It's nice to have a platform here for the tired old America is dying crowd.

Meanwhile, BACK IN THE REAL WORLD, the USA and the UK will be doing military exercises in the remaining part of Ukraine that invading dictator Putin hasn't stolen yet. Who's laughing now? Is that weak? I think not. Putin promised this is over. We'll see, huh?

No, this isn't a new cold war, because Russia isn't communist anymore and isn't selling an ideology of any appeal whatsoever to any other country in the world. But this is a new era of very cold relations between the west and Russia, thanks to dictator Putin.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[MB1]

The Crimea has been part of Russia for since a hundred years before Hawaii became part of the US. It was Krushchev (a native of Ukraine) who arbitrarily gifted the strategic peninsula of the Crimea to his homeland when he came to power in the Soviet Union in the 1950's.

It's quite presumptuous - cynical minds night say disingenuous - for the US and the west to assume that anyone had to hold a gun to the Crimean's heads to get them to join Russia. They already had a shooting war at the breakup of the Soviet Union where they narrowly missed independence and instead got autonomy from the Ukraine after 40 years of resentment to Krushchev's decision.

Given the noise that the West made about national self-determination in Kosovo, Sudan, Taiwan and so on it really is a bit off to be changing the tune now.

If I can learn about Crimean history from the internet, so can the CIA.

Therein lies the problem . . . Educated by the internet.

I will say that once again, Obama is coming off looking like a little beotch. He is as weak a President as we have ever had. Putin knows that and is treating him like his little beotch.

I actually agree that we need to stay the F out of this little dispute, land grab bs and let these countries take care of themselves. The problem is Obama talks a bunch of crap, acts all strong then issues sanctions that make everyone laugh and say WTH . . .

A strong president would say very little and do something or say nothing, do nothing and simply keep a close eye on the situation and stand at the ready if an when it gets real serious. All of this tough talk, day in and day out (notice that Putin says very little and telegraphs nothing) from our illustrious leader is a nauseating sign of weakness that becomes even weaker when he does nothing after talking big and being tough. Wow, is all I can say. What an embarrassment.

Obama is weak yes but then again the US shouldnt even be over there meddling anyway. Everyone knows the US economy is doomed and running on hot air, it would be better to give up the empire and go home and fix its own backyard but unfortunately just like the Roman empire and British it needs perpetual war now to survive and maintain its size and presence. It will however go the same way.

Everyone knows that, huh? Hilarious! It's nice to have a platform here for the tired old America is dying crowd.

Meanwhile, BACK IN THE REAL WORLD, the USA and the UK will be doing military exercises in the remaining part of Ukraine that invading dictator Putin hasn't stolen yet. Who's laughing now? Is that weak? I think not. Putin promised this is over. We'll see, huh?

I think Jing that the real problem lies in that Russia/ Putin saw a weakness in the American/British and he rest of Europes weakness to do any thing about Syria, Oh and also the fact that austerity measures around the world means that getting involved in wars means that dimlomatic measures by using sanctions seem a far cheaper option....Let's wait and see hey....

Oh and by the way . who gave America the right to POLICE the world,,,,????.... Funny how they never seem to pick on CHINA..

IMO the Americans are the biggest war mongers in the world...Even Illegal wars...

Edited March 19, 2014 by MB1

[Jingthing]

Putin is playing this victory dance like he raped the USA. He can't help himself. OK, he kind of did, but don't underestimate the pushback that is coming later.

This insult by a Russian dictator is not lost on American voters.

I predict the presidential contest in 2016 will be HAWK democrat Hillary Clinton vs. radical isolationist "libertarian" Rand Paul.

Clinton will win big (the key American moderates/independents will not be ready for isolationism) and Putin won't be dancing anymore.

Putin and Russia the "gas station" have a crazy big head.

The relationship that actually MATTERS in the century has little to do with Russia, it's about Chimerica, CHINA - USA.

Cheers.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Jingthing

[benalibina]

of course Russia isnt a democracy but it sure gave a lesson in a democratic voting process this time around didnt it ?

Listen the Ukraine is a MESS and yes it has one of the worst and most violent neo nazi groups there is. No point to back up or defend a neo nazi like that scum yet the EI and the US are. .. they even know the snipers taking out both protesters and police were the same group of thugs shooting at both sides... you care to guess who this group was/is ? tip they are in that video.

Heres the thing I notice about that area either your strong or you get eaten for lunch if people smell weakness. Well as far as dictators go and Putin is definitely one, hes not weak and not doing a bad job. It took one last time to defeat the nazis, fascism is on the rise and Putin is not a Lenin but neo nazis are always neo nazis. In a world where we see the US gov acting with impunity into everyone elses business it is good to have those checks and balances and at the moment Russia is again one... good

Isnt it Ironic people are having to run the Russia in order to stay safe from the US ?

Your opinions have been extensive, eventhough i not fully agree with them. However, ur last sentence .....well...u lost alot of credibility.....

Not saying that one needs to run to the US of A.

Good night.