Thai Democrat Party threatens to boycott second election

[Eric Loh]

Think you meant 'socialism' being promoted.

If you think that removing Yingluck and creating a political vacuum is promoting socialism then who am I to argue with that!!

Really no argument here. Election is democracy. Appointment is for socialism. That simple.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Think you meant 'socialism' being promoted.

If you think that removing Yingluck and creating a political vacuum is promoting socialism then who am I to argue with that!!

Really no argument here. Election is democracy. Appointment is for socialism. That simple.

I don't understand why at first you said it was democracy being attacked and now you are saying that socialism is being promoted - through the same actions!!

[rubl]

Think you meant 'socialism' being promoted.

If you think that removing Yingluck and creating a political vacuum is promoting socialism then who am I to argue with that!!

Really no argument here. Election is democracy. Appointment is for socialism. That simple.

Election is democratic, ask those in North Korea.

"respect my vote even AFTER it has been counted" would be more democratic. Excluding political parties which are run by criminal fugitives abroad would make things even more democratic. Educating people in what 'democracy' means would be good as well.

BTW what's wrong with 'socialism', or may be I should first ask what your definition of socialism is?

[HKChris]

A larger part of the Isaan population still lives under the age old patronage system, their own homegrown elite as it were. They vote as they are told to. Furthermore the participation of a political party led by a criminal fugitive abroad makes a mockery out of these elections.

A reform is needed before proper elections can be held.

So, please tell us all what specific reforms you would consider need to be in place before proper elections can take place, and how would these reforms be implemented? Your mate Suthep can't elaborate on this question, but perhaps you can.

Such agressiveness, chill-out man.

The PDRC is having forums to setup frameworks for possible reforms. A broader participation is needed to further give body to that framework. Even more participation will be needed to get some consensus on the reforms. Discussions on how to implement should come when the reforms are seen as getting into a workable shape.

In the mean time, you might want to give us your view on things?

Not aggressive at all - at least not intended. It was a genuine question, as nobody for the whole time the PDRC has been in existence has put forward any real workable and constructive proposals for reforms that will take the whole governance and electoral process forward. Yes - fine to set up frameworks and forums to determine such reforms, and I agree that these will need broad participation across the political spectrum. The problem is that Suthep has clearly indicated he doesn't want dialogue and negotiation - he just wants it his way. No wonder that there is a large body of resistance to that. And even if we could get these forums established and working properly, I think everybody accepts it will take a long time. In the meantime the country has to be governed and it can only be governed by the most recent 'winners' of the election process - like it or not, that's the democratic way. The alternative is some form of military coup which nobody wants to see either - particularly not the international community.

My view on things? I would like to think I am fairly neutral - being a foreigner here I can't influence anything anyway - have enough trouble trying to influence my wife! I support the right for legitimate political protest and initially had no problem with the PDRC until they started breaking the law and it all descended into insurrection. Unfortunately Suthep seemed to get power-crazy and went too far...and still is to the point of making completely false and outrages claims and inciting his 'followers' to commit a variety of illegal acts. This was all done in an environment where there was little if any opposition resistance in Bangkok.....until the immediate lead-up to the election. Now that resistance has come to Bangkok, he has wisely retreated to Lumpini Park. However, I find it outrageous the PDRC have been allowed to commandeer so much of Bangkok over the months. The whole saga has been a disaster for Thailand, politically, financially, and international 'respect', which will take many years to recover from.

On the other hand, I believe it was a good thing to quash the Amnesty Bill - a ridiculous attempt at a general whitewash. It was also good that the 2 Trillion Baht loan business for the highspeed railway was quashed - again a ridiculous waste of money where, under good and audited governance, a fraction of that amount could be spent on upgrading current infrastructure to achieve the same stated purpose - equivalent to other ASEAN neighbors. I also believe Thaksin is a seriously divisive figure in Thai politics and his influence must be removed. I think YL has done as good a job as she could under the circumstances, and for a while was seen to represent Thailand internationally very well. She was not prepared (nor could anyone have been) for the political storm which has erupted around her. I would like to see the whole thing settle down - allow the police, army, and the judiciary to manage the situation with neutrality - a dream I know. So there have been a couple of good things that have come out of the protest - I just disagree strongly with the way its happened and I still believe Suthep and his team are very dangerous for Thialand in the long run.

Hope that helps!

[Publicus]

As is your prerogative...refuse to be a part of the thing your name embodies..."The Democratic Party, in that case, would not participate in the new general election even if the party had to be dissolved as stipulated in the constitution. It will instead find another way to reform the country."

Great! no surprise here... ( but not too smart I fear in the long run)...but ..Hey now you can start a new Party..The PRP Party... The Popcorn Reform Party...just be kind enough to not use Democratic again for it flies full in the face of what you are all about.. I had such high hopes for some kind of political outreach...six months ago when the rumblings began...some kind of build.... constructive build on what you found as weaknesses in the opposition...and you had a great opportunity.. to exploit it through political outreach, populist education and had you been concerned at all about reform... offered it then... and given the people you need to win an alternative...but instead you let a genie out of the bottle and it became enamored with its power of obstruction rather than construction...what a sham... lost faith in all parties here now...especially disappointed in the Democrats...but alas your claim to reform...that was and will never be the intention..as reform is the farthest thing from the Agenda.... same as it was last time around.....a paper tiger ...Democratic Reform...oxymoron...

This is, I think, an excellent post that invites a good look in to the core of who the people are in the Democrat Party, what they presently propagate, and that which they pursue with an unrelenting determination and single-mindedness. The Democrat Party, Thailand's oldest continuous political party, has not so much evolved as it has revolved. That is, while it is not (yet) a gang of People's Council stormtroopers, the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept.

"Whether the power and wealth agent that takes the place of government is a local baron, lord, or corporation, if it has greater power in the lives of individuals than does a representative government, the culture has dissolved into feudalism. The feudal system means the rigorous economic subjection of a host of humble folk to a few powerful men. This doesn't mean the end of government, but, instead the subordination of government to the interest of the feudal lords."

http://www.hermes-press.com/fascist_globalism.htm

There's the 'fascist' term again, in a topic which has a political party saying they don't see any reasons for an election as long as a criminal fugitive is still controlling one of the political parties. With Pheu Thai in it's "mandate, thank you, go home now" I can understand that attitude and request for reforms before new elections are held.

Mind you proper reforms would bind ALL parties, groups, sides.

Something like 40 democratic governments abroad support the legitimate caretaker government of the Kingdom of Thailand, so you might want to keep that in mind.

A number of analysts in several of the democracies abroad have used the word "fascism" in discussing Suthep and his insurrectionist street mobs, the ammart's "People's Council", and the means, methods, purposes, goals of the PDRC and its DP political allies.

A large number of commentators among the democracies have mocked, ridiculed and dismissed the Democrat Party for its anti-democracy views and actions, such as boycotting elections, while criticizing the DP for its passiveness towards the thugs at the polling stations who assaulted innocent voters trying to exercise their franchise.

Indeed, any "reforms" written by Suthep's "People's Council" would be produced by a council composed of the elite of the elites and which, while binding ALL parties, groups, sides, would necessarily be exclusive of any significant input by ALL parties, groups, sides. While token representation would likely be offered by any such Council to those it considers suitable for token membership, it is dubious of Suthep et al to presume any democrats in Thailand would participate in such a feudalist undertaking as the "People's Council".

I'd been saying the proposed, appointed "People's Council" remains anonymous and officially speaking, it does. However, I do thank those posters who have pointed out that anyone can very likely find its membership among Suthep's listing of his friends at his Facebook page.

"What is clear is that they want a transition to a fascist system."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/10/thailand-elections-government-politics/3950305/

"Yet Suthep and his establishment friends insist on their right, and their right alone, to rule. His crowds evoke memories of fascist bullies in other nations cowing the majority and forcing their way into power. He claims to represent the nation but has only contempt for those who do not recognize his pretensions. On election day the Black Shirts even attacked Thais seeking to vote, throwing punches as well as water bottles and other objects."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2014/02/03/in-thailand-opposition-assaults-democracy-as-voters-reelect-government-yellow-shirt-protestors-act-like-mussolinis-black-shirts/2/

"Thailand’s latest poll was triggered by mobs which sought to drive Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra from office. Although the protestors wear yellow, they are the modern equivalent of Benito Mussolini’s Black Shirts, who seized power through the infamous 1922 march on Rome. The misnamed Democrat Party and its ally, the People’s Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC), led by former DP deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban, then attempted to block Sunday’s vote."

http://www.conservativehq.com/article/16254-thailand-votes-opposition-yellow-shirt-protesters-threaten-democracy

"The Kingdom of Thailand, the land of the smiling people, the gorgeous countryside and a storied history as the once-upon-a-time Siam, now has a severe case of the political uglies. This constitutional democracy, anchored by a long-running monarchy, is in danger of heading down a fascist path."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/12/24/commentary/the-tragedy-of-thailands-politics/#.UyvN9J2S1dg

The list of citations of foreign commentators or analysts who cite a developing fascism in Thailand, due to Suthep, Abhisit and the DP, among other forces and factors, gets very long.

[Dap]

if the court nullifies the election then newq elections should noit be held until the court cases against the pm and several ptp members is finalized. Where is the sense in having elections when half those in them are facing legal action, electing someone that could be jailed is totally senseless. Once the courts have dealt with the ones facing charges(dems included) then the elections should be held.

The court already nullified the Feb 2 election earlier today.

No more "if's". Done deal

Edited March 21, 2014 by Dap

[Stan7444]

Why would they want to take part in an election?

Show again they are unable to win a majority? Embarrassing. They need ot get back to their bread and butter - Unelected Peoples Councils for all

Go Team Yelllow

Fight Team Yellow

Win Team Yellow

...and Abhisit the supposed leader of the Democrat Party was also quoted in the media just last week that their party WOULD participate in any future election. Who is really running this party, the guy charged with murder or Democrat Spokesman Chavanond? Maybe they should have some coffee and talk it over before making independent statements which contradict each other a few days apart.

[darren84310]

Bad move.... They should agree to an election, the farmers are growing tired of PTP.

[whybother]

This is, I think, an excellent post that invites a good look in to the core of who the people are in the Democrat Party, what they presently propagate, and that which they pursue with an unrelenting determination and single-mindedness. The Democrat Party, Thailand's oldest continuous political party, has not so much evolved as it has revolved. That is, while it is not (yet) a gang of People's Council stormtroopers, the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept.

"Whether the power and wealth agent that takes the place of government is a local baron, lord, or corporation, if it has greater power in the lives of individuals than does a representative government, the culture has dissolved into feudalism. The feudal system means the rigorous economic subjection of a host of humble folk to a few powerful men. This doesn't mean the end of government, but, instead the subordination of government to the interest of the feudal lords."

http://www.hermes-press.com/fascist_globalism.htm

"the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept. "

If the Democrats are so "actively" against 1 person, 1 vote, you should be able to provide some evidence of that?

[SICHONSTEVE]

This is, I think, an excellent post that invites a good look in to the core of who the people are in the Democrat Party, what they presently propagate, and that which they pursue with an unrelenting determination and single-mindedness. The Democrat Party, Thailand's oldest continuous political party, has not so much evolved as it has revolved. That is, while it is not (yet) a gang of People's Council stormtroopers, the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept.

"Whether the power and wealth agent that takes the place of government is a local baron, lord, or corporation, if it has greater power in the lives of individuals than does a representative government, the culture has dissolved into feudalism. The feudal system means the rigorous economic subjection of a host of humble folk to a few powerful men. This doesn't mean the end of government, but, instead the subordination of government to the interest of the feudal lords."

http://www.hermes-press.com/fascist_globalism.htm

"the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept. "

If the Democrats are so "actively" against 1 person, 1 vote, you should be able to provide some evidence of that?

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

[Gweiloman]

"the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept. "

If the Democrats are so "actively" against 1 person, 1 vote, you should be able to provide some evidence of that?

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

Remind me again. How were the (now voided) 2 Feb elections not free and and fair AT THE TIME they were called?

[Issangeorge]

The Democratic Party has lost all relevance as far as I'm concerned. Personally I think the solution for Thailand's problem is for the courts to act on the cases before them and both

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[rubl]

Such agressiveness, chill-out man.

The PDRC is having forums to setup frameworks for possible reforms. A broader participation is needed to further give body to that framework. Even more participation will be needed to get some consensus on the reforms. Discussions on how to implement should come when the reforms are seen as getting into a workable shape.

In the mean time, you might want to give us your view on things?

Not aggressive at all - at least not intended. It was a genuine question, as nobody for the whole time the PDRC has been in existence has put forward any real workable and constructive proposals for reforms that will take the whole governance and electoral process forward. Yes - fine to set up frameworks and forums to determine such reforms, and I agree that these will need broad participation across the political spectrum. The problem is that Suthep has clearly indicated he doesn't want dialogue and negotiation - he just wants it his way. No wonder that there is a large body of resistance to that. And even if we could get these forums established and working properly, I think everybody accepts it will take a long time. In the meantime the country has to be governed and it can only be governed by the most recent 'winners' of the election process - like it or not, that's the democratic way. The alternative is some form of military coup which nobody wants to see either - particularly not the international community.

My view on things? I would like to think I am fairly neutral - being a foreigner here I can't influence anything anyway - have enough trouble trying to influence my wife! I support the right for legitimate political protest and initially had no problem with the PDRC until they started breaking the law and it all descended into insurrection. Unfortunately Suthep seemed to get power-crazy and went too far...and still is to the point of making completely false and outrages claims and inciting his 'followers' to commit a variety of illegal acts. This was all done in an environment where there was little if any opposition resistance in Bangkok.....until the immediate lead-up to the election. Now that resistance has come to Bangkok, he has wisely retreated to Lumpini Park. However, I find it outrageous the PDRC have been allowed to commandeer so much of Bangkok over the months. The whole saga has been a disaster for Thailand, politically, financially, and international 'respect', which will take many years to recover from.

On the other hand, I believe it was a good thing to quash the Amnesty Bill - a ridiculous attempt at a general whitewash. It was also good that the 2 Trillion Baht loan business for the highspeed railway was quashed - again a ridiculous waste of money where, under good and audited governance, a fraction of that amount could be spent on upgrading current infrastructure to achieve the same stated purpose - equivalent to other ASEAN neighbors. I also believe Thaksin is a seriously divisive figure in Thai politics and his influence must be removed. I think YL has done as good a job as she could under the circumstances, and for a while was seen to represent Thailand internationally very well. She was not prepared (nor could anyone have been) for the political storm which has erupted around her. I would like to see the whole thing settle down - allow the police, army, and the judiciary to manage the situation with neutrality - a dream I know. So there have been a couple of good things that have come out of the protest - I just disagree strongly with the way its happened and I still believe Suthep and his team are very dangerous for Thialand in the long run.

Hope that helps!

The PDRC has made clear that there are no fixed, already formulated reform proposals. They do not want to dictate reform proposals or even guide people with reform proposals. They want broad cooperation from day one. Seeing the obfuscation by others they have began slowly and carefully to formulate some framework, some guidelines. Still trying to avoid writing too much without broader input.

Now what Suthep manages to do is twofold. Obstruct the undemocratic, power and money hungry Yingluck government AND make more of the Thai population aware of the need for reforms.

Some of your formulation seems to suggest you are not 'fairly' neutral, much more pro-government leaning. Your good right, but don't obfuscate about it.

As for the blanket amnesty bill, a complete disgrace. Especially the blanket coverage to have included the first two years of Yinglucks government only goes to show they have a lot to hide. Probably the 700++ billion 'lost' on the rice price pledging scheme. A government 'taking care' of corruption. Yingluck, the sweet face voicing platitudes and her henchmen in cabinet and Pheu Thai party being more vocal in "we do not accept", "we'll sue". Today Prime minister's secretary-general Suranand Vejjajiva urged the Democrats to contest a fresh poll if the Constitution Court today rules against the Feb 2 election, the Democrats should consider returning to the race, with him saying their boycott of the Feb 2 poll was to blame for the political turmoil. It's the others, only the others. As always, we have done nothing wrong.

PS indeed the CC ruled against the Fab4 elections

[rubl]

There's the 'fascist' term again, in a topic which has a political party saying they don't see any reasons for an election as long as a criminal fugitive is still controlling one of the political parties. With Pheu Thai in it's "mandate, thank you, go home now" I can understand that attitude and request for reforms before new elections are held.

Mind you proper reforms would bind ALL parties, groups, sides.

Something like 40 democratic governments abroad support the legitimate caretaker government of the Kingdom of Thailand, so you might want to keep that in mind.

A number of analysts in several of the democracies abroad have used the word "fascism" in discussing Suthep and his insurrectionist street mobs, the ammart's "People's Council", and the means, methods, purposes, goals of the PDRC and its DP political allies.

A large number of commentators among the democracies have mocked, ridiculed and dismissed the Democrat Party for its anti-democracy views and actions, such as boycotting elections, while criticizing the DP for its passiveness towards the thugs at the polling stations who assaulted innocent voters trying to exercise their franchise.

Indeed, any "reforms" written by Suthep's "People's Council" would be produced by a council composed of the elite of the elites and which, while binding ALL parties, groups, sides, would necessarily be exclusive of any significant input by ALL parties, groups, sides. While token representation would likely be offered by any such Council to those it considers suitable for token membership, it is dubious of Suthep et al to presume any democrats in Thailand would participate in such a feudalist undertaking as the "People's Council".

I'd been saying the proposed, appointed "People's Council" remains anonymous and officially speaking, it does. However, I do thank those posters who have pointed out that anyone can very likely find its membership among Suthep's listing of his friends at his Facebook page.

"What is clear is that they want a transition to a fascist system."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/12/10/thailand-elections-government-politics/3950305/

"Yet Suthep and his establishment friends insist on their right, and their right alone, to rule. His crowds evoke memories of fascist bullies in other nations cowing the majority and forcing their way into power. He claims to represent the nation but has only contempt for those who do not recognize his pretensions. On election day the Black Shirts even attacked Thais seeking to vote, throwing punches as well as water bottles and other objects."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2014/02/03/in-thailand-opposition-assaults-democracy-as-voters-reelect-government-yellow-shirt-protestors-act-like-mussolinis-black-shirts/2/

"Thailand’s latest poll was triggered by mobs which sought to drive Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra from office. Although the protestors wear yellow, they are the modern equivalent of Benito Mussolini’s Black Shirts, who seized power through the infamous 1922 march on Rome. The misnamed Democrat Party and its ally, the People’s Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC), led by former DP deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban, then attempted to block Sunday’s vote."

http://www.conservativehq.com/article/16254-thailand-votes-opposition-yellow-shirt-protesters-threaten-democracy

"The Kingdom of Thailand, the land of the smiling people, the gorgeous countryside and a storied history as the once-upon-a-time Siam, now has a severe case of the political uglies. This constitutional democracy, anchored by a long-running monarchy, is in danger of heading down a fascist path."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/12/24/commentary/the-tragedy-of-thailands-politics/#.UyvN9J2S1dg

The list of citations of foreign commentators or analysts who cite a developing fascism in Thailand, due to Suthep, Abhisit and the DP, among other forces and factors, gets very long.

Well, you're doing nicely in helping our dear caretaker Dept PM and MoFA Surapong.

Mind you, that 'fascist path' is just some more obfuscation. The emphasis on "democracy = voting' and "voting = democratic" only shows how misunderstood the workings in a democracy really are.

Your list only shows you search for one side with the foreign press being fairly easy in it's comments. It's a "far from my bed" show to most with no involvement, no understanding.

Now tell me, how can boycotting an election be undemocratic. How can deciding not to participate in an election by undemocratic? How can elections with a political party being owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive abroad be democratic?

AS I wrote, first reforms and binding ALL parties, groups, sides.

[rubl]

"the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept. "

If the Democrats are so "actively" against 1 person, 1 vote, you should be able to provide some evidence of that?

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

Remind me again. How were the (now voided) 2 Feb elections not free and and fair AT THE TIME they were called?

Because the Pheu Thai party which is owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive abroad would still participate. Because the "we have a mandate" Yingluck government which called upon themselves the anti-government by trying to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered their first two years in office, was still involved.

Edited March 21, 2014 by rubl

[chooka]

Boycott if you want but don't throw a hissy fit if you don't win.

[SICHONSTEVE]

"the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept. "

If the Democrats are so "actively" against 1 person, 1 vote, you should be able to provide some evidence of that?

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

Remind me again. How were the (now voided) 2 Feb elections not free and and fair AT THE TIME they were called?

Because they didn't contain the needed reforms to fix the electoral system, as it is broke.

PTP used lunatic populist policies to obtain the election result they were seeking and these policies were to the obvious detriment of the country and it's people (as predicted and as proven).

The first thing that should be outlawed in these electoral reforms is being allowed to put uncosted and undemocratic (preferentially benefits certain sectors of society to the detriment of the rest) populist policies into your electoral manifesto. They must be vetted by a neutral committee and disallowed (as they all would have been) if they are flawed or can lead to corruption in their implementation.

If they didn't have these bird-brained scams then they wouldn't have had a majority so they (PTP) have proved to have gained an unfair advantage that needs to be put right before fresh elections can be held to prevent irresponsibility from prevailing!!

We will see, now that these scams have all unravelled how the PTP can perform with everyone playing on a level playing field when free and fair elections are eventually held!! It will be fascinating.

[Pikeybkk]

Who wants to play against a team that wins by cheating every time.

Who wants to play against a team that wins every time?

Wins by cheating every time!

And the democrats don't cheat and are not corrupt, go roll urself another spliff mate cause you are living in the world of zog if you think that...lol

[SICHONSTEVE]

Who wants to play against a team that wins by cheating every time.

Who wants to play against a team that wins every time?

Wins by cheating every time!

And the democrats don't cheat and are not corrupt, go roll urself another spliff mate cause you are living in the world of zog if you think that...lol

It clearly has never occurred to you that they don't win because they refuse to cheat in the same way that the PTP does!!!

Edited March 21, 2014 by SICHONSTEVE

[Gweiloman]

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

Remind me again. How were the (now voided) 2 Feb elections not free and and fair AT THE TIME they were called?

Because the Pheu Thai party which is owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive abroad would still participate. Because the "we have a mandate" Yingluck government which called upon themselves the anti-government by trying to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered their first two years in office, was still involved.

@rubl & SICHONSTEVE,

Your responses are fine and well but how would the elections be not FREE and FAIR. You are stating your reasons as to why the Dems did not want to participate but that's not to say the the elections cannot be free and fair.

If as SS claims, it's due to populist policies, then which voter in the world would ever vote for a party that is not popular?

Having said that, I do agree that the Dems are probably not against free and fair elections but they were against the 2 Feb elections because they know that they will not win the mandate to govern Thailand. That is the REAL reason they did not want to participate and anything else is a lie, which I am sure you know as well.

[rubl]

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

Remind me again. How were the (now voided) 2 Feb elections not free and and fair AT THE TIME they were called?

Because the Pheu Thai party which is owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive abroad would still participate. Because the "we have a mandate" Yingluck government which called upon themselves the anti-government by trying to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered their first two years in office, was still involved.

@rubl & SICHONSTEVE,

Your responses are fine and well but how would the elections be not FREE and FAIR. You are stating your reasons as to why the Dems did not want to participate but that's not to say the the elections cannot be free and fair.

If as SS claims, it's due to populist policies, then which voter in the world would ever vote for a party that is not popular?

Having said that, I do agree that the Dems are probably not against free and fair elections but they were against the 2 Feb elections because they know that they will not win the mandate to govern Thailand. That is the REAL reason they did not want to participate and anything else is a lie, which I am sure you know as well.

How can elections be fair when a criminal fugitive abroad is allowed to own and control one of the participating political parties?

As for "winning elections", all parties which participate AND get seats win. That's how it works in a democracy with a follow up in "respect my vote even AFTER it has been counted".

As long as the Pheu Thai with it's failed and utter corrupt government (where's my 700++ billion) is allowed to continue as if nothing happened, no elections can be fair.

[Spalpeen]

Who wants to play against a team that wins by cheating every time.

Who wants to play against a team that wins every time?

Wins by cheating every time!

And the democrats don't cheat and are not corrupt, go roll urself another spliff mate cause you are living in the world of zog if you think that...lol

It clearly has never occurred to you that they don't win because they refuse to cheat in the same way that the PTP does!!!

.

I think we can all agree that there was no cheating whatsoever in the Feb 2nd election. PTP didn't cheat, because there's no need to cheat in a one horse race, and the 'Democrats' didn't cheat because they didn't even turn up.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Who wants to play against a team that wins by cheating every time.

Who wants to play against a team that wins every time?

Wins by cheating every time!

And the democrats don't cheat and are not corrupt, go roll urself another spliff mate cause you are living in the world of zog if you think that...lol

It clearly has never occurred to you that they don't win because they refuse to cheat in the same way that the PTP does!!!

.

I think we can all agree that there was no cheating whatsoever in the Feb 2nd election. PTP didn't cheat, because there's no need to cheat in a one horse race, and the 'Democrats' didn't cheat because they didn't even turn up.

So who won the Feb 2nd elections then??

[Eric Loh]

Every PDRCists claimed corruption. Will one of these people showed me just who in the government has been charged and convicted. The NACC charge is PM dereliction of duty. Thank you.

[Gweiloman]

Because the Pheu Thai party which is owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive abroad would still participate. Because the "we have a mandate" Yingluck government which called upon themselves the anti-government by trying to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered their first two years in office, was still involved.

@rubl & SICHONSTEVE,

Your responses are fine and well but how would the elections be not FREE and FAIR. You are stating your reasons as to why the Dems did not want to participate but that's not to say the the elections cannot be free and fair.

If as SS claims, it's due to populist policies, then which voter in the world would ever vote for a party that is not popular?

Having said that, I do agree that the Dems are probably not against free and fair elections but they were against the 2 Feb elections because they know that they will not win the mandate to govern Thailand. That is the REAL reason they did not want to participate and anything else is a lie, which I am sure you know as well.

How can elections be fair when a criminal fugitive abroad is allowed to own and control one of the participating political parties?

As for "winning elections", all parties which participate AND get seats win. That's how it works in a democracy with a follow up in "respect my vote even AFTER it has been counted".

As long as the Pheu Thai with it's failed and utter corrupt government (where's my 700++ billion) is allowed to continue as if nothing happened, no elections can be fair.

My dear rubl,

IF a criminal fugitive abroad is allowed to own and control one of the political parties, this might make it illegal but it does not make any set of elections unfair. Even the CC does not refer to this allegation in their considerations.

Your other points are irrelevant.

You may be elderly, but you have not learnt to know when to give up arguing a lost point.

[Eric Loh]

Gweiloman, maybe you can explain what you meant by own and control. It's like Suterp finance 1/3 of the Dem Party and he is on many arrest warrants and that he control all the policies of the Dem Party. It's the same?

[SICHONSTEVE]

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

Remind me again. How were the (now voided) 2 Feb elections not free and and fair AT THE TIME they were called?

Because the Pheu Thai party which is owned and controlled by a criminal fugitive abroad would still participate. Because the "we have a mandate" Yingluck government which called upon themselves the anti-government by trying to push through a blanket amnesty bill which even covered their first two years in office, was still involved.

@rubl & SICHONSTEVE,

Your responses are fine and well but how would the elections be not FREE and FAIR. You are stating your reasons as to why the Dems did not want to participate but that's not to say the the elections cannot be free and fair.

If as SS claims, it's due to populist policies, then which voter in the world would ever vote for a party that is not popular?

Having said that, I do agree that the Dems are probably not against free and fair elections but they were against the 2 Feb elections because they know that they will not win the mandate to govern Thailand. That is the REAL reason they did not want to participate and anything else is a lie, which I am sure you know as well.

I don't know where to begin.

They didn't want to participate because elections at this moment in time are implicitly UNFAIR for the reasons that I have given. The PTP have no qualms about obtaining power in an unfair and unethical manner, however, the Democrats are a responsible party and do not wish to cheat like the PTP - so they lose!!

Populist policies are fine if they are sensible and do not place a burden on society - I'm afraid that these policies that they used to gain power are in another dimension in this respect and should never have seen the light of day!! It is rather ironic how much they have alienated their core voters though as they fell apart at the seams and destroyed their livelihoods!! If you could implement a policy whereby everybody felt a small benefit and it wasn't too costly then that would be an example of an affordable populist policy that will endear you to the people (and in doing so make you popular).

Your third point avails to those elections (Feb 2nd) being based on the self same principles of unfairness that would potentially lead to the same outcome as we have just suffered (sorry, I mean that the farmers are enduring). The elections must be made free and fair before the Dem's will consider re entering the fray as the PTP cheating their way to another 4 years of mismanagement is not something Thailand can afford!!! The Dem's didn't contest these elections to render the process irrelevant and outcome unrepresentative of the people's wishes, which is precisely what they achieved, now that these elections have been voided.

[Publicus]

This is, I think, an excellent post that invites a good look in to the core of who the people are in the Democrat Party, what they presently propagate, and that which they pursue with an unrelenting determination and single-mindedness. The Democrat Party, Thailand's oldest continuous political party, has not so much evolved as it has revolved. That is, while it is not (yet) a gang of People's Council stormtroopers, the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept.

"Whether the power and wealth agent that takes the place of government is a local baron, lord, or corporation, if it has greater power in the lives of individuals than does a representative government, the culture has dissolved into feudalism. The feudal system means the rigorous economic subjection of a host of humble folk to a few powerful men. This doesn't mean the end of government, but, instead the subordination of government to the interest of the feudal lords."

http://www.hermes-press.com/fascist_globalism.htm

"the Democrat Party is actively and irreversably against a representative democratic government that is predicated in the 1 person, 1 vote precept. "

If the Democrats are so "actively" against 1 person, 1 vote, you should be able to provide some evidence of that?

He won't be able to - it is ridiculous to say that they are against free and fair elections and a pure lie!!!

Of course no one can point to the DP ever making such statements publically. Anyone paying any attention the past several months can see the DP's agenda in its actions and inactions, in what the DP and Abhisit say and don't say, what Abhisit and the DP do or don't do, in the criticisms of respected analysts and commentators of respected and respectable democracies abroad of Abhisit and the DP for their shamelessly abominable behaviors the past several months.

To say I "lie" discredits you greatly. The irony is that you and so many others completely miss subtleties, implications, nuances that are actually as subtle and nuanced as a 2x4 to the nose.

In fact, when have Abhisit and the DP separated themselves, individually or together, from the following accounts? Comparisons have been made at TVF of the DP being to the PCAD as Sinn Fein is to the IRA, and there is some measure of accuracy to the analogy, however strong the analogy may be.

The accounts below are but a few of the analysis and a body of commentary on the anti-government, anti-democracy rabble that are causing the present commotion. The DP has contributed significantly and consistency to the ongoing turmoil of the country by refusing in the absolute to participate in legitimate elections. The DP's conditions of future electoral participation are that its terms and conditions be met in the absolute.

The DP's terms and conditions for a new election are to guarantee it cannot lose. A central means to realize a guarantee is to abolish universal suffrage. A "People's Council" would accomplish this goal and purpose in the cut-throat ways the 2007 coup rulers and their coup written constitution so glaringly failed to do.

*****************

"It’s just that when it comes to Thai democracy, the ironically named Democrat Party is among the worst practitioners.

"The Democrat Party last won a majority in 1992. Its power base is the Bangkok bourgeoisie, described as “timid, selfish, uncultured, consumerist and without any decent vision of the future of the country” by Cornell University Professor Benedict Anderson. As such, the party finds no support among the rural poor of the nation’s northeast — which is Red Shirt territory — and flounders at the ballot box. But instead of developing manifestos and platforms that could compete for rural votes, the party alienates the heartland electorate further by petulantly calling upon powerful allies — such as the military or judiciary — to undermine its rival."

http://world.time.com/2013/11/28/thailands-democrat-party-is-hilariously-misnamed/

"Critics have said the group's name appears to be a misnomer as its opposition to the results of three elections show it is neither populist nor does it want representative democracy.

"Instead, the PAD advocate scrapping the one-man-one-vote system in Thailand, and say only 30 per cent of parliament's members should be directly elected by the people. The remaining 70 per cent should be chosen from various occupations and professions and be appointed, they say."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spotlight/thaielection/2011/06/2011630132059385189.html

"At the Democracy Monument, in Bangkok’s historic district, tens of thousands of protesters gather nightly to speak of their skepticism of the notion of one person, one vote."

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/world/asia/in-thailand-rallying-cry-is-against-too-much-democracy.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

"One-person, one-vote democracy may or may not be the best of all possible systems; but it is the one indicated by the Thai Constitution, and the one deserving the respect and support of all decent Thais.

"But the many thousands of angry protesters in Bangkok, the capital city where the anti-government movement is boiling, are not marching for democracy but, in effect, for an end to it.

"They would thus end the system of universal suffrage in place since 1933 and substitute an elitist, authoritarian system."

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2013/12/24/commentary/the-tragedy-of-thailands-politics/#.UyvpoJ2S1dg

[Gweiloman]

Gweiloman, maybe you can explain what you meant by own and control. It's like Suterp finance 1/3 of the Dem Party and he is on many arrest warrants and that he control all the policies of the Dem Party. It's the same?

I was merely quoting our dear rubl who alleges that Thaksin owns and controls PTP. That is why I started my post with the capitals, IF....

[Spalpeen]

So who won the Feb 2nd elections then??

.

PTP by a landslide........obviously. I'm surprised you didn't know that. If that wasn't the case then you would not now be seeing treasonous judges tying themselves in knots to block the will of the people.