Why is it so difficult to reach Nibbana?

[fabianfred]

TRD... You cannot possibly know what another person's experience, knowledge or practise is..... So stop running them down..... And you seem to be bragging about your own..... To be avoided!

Sent from my GT-N8000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[trd]

I am not running anyone down, nor am I bragging. They are your words which says more about you than me, who you know nothing about. I am simply giving advice as you are.

[rockyysdt]

It will force you to direct your attention inwards to the silence within, to the source which is emptiness.

Then you will have peace of mind.

There will be no more seeking. Life will flow naturally and spontaneously and will be underpinned by bliss.

There is no thought that appears in the mind, or thing that is perceived by the senses that can ever be the truth. It has never happened and will never happen.

To be here now and to be here as you are in your unconditoned state is all that is required.

Leading up to this point, do we experience moments/glimpses of such a state?

Perhaps, without actual experience, life without thought can only be imagined.

In such a state do we simply exist in bliss, whilst continuing to sustain our bodies, but do no more, as there is no longer anything to be done, or, are we able to continue to interact with others, and contribute to life?

Edited May 4, 2014 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

Fabianfred and Trd, don't you worry about any impression I might have that I'm being run down. I'm a big boy now. But it's nice of you to be concerned. I enjoy polite and intelligent conversation. My interest in Buddhism was renewed recently as a result of my accidentally coming across the Kalama Sutta, which I hadn't read before. I was a bit amazed that such advice could have been offered to a group of rather skeptical villagers about 2,500 years ago, so I began reading more about Buddhism.

I can identify with the Kalamas because I am also a rather skeptical sort of person. In fact, I would say that a good percentage of the current world population is in a similar position to those Kalamas, if not in an even more skeptical position, so I feel the Kalama Sutta is very relevant to modern times and should be given more publicity.

However, when I later came across the 10 Hindrances, I wondered if the 2nd hindrance, doubt or extreme skepticism, was something that applied to me in particular and could be an insurmountable problem.

Attachment to rites, rituals and ceremonies, the 3rd Hindrance, is not a problem for me at all. If friends didn't remind me of my birthday, it would probably pass me by. At some point it would probably register that my birthday was yesterday, or two days ago.

The ego, the 1st Hindrance, is a problem of course, but I don't consider I have a particularly inflated ego, just a rather a modest ego, perhaps in line with the Buddhist principle of 'the middle way', or 'everything in moderation'.

Nevertheless, to completely get rid of my ego, I imagine I would have to take very drastic measures such as giving away all my modest wealth and possessions to live in the forest, eating berries. That's something I just don't have the inclination to do. Or to be more honest, something I just don't have the courage to do.

[trd]

Rocky, I'm sure you have asked me this in the past, but I won't go looking for the post.

Yes, there are usually flashes which are useful for propelling one onwards. I call these fleeting samadhis. I can assure that it is a reality that you can sit for 30 minutes or an hour without a single thought entering your mind. When you want to defend the fort, it is only necessary to keep cutting down the invaders (thoughts). It doesn't matter if one comes at you with a sword or another with a gun. You just keep cutting them down and the fort will be yours.

When the mind ceases its endless chatter there will come a time in meditation when just the feeling of a rising thought is automatically repelled as being unwanted. This is difficult to describe. Being just wants to be itself and finds the inkling of a thought to be almost distasteful. You will bat it away. The purity of silence is enough.

No, you will never be a zombie. You can contribute to life in whatever way you feel. The parabdha karmas still have to be used up while you are in a body. The bliss of silence exists both on its own and permeates the relative as well. Even the mundane is interesting and fresh. Why? Because it is continually unfolding from the now, from the substratum of silence, emptiness. Life is there to be enjoyed. But it is an enjoyment without attachment or doership which is freedom. I'm reluctant to say this, but your relative existence gets some kind of positive support. I"ll leave it at that.

[trd]

Nevertheless, to completely get rid of my ego, I imagine I would have to take very drastic measures such as giving away all my modest wealth and possessions to live in the forest, eating berries. That's something I just don't have the inclination to do. Or to be more honest, something I just don't have the courage to do.

No. If you give everthing away and sit in the forest, your mind will still distract you. Perhaps more so than being in the city. What takes some courage is to realise you are nothing. It is the letting go of all concepts that liberates. You don't need a forest.

[VincentRJ]

Nevertheless, to completely get rid of my ego, I imagine I would have to take very drastic measures such as giving away all my modest wealth and possessions to live in the forest, eating berries. That's something I just don't have the inclination to do. Or to be more honest, something I just don't have the courage to do.

No. If you give everthing away and sit in the forest, your mind will still distract you. Perhaps more so than being in the city. What takes some courage is to realise you are nothing. It is the letting go of all concepts that liberates. You don't need a forest.

I have to admit that this concept is beyond my comprehension. You are expressing a concept that letting go of all concepts liberates one. Logically, according to you, I am liberated if I let go of the concept that letting go of all concepts liberates me. Do you see the problem?

[trd]

The egoless state is when you no longer identify yourself with the mind and body.

[trd]

Nevertheless, to completely get rid of my ego, I imagine I would have to take very drastic measures such as giving away all my modest wealth and possessions to live in the forest, eating berries. That's something I just don't have the inclination to do. Or to be more honest, something I just don't have the courage to do.

No. If you give everthing away and sit in the forest, your mind will still distract you. Perhaps more so than being in the city. What takes some courage is to realise you are nothing. It is the letting go of all concepts that liberates. You don't need a forest.

I have to admit that this concept is beyond my comprehension. You are expressing a concept that letting go of all concepts liberates one. Logically, according to you, I am liberated if I let go of the concept that letting go of all concepts liberates me. Do you see the problem?

If you let go of the concept that letting go of all concepts liberates you, you are simply replacing it with another concept that if you let go of all concepts you will be liberated.

[trd]

Do you have a practice Vincent. If so what is it.

[VincentRJ]

The egoless state is when you no longer identify yourself with the mind and body.

If I don't identify myself with the mind, how can I respond to you, or think about anything? If I don't identify with my body, how can I walk without tripping or falling, or how can I perform any manual task such as shaving my head and face?

[VincentRJ]

Do you have a practice Vincent. If so what is it.

I embrace whatever concept, and whatever advice, from people I consider wise and knowledgeable, provided it makes sense. And I believe this is in accordance with the Buddha's advice to the Kalamas.

[trd]

The egoless state is when you no longer identify yourself with the mind and body.

If I don't identify myself with the mind, how can I respond to you, or think about anything? If I don't identify with my body, how can I walk without tripping or falling, or how can I perform any manual task such as shaving my head and face?

Look at your hand. Is that who you are? No. What about you whole arm. Your legs. Is that who you are. What about your whole body. No that is not you.

Now what about the mind. Who is this person you call you? Is it a set of memories. Is it the last thought that came in to your mind. Does it have any thing to do with your status. Well that changes doesn't it. Who were you when you were 10 years old. Are you the same person now. Perhaps who you are is based on you future expectations. So who are you?

Edited May 4, 2014 by trd

[trd]

Do you have a practice Vincent. If so what is it.

I embrace whatever concept, and whatever advice, from people I consider wise and knowledgeable, provided it makes sense. And I believe this is in accordance with the Buddha's advice to the Kalamas.

Have you considered the non conceptual practice of meditation. It is after all central to Buddhist practice.

[VincentRJ]

Do you have a practice Vincent. If so what is it.

I embrace whatever concept, and whatever advice, from people I consider wise and knowledgeable, provided it makes sense. And I believe this is in accordance with the Buddha's advice to the Kalamas.

Have you considered the non conceptual practice of meditation. It is after all central to Buddhist practice.

I'm not experienced in meditation practices. I'm really still partially stuck in that first stage of the Eightfold path, trying to understand more clearly and with more certainty the purpose and value of the path. Gaining full control of one's passions, one's thoughts and all of one's emotions, seems a very worthwhile objective.

[trd]

You cannot gain control of your passions, thoughts and emotions by using the same instrument that generates them. By gaining control what do you mean. Do you want to suppress your thoughts or do you want to change them in some way.

[VincentRJ]

You cannot gain control of your passions, thoughts and emotions by using the same instrument that generates them. By gaining control what do you mean. Do you want to suppress your thoughts or do you want to change them in some way.

I want to be able to be unmoved by them if I choose to be unmoved. I want to be the master of myself. For example, in this modern era of the internet, and Facebook and Twitter, we get a lot of instances of young people who are the subject of abuse and bullying. Sometimes such people get very depressed and even commit suicide as a result.

Some of the teachings from the Buddha would help them greatly. I'm reminded of a story in which the Buddha was insulted by someone who called him a fake, another one of these useless layabouts preaching a load of <deleted>. The Buddha replied with the question, "If you buy someone a present and that person does not accept the present, who owns the present?" The abusive person admitted that he would still own the present. The Buddha then continued, "Likewise, I do not accept your comments about me. They are still yours. Please keep them."

I think that's wise, and good advice.

[trd]

That's very interesting. In a previous post you said,

>If I don't identify myself with the mind, how can I respond to you, or think about anything? If I don't identify with my body, how can I walk without tripping or falling, or how can I perform any manual task such as shaving my head and face?

And now you say,

>I want to be able to be unmoved by them if I choose to be unmoved. I want to be the master of myself.

There is an interesting contradiction in those two statements. Firstly, there is identification with the mind, but then in your wish to be unmoved or unattached to a particular thought or emotion, there is a recognition that there is something apart from the actual thought, something not attached to it, something that can be separate from being moved. Something that does not identify with that which is moving.

This is the key, and why meditation is so important, because it allows you to transcend the thought process and see that there is something unchanging from which mind emerges. A mere conceptual understanding is not it. It is important to appreciate that you cannot just suppress a thought directly. It is impossible because by the time you realise you want to suppress it, it has already appeared in the conscious mind. So meditation puts the attention just on one thing like breath or a mantra and this practice progressively quietens the mind. That's another big subject on its own.

[VincentRJ]

That's very interesting. In a previous post you said,

>If I don't identify myself with the mind, how can I respond to you, or think about anything? If I don't identify with my body, how can I walk without tripping or falling, or how can I perform any manual task such as shaving my head and face?

And now you say,

>I want to be able to be unmoved by them if I choose to be unmoved. I want to be the master of myself.

There is an interesting contradiction in those two statements. Firstly, there is identification with the mind, but then in your wish to be unmoved or unattached to a particular thought or emotion, there is a recognition that there is something apart from the actual thought, something not attached to it, something that can be separate from being moved. Something that does not identify with that which is moving.

This is the key, and why meditation is so important, because it allows you to transcend the thought process and see that there is something unchanging from which mind emerges. A mere conceptual understanding is not it. It is important to appreciate that you cannot just suppress a thought directly. It is impossible because by the time you realise you want to suppress it, it has already appeared in the conscious mind. So meditation puts the attention just on one thing like breath or a mantra and this practice progressively quietens the mind. That's another big subject on its own.

I'm not sure there's a contradiction here. Everything we do, think, perceive, see, hear, and feel, involves the mind. We're both now having a conversation which has to involve our minds. It's the emotions that are the problem.

I see a certain thread on ThaiVisa, "Is Thailand a Buddhist Country" that has just been closed down, or locked. Emotions got out of control. However, emotions are connected with the mind.

I don't see how one can sensibly and compassionately control something with which one has no identification. It doesn't make sense. To identify with, is to sympathise with, and to understand.

As I understand, one purpose of meditation is to objectively and dispassionately observe the thoughts that arise, and not resist them and not suppress them. This is in accordance with scientific principles of objectivity, which I admire.

[trd]

It is wrong to make a distinction between thoughts and emotions. They are one and the same.

From what you have said it is clear to me that you, as yet, have not appreciated the separateness of awareness and mind. You are not practising Buddhism if meditation is not part of your practice. What you seem to have is an interest in its intellectual aspects without the experiental. That is not enough.

[VincentRJ]

It is wrong to make a distinction between thoughts and emotions. They are one and the same.

From what you have said it is clear to me that you, as yet, have not appreciated the separateness of awareness and mind. You are not practising Buddhism if meditation is not part of your practice. What you seem to have is an interest in its intellectual aspects without the experiental. That is not enough.

You may be right, but I'm rather skeptical. A mathematician has thoughts as well as emotions. He probably sees beauty in mathematical forms, and gets excited about new equations. Such emotions are not separate from the mathematical thoughts, but nor are they the same.

On the other hand, when someone commits a murder on the spur of the moment, or a crime of passion, is it not a case of emotion overriding thought? If someone commits a premeditated murder, then maybe I would concede that the thought and the emotion are one.

[fabianfred]

Vincent ... what trd means when he talks about simplicity is ...that the heart of vipassana meditation is...just going around living your daily life... and watching everything about yourself like an observer. All thoughts as they appear... all actions... movements...breathing...just observe like you are outside yourself. No judging..just watching and seeing (with your inner eye... mindfulness).

Ajarn Chah used to say .. 'Let Go!'

As for doubt as a hinderance. It means the same as Right view. As followers of the Buddha we should be confident in his teachings. Confident that there is rebirth, karma, many realms ...that the Buddha did attain Nibbana and that it actually exists and is an escape from rebirth and suffering. If you still have doubt then perhaps you could be converted to another religion. You need to have unshakeable conviction ...no doubts that this is the correct path. and the way to get that is by experiential knowledge... wisdom..which comes from practice of meditation.

[RandomSand]

Nevertheless, to completely get rid of my ego, I imagine I would have to take very drastic measures such as giving away all my modest wealth and possessions to live in the forest, eating berries. That's something I just don't have the inclination to do. Or to be more honest, something I just don't have the courage to do.

No. If you give everthing away and sit in the forest, your mind will still distract you. Perhaps more so than being in the city. What takes some courage is to realise you are nothing. It is the letting go of all concepts that liberates. You don't need a forest.

I have to admit that this concept is beyond my comprehension. You are expressing a concept that letting go of all concepts liberates one. Logically, according to you, I am liberated if I let go of the concept that letting go of all concepts liberates me. Do you see the problem?

You're asking some very direct and meaningful questions which I think have merit.

Just to address this one:

The mind is said to have a natural state. So you have this concept "I must let go"... and like you said as long as you have that concept then one concept still remains. However; what if you really were at the stage where that was the "final" concept? What would happen if you forgot about that concept? It would be gone wouldn't it ?

[rockyysdt]

You may be right, but I'm rather skeptical. A mathematician has thoughts as well as emotions. He probably sees beauty in mathematical forms, and gets excited about new equations. Such emotions are not separate from the mathematical thoughts, but nor are they the same.

On the other hand, when someone commits a murder on the spur of the moment, or a crime of passion, is it not a case of emotion overriding thought? If someone commits a premeditated murder, then maybe I would concede that the thought and the emotion are one.

Hi V.

It's not a problem to remain skeptical until the solution appears to you.

That's not to say you should avoid the practice.

Performing the practice is the only way you are able to test what is being taught.

In terms of completely eliminating thought, don't let this worry you.

For you to achieve such a level in which you are able to live without thought may take years of dedicated practice on several levels if at all.

Practice would include:

Mindfulness (continually observing your body, thoughts, feelings, & the outside world) without attachment.

Sitting Meditation.

Living an ethical life within the precepts.

In the meantime as TRD indicated, dedicated meditation practice will yield short periods (1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour) of samahdi, a state without thought.

We can view such states with concern is living without mind/thought sounds very alien to our experience.

I've read many fail to take the final plunge for fear of death.

What actually dies is the ego/mind which is conditioned and impermanent anyway.

Our ego refuses to let go and will place obstacles in the way.

What you and I think of as us is a construct.

We are not who we believe we are.

What you would be doing is quietening your ego to reveal what is hidden.

I recommend that you learn basic meditation & mindfulness practices and give them a go.

These should be performed regularly.

Most will indicate that it's difficult to find time to sit in our busy lives, but I can't find anyone who can come up with an excuse not to practice mindfulness.

I have experienced fleeting moments of being without thought.

The experience I had is very difficult for me to put in words.

What I can say is that during this time my experience dwarfs anything I have ever experienced in life.

In this state there was no sense of time.

Everything appeared bathed in light and color so vivid and vibrant.

I understood.

What others will teach is that the Buddhas path is experiential.

Words cannot describe or explain it.

The only way you can understand what TRD and others are attempting to convey is to actually experience it for your self.

Once you experience you will know.

Edited May 5, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

Nevertheless, to completely get rid of my ego, I imagine I would have to take very drastic measures such as giving away all my modest wealth and possessions to live in the forest, eating berries. That's something I just don't have the inclination to do. Or to be more honest, something I just don't have the courage to do.

No. If you give everthing away and sit in the forest, your mind will still distract you. Perhaps more so than being in the city. What takes some courage is to realise you are nothing. It is the letting go of all concepts that liberates. You don't need a forest.

I have to admit that this concept is beyond my comprehension. You are expressing a concept that letting go of all concepts liberates one. Logically, according to you, I am liberated if I let go of the concept that letting go of all concepts liberates me. Do you see the problem?

You're asking some very direct and meaningful questions which I think have merit.

Just to address this one:

The mind is said to have a natural state. So you have this concept "I must let go"... and like you said as long as you have that concept then one concept still remains. However; what if you really were at the stage where that was the "final" concept? What would happen if you forgot about that concept? It would be gone wouldn't it ?

How can you forget a thought? A thought arises and disappears and becomes a memory. You think you have forgotten, but at some time in the future it pops into your mind again as a new thought. This is entirely beyond your control. That is why Buddha gave vipassana to the world.

[trd]

You may be right, but I'm rather skeptical. A mathematician has thoughts as well as emotions. He probably sees beauty in mathematical forms, and gets excited about new equations. Such emotions are not separate from the mathematical thoughts, but nor are they the same.

On the other hand, when someone commits a murder on the spur of the moment, or a crime of passion, is it not a case of emotion overriding thought? If someone commits a premeditated murder, then maybe I would concede that the thought and the emotion are one.

Hi V.

It's not a problem to remain skeptical until the solution appears to you.

That's not to say you should avoid the practice.

Performing the practice is the only way you are able to test what is being taught.

In terms of completely eliminating thought, don't let this worry you.

For you to achieve such a level in which you are able to live without thought may take years of dedicated practice on several levels if at all.

Practice would include:

Mindfulness (continually observing your body, thoughts, feelings, & the outside world) without attachment.

Sitting Meditation.

Living an ethical life within the precepts.

In the meantime as TRD indicated, dedicated meditation practice will yield short periods (1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour) of samahdi, a state without thought.

We can view such states with concern is living without mind/thought sounds very alien to our experience.

I've read many fail to take the final plunge for fear of death.

What actually dies is the ego/mind which is conditioned and impermanent anyway.

Our ego refuses to let go and will place obstacles in the way.

What you and I think of as us is a construct.

We are not who we believe we are.

What you would be doing is quietening your ego to reveal what is hidden.

I recommend that you learn basic meditation & mindfulness practices and give them a go.

These should be performed regularly.

Most will indicate that it's difficult to find time to sit in our busy lives, but I can't find anyone who can come up with an excuse not to practice mindfulness.

I have experienced fleeting moments of being without thought.

The experience I had is very difficult for me to put in words.

What I can say is that during this time my experience dwarfs anything I have ever experienced in life.

In this state there was no sense of time.

Everything appeared bathed in light and color so vivid and vibrant.

I understood.

What others will teach is that the Buddhas path is experiential.

Words cannot describe or explain it.

The only way you can understand what TRD and others are attempting to convey is to actually experience it for your self.

Once you experience you will know.

That is beautifully put Rocky.

[RandomSand]

The mind is said to have a natural state. So you have this concept "I must let go"... and like you said as long as you have that concept then one concept still remains. However; what if you really were at the stage where that was the "final" concept? What would happen if you forgot about that concept? It would be gone wouldn't it ?

How can you forget a thought? A thought arises and disappears and becomes a memory. You think you have forgotten, but at some time in the future it pops into your mind again as a new thought. This is entirely beyond your control. That is why Buddha gave vipassana to the world.

The thought becomes a memory ?

Are you sure about that ?

Your statement presumes that dharmakaya is organised in a linear fashion like samsaric time and space.

What is it that thinks and where are these memories stored ?

Edited May 5, 2014 by RandomSand

[VincentRJ]

The mind is said to have a natural state. So you have this concept "I must let go"... and like you said as long as you have that concept then one concept still remains. However; what if you really were at the stage where that was the "final" concept? What would happen if you forgot about that concept? It would be gone wouldn't it ?

How can you forget a thought? A thought arises and disappears and becomes a memory. You think you have forgotten, but at some time in the future it pops into your mind again as a new thought. This is entirely beyond your control. That is why Buddha gave vipassana to the world.

The thought becomes a memory ?

Are you sure about that ?

Your statement presumes that dharmakaya is organised in a linear fashion like samsaric time and space.

What is it that thinks and where are these memories stored ?

According to principles of neuroscience, our memories have a physical basis in the mind, consisting of neurons and connecting synapses. New memories are stored through the production of new proteins. Memories are lost through the degradation and breakdown of such proteins.

One fascinating aspect of the mind, which I believe would relate to Buddhist practices of meditation, is its broad arrangement into right and left hemispheres. Normally, the left hemisphere of our brain deals mainly with practical matters, concerns and worries etc, and the right side of the brain deals mainly with religious and creative issues.

I recall some years ago listening to a TED talk by a female neuroscientist who recounted her experience of a stroke in the left side of her brain, just as it happened in real time. She was awake when the stroke occurred, and like a true scientist, observed dispassionately what was happening in her mind as the stroke took place.

The stroke didn't occur suddenly and finally, like an on/off switch, but rather there was a waxing and waning. As the blood supply to the left part of her brain was cut off (through a clot, presumably), she felt a great sense of peace and joy, even euphoria. Then, as the blood supply partially restored itself, she began to feel more normal, more worried and more stressed about her condition. Then as the blood clot took effect again, she began to experience the joy and calm again.

As I listened to this talk, it occurred to me that this neuroscientist was experiencing, for brief moments, the very state of mind that millions of sadhus, yogis and Buddhists have been searching for during the past millennia.

When a person frees himself of all possessions and material concerns, to wander freely as a sadhu, or to lead the life of a Buddhist monk, he is taking the first major step to reduce the activity of the left side of the brain.

With no household to maintain, no bills to pay, no investments to worry about, no job-security to worry about, no car maintenance to worry about, no children's future and/or their bad behaviour to worry about, no reputation (ego) to worry about, his left brain becomes redundant, perhaps partly analagous to having a stroke in the left side of the brain.

Having attained such a state of left-brain redundancy, the right hemisphere is free to produce feelings of calm, peace and joy, perhaps even Nibbana.

[trd]

The mind is said to have a natural state. So you have this concept "I must let go"... and like you said as long as you have that concept then one concept still remains. However; what if you really were at the stage where that was the "final" concept? What would happen if you forgot about that concept? It would be gone wouldn't it ?

How can you forget a thought? A thought arises and disappears and becomes a memory. You think you have forgotten, but at some time in the future it pops into your mind again as a new thought. This is entirely beyond your control. That is why Buddha gave vipassana to the world.

The thought becomes a memory ?

Are you sure about that ?

Your statement presumes that dharmakaya is organised in a linear fashion like samsaric time and space.

What is it that thinks and where are these memories stored ?

Is it not your own experience that many new thoughts arise related to apparent previous thoughts and experiences? Hence going back to Vincent's point, he will never be able to forget the last concept in his mind in order to be free of it because new thoughts will always arise until mind is transcended completely.

You ask what is it that thinks. The answer is that "I" think. But when you investigate what this "I" is, it is revealed to be an illusion. There is no one who thinks as there is no doer. As "no mind" is your natural state, then mind is seen to be unreal. This would also apply to a memory. It all depends on your perspective. If a thought appears, you may see it is a recollection of a past event and call it a memory if you identify yourself as a person who is a mind and body.

But in your natural state of pure unbounded awareness, any thought that appears from emptiness is immediately consigned to the past because it is not possible to be totally in the unmanifest now if you are thinking. "No mind" is outside of space and time. So in terms of your true state, any thought is already a memory. It is already in the past. The thinking mind can never be in the present moment.

[beautifulthailand99]

Ajarn Chah speaks on the subject.