Jump to content

Did Thai steal from Khmer culture?


Asianbloke

Recommended Posts

Casualposter is entangled in a huge forest and trees problem that no amount of cutting/pasting will clear.

As for your rubbish bombast, I once again stand by my initial statement.

The wasps' nest in Thailand's south is a British legacy.

Aside from never knowing when to leave the bar stewards never cleaned after themselves.

They do leave an impressive trail of blaming the victim though.

Witness Palestine, Kenya, Iran, India, Ireland, South Africa. I could go on but everyone here seems to get it but you.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You can stand by your garbage to your heart's content, but it won't change the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.

Pattani has been "troublesome" since the 1630s.

At one point -- in 1678, in fact -- King Narai wanted to give it away to the British East India Company. The Brits went there, but they didn't want it.

Pattani was never a British colony, nor was it a British protectorate, nor was it ever administered in any way, shape or form by representatives of the British empire.

The troubles in Pattani are NOT a British legacy. If you really understood what's behind the Pattani insurgency, you'd see just how stupid you look.

Go away. Learn about Thailand. Come back when you feel you might be worth taking seriously.

Until then, kindly refrain from posting rubbish.[\quote]

Complete, utter bombast and piffle.

The festering ethnic carbuncle that is Pattini precisely the brand of geopolitical tectonics that Britain has fostered and fomented everywhere she's dragged her mapmakers.

Your complete blindness to the real issues here is evident from your rudeness and your intransigence.

Do step back from your David Wyatt for a moment and take a few deep breaths.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any British thinker, or scientist or artist (with the notable exceptions of Shakespeare, Dr. Johnson, Bertrand Russell, Thomas a Becket, and of course Mr. Pastry) . . . . . . any British thinker who's dared to say anything of significance has been figuratively burned at the stake.

They even burned that poor girl Jean d'Arc with nary a second thought.

Just look 'round the sports bar any time you've got their sacred fough-bough on telly.

OMFG

Loony alert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"At least well-educated Europeans are aware of the fact they were still living in mud huts and wearing animal skins while Islamic culture had well-developed science and higher maths, arts music, was going through its enlightenment hundreds of years before it started to penetrate into Europe, ending their "dark ages"."

This is simply not true. Islamic culture was in its heyday (scientifically speaking) in the 12th century - one could hardly say Europe lived in mud huts at that point in history! Remember Islam didn't even exist until the 600's - Rome had come and gone by then. The dark ages were just beginning in the 600's ( saeculum obscurum - 6th to 13th century in Europe). There were several crusades and a lot of fighting going on in the Holy Lands during this period (indeed Muhammad was born into war and was a war leader).

You surely must have some knowledge of the true great in science, maths and art - Greece! And we are talking from 3000BC (and even then they lived in stone houses!). Add Rome somewhat later to that - but still well before Islam even existed. That's just Europe - the Chinese and Indian cultures pre date Greece too - with art, science and maths. Add the Egyptians, great artists, skilled builders and the inventors of PI and pre-greko-geometry.

It was the interchange between nascent European seekers of knowledge and the Islamic world - not talking religion here but geography, trade routes and cultures - that ALLOWED them access to the works of past civilizations.

The church actively repressed research into secular knowledge, but the crusades brought communications between the two domains and - I'm not saying it was all Persian/Arabic-original knowledge, but it was that cross-fertilization, especially with Moorish Spain that enabled Egyptian, Indian, Byzantine, Greek and even Roman knowledge to re-enter European collective consciousness and stimulated the growth in knowledge that led to the renaissance in later centuries. I believe any Chinese influences came later. . .

Re standard of living, ordinary citizens' lives in northern Europe were most primitive compared to those in Islamic-dominated areas in the centuries following the fall of Rome.

The improvement in future centuries of architecture of the castles and cathedrals came directly from exposure due to the crusades, the glorious Gothic styles of France and Britain would not have been possible without the Arabic pointed arch and flying buttresses.

Agree mostly with this - one has to be careful using the term "Islamic" when we just mean people from areas that are now Islamic. There were no Muslims (Islamics) following the fall of Rome - not for another 200 years or there abouts. At this time most Arabs were of the Hebrew faith - a bit like an awful lot of Scientists today.

Byzantine was a Greek city, later Constantinople during Roman times and now Istanbul. It wasn't Islamic until 1450s as part of the Ottoman Empire.

Indeed, the Islamic Empire caused an awful lot of damage to cultures and history (especially in Egypt where even the language was forced out of the population - as to utter a word meant death - it cost the world almost 1500 years before we could decipher the texts of the Egyptians thanks to that single event).

If we are talking just geography, then Mesopotamia and Samaria were the cradles of civilisation - the method of calculating dates and recording event still defy us today (we can do the date calculations - but not with their level of tech or supposed knowledge - the use of knots in a string to record events and numbers still confounds us).

The Romans built arches too - and the Ancient Greeks. The true domes though, AFAIK are a Roman invention (they certainly built them), though Corbel Domes are much older (as are Corbel Arches).

The styles may well have been copied though - the Chinese styles certainly were later on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try to tell even an educated Thai that chillies (chilli peppers) were brought to Asia by the Portugese only about 700 years ago and originated in South America, they will probably think you are misinformed. When I bring up this particular subject and get disbelief, I ask why is black pepper "prik Thai" and chilli just "prik"? Because "prik" is not Thai. Of course, it's only the thinkers that then start to wonder and possibly believe.

I'm not a Thai-basher, but I can see that they can be, generally speaking, quite insular and I can also see that they seem to have been indoctrinated with pro-Thai teachings that are not always factual.

But then, look at Japanese history books taught in schools....the Koreans are quite peeved at how history is distorted.

To the victor goes the right to write history!

your wrong the British brought the Chilly to Thailand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone who's had many SOs that are first-language Khmer Thai nationals, I have to agree with the OP about this issue.

Of course every culture grows out of the ones that came before, and India is certainly the root of many cherished parts of cultures in this part of the world.

But that's pretty irrelevant to anything important by today's standards.

In the process of building up Thai nationalism, the powers that be - Central Thai culture - is an imperialist force, using the "education" system to systematically denigrate and wipe out competing local cultures.

Khmer-speakers aren't even aware that their language has its own writing system, have no idea that their culture is older than, their history richer than that of the Thais.

Only recently has it become possible to even study these languages as an academic discipline at the tertiary level, still isn't offered in primary or secondary.

Thailand is a complete failure if you value multi-culturalism.

Yes, the policy of Thaification is to be blamed. The Muslim unrest in the southern Thai states is a glaring example of Thai policies gone wrong.

Actually Lokesh the Thai policy in the South is a British legacy.

It's typical of a departing colonial entity to leave plenty of opportunity for wars like this.

The British at their best.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

I guess you are right for I can see parallels of the British legacy in Indian history too. India's independence from British came at a price - a separate Islamic country of Pakistan was craved out of Indian territory ( not to mention the unrest with mass-scale cross-country migration that ensued )

Sorry, you need to read up on your own country's history!

In early 1947, Britain announced the decision to end its rule in India. In June 1947, the nationalist leaders of British India: including Jawaharlal Nehru and Abul Kalam Azad representing the Congress, Jinnah representing the Muslim League, and Master Tara Singh representing the Sikhs - agreed to the proposed terms of transfer of power and independence.

The modern state of Pakistan was established on 14 August 1947 in the eastern and northwestern regions of British India, where there was a Muslim majority. It comprised the provinces of Balochistan, East Bengal, the North-West Frontier Province, West Punjab and Sindh. The partition of the Punjab and Bengal provinces led to communal riots across India and Pakistan; millions of Muslims moved to Pakistan and millions of Hindus and Sikhs moved to India. Dispute over Jammu and Kashmir led to the First Kashmir War.

Ghandi was talking to Jinnah in the mid 40's - it is said that he wanted him to be the first President of India. It was Ghandi's death that took away the last chance for a unified India - and it was the most powerful Indians in the country that signed, whilst still under British rule as part of the independence talks (Britain had already stated they were leaving - WW II had made it too expensive to stay and American pressure to dissolve the Empire was hard to bear what with the need for Patriot loans) - it was nothing to do with Britain leaving. Indeed, they spent a year leaving putting in place a working government and system behind them - it was the Indians that started fighting each other after that!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

your wrong the British brought the Chilly to Thailand.

Source please

The tugas were exporting chili from Brazil hundreds of years before the Dutch and Brits broke their monopoly.

In fact the Brits in India in the 1800s thought chili was native to there when in fact the tugas had brought it to Goa as early as the 15th century.

Most likely if it wasn't them it was arabic or indian traders who were all over this part of the world long before any Brit ever showed up.

Edited by wym
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Radcliffe Line was published on 17 August 1947 as a boundary demarcation line between India and Pakistan upon the Partition of India. The Radcliffe Line was named after its architect, Sir Cyril Radcliffe, who as chairman of the Border Commissions was charged with equitably dividing 175,000 square miles (450,000 km2) of territory with 88 million people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

casualposter said:

Why not discuss the impact which Arabic and Persian culture has had on Thailand.

The Thai language has several Persian loanwords. How many do you know?

@ casualposter

Please feel free to discuss the Arabic loan words in Thai language, I know a couple of them.

However, if you study Thai language properly, you will realised the polysyllabic Sanskrit words in Thai language far (yes, far) outnumber the Arabic ones.

I am not here establish superiority of any culture but to state the truth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Complete, utter bombast and piffle.

I don't really know which stuff are you on, but at least we can learn some (white Rhodesian ?) slang with your ramblings.

Hope is not British derived ?

Perfectly fine English.

Although, with the previous post in mind, I wonder if it is perfectly fine Sanskrit too!

Edited by Seastallion
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

casualposter said:

Why not discuss the impact which Arabic and Persian culture has had on Thailand.

The Thai language has several Persian loanwords. How many do you know?

@ casualposter

Please feel free to discuss the Arabic loan words in Thai language, I know a couple of them.

However, if you study Thai language properly, you will realised the polysyllabic Sanskrit words in Thai language far (yes, far) outnumber the Arabic ones.

I am not here establish superiority of any culture but to state the truth.

Lolz makes a topic trying to quietly talk up the greatness of India. Then posts how he is not trying to establish superiority of any culture. Fail..... Quick trivia if you scroll through your posts. How many times do you type the word India or make a reference to it? wow kinda obvious what you are doing no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an interesting thread. I had no idea that Songkran was taken from an Indian festival. Does the Indian version also include water fighting or was that just added by the Thais?

All this stuff gets misdirected from its origins and then corrupted and vulgarized by popular custom.

Just look at what's happened to Easter and Christmas.

Ramadan not so much.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

Link to comment
Share on other sites

casualposter said:" Why not discuss the impact which Arabic and Persian culture has had on Thailand. "

Does anyone know if the once powerful Bunnag family has influence in modern Thailand?

I posted a set of Persian loanwords yesterday, but my post seems to have vanished like a puff of smoke. Maybe I'll add the link again later.

The Bunnag family still has influence. Remember the guy who called the coup which ousted Taksin? He was Commander-in-Chief of the Royal Thai Army. His name is Sonthi Bunyaratkalin. He's part of the Bunnag family.

The Bunnag's are powerful. They operate behind the scenes in the way they've always done.

General Chavalit Yongchaiyut, a retired army commander and former PM, is also a Thai of Persian descent.
Read more on page 82:
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an interesting thread. I had no idea that Songkran was taken from an Indian festival. Does the Indian version also include water fighting or was that just added by the Thais?

The Indian festival of Makar Sangkranti doesn't include water splashing. We have another Indian spring festival of Holi which involves splashing of water, plain and coloured and yes, all the water fighting with those ubiquitous water guns.

The beautiful annual Thai festival of Loy Krathong is supposed to have Hindu origins when floating flower lantern-baskets were released on the River Ganges as thanksgiving to the river.

It is a DAILY evening affair here in some holy Indian cities till date and quite a spectacle to behold!

Edited by lokesh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

casualposter said:

Why not discuss the impact which Arabic and Persian culture has had on Thailand.

The Thai language has several Persian loanwords. How many do you know?

@ casualposter

Please feel free to discuss the Arabic loan words in Thai language, I know a couple of them.

However, if you study Thai language properly, you will realised the polysyllabic Sanskrit words in Thai language far (yes, far) outnumber the Arabic ones.

I am not here establish superiority of any culture but to state the truth.

Lolz makes a topic trying to quietly talk up the greatness of India. Then posts how he is not trying to establish superiority of any culture. Fail..... Quick trivia if you scroll through your posts. How many times do you type the word India or make a reference to it? wow kinda obvious what you are doing no?

I am not here to sing hymns of praise for India. Had it been the case, I could have written several other things about strong Indian influence on Thai culture (via Khmer I guess), even the Thai calendar (month & weekday names), etc etc etc etc........

But I write only what is necessary. We are here to discuss the Khmer influence on Thai.

Edited by lokesh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are here to discuss the Khmer influence on Thai.

No, according to your OP we are here to discus:

"Thais have borrowed much from Cambodian culture & civilisation but WITHOUT giving adequate/proper acknowledgement".

AND

"isn't it time that Thailand should give Khmer their due?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We are here to discuss the Khmer influence on Thai.

No, according to your OP we are here to discus:

"Thais have borrowed much from Cambodian culture & civilisation but WITHOUT giving adequate/proper acknowledgement".

AND

"isn't it time that Thailand should give Khmer their due?"

Yes, so what's wrong with that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know why you are all getting your knickers in a twist. This is a harmless thread which if anything serves to educate people. Are there many Thais on this forum? It would be good to get their views on some of these posts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

//wolf5370 said:

Indeed, the Islamic Empire caused an awful lot of damage to cultures and history (especially in Egypt where even the language was forced out of the population - as to utter a word meant death - it cost the world almost 1500 years before we could decipher the texts of the Egyptians thanks to that single event).//

@ wolf5370

Yes, I agree and it continues unabated till date. Recently, prominent Muslim clerics in Egypt have called for the demolition of Egypt’s Pyramids, the 'symbols of paganism'. (similar to the move which destroyed the magnificient Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanistan in 2001)

In the past, many Egyptian antiquities were destroyed as relics of infidelity including the Library of Alexandria itself - deemed a repository of pagan knowledge contradicting the Koran.

History is laden with examples of Islamists destroying their own pre-Islamic heritage including Arabia’s Kaba temple, transforming it into a mosque.

Edited by lokesh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A great deal of Thai culture comes from India,see all the Ganesh statues,the monks chanting in Sanskrit, etc,also a large part of Thailand was once part of the Khmer empire so as the Thais migrated from southern China some 1000 years ago i would argue most of their culture is a fusion of Indian,Khmer and peoples that were already here and of course what they brought with them,however this is true for many parts of the world so really should come as no surprise,as for them not giving credit to these other cultures i feel is due to the education system,which seems to promote Thailand as the greatest country of all time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

History is laden with examples of Islamists destroying their own pre-Islamic heritage including Arabias Kaba temple, transforming it into a mosque.

One can read

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gi0_vandalism.htm

for a brief compendium of Christian religious vandalism. The website is certainly biased, but the facts are true. An image comment says "the phenomenon of widespread religious vandalism is common to all monotheistic religions", now to be fair I would cross out the word "monotheistic" from that, all religions and even atheism have been largely destructive.

Edited by paz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

History is laden with examples of Islamists destroying their own pre-Islamic heritage including Arabias Kaba temple, transforming it into a mosque.

One can read

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gi0_vandalism.htm

for a brief compendium of Christian religious vandalism. The website is certainly biased, but the facts are true. An image comment says "the phenomenon of widespread religious vandalism is common to all monotheistic religions", now to be fair I would cross out the word "monotheistic" from that, all religions and even atheism have been largely destructive.

Well, a similar statement was made by the second president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan:

“The intolerance of narrow monotheism is written in letters of blood across the history of man from the time when first the tribes of Israel burst into the land of Canaan. The worshippers of the one Jealous God are egged on to aggressive wars against people of alien cults. They invoke Divine Sanction for the cruelties inflicted on the conquered. The spirit of old Israel is inherited by Christianity and Islam. ''

Link to comment
Share on other sites

History is laden with examples of Islamists destroying their own pre-Islamic heritage including Arabias Kaba temple, transforming it into a mosque.

One can read

http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gi0_vandalism.htm

for a brief compendium of Christian religious vandalism. The website is certainly biased, but the facts are true. An image comment says "the phenomenon of widespread religious vandalism is common to all monotheistic religions", now to be fair I would cross out the word "monotheistic" from that, all religions and even atheism have been largely destructive.

Well, a similar statement was made by the second president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan:

“The intolerance of narrow monotheism is written in letters of blood across the history of man from the time when first the tribes of Israel burst into the land of Canaan. The worshippers of the one Jealous God are egged on to aggressive wars against people of alien cults. They invoke Divine Sanction for the cruelties inflicted on the conquered. The spirit of old Israel is inherited by Christianity and Islam. ''

I would just like to point out that some religions are far more tolerant as compared to others.

Polytheistic religions with pluralistic beliefs like Hinduism has always held that there are several routes to reach one God or God can be worshipped in multiple forms hence allowing them to be more flexible and tolerant to diverse views as compared to those which advocate One Jealous God while labelling others as False Gods.

Edited by lokesh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, a similar statement was made by the second president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan:

The intolerance of narrow monotheism is written in letters of blood across the history of man from the time when first the tribes of Israel burst into the land of Canaan. The worshippers of the one Jealous God are egged on to aggressive wars against people of alien cults. They invoke Divine Sanction for the cruelties inflicted on the conquered. The spirit of old Israel is inherited by Christianity and Islam. ''

Hopefully present and future India governments will also act about the religious violence in their own country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India

No religion is exempt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, a similar statement was made by the second president of India, Dr. Radhakrishnan:

The intolerance of narrow monotheism is written in letters of blood across the history of man from the time when first the tribes of Israel burst into the land of Canaan. The worshippers of the one Jealous God are egged on to aggressive wars against people of alien cults. They invoke Divine Sanction for the cruelties inflicted on the conquered. The spirit of old Israel is inherited by Christianity and Islam. ''

Hopefully present and future India governments will also act about the religious violence in their own country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India

No religion is exempt.

Thanks for the link. However, you can yourself see the widespread extermination of Hindus & culture by Islamic rulers at that link.

And, please don't confuse incidents of communal tension with a well-planned out strategy to exterminate a particular religion, civilization and its culture.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.





×
×
  • Create New...