Checks begin on foreigners working in Phuket dive industry

[sirchai]

How many of you have been working as diving instructors today?

Edited April 3, 2014 by sirchai

[manhood]

Great to see how active police work on things that are sooooo very unimportant compare to many other things they should look after: good they warn all and everybody days before!!!!!!!!! Good luck for sucessfull work!!!!!!!!!!!

[Milanman]

It is interesting that a board member like NomadJoe who has an opinion on many topics and who works in the dive industry has been so quiet on this subject. I wonder why?

[NamKangMan]

@ stevenl

The problem I see, and I am not in the industry, is you were fine to be operating illegally, if you were prepared to pay police a corrupt payment, on a monthly basis.

Those illegal operators, did not need work permits, therefore do not have to employ four Thai's. Given that the corrupt monthly payment, calculated yearly, is a lot less than the cost of a work permit, proper company structure and the salary of four Thai's, it was financially beneficial for them to work illegally.

Therefore, the corrupt police, effictively created a financial incentive to work in the dive industry, on Phuket, illegally, rather than legally. As you have said yourself, you are legal, and do not pay. They are illegal, and pay. In business, it's normal to minimise your expenses, and if paying bribes is cheaper, I'm sure many chose that method of operation.

So, there must be an obvious financial benefit to be illegal. If it cost more to be illegal, rather than legal, these operators would simply become legal, because it's cheaper.

This corruption now creates an unlevel playing field in the industry, as the illegals may now be able to offer a cheaper service than a legal operator, such as yourself.

Really, it all goes back to what is killing Phuket, and that's corruption.

We basically have corrupt police indirectly in control of a large part of the dive industry on Phuket, taking monthly bribes, which can effect the pricing structure and competitiveness of all operators within the dive industry.

These corrupt police have no idea of things like supply and demand, free market trade etc etc. All they possess is criminality and greed.

Once again, so much power is being held by the corrupt few on Phuket.

I would like to say all illegals should be fined and deported, but we all know that is never going to happen because there is too much corruption money involved.

This little inquiry will disappear and it will be back to business as usual soon enough, and as usual with all things here, no positive change implemented.

Just an outsiders view, looking in.

You make the mistake of jumping from 'benefits' to 'financial benefits', there are more reasons.

But in the main I agree with you.

But you can easily take it one step further. On Phuket many companies are fully legal with regards to workpermits, company setup, etc.. In other places, think Phi Phi, Ao Nang, Koh Tao and even Khao Lak, being legal is the exception.

As I said, I'm not in the industry. What are some of the other reasons you are talking about?

I have no doubt dive operators have an easier life in the places you mention. A lot of BS that we discuss on this forum only happens on

Planet Phuket.

[NamKangMan]

I will be very short: those that work illegally in the diving industry, screw the world for expats who got all the papers correct! Teachers, dive instructors, what else, working without the correct papers make life difficult for the rest of expats, the majority. Get your papers or stay out of the business, clear as that!

I am 65, live here on correct retirement extension, have a very comfortable double pension, but have to proof each year that I do not work,.... thanks to you guys!

This case is great: illegal workers are extorted by police (to avoid legal action). Then they make the immortal blunder to complain against that same police. So now employment office will check the papers, som nam na. You don't have a WP? Then get out of that job. You got the right papers? Don't worry. Simple as that.

"I am 65, live here on correct retirement extension, have a very comfortable double pension, but have to proof each year that I do not work,.... thanks to you guys!" - sad thing is, you will still have to show proof of income, which "apparently" proves you are also not working, even when you are 90 years of age, should you live that long.

[stevenl]

I have no doubt dive operators have an easier life in the places you mention. A lot of BS that we discuss on this forum only happens on

Planet Phuket.

Yes, in this case bullshit because things are done much more according to the rules than in other places in Thailand. That is what it is, but I'm sure that is not what you mean.

All illegal is a lot easier to deal with than 80% legal.

Edited April 3, 2014 by stevenl

[SanukJoeII]

I will be very short: those that work illegally in the diving industry, screw the world for expats who got all the papers correct! Teachers, dive instructors, what else, working without the correct papers make life difficult for the rest of expats, the majority. Get your papers or stay out of the business, clear as that!

I am 65, live here on correct retirement extension, have a very comfortable double pension, but have to proof each year that I do not work,.... thanks to you guys!

This case is great: illegal workers are extorted by police (to avoid legal action). Then they make the immortal blunder to complain against that same police. So now employment office will check the papers, som nam na. You don't have a WP? Then get out of that job. You got the right papers? Don't worry. Simple as that.

"I am 65, live here on correct retirement extension, have a very comfortable double pension, but have to proof each year that I do not work,.... thanks to you guys!" - sad thing is, you will still have to show proof of income, which "apparently" proves you are also not working, even when you are 90 years of age, should you live that long.

Proof of income is not the same as proof of not working. Proof of income by a letter from your embassy, stating you receive xxx pension a year. Also a bit useless as pensions (at least mine) are life long, but ok, each year a letter by embassy is no problem.

But proving you don't work is done by checking your bank book (foreign, Thai or both), seeing how much money comes in and how much goes out. If too little goes out it means you have extra income... Personnally I don't like Immigration officers sniffing in my bank book, I consider it private. But thanks to loads of illegally working expats and long-time tourists we have that problem, without those "illegals" officers would just believe that my income is sufficient for a confortable way of life....

[NamKangMan]

I have no doubt dive operators have an easier life in the places you mention. A lot of BS that we discuss on this forum only happens on

Planet Phuket.

Yes, in this case bullshit because things are done much more according to the rules than in other places in Thailand. That is what it is, but I'm sure that is not what you mean.

All illegal is a lot easier to deal with than 80% legal.

What about the "underwater tour guiding" issue?

"If the DC and instructor are smart they'll never know how certified the divers are. After all there are many forms of continuing education." - these are your words, not mine, advocating working illegally.

So, do you ever do any work outside the perimeter of your work permit, even a minor infringement? I suggest you do? You mention "carrying gear." Isn't that "labour work?" You do not have to be a trained dive instructor to "carry gear." A Thai can do that.

"Labour work" is right at number one on the list of occupations closed to foreigners, and "labour work" can be just about anything and everything, work permit, or not. The law is made that way, to be rid of you, or extort you, whenever they want.

I believe you when you say your documents are in order and you are "legal" but there's such a grey area in the labour laws here and we all know the BiB like to extort people using the grey area, and what do most do, PAY, because it's easier, most probably cheaper, and they remain here continuing their business activity.

The labour laws here are designed to be used by the authorities for their purposes, not for the protection of so called law abiding foreigners.

Under the Alien Employment Act, the following occupations are closed to foreigners and is reserved for Thai nationals only:

• Labor work except labor work in fishing boats under the next category below.
• Agriculture, animal husbandry, forestry or fishery, except work requiring specialized knowledge, farm supervision, or labor work in fishing boats, particularly marine fishery.
• Bricklaying, carpentry, or other construction work.
• Wood carving.
• Driving motor vehicles or vehicles which do not use machinery or mechanical devices, except piloting international aircraft.
• Front shop sale.
• Auction sale work.
• Supervising, auditing, or giving service in accountancy, except occasional internal auditing.
• Cutting or polishing precious or semi-precious stones.
• Haircutting, hairdressing, or beautification.
• Cloth weaving by hand.
• Mat weaving or making utensils from reed, rattan, jute, hay, or bamboo.
• Making rice paper by hand.
• Lacquer work.
• Making Thai musical instruments.
• Niello work.
• Goldsmith, silversmith, or gold-and-copper alloy smith work.
• Stone work.
• Making Thai dolls.
• Making mattresses or quilts.
• Making alms bowls.
• Making silk products by hand.
• Making Buddha images.
• Knife making.
• Making paper or cloth umbrellas.
• Making shoes.
• Making hats.
• Brokerage or agency except in international trading.
• Professional civil engineering concerning design and calculation, systemization, analysis, planning, testing, construction supervision, or consulting services, excluding work

  requiring specialized techniques.

• Professional architectural work concerning design, drawing-making, cost estimation, or consulting services.
• Dressmaking.
• Pottery.
• Cigarette rolling by hand.
• Tour guiding or conducting.
• Hawking of goods.
• Thai typesetting by hand.
• Unwinding and twisting silk by hand.
• Clerical or secretarial work.
• Providing legal services or engaging in legal work (except arbitration work sand work relating to defense of cases at arbitration level, provided the law governing the dispute

  under consideration by the arbitrators is not Thai law)s

[MarkCyr]

Nice to see the BIB doing some essential work. Now that they've already solved the problem of taxi thugs, jet ski scams, and random violence in Phuket....Oh, wait a sec...

I guess it's time to go on a tea-money drive ahead of Songkran.

[steelepulse]

So any reports on activity at the pier yesterday? Did all the boats gather the requisite Thai "underwater guides"?

[stevenl]

So any reports on activity at the pier yesterday? Did all the boats gather the requisite Thai "underwater guides"?

Nothing special at all.

Well, today was a typical day, with nearly all companies having foreigners receiving their guests at the pier, complete with clipboards etc. Therefor all acting illegal.

[Somtamnication]

So any reports on activity at the pier yesterday? Did all the boats gather the requisite Thai "underwater guides"?

Nothing special at all.

Well, today was a typical day, with nearly all companies having foreigners receiving their guests at the pier, complete with clipboards etc. Therefor all acting illegal.

God I love this place!

[Dogmatix]

The first work permit they are going to check is that of the British diving instructor who irresponsibly took an 62 year old Chinese tourist with no prior diving experience and left him to die alone on the sea bed.

The rigid nature of Thai law means that foreign workers are only permitted to work at the companies and addresses that are recorded in their work permits. Obviously that can't include 'the beach' or 'the ocean' because it is not property owned or leased by the employer. Therefore diving instructors can only teach diving in their registered offices. If the employer has a swimming pool at the registered business address, they can teach there. Otherwise they are theoretically limited to teaching only theory and the practical side must be taught by Thai instructors, if there are any, since they have no restrictions on the locations they can work.

If the law is properly enforced as above and Thai instructors are the only ones allowed to take the customers on dives, I can imagine there will be a sharp increase in the number of tourists dying in diving accidents. No doubt the tourists will be blamed for their own deaths and the lack of proper qualifications of the Thai instructors will be overlooked.

[stevenl]

The first work permit they are going to check is that of the British diving instructor who irresponsibly took an 62 year old Chinese tourist with no prior diving experience and left him to die alone on the sea bed.

The rigid nature of Thai law means that foreign workers are only permitted to work at the companies and addresses that are recorded in their work permits. Obviously that can't include 'the beach' or 'the ocean' because it is not property owned or leased by the employer. Therefore diving instructors can only teach diving in their registered offices. If the employer has a swimming pool at the registered business address, they can teach there. Otherwise they are theoretically limited to teaching only theory and the practical side must be taught by Thai instructors, if there are any, since they have no restrictions on the locations they can work.

If the law is properly enforced as above and Thai instructors are the only ones allowed to take the customers on dives, I can imagine there will be a sharp increase in the number of tourists dying in diving accidents. No doubt the tourists will be blamed for their own deaths and the lack of proper qualifications of the Thai instructors will be overlooked.

Incorrect interpretation of the law. Even working out of province is allowed for a limited time period.

Nice find BTW, this thread is already 2 years old.

Edited February 19, 2016 by stevenl

[Gutenberg]

Now they have given an advance warning, i wonder if many people will be calling in sick tomorrow? haha

As always. It is a heads up for the foreigners so that in the end, they can say, oh, all ok, nobody works illegal.

[NamKangMan]

Now they have given an advance warning, i wonder if many people will be calling in sick tomorrow? haha

As always. It is a heads up for the foreigners so that in the end, they can say, oh, all ok, nobody works illegal.

This also allows the "tea money" to continue to flow in, so, it's in their financial interest to give them "a heads up."