Filing US Back Taxes from Thailand

[RichardLee]

I need to know if anyone has any experience with this. I've lived in Thailand some 30-odd years and in all that time have never filed a US tax return as required of us citizens. Note that I am not -- repeat, NOT -- a tax dodger. I've never owed a penny. But the forms for filing from abroad have always been so complicated, I just always blew it off. Never had any problems because of it it -- I visit the US about twice a year, and US Immigration has never flagged me; have renewed my passport regularly throgh the embassy here, and no one's said anything about it.

But now I'm in my 60s and thinking of returning to the US. It's been a good run in Thailand, but it's changed a lot from the "good old days." However, I'm worried that my neglecting to file a return all these years, especially now with this new Fatca law I keep hearing about, could come back to bite me. Again, I don't owe any money and never have, as my income has always been much below the minimum necessary to pay US taxes from abroad.

I have heard of people in a similar situation to mine filing their back taxes, but I don't know how to go about that. Are there accountants here in Bangkok who could help with that? I have all my old Thai tax returns to show.

Thanks in advance for any information you can give in in this regard.

[GinBoy2]

Dude, you do realize this aint good? Regardlessof income or residence we're required by law to file an annual tax return. The biggest problem I 'think' you will encounter are the fines & penalties associated with failure to file, for that reason alone I would contact a tax attorney (NOT a CPA, an Attorney) to figure out were you stand legally

[johnbits]

I have a good tax attorney in the USA, he could help you. At one time he worked for the IRS. He has reasonable rates, and if your income is low then you shouldn't have a big problem.

You could PM me if you want his name and number.

But if your income is low why retire to the USA? That part doesn't make much sense.

[Langsuan Man]

If you have been here "30 odd years" then how much credit do you have for social security ? Not much is my guess. And what are you going to live on when you return to the USA ?

I personally think taxes are the least of your problems at this point, unless you have a large inheritance waiting for you in the US, you might want to concentrate on how your are going to live

We like to refer to it as land of the free, unfortunately life is not free

[arjunadawn]

Depends: there is a minimum amount of earned income for which you must file; perhaps, lets say, $3,000/year. If you had not earned that you are ok not to file-period. IRS has triggers such as employer 1099 filings, W2, etc.

If you earned up to roughly $85,000/year but remained abroad for at least 330 days, you don't have to pay taxes on the first 85k, but you must file, and you must do social security withholding. so, no income, no worry.

While IRS does have access to VISA MC to determine spending patterns, if there is no audit or trigger, whats to worry?

I ran amiss in a similar way and am still wrapping it all up for un-filed years. However, I did not do the withholding for self employ. You indicate that is not your issue, great. for you, its no income no file? No problem

US Thailand also have arrangements covered on the Treaty of Amity, or such. This and related govern such things as residence litmus tests, reciprocity for earners in relative countries, and access to social security reciprocally. You seem to be worried about this enough NOW that suggests there is more going on.

[Misty]

Definitely would suggest getting this cleared up. Perhaps the person johnbits mentions can help. Or suggest you start with the American Citizens Services section at the US embassy here in Bangkok, I hear they keep a list of US tax advisors based in Bangkok. Maybe one could assist, or recommend an appropriate lawyer.

One thing, you state:

"Again, I don't owe any money and never have, as my income has always been much below the minimum necessary to pay US taxes from abroad."

It sounds like you may mean that your income has always been below the "Foreign Earned Income Exclusion" which for 2013 was $97,600. Unfortunately, I hear qualifying for FEIE isn't automatic - you only get to use this exclusion if you file and select it. If you get audited for not filing, use of FEIE may be disallowed in calculating the final tax. So it would make sense for you to take action rather than wait for an audit - otherwise, you may end up owing tax, interest, penalties that you otherwise may not have.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Misty

[pomchop]

Dude, you do realize this aint good? Regardless of income or residence we're required by law to file an annual tax return. The biggest problem I 'think' you will encounter are the fines & penalties associated with failure to file, for that reason alone I would contact a tax attorney (NOT a CPA, an Attorney) to figure out were you stand legally

Wrong. You are not required to file a tax return under several different scenarios especially if very low income.

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Do-You-Need-to-File-a-Federal-Income-Tax-Return%3F-

[RichardLee]

Thank you for all your advice. I would rather not go into my arrangements once I return to the US, and that may not be for a couple more years anyway. Suffice it to say I do want to get this cleared up. I've known other people who did get it cleared up but have lost track of them. It seems to be a case of you going to them is a lot better than them noticing you first. At least two people I knew did not even have to pay a fine once they contacted the IRS on their own after returning to the US.

Yes, johnbits, I will send you a PM. I will also try American services at the embassy.

[JDGRUEN]

OP - you may not be aware of it but there are numerous firms in the U.S. that for a couple thousand dollars will take care of the whole thing. These firms specialize in cases of non filers, or non payers or both. If you can show for the last ten years what your earnings have been with some minimum documentation - the filing for the last 7 to 10 years will go just fine. You will likely pay some kind of penalty - but it can be negotiated down to 10 cents on the dollar is many cases. The IRS regs say that there is NO STATUTE of LIMITATIONS for not filing -- but there is I KNOW IT FOR a FIRST HAND FACT... Anything past 10 years old is likely to be ignored --- no forms even to be filed. I know some will scoff at my statement - but if you have never been through it - you just do not know what you are talking about. These firms advertise constantly in the U.S. on radio, TV and billboards. Usually it is a law firm. Try to find a company that is local to where you are going to live. I do not advise that you do this while overseas - get there - secure a company and get it done. Analyse your company -- look for references - there are some rip off outfits - but in turn there are some good ones. Just google in the town / city where you plan to live in the U.S. for Filing Back Taxes, etc. Don't listen to the doomsday sayers here on this thread. Also - DO NOT CONTACT THE IRS and try to do this yourself ... These firms know the laws - often used to work for the IRS as individuals --- if your try to represent yourself - the IRS will screw you royally.

[slapout]

The statue of limitations for not filing a income tax return is 3 years. Thus 27 odd of your 30 odd as mentioned are of no legal concern to you nor the IRS.

If no tax was/is owed for the 3 years prior to your return then you are home free so to speak.

This is my real life experience, doing excatly what the OP is proposing to do.

[slapout]

For the op and others who may not be aware ''The Taxpayer Advocant Service'' is avaliable at no cost to you to answer questions, give assistance and even go to bat for you, if you are in the right, against the IRS.

[wym]

I can tell you from direct experience you will have absolutely no problem with this, as long as

• don't actually owe any taxes, income for that period was always under the exempted limit
• you were a regular taxpayer in the past
• haven't been (suspected of being) involved in criminal activities

When the times comes just return to the states, and before you start earning any income, walk into your local taxpayer assistance center explain the situation, notify them of your new address - this is also required to update Social Security - and they will run a check in their computer system.

This will state that they don't have any problems on file.

When you start earning income, have all the deductions made, and be sure to file properly before the following April.

Bob's your uncle, you're back in civilization no worries.

[Scarpolo]

why not just go to a liquor store upon arrival, pull a loaded handgun, preferably one used in a killing spree, shoot into the air, and get drunk before the cops arrive.

the same treatment you wil receive from the arriving police officers is what you will get at the new Obaba IRS.

jeesus man, get a grip.

you dont file for 30 years, ok, putting your IP address on a TV forum, linked to Facebook has already exposed you,

anything further you want to have come out of the closet?

[wym]

This from someone believes in chemtrails.

I've just gone through all this after fifteen years of the same, immediately before I dropped off the radar I was paying 40-70K per year for the previous ten.

Had a bit of advice from an ex-IRS auditor, convinced me everything was OK bowled up to the IRS office as described above, no drama whatsoever.

Better to file of course but if you haven't been up to anything dodgy and don't actually owe any tax, likely to not get even fined at all.

[Scarpolo]

This from someone believes in chemtrails.

I've just gone through all this after fifteen years of the same, immediately before I dropped off the radar I was paying 40-70K per year for the previous ten.

Had a bit of advice from an ex-IRS auditor, convinced me everything was OK bowled up to the IRS office as described above, no drama whatsoever.

Better to file of course but if you haven't been up to anything dodgy and don't actually owe any tax, likely to not get even fined at all.

That is very bad advice,

and you are not aware of some of the tactics used recently on people here, especially if you put Tea Party on your voting card.

suggestion, you know a lot oabout Thailand,

dont give advice about the IRS,

they are not looking for compliments from the public anymore and will NOT treat the man fairly

and chemtrails are a fact, the us gov doesnt deny them anymore

[lomatopo]

If the forms have been too complicated for you, and you've blown them off, it's not clear to me how you know that you either did not have to file, or that you did not owe any taxes.

Based on what little detail you've provided it sounds like you've been earning money here in Thailand, which I think means that you must file a U.S. tax return, if only to claim the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion.

If you returned to the U.S. for a total of more than 35 days in any filing period then this exclusion is not allowed, there is mention in the OP of two returns to the U.S. each year.

I'd start accumulating as many records, compiled by year, as you are able, and document your travel back to the U.S.

Have you been filing FinCEN/FBar for the past few years, assuming you have a bank account here in Thailand which had a balance of over 10,000 USD?

It sounds as though there is some upcoming event hastening the OP's return to the U.S. in the next few years, obviously it is best to get this issue resolved well ahead of that event/return.

Filing for an extension ASAP, given how close April 15 is, may be advisable?

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/acs_taxes.html

http://photos.state.gov/libraries/thailand/231771/acs/tax_consultants.pdf

[wym]

That is very bad advice,

and you are not aware of some of the tactics used recently on people here, especially if you put Tea Party on your voting card.

suggestion, you know a lot oabout Thailand,

dont give advice about the IRS,

they are not looking for compliments from the public anymore and will NOT treat the man fairly

and chemtrails are a fact, the us gov doesnt deny them anymore

I've just gone through all this in the last six months, and experienced first-hand exactly what I posted, and stand by my advice.

I don't think either the OP or myself have had any voting card for decades and certainly don't care about tea parties other than those hosted by my little girl with her dolls and stuffed animals.

And feel free to post links to government "admissions" about chemtrails and scientific reports on their efficacy in modifying the weather or whatever - no interest in conspiracy websites please, credible sources only.

[RichardLee]

Thank you again for all the suggestions (although I'm a bit wary about the liquor-store stickup scenario). Blowing off filing US taxes from over here may be much more common than many people realize. I have known quite a few American expats who have done the same thing. Never heard of a single person getting popped for it. What I've not known are many people who decided to go ahead and backfile. Just the two I mentioned, and they're back in the US and out of touch now. (And I'm pretty sure not in prison due to the tax thing.)

Again, while I know it's easy to claim anything on an anonymous Internet board, I want to emphasize that had I filed all these years, I would never have owed anything; I was always a conscientious filer as a lad back in the US; and I'm not nor was I ever engaged in criminal activity. Just a lazy duffer who is now having second thoughts about my tax-filng situation.

I think if you just stopped filing like I did, the IRS would probably figure you died. The problem might be when you suddenly start filing again from inside the US. But I knew someone who did just that. He stopped filing a form while in Thailand, then returned to the US to study for a master's degree. Was there for a couple of years, then returned to Thailand. He did earn money part-time working as a student, so filed that while back home. But no one from the IRS ever contacted him to ask about the intervening years. He's still here now too and has not filed again since coming back here. Still has ties to the US, family and such, so he would have heard if the IRS was looking for him.

I'm not using the above example to promote or excuse not filing. It's just an example that this may be more common than many think.

[RichardLee]

I don't think either the OP or myself have had any voting card for decades and certainly don't care about tea parties other than those hosted by my little girl with her dolls and stuffed animals.

Just saw this. Actually, I do vote in the US. And as per the new voting rules, I register back in my home county every year now. (Not a Tea Party member though.)

I vote. I visit the US a couple times or so a year. I renew my passport regularly at the embassy in Bangkok. I don't do anything to hide.

Edited April 4, 2014 by RichardLee

[wym]

Compensation/promotions for the auditors/collections people (revenue officers) are based on numbers just like salespeople working on commission.

They generally don't bother going after A peanuts B people that are ignorant/lazy without bad intent.

Obviously there are random exceptions, but in this kind of scenario, come clean without hiring any professionals and you're very likely to get off 100% scott free.

And of course from then on should make sure to file every year, with software these days really not that hard.

[lomatopo]

I don't think either the OP or myself have had any voting card for decades and certainly don't care about tea parties other than those hosted by my little girl with her dolls and stuffed animals.

Just saw this. Actually, I do vote in the US. And as per the new voting rules, I register back in my home county every year now. (Not a Tea Party member though.)

I vote. I visit the US a couple times or so a year. I renew my passport regularly at the embassy in Bangkok. I don't do anything to hide.

This opens up another potential set of issues re: state tax filing. States can be much more demanding/unforgiving than the IRS. (I'm assuming your address of record in the U.S. does not have any city taxes.)

Additionally, some states use voter registration records for jury duty pools, missing a jury duty summons can result in legal complications.

They generally don't bother going after A peanuts B people that are ignorant/lazy without bad intent.

While this may be accurate - I have no way of knowing - but if the OP is facing a significant event in the future, which may be prompting his return to the U.S., and if this future event encompasses income/estate issues, then past lack of filing might incur additional scrutiny resulting in a potentially bigger tax bite?

Edited April 4, 2014 by lomatopo

[Scarpolo]

That is very bad advice,

and you are not aware of some of the tactics used recently on people here, especially if you put Tea Party on your voting card.

suggestion, you know a lot oabout Thailand,

dont give advice about the IRS,

they are not looking for compliments from the public anymore and will NOT treat the man fairly

and chemtrails are a fact, the us gov doesnt deny them anymore

I've just gone through all this in the last six months, and experienced first-hand exactly what I posted, and stand by my advice.

I don't think either the OP or myself have had any voting card for decades and certainly don't care about tea parties other than those hosted by my little girl with her dolls and stuffed animals.

And feel free to post links to government "admissions" about chemtrails and scientific reports on their efficacy in modifying the weather or whatever - no interest in conspiracy websites please, credible sources only.

it would be off topic to post them here, but google William Cohen, defense secretary testimony to congress on "weather weapons"

[thailiketoo]

I don't think either the OP or myself have had any voting card for decades and certainly don't care about tea parties other than those hosted by my little girl with her dolls and stuffed animals.

Just saw this. Actually, I do vote in the US. And as per the new voting rules, I register back in my home county every year now. (Not a Tea Party member though.)

I vote. I visit the US a couple times or so a year. I renew my passport regularly at the embassy in Bangkok. I don't do anything to hide.

This opens up another potential set of issues re: state tax filing. States can be much more demanding/unforgiving than the IRS. (I'm assuming your address of record in the U.S. does not have any city taxes.)

Additionally, some states use voter registration records for jury duty pools, missing a jury duty summons can result in legal complications.

They generally don't bother going after A peanuts B people that are ignorant/lazy without bad intent.

While this may be accurate - I have no way of knowing - but if the OP is facing a significant event in the future, which may be prompting his return to the U.S., and if this future event encompasses income/estate issues, then past lack of filing might incur additional scrutiny resulting in a potentially bigger tax bite?

You wrote, "This opens up another potential set of issues re: state tax filing. States can be much more demanding/unforgiving than the IRS. (I'm assuming your address of record in the U.S. does not have any city taxes."

Why not just change your home address to Thailand on your passport?

[Scarpolo]

Thank you again for all the suggestions (although I'm a bit wary about the liquor-store stickup scenario). Blowing off filing US taxes from over here may be much more common than many people realize. I have known quite a few American expats who have done the same thing. Never heard of a single person getting popped for it. What I've not known are many people who decided to go ahead and backfile. Just the two I mentioned, and they're back in the US and out of touch now. (And I'm pretty sure not in prison due to the tax thing.)

Again, while I know it's easy to claim anything on an anonymous Internet board, I want to emphasize that had I filed all these years, I would never have owed anything; I was always a conscientious filer as a lad back in the US; and I'm not nor was I ever engaged in criminal activity. Just a lazy duffer who is now having second thoughts about my tax-filng situation.

I think if you just stopped filing like I did, the IRS would probably figure you died. The problem might be when you suddenly start filing again from inside the US. But I knew someone who did just that. He stopped filing a form while in Thailand, then returned to the US to study for a master's degree. Was there for a couple of years, then returned to Thailand. He did earn money part-time working as a student, so filed that while back home. But no one from the IRS ever contacted him to ask about the intervening years. He's still here now too and has not filed again since coming back here. Still has ties to the US, family and such, so he would have heard if the IRS was looking for him.

I'm not using the above example to promote or excuse not filing. It's just an example that this may be more common than many think.

OP,

your story reminds me of the group of men in Bangkok,

who were sold a 500 pound bomb from WWII,

and decided to cut it down

with a blow torch

Now, imagine for moment,

your entire life savings,

spent on lawyers,

and psychotropic drugs,

because you turned yourself in,

after 30 years.

they know you didn't die,

so, stay alive

and out of their in box

AND far away from any Thai with a blow torch.

You will blow yourself up big time if you owed money.

You realize that IRS only has the power to audit, one year at a time, right?

and, if you are not being scheduled for an audit, why on earth would you request one, and admit you scofflawed for 30 years?

that is beyind asinine,

and anyone giving you advice to contrary?

worse than asinine as they do not know all your circumstances, and YOU NEVER speak to them directly, NEVER

Edited April 4, 2014 by Scarpolo

[wym]

They generally don't bother going after A peanuts B people that are ignorant/lazy without bad intent.

While this may be accurate - I have no way of knowing - but if the OP is facing a significant event in the future, which may be prompting his return to the U.S., and if this future event encompasses income/estate issues, then past lack of filing might incur additional scrutiny resulting in a potentially bigger tax bite?

Yes if you anticipate being a "big fish" upon return, better to start getting legit in advance. But otherwise I'd say just start the process there in person.

Why not just change your home address to Thailand on your passport?

State taxes are based on where you're actually living or working, not on any forms much less passport??

Although owning property or a business could be a factor for some states, how much time spent on "visits" home.

In my case none, and no more than a month or two in any year, so pretty straightforward.

[wym]

it would be off topic to post them here, but google William Cohen, defense secretary testimony to congress on "weather weapons"

Never stopped anyone before.

First five pages of results nothing but wacko conspiracy sites and blogs and forums, mostly re-re-re-posts, nothing the least bit credible and mostly on the HAARP BS not chemtrails.

Not saying we haven't tried, CIA did tons of mind-control and PSI research, including mega-dosing unsuspecting straight citizens on LSD without their consent.

Doesn't mean anything significant came of it.

Edited April 4, 2014 by wym

[willyumiii]

The statue of limitations for not filing a income tax return is 3 years. Thus 27 odd of your 30 odd as mentioned are of no legal concern to you nor the IRS.

If no tax was/is owed for the 3 years prior to your return then you are home free so to speak.

This is my real life experience, doing excatly what the OP is proposing to do.

Very interesting..

Please clarify this.

Imagine the following scenario is true...

The last year I had any taxable income was 2011 .

The amount owed is/was not much.

I failed to file my taxes for the year 2011.

I moved to Thailand in Jan of 2012 and have had no taxable income since coming here.

Are you saying that this statue of limitations means I am no longer required to file or pay taxes for 2010 after the end of 2014??

It sounds too good to be true!

Thanks in advance!

Edited April 4, 2014 by willyumiii

[Scarpolo]

The statue of limitations for not filing a income tax return is 3 years. Thus 27 odd of your 30 odd as mentioned are of no legal concern to you nor the IRS.

If no tax was/is owed for the 3 years prior to your return then you are home free so to speak.

This is my real life experience, doing excatly what the OP is proposing to do.

Very interesting..

Please clarify this.

Imagine the following scenario is true...

The last year I had any taxable income was 2011 .

The amount owed is/was not much.

I failed to file my taxes for the year 2011.

I moved to Thailand in Jan of 2012 and have had no taxable income since coming here.

Are you saying that this statue of limitations means I am no longer required to file or pay taxes for 2010 after the end of 2014??

It sounds too good to be true!

Thanks in advance!

there is no statute of limitation when fraud is alleged.

taking tax advice on these threads is akin to relationship advice,

no one will hoestly not tell you they will not screw your g/f if given the chance either

there are guys here trying to hump their neighbors wives, and by throwing them 500 baht, they justify it,

and you take tax advice from them?

Edited April 4, 2014 by Scarpolo

[chuckd]

Mr. Lee:

Let me suggest you forget this valuable information being provided by some of the barracks lawyers on this forum and get on the internet and check some things out.

Here are a couple of sites you might find interesting:

https://www.1040.com/federal-taxes/filing-basics/who-must-file/

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Do-I-have-to-File-a-Tax-Return%3F

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you earned more than the minimum amount required for filing a return, you may be eligible for the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. It is explained here:

http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This site generally answers most of your questions concerning the act of filing.

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc153.html

I suggest you read these sites and satisy yourself as to your particular situation. None of us know.

[Langsuan Man]

The statue of limitations for not filing a income tax return is 3 years. Thus 27 odd of your 30 odd as mentioned are of no legal concern to you nor the IRS.

If no tax was/is owed for the 3 years prior to your return then you are home free so to speak.

This is my real life experience, doing excatly what the OP is proposing to do.

Very interesting..

Please clarify this.

Imagine the following scenario is true...

The last year I had any taxable income was 2011 .

The amount owed is/was not much.

I failed to file my taxes for the year 2011.

I moved to Thailand in Jan of 2012 and have had no taxable income since coming here.

Are you saying that this statue of limitations means I am no longer required to file or pay taxes for 2010 after the end of 2014??

It sounds too good to be true!

Thanks in advance!

You might want to review this article on Statute of Limitations for clarification:

http://taxes.about.com/od/backtaxes/qt/statute_limits.htm