Why do Isaan people speak Laotian?

[KawDang]

I had a Thai colleague tell me yesterday it's because there are many Laotians who fled the Communist Chinese south into northeast Thailand.

I assumed it was much older than that.

But I'd rather hear it from the forum than from Google.

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[Surin13]

In Isaan there are about 10 (or maybe more) different languages spoken besides Thai, depending on the area of Isaan.

The majority speak a dialect of the Lao language, which isn't the same as Lao and is normally referred to as Isaan or Lao Isaan language. But in the south of Isaan around Buriram, Surin, and Sisaket they speak Northern Khmer, which is a dialect of Khmer, these are the 2 main languages spoken in Isaan.

As to why some Isaan people speak this dialect of the Lao language, have a look at a map its not hard to work out

These people are generally off Lao origin which dates back in Isaan to around the at least the 13th Century, if not longer.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Surin13

[aussiesteve63]

If you get a chance go visit the museum in Vientiane there's a map which shows a large chunk of issan belonged to Laos a long time ago

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[KawDang]

Thanks for enlightening me

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[AloisAmrein]

Large parts of Isaan belonged to Laotian kingdoms a long time, the actual border between Thailand and Laos has been drawn after WW2, after the French had been trown out of Indochina. During WW2 Thailand cooperated with Japan (and declared war to the British and the USA) and occupied parts of modern Laos and Cambodia. After the war Thailand had to leave the occupied territories.

[Norlund]

Does this answer the question?

http://aircommandoman.tripod.com/id47.html

[Norlund]

Large parts of Isaan belonged to Laotian kingdoms a long time, the actual border between Thailand and Laos has been drawn after WW2, after the French had been trown out of Indochina. During WW2 Thailand cooperated with Japan (and declared war to the British and the USA) and occupied parts of modern Laos and Cambodia. After the war Thailand had to leave the occupied territories.

The Thai ambassador in Washington, Seni Pramoj and Pridi Panomyoung, the senior statesman refused to deliver the declaration of war to the United States government. So technically Thailand wasn't at war with USA.

[katana]

There's a bit on Isan dialect here:

http://siamsmile.webs.com/isaan/isaan.html

[shadmo63]

A more appropriate question is - why do Isaan people speak Thai? Because it has been forced upon them since Thai-ifiction began under Phibun in the late 1940s. This has largely been achieved by compulsory education in Thai language and culture and history in the school system. Maybe it was inevitable as I don't think they have any writing of Lao in Isaan.

Maybe some old hands would know more about this than me but I reckon 30 years ago Isaan people were looked down upon terribly by the average Bangkokian, and Isaan people had no pride in being from Isaan. Today that seems to have changed and they have a bit more pride in their own culture. Mor lam, Isaan comedy and khao niaw seem to be a bit more celebrated now, IMO.

[mike2011]

The link is informative but for the early period a little bit too imaginative. If we look at the extension of Khmer temples in Isaan all the way to Vientiane and understand that these temples marked administrative centers, it is clear that this was a core part of the Khmer Empire. Many authors project today's boundaries back. I also dont think that those Khmer people simply disappeared. They most likely merged with the new arrivals as had done the Mon who were all over the place before the Khmers.

In other words, the population is not necessarily identical with the rulers. Same was the case in Europe at the time. With the decline of the Khmer as a state power their language was superseded by that of the new strong men. Be it the Lao dominated kingdoms or the Siamese dominated kingdoms. Add to that migrations and we come to our times.

The assertion that the Khmers of Surin are Laos under Khmer influence or that they were Thai under Khmer influence will call for laughs over there.

For someone with a bit of time: Check the old part of the BKK National Museum which is from the 1930s (?) and the language there. Later compare it with that in the Phimai and Surin museums. BKK will tell you a lot about Thailand, and the other two about the people in the area.

[cnx355]

It show that your Thai friend , as many other Thai, do not know the historical facts about his country.

Not his fault really as they do not teach those fact at school.

And talking about Laos, the Emerald Budha in Bangkok was in Vientiane before. The empty space is still there to see. It was a war prize.

Edited April 6, 2014 by cnx355

[BritManToo]

A lot of farming communities in Central Thailand also appear to speak a variation of Lao.

Same in Northern Thailand.

I believe many stratified societies have (or had) the different levels speaking different languages.

(Used to be the same in France, England and Italy, Italy didn't have a cohesive language until after WW2)

Edited April 6, 2014 by BritManToo

[sirchai]

If you get a chance go visit the museum in Vientiane there's a map which shows a large chunk of issan belonged to Laos a long time ago

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This is certainly not true. Siam was much bigger and parts of Cambodia, Laos and Malaysia were Thailand, or Siam.

[Issangeorge]

In my area of Isaan, my village speaks Lao Thai, but two kilometres down the road the village speaks Pheu Thai, in other parts of Isaan they speak a form of Khmer, and my wife tells me in parts of Korat they speak another dialect.

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[shadmo63]

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If you get a chance go visit the museum in Vientiane there's a map which shows a large chunk of issan belonged to Laos a long time ago


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"This is certainly not true. Siam was much bigger and parts of Cambodia, Laos and Malaysia were Thailand, or Siam."

Sirchai you and your map are only correct for one point in time (some time during the 19th Century). Aussiesteve63 is correct.

I am no expert but the borders and powers of Ayutthaya, Lan Xang, Lanna, Vientiane, Angkhor, Siam and numerous other regional kingdoms have been moving back and forth and waxing and waning for a millenium and beyond. Power here. Alliance there. War here, war there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lan_Xang

Quite clearly almost the entirety of Isaan belonged to Lan Xang in the link to this map of SEA in 1400AD above

Do you know of the Mandala system of power and influence? Wikipedia - "Empires such as Bagan, Ayutthaya, Champa, Khmer, Srivijaya and Majapahit are known as "mandala" in this sense." Basically it means that close to the centre of power or capital of the kingdom there is strong influence and loyalty, but moving further away there is lesser and lesser influence and loyalty to the central power or King.

The modern borders we have were much more loosely defined or adhered to in times gone by. There were no surveyors or GPS systems back then.

[JoePai]

Does this answer the question?

http://aircommandoman.tripod.com/id47.html

I hope you did not Google that

[transam]

Bit like English, Welsh, Scots and Irish. I am English but don't know what the rest of the Union is talking about.................

[PattayaPhom]

Colonisation many moons ago but hey keep quite Thailand has never been colonised according to them

[tullynagardy]

A more appropriate question is - why do Isaan people speak Thai? Because it has been forced upon them since Thai-ifiction began under Phibun in the late 1940s. This has largely been achieved by compulsory education in Thai language and culture and history in the school system. Maybe it was inevitable as I don't think they have any writing of Lao in Isaan.

Always amazes me just how well the Issan people took this. Rather than revolt against this Thaification they instead have embraced it. Compare that to Ireland or Tibet for example.

For the younger generation (fluent in written and spoken Thai) it isnt as much of an issue, but for the older folks I do sense an identity crisis. My mrs mother, whilst able to understand Thai, feels very uncomfortable talking it, yet can`t write her mother tongue as it was banned.They are sort of stuck between 2 languages, they refuse to stop using Laos for day to day conversation, yet use Thai to write it despite it not really working and speak Thai in government business.

To answer the OP further, my wife (from Buriram in Southern Issan) has 2 close friends in the UK. One is from Pakse in Laos just over the border from Southern Issan, and one from Northern Issan not far from Udon. The difference between my wifes language and the girl from Udon far exceeds that from the girl from Laos, the Laos girl speaks virtually the same as her.

Borders by their very nature are artificial and this one is no different. The fact someone on the other side of it is easier to understand than someone within it is testament to this.

[MisterUbon]

If you get a chance go visit the museum in Vientiane there's a map which shows a large chunk of issan belonged to Laos a long time ago

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

This is certainly not true. Siam was much bigger and parts of Cambodia, Laos and Malaysia were Thailand, or Siam.

Sorry can't copy and paste .....

Edited May 3, 2014 by MisterUbon

[mike2011]

Perhaps a note on the laos speaking communities in central Thailand. Many of them originate from Bang Saen in today's Chiang Rai province. When that city was conquered and burned to the ground by the Thai army alongside with Vientiane (where the good Buddist from BKK used the temples as stables) and Champamsak (near Pakse), the Bang Saen population that survived was deported. Communities are found in Lampang (where they have their own specific temple and cultural center), Saraburi, Sakeo, also around BKK and I think Sri Satchanalai. This explains the existence of northern Laos speaking communities in central Thailand.

Nong Khai was, by the way, founded to supersede the destroyed Vientiane with the hope that the latter place would remain abandoned.

Those population maps from the 1970s in the mentioned above link owe more to Thai and US wishful thinking and the Indochina war than reality.

To understand the spread of dialects, ecology is important aside from political events like migrations. Following the demise of the Khmer central government's control in Isaan there were hardly, if any, roads left. Much like until recently in some areas of Laos the rivers provided transport during the rainy season. Otherwise the settlements were like island in a thick forest where little agriculture took place. Some of us were lucky enough to see the remaining forests of Northern Cambodia before they were cut down. These forests had overgrown formerly settled areas. In this perspective the Moon river provided a link to the Mekong and opening for settlers to move along it. Thus, the Buriram area was by the standards of the time rather close to Pakse but it was inaccessible to the Udon area. Look at the river network and you see where the old towns are and how people moved.

it also explains the refuges for populations of Mon, hill tribes, and other non-dominant groups. They could escape the military superior or more numerous groups that pushed them out of the more desirable locations.

The idea that these cultures will no disappear because everybody wants to be Thai and be modern is only partly convincing. On the contrary, new media might strengthen those supposedly marginal groups. In the case of the Khmer they profit from the proliferation of culture from Cambodia. In the case of Isaan it is more that the Laos majority (in Isaan) impact the less numerous and less wealthy population in Laos.

Smaller groups might profit from newly acquired compentence and the emergence of an educated elite. Once people grow a bit older, they might not think any longer that life is just hip hop.

I m often surprised how little Thai-speaking Thais know and their lack of interest. Often it turns out that Thais are in reality just displaying their acquired new identity and have been keeping to themselves a second and older one. I m not at all sure that Thais constituted a numerical majority in Thailand, it is more a dominance they represent. This is now under challenge from the northern and eastern language speakers.

[shadmo63]

Mike2011 said "I m often surprised how little Thai-speaking Thais know and their lack of interest. Often it turns out that Thais are in reality just displaying their acquired new identity and have been keeping to themselves a second and older one. I m not at all sure that Thais constituted a numerical majority in Thailand, it is more a dominance they represent. This is now under challenge from the northern and eastern language speakers."

Of course Thai Politics is a very complex issue with a multitude of variables but would you then conclude that the biggest factor in the Political divide is more geographical and cultural - central/southern Thai v the rest - than the rural v urban or middle/ upper v lower or monarchy v republic or liberal v conservative or army v police or vested red interest v vested yellow interest or privy council this v privy council that? So many players. I suppose we will only know when the current status quo is destroyed. I think it's going to be very messy. There are just too many divisions. Even the red v yellow vitriol on TV amazes me.

[slipperylobster]

Same reason lots of folks speak english in Canada. My gal speaks fluent Loatian but lives in Udon. Borders were not that clear in the past.

[slipperylobster]

am I wrong...Laos was a new country formed by the French in the mid twentieth century? Anyways, I sort of googled that. Probably was an extension of Isaan....thats why

[cgphuket]

FYI, the language of Laos is "Laos", I have only heard foreigners make up the word "Laotian". Also, some Isaan people speak a Khmer / Thai hybrid, depending on what country their part of Isaan borders.

[slipperylobster]

FYI, the language of Laos is "Laos", I have only heard foreigners make up the word "Laotian". Also, some Isaan people speak a Khmer / Thai hybrid, depending on what country their part of Isaan borders.

went ahead and looked it up for ya !

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Laotian

Laotian

1. The official language of Laos (closely related to Thai).

Translations

[slipperylobster]

haha....nobody speaks German in Germany either....because if we were speaking in German we would be speaking Deutsche.

you follow?

and the french would say Laotien and not Laotian...to even confuse us more !

Hey! some Laotiens even understand French like my grandparents from Quebec.

Damn genes are everywhere.

[MisterUbon]

Franco-Siamese War of 1893
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The Franco-Siamese War of 1893 was a conflict between France and the Kingdom of Siam. Fighting broke out in April 1893 and ended quickly after French naval forces blockaded Bangkok. The Siamese agreed to cede Laos to France, an act that led to the significant expansion of French Indochina.

European powers began travelling to Thailand in the 16th century. Despite European pressure, Thailand is the only Southeast Asian country never to have been colonised by a European power. The two main reasons for this is that Thailand had a long succession of very able rulers in the 1800s and that it was able to exploit the rivalry and tension between the French and the British. As a result, the country remained as a buffer state between parts of Southeast Asia that were colonised by the two European colonial powers. Despite this, Western influence led to many reforms in the 19th century and major concessions to British trading interests. This included the loss of the three predominantly ethnic Malay southern provinces, which later became Malaysia's three northern states. However, another ethnic Malay province named Pattani, now subdivided further into four smaller districts, has remained as Siamese territory to this day.

http://www.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/ayutthaya28.html

The Royal European Progress began in Italy on May 14, 1897 and, after meeting with the Italian King and His Holiness the Pope, King Chulalongkorn moved on to Switzerland, Austria and Hungary before catching up with his friend Tsar Nicholas II at the Peterhof. Throughout his journey, European Crowned Heads and Presidents of Republics welcomed the Siamese King royally, graciously and warmly. Sweden, Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Portugal were all captivated by the slightly built Siamese Monarch. The Prince of Wales officially welcomed King Chulalongkorn for his five week visit to Great Britain during which he toured extensively and called on Her Majesty Queen Victoria at her Isle of Wight residence (the elderly Queen was preparing for her Diamond Jubilee). Another call was to visit his son who was being educated at Harrow a noted English "public" school.
As it happened, such were the strains between Siam and the French Republic, France had not been included in the Royal itinerary. However, having heard of the magnificent receptions accorded to King Chulalongkorn by other European Heads of State, President Faure of France sent his presidential train to Brussels (where King Chulalongkorn had been visiting King Leopold II) to invite and embark the Siamese King.

The reception in France, on 11 September 1897, was magnificently regal and wherever he went King Chulalongkorn was cheered by the French people Versailles, the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre and, indeed, Longchamps horse races were all graced by visits from King Rama V. The ordinary people of France were heart-warmed by King Chulalongkorn (and by his gifts to the poor of Paris) but the Government of France never returned the Siamese territory it had taken. But, thanks to these eminently successful State Visits, France could not risk censure and the embarrassment of further bullying tactics. Siamese territorial losses were stemmed!
After visiting fourteen European countries and making many important connections, His Majesty King Chulalong korn, Rama V returned to Siam in the latter part of 1897. Success had been heaped upon success and, in a speech to his Nobles, Government and people, the Siamese King declared "I am determined to do everything in my power to make Siam a free and progressive country". And he did!

The French-Thai War (1940 - 1941) was fought between Thailand and Vichy France over certain areas of French Indochina that had once belonged to Thailand.

Negotiations with France shortly before World War II had shown that the French government was willing to make minor changes in the boundaries between Thailand and French Indochina. Following the Fall of France in 1940, Major-General Plaek Pibulsonggram (popularly known as "Phibun"), the Prime Minister of Thailand, decided that France's defeat gave the Thais an even better chance to regain the territories they had lost during King Chulalongkorn's reign.

The collapse of Metropolitan France obviously made the French hold on Indochina tenuous. The isolated colonial administration was cut off from outside help and outside supplies. After the Japanese invasion of French Indochina in September, 1940, the French were forced to allow the Japanese to set up military bases. This seemingly subservient behavior convinced the Phibun regime that Vichy France would not seriously resist a confrontation with Thailand.

After the war, in October 1946, western Cambodia and the two Lao enclaves were only returned to French sovereignty after the French provisional government threatened to veto Thailand's membership in the United Nations.

[shadmo63]

FYI, the language of Laos is "Laos", I have only heard foreigners make up the word "Laotian". Also, some Isaan people speak a Khmer / Thai hybrid, depending on what country their part of Isaan borders.

went ahead and looked it up for ya !

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Laotian

Laotian

• The official language of Laos (closely related to Thai).

Translations

My teacher ex wife would tell you she spoke "Lao".

[shadmo63]

Wow Lao bor?