TRT Targeted For Dissolution

[h90]

my wife basically never give any money for corruption, there were just a very few cases (like if really your future depends on it and there is no other way anymore). What I heared from her sister:TRT hand out a lot money in the south (not the last vote, the vote before) and they took it but vote different.

The strange point of view was: if someone offer me money, why not take it? But I vote who I want to vote.

I still think if I should consider this as unhonest instead of corrupt or just as street-wise?? I don't know.

So you agree that TRT paid people to vote them, right? (paying more means that someone paid).

Paying people to vote for you is in all countries illegal and more than a reason to disolve a party.

Of course they do, I've said that before. The point a lot of posters here don't want to see is, so do ALL the other parties, or at least in the areas of the North that my extended family lives, 3 provinces. They are all equally to blame for vote buying it's corruption on a vast scale in Thailand from the top down. Anyone living in Thailand for any length of time, Farang or Thai, has passed some cash to someone sometime for something that's the way it is, that's the way it has been and that's the way it will probably stay for some time to come.

A tad cynical to say everyone in Thailand has passed money at some time. According to my wife she has never paid corruption money for anyting ever, and I doubt she is the only one. She also says neither her nor her mother have ever taken money or handouts from anyone especially politicians after votes. Again I doubt they are the only family. I would not question corruption is widespread but to suggest absolutely everyone is involved is taking it a bit far.

[lukamar]

What I heared from her sister:TRT hand out a lot money in the south (not the last vote, the vote before) and they took it but vote different.

The strange point of view was: if someone offer me money, why not take it? But I vote who I want to vote.

The same is true in the North. All the parties do it.

This is what I've been saying. The grassroots people take the money and may as you state vote whatever way they want. It's like the payout is "expected" by them but rationalized as not being part of the problem. They just look at it differently and my family takes the money or handouts from the parties as well and surprisingly with the same rational, as yours, that if someone wants to give it to them something, why not take it. Until this grassroots attitude is changed the system will stay in existence, it will just go more underground and with a lot more secrecy in how and where handouts are made.

[ando]

There can sometimes be a fine line between tips, gratuities and bribes.

When I was getting the wifes visa organized we gave the head man at the local Amphur a bottle of Johny Walker black label to ensure all the paperwork was right. Not there was anything wrong with the paperwork, but the family assured me it would speed up the process.

Also, when we went to get the police check for her criminal history clearance, the interviewing officer who was of senior rank handed us a brown paper bag to put the paperwork and search fee in. The wife assured me she had no criminal history, so I just put the standard fee in the bag and handed it back to him.

Another time we were driving down the highway when we were waved down at a police road block.

My driver is a middle ranking Army career man and he leaves his cap on the dashboard even though he was on leave and in civvies. The police officer who was waving us over spotted the cap and the army base security sticker on the windscreen when we were nearly stopped. He snapped to attention, saluted us and waved us on immediately.

I dont agree with bribes or other corrupt practices. Even tipping goes against my grain as I believe in fair payment for a fair days work and did not grow up in USA where it is ingrained into the culture and wage structure of service industries. But when in a foreign country, I tend to just go with the flow of what is considered normal accepted practice in order to avoid any problems.

My point is that bribes and corrupt payments seem to be ingrained into Thai culture at almost every level and are generally accepted as normal practice by most Thais.

Even in western societies we see big companies and unions giving money to political parties. Obviously, they dont do it because they just like giving money away, they do it in the hope of gaining some financial advantage from the recipient. And sometimes the big companies give money equally to opposing political parties just to be seen to be fair and non-political. But of course, what the big company gives to a political party, they can take away if that parties thinking is not in line with some advantage to the company. The boundaries between corrupt practices and what is seen as normal practice can become a little blurred sometimes. Each country draws a line where "donations" become corrupt payments. However there is often some overlap in what accepted practice culturally among the general population and what is acceptable under the law of the country.

Edited June 13, 2006 by ando

[John K]

am not so sure I agree with that Penz ....

the low level folks may have had no real knowledge of what the bosses were doing ....

it takes a certain mind-set to look for the answers and make decisions and not just keep on truckin

If everyone gets burned from the top down, it will encourage self policing of the next group. That will in turn encourage responsible voting thus minimizing the need for similar future action.

Is it drastic, perhaps. Is it effective, absolutely.

[chownah]

As I see it, whoever gets burned will be those without the power and those who do the burning will be those who have the power and this has nothing to do with corruption....only with who has the power....nothing to do with democratic institutions.....only with who has the power. In Thailand power is achieved by engaging in corrupt practices. This happens everywhere from selling large corporations to getting a surveyor to change survey marker locations and associated paperwork. It extends from which neighborhood gets more of the irrigation water to who gets to buy government bonds with high rates of interest return. It extends from who gets to steal reinforcing steel from highway projects and sell it for their own gain to who gets to control parking rights on public streets. It is everywhere and it is the basis for power in Thailand. Any public figure that gets burned for corruption is seen by Thais as simply not having the power......the factor of corruption is assumed by Thais and is not considered as part of the dynamic....it is the power that is the dynamic and those who are successfully corrupt will hold the power.

Chownah

[chownah]

As I see it, whoever gets burned will be those without the power and those who do the burning will be those who have the power and this has nothing to do with corruption....only with who has the power....nothing to do with democratic institutions.....only with who has the power. In Thailand power is achieved by engaging in corrupt practices. This happens everywhere from selling large corporations to getting a surveyor to change survey marker locations and associated paperwork. It extends from which neighborhood gets more of the irrigation water to who gets to buy government bonds with high rates of interest return. It extends from who gets to steal reinforcing steel from highway projects and sell it for their own gain to who gets to control parking rights on public streets. It is everywhere and it is the basis for power in Thailand. Any public figure that gets burned for corruption is seen by Thais as simply not having the power......the factor of corruption is assumed by Thais and is not considered as part of the dynamic....it is the power that is the dynamic and those who are successfully corrupt will hold the power.

Chownah

Just to clarify where I'm coming from with the above: I do think it is good to work against corruption.....however.....if people think that getting rid of some politicians will make a major advance on this front then I think they are mistaken. I think if people think that by getting rid of some politicians that true democratic process will emerge, then I think they are mistaken. If people want to bypass democratic processes until corruption is ended, then I think that they are dreaming as I don't think that this will work....it will just put off development of democratic processes indefinitely. I don't have the solution except to keep up the pressure on corrupt officials but to simultaneously develop democratic instutions and systems. People will not take the vote seriously until thay see that the vote is actully what has the power. The actions now are tending to show people that their vote doesn't matter.....PAD wants to guide the gov't in a different direction than what the voters want. If gov't policy goes against the voters wishes then the voters will learn that the vote doesn't really matter....the vote doesn't have the power. When people think the vote doesn't have the power then why take it seriously?...why not sell the vote to the highest bidder? This entire TRT thing is probably the first time that it will be clear to voters whether the vote has power or not. If the TRT is ousted then the answer will be clearly that vote has no power and the development of democratic institutions in Thailand will be set back............in my opinion.

Chownah

[jdinasia]

Chownah ... if votes are subverted by vote buying and election rigging then votes have now value anyways ...

Democracy requires that JUSTICE be important

[John K]

As I see it, whoever gets burned will be those without the power and those who do the burning will be those who have the power and this has nothing to do with corruption....only with who has the power....nothing to do with democratic institutions.....only with who has the power. In Thailand power is achieved by engaging in corrupt practices. This happens everywhere from selling large corporations to getting a surveyor to change survey marker locations and associated paperwork. It extends from which neighborhood gets more of the irrigation water to who gets to buy government bonds with high rates of interest return. It extends from who gets to steal reinforcing steel from highway projects and sell it for their own gain to who gets to control parking rights on public streets. It is everywhere and it is the basis for power in Thailand. Any public figure that gets burned for corruption is seen by Thais as simply not having the power......the factor of corruption is assumed by Thais and is not considered as part of the dynamic....it is the power that is the dynamic and those who are successfully corrupt will hold the power.

Chownah

The people who should get burned are the people in elected TRT offices. When the new government is seated they will remove who they must from the appointed offices.

Think about it for a moment and you will understand how it works. If your job and source of income depended on someone else following the law, would you not do everything in your power to see they stay straight? Policing from the inside is easier than from the outside. All this does is give the added incentive. Think of this as anti cancer medication.

Corruption is like cancer. You can’t expect to go into surgery and have the surgeon remove some hoping the rest will go away on it’s own. You need to remove as much as you can without killing the host in the process. Simply there is no other answer. Even the best surgeon must remove some healthy tissue to remove the cancer, so yes some innocent will suffer.

[ando]

Indeed, I agree with you chownah.

Thais tend to worry less about who might hold the moral/ethical high ground than who holds the actual power. For it those who hold the power who have the ability to make a difference in their lives.

Edited June 13, 2006 by ando

[ColPyat]

This entire TRT thing is probably the first time that it will be clear to voters whether the vote has power or not. If the TRT is ousted then the answer will be clearly that vote has no power and the development of democratic institutions in Thailand will be set back............in my opinion.

Chownah

Very well summed up.

[h90]

What I heared from her sister:TRT hand out a lot money in the south (not the last vote, the vote before) and they took it but vote different.

The strange point of view was: if someone offer me money, why not take it? But I vote who I want to vote.

The same is true in the North. All the parties do it.

This is what I've been saying. The grassroots people take the money and may as you state vote whatever way they want. It's like the payout is "expected" by them but rationalized as not being part of the problem. They just look at it differently and my family takes the money or handouts from the parties as well and surprisingly with the same rational, as yours, that if someone wants to give it to them something, why not take it. Until this grassroots attitude is changed the system will stay in existence, it will just go more underground and with a lot more secrecy in how and where handouts are made.

I think that is more specific south that they take the money from TRT and vote for the Democrates (which at least in that place did not hand out any money).

I think (but might be wrong) in the north they are more "honest" in voting what they paid for (I think)

[chownah]

Chownah ... if votes are subverted by vote buying and election rigging then votes have now value anyways ...

Democracy requires that JUSTICE be important

I agree with what you're saying. Justice IS important. The vote is not regarded highly in Thailand at present as evidenced by people being swayed by infusions of cash at election time. Thai voters do not in general (in my opinion) feel that by voting they will be able to change the power structure in politics and that is why they are swayed by a flash of cash. Even though I abhor the corruption that is happening today in the gov't, I do not think that bringing down the TRT will send the message to Thai people that justice has been served because it is widely known by Thai people that the main actors in the opposition to the TRT are corrupt as well and equally so....to Thais it would be just one group of corrupt people who have gotten the upper hand over another group of corrupt people....it will not be seen as justice being done but as those who have the power having their way over those who have less power. I think if the TRT is dissolved the main thing that Thais will learn is that the vote does not have the power and politicians will learn that it is better to find some powerful person to ally with and use the vote as merely a test to be passed before you can be put onto the stage where, once you are there, it is only serving the interest of the powers that be that will allow you to stay on the stage. I think that Toxin is using this concept....he hopes that the vote in fact DOES have enough power to keep him on the stage and he no longer needs to accomodate the powers that were there when he entered. Even though what he has done with this power is distasteful I still think that he has in effect created a national referendum on power in the politics of Thailand....this referendum will to a great extent determine whether power will come from the voters or will it come from the corrupt members of the gov't apparatus past and present. In my view if the opposition (both political and social...which means inclucing PAD even though they are "not political") wins then the referendum will be settled and Thais will know that power comes from the corrupt.....on the other hand if the TRT wins then the voters will know a little bit more surely that indeed the vote does have some power.

So, where does justice come into this equation? I think that the more people learn that the vote does have power the more they will move toward a just system of gov't. To have a democracy you MUST have a majority of people who believe in democracy and that democracy will not only effectively run the country but also do it with justice. Once people do truly see that their votes really do count they will start to demand a more just allocation of wealth.......in my opinion.

Chownah

[John K]

This is actually a unique opportunity for Thailand to do a clean sweep. I know it looks good on paper, but I expect there to be some stubborn stains that may require a good stiff wire brush to remove.

[ilyushin]

This entire TRT thing is probably the first time that it will be clear to voters whether the vote has power or not. If the TRT is ousted then the answer will be clearly that vote has no power and the development of democratic institutions in Thailand will be set back............in my opinion.

Chownah

Very well summed up.

Plop, Plop, Fizz, Fizz? TrT

[jdinasia]

Chownah ... if votes are subverted by vote buying and election rigging then votes have now value anyways ...

Democracy requires that JUSTICE be important

I agree with what you're saying. Justice IS important. The vote is not regarded highly in Thailand at present as evidenced by people being swayed by infusions of cash at election time. Thai voters do not in general (in my opinion) feel that by voting they will be able to change the power structure in politics and that is why they are swayed by a flash of cash. Even though I abhor the corruption that is happening today in the gov't, I do not think that bringing down the TRT will send the message to Thai people that justice has been served because it is widely known by Thai people that the main actors in the opposition to the TRT are corrupt as well and equally so....to Thais it would be just one group of corrupt people who have gotten the upper hand over another group of corrupt people....it will not be seen as justice being done but as those who have the power having their way over those who have less power. I think if the TRT is dissolved the main thing that Thais will learn is that the vote does not have the power and politicians will learn that it is better to find some powerful person to ally with and use the vote as merely a test to be passed before you can be put onto the stage where, once you are there, it is only serving the interest of the powers that be that will allow you to stay on the stage. I think that Toxin is using this concept....he hopes that the vote in fact DOES have enough power to keep him on the stage and he no longer needs to accomodate the powers that were there when he entered. Even though what he has done with this power is distasteful I still think that he has in effect created a national referendum on power in the politics of Thailand....this referendum will to a great extent determine whether power will come from the voters or will it come from the corrupt members of the gov't apparatus past and present. In my view if the opposition (both political and social...which means inclucing PAD even though they are "not political") wins then the referendum will be settled and Thais will know that power comes from the corrupt.....on the other hand if the TRT wins then the voters will know a little bit more surely that indeed the vote does have some power.

So, where does justice come into this equation? I think that the more people learn that the vote does have power the more they will move toward a just system of gov't. To have a democracy you MUST have a majority of people who believe in democracy and that democracy will not only effectively run the country but also do it with justice. Once people do truly see that their votes really do count they will start to demand a more just allocation of wealth.......in my opinion.

Chownah

IMHO you are putting the horse behind the cart!

This is a first REAL chance to deal with financial power politics from the top in a meaningful way!

We are NOT just looking at vote buying ... we are looking at the deliberate demise of checks and balances ... of a deliberate silencing of a Free Press ... and at a deliberate subversion of Democracy through money <paying parties to run so that you can avoid the 20% rule>>

ALL political parties will learn from this as will all voters ... If you Buy, coerce, subvert your way into office .... you and your cronies are gone!

[Plus]

the answer will be clearly that vote has no power and the development of democratic institutions in Thailand will be set back

No, not at all, it will be just a lesson - votes do not have power over the laws and justice. That, btw, is what TRT is doing - confronting the law with number of votes - they insist that with 16 million votes they are above the law.

power will come from the voters or will it come from the corrupt members of the gov't apparatus past and present.

At the moment the courts are acting on clear orders from the King. Where do you see "corrupt members of the gov't apparatus"? Do you think they courts have been bought?

it is widely known by Thai people that the main actors in the opposition to the TRT are corrupt as well and equally so

No, it is not known at all. Abhisit's image is as clean as Chuan's. A month ago we had a long discussion about corruption under Democrats. Even the biggest scandals were peanuts comparing to what TRT steals on almost daily basis.

It is widely known that corruption achieved unprecedented levels under TRT government. Peasants in Isan might have been brainwashed otherwise, though.

the more people learn that the vote does have power the more they will move toward a just system of gov't.

There's another dimension to this - decenrtalisation, as prescribed by the Constitution. People are supposed to take active interest in managing their local affairs and communities. To support it 35% of government's budget is supposed to be allocated to local governing bodies. Local politics are supposed to be decided by communities, not pooyais, and not by Thaksin handouts during his county tours.

Decentralisation is the real power given to the people, and so far only Democrats make it their policy.

TRT subverted the process completely and replaced it with CEO governing system. TRT government sidelined NGOs and farmer groups it courted before 2000 elections, ignored community proposed bills, bribed community leaders, and, if nothing else worked, openly confronted the people. Thai-Malaysian pipeline, Pak Mol Dam, Ban Krut and that other power plant - just off the top of my head.

So far the votes had no real power whatsoever, not because PAD overturned Thaksin, but because votes were used like blank checks by TRT and votes had no influence on policies at all. 30 baht scheme and village fund were kept as dangling carrots, the rest was entirely to TRT's discretion.

[ColPyat]

At the moment the courts are acting on clear orders from the King. Where do you see "corrupt members of the gov't apparatus"? Do you think they courts have been bought?

That has happened not too rarely.

No, it is not known at all. Abhisit's image is as clean as Chuan's. A month ago we had a long discussion about corruption under Democrats. Even the biggest scandals were peanuts comparing to what TRT steals on almost daily basis.

Actually, that is what you state.

You failed though to understand the effects of illegal logging and other business with surrounding dictatorships, and the vast profits that were made there. Neither have you read or properly commented on the links i have provided that supported my view.

Thaksin has modernised corruption in Thailand, but that's about it.

Chuan, in order to be PM, had to go into coalitions with some more than corrupt parties. It made no difference him being clean, but relying on the same corrupt systhem that Thaksin grew up in.

In regards to upcountry - Chuan has done nothing whatsoever to allevate the problems of the rural poor.

And given Abhisit's complete lack of any policy or vision regarding the rural poor i fear that he won't be any different than Chuan in this regard.

If the Democrat party is not going to transform into a proper political party, then they are no alternative to TRT.

TRT only came into power because the Democrats have relied far too long on the inherent failings of the Thai social make up, and have failed to adress the dire needs of the rural poor. Thaksin is entirely their fault.

[Plus]

You failed though to understand the effects of illegal logging and other business with surrounding dictatorships, and the vast profits that were made there.

1) That had very little to do with Democrats per se, either first or second government - you are talked about 30-year old history stretching from Vietnam war, and Democrat arch enemy Chavalit as the political figure head

2) Illegal logging is a VERY small business comparing to how much TRT makes from stock exchange, for example

3) There was a list with estimates of all major scandals under Democrats - TRT made a lot more from the new airport parking lot or something.

Actually, that is what you state.

I don't think I know enough myself to state anything of the kind - I just relay what other, more reliable sources say. They have been mentioned numerous times - Anand Panyarachun, Jaruwan Maintaka, Pasuk/Baker, Bangkok Post, The Nation. Where did you get the idea that corruption is constant in Thailand? From Thedude?

"Thaksin modernised corruption" - that's a big admission already. How's this test - never in Thailand's history people took to the streets to explicitly protest against corruption. It doesn't really matter what the real numbers are - in people's eyes Thaksin is the most corrupt leader they had in their memory, and they are not putting up with him anymore.

[chownah]

At the moment the courts are acting on clear orders from the King. Where do you see "corrupt members of the gov't apparatus"? Do you think they courts have been bought?

That has happened not too rarely.

No, it is not known at all. Abhisit's image is as clean as Chuan's. A month ago we had a long discussion about corruption under Democrats. Even the biggest scandals were peanuts comparing to what TRT steals on almost daily basis.

Actually, that is what you state.

You failed though to understand the effects of illegal logging and other business with surrounding dictatorships, and the vast profits that were made there. Neither have you read or properly commented on the links i have provided that supported my view.

Thaksin has modernised corruption in Thailand, but that's about it.

Chuan, in order to be PM, had to go into coalitions with some more than corrupt parties. It made no difference him being clean, but relying on the same corrupt systhem that Thaksin grew up in.

In regards to upcountry - Chuan has done nothing whatsoever to allevate the problems of the rural poor.

And given Abhisit's complete lack of any policy or vision regarding the rural poor i fear that he won't be any different than Chuan in this regard.

If the Democrat party is not going to transform into a proper political party, then they are no alternative to TRT.

TRT only came into power because the Democrats have relied far too long on the inherent failings of the Thai social make up, and have failed to adress the dire needs of the rural poor. Thaksin is entirely their fault.

ColPyat,

You are right on the mark about Thaksin having only modernized corruption. A lot of the impetus behind this move to unseat him is do to the intense jealousy that others have for his abilities in this regard....and also that he has been so successful in shutting them out......and frankly many Thais feel that Thaksin is there man in power (they voted him in three times in a row even if the last time was annulled) and they are PROUD that THEIR man in power is so effective in wielding his power to enrich himself and to diminish the influence of his detractors. Many Thais LIKE the fact that he has made so much money for himself and it gives Thaksin a very big face because he is successful in the everyday business of gov't corruption.....and....he does this while simultaneously doing more for the rural poor than all of the other regimes in Thailands "democratic" history combined!!!!

I agree with your views on Abhisit and would like to add that many Thais (current TRT supporters to be more specific) see Abhisit as a very good possibility for a future PM but they say they want to see how he develops. They say they know that he is presently just a puppet who is controlled by the real powers in the party but that in the future if he develops his own power so that he can be independent that they would consider voting for him....but that this will take awhile (and I gather from what they say they mean a number of years).

Chownah

Edited June 13, 2006 by chownah

[ColPyat]

ColPyat,

You are right on the mark about ...

I agree with your views ...

Chownah

God!

That is a rare occasion indeed that i can be a member of a mutual agreement society here on this board.

And, yes, i have heard as well many TRT supporters say the same thing about Abhisit, that he one day could be a viable alternative, after having matured for a while. Even many Democrat supporters have said to me that they feel that Abhisit is still too young and inexperienced to be PM.

[John K]

I wonder if this thread should be merged with the Thaksin returns thread. Both are so similar in topic, posts and posters they are like (forgive the phrase) Siamese Twins.

[jdinasia]

Well it is almost Wed ..... the OAG? or someone is reviewing the case on Fri ....

we'll know more in a couple of days ...

[penzman]

ColPyat,

You are right on the mark about ...

I agree with your views ...

Chownah

God!

That is a rare occasion indeed that i can be a member of a mutual agreement society here on this board.

And, yes, i have heard as well many TRT supporters say the same thing about Abhisit, that he one day could be a viable alternative, after having matured for a while. Even many Democrat supporters have said to me that they feel that Abhisit is still too young and inexperienced to be PM.

How old is Abhisit, in his forties?

He's been interested and involved in politics way longer that most people in TRT who come from a business background.

I often think he is considered immature because of his boyish looks.

If most people are talking about political maturity, I guess the last year or so has made him much more experienced in their eyes. The man CAN talk without prepared speeches or notes. The way he grilled Suryia with the CTX scandal for over an hour was excellent work, leaving Suryia speechless with only that stupid smile of his on his face and replying with totally unrelated answers.

[Jai Dee]

Mr. Suranand will meet with TRT spokesperson to forge unity within party

Executive member of Thai Rak Thai party Suranand Vejjajiva (สุรนันทน์ เวชชาชีวะ) will chair a meeting with spokesperson and public relations unit of the party this evening.

He reveals that he would like to adjust the party’s movements so as to strengthen the relationship between the party’s members and forge stronger ties within the party.

He deems that some members have various perspectives; therefore he would like to see some form of reconciliation within.

However, he has affirmed that the meeting will not set the movements to intervene in the policy implementation of Election Commission (EC).

As for the Opposition’s criticism that the general election will not take place on Oct 15th, he said that the new poll date does not have the significance as the consolation of units wanting to see the transparency in the poll.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 14 June 2006

[Plus]

A lot of the impetus behind this move to unseat him is do to the intense jealousy that others have for his abilities in this regard

Have you been to PAD rallies? Have you seen these people yourself? You make it sound like they just wanted some of his money for themselves. Incindentally that is what Thaksin always thinks about his opponents - southern insurgents, PAD protesters, everyone. He can't comprehend that for some people, a lot of them, actually, money is not the answer to all problems, that people put their country, the King, justice, the laws, above monetary gains.

they are PROUD that THEIR man in power is so effective in wielding his power to enrich himself and to diminish the influence of his detractors.

That, sadly, might be true, but many Thais are also disgusted by this little pride in betting on winning team when the country's future is at stake. Again, Thaksin himself bets on these base instincts - greed and pride. Thailand is lucky that there are enough people to protest against it, and it looks like Thaksin is about to lose, and maybe big time.

[hammered]

ColPyat,

You are right on the mark about ...

I agree with your views ...

Chownah

God!

That is a rare occasion indeed that i can be a member of a mutual agreement society here on this board.

And, yes, i have heard as well many TRT supporters say the same thing about Abhisit, that he one day could be a viable alternative, after having matured for a while. Even many Democrat supporters have said to me that they feel that Abhisit is still too young and inexperienced to be PM.

How old is Abhisit, in his forties?

He's been interested and involved in politics way longer that most people in TRT who come from a business background.

I often think he is considered immature because of his boyish looks.

If most people are talking about political maturity, I guess the last year or so has made him much more experienced in their eyes. The man CAN talk without prepared speeches or notes. The way he grilled Suryia with the CTX scandal for over an hour was excellent work, leaving Suryia speechless with only that stupid smile of his on his face and replying with totally unrelated answers.

That Abhisit is not old/mature enough is a TRT talking point to try to play down Abhisit, and is quite successful because TRT control so many ways of disseminating information. Interestingly I was told this by someone inside TRT who actually rates Abhisit quite highly and believes his orration could have done a lot of damage over the ibnevitable Shin sale debates if the parliament hadnt been dissolved. The dissolution of parliamnet has severely limited Abhisits national public platform opportunities.

[chownah]

I think that the view that Abhisit needs to mature has to do not only with his physical age but also his political experience and his work history. I think he is seen as not having much of a practical background in leadership roles. I know that there is a biography of him somewhere here in a post....does anyone know where it is...it would be interesting to read.

Chownah

P.S. Plus, you often quote people without saying who...if you put that info in your post then it would be easier for us to go back and to read the post in full to be sure that you have presented it fairly.

Chownah

Edited June 14, 2006 by chownah

[tettyan]

Interestingly I was told this by someone inside TRT who actually rates Abhisit quite highly and believes his orration could have done a lot of damage over the ibnevitable Shin sale debates if the parliament hadnt been dissolved. The dissolution of parliamnet has severely limited Abhisits national public platform opportunities.

That doesn't suprise me. For most anyone I talk to, whether they are pro-Thaksin or against, they always rate the Democrats highly for being good orators. But unfortunately, many don't think quite as highly of the Democrats' policies or their ability to deliver. That's something they need to change. Given time, I'm hopeful that Abhisit and his team of young-bloods will change this, but I'm afraid it won't be soon enough for the next election.

In hindsight, it may have been better to have let finish Thaksin finish his term until 2009. By then, a sort of "Thaksin fatigue" may have set in and Abhisit would have had enough time to consolidate control over his party. Those who speak about Abhisit's lack of experience - he may not have as much experience as the "businessmen-politicians", but by the standards of his own party, he is quite inexperienced. The only prominent positions he had served before was party spokesman during the 1st Chuan government and PM's Office Minister (the same job his cousin, Suranand, currently holds, coincidentally) during the 2nd Chuan government. Neither of these are considered heavyweight posts.

As I alluded to above, the Dems as a party are known to respect seniority. Abhisit managed to bypass this because of the utter desperation of the party following the disastorous 2005 election. Thus, it will take time before the public to be convinced that Abhisit is his own man.

[jdinasia]

Tettytan

Your in hindsight comment is interesting ... but in the end utterly useless sadly. The situation was horrid for Democracy BEFORE Thaksin dissolved Parlaiment ... but in the end it is HUGELY important to remember that Thaksin himself dissolved Parlaiment to take the heat off him. It just blew up in his face when the opposition was smart enough to play within the rules and not play HIS game.

The Demos (and every party in the pre Thaksin era) major problem is not having a well developed platform that they can respond to quickly. This leaves them in the position to have to develop a concensus about how to deal with the issues that arise.

[John K]

How can this doomed party make new friends with their head honcho suing everyone who says something obvious and apparently truthful about him.