Health officials ask Suthep for reform in sector and an embrace

[citizen33]

These health officials would dearly love to see the destruction of public health care. Their vested interest is to have more for profit hospitals and to be able to go back to the days of health care openly for those who can pay.

or the Dems system (that PTP scrapped to go back to the old failed poorly funded 30 baht system) where poor paid nothing as opposed to 30 baht they now and previously had to pay, that was so poorly funded it caused the closure of many rural (that is poor people's) clinics.

The wealthy will always be able to get health care, so forget that as an argument - the argument is the poor and PTP does not have a good record of that! Thaksin's TRT was different of course, as they started the health scheme for the poor (poorly funded and managed though it was, it was still a step in the right direction) - Dems took that made it work for free by funding it properly - TRT then came in and went back to the poor system - not a good indictment.

Just about the only worthwhile thing the Dems did in office.

Oh dear, same old chestnuts trotted out yet again! There was no separate 'Dem' scheme and indeed the change made in 2006/7 was quite a minor one that left the original 30 baht project design pretty much intact. It as the post-coup government, with Mongkol na Songkla as Minister of Public Health, who got rid of the 30 baht co-payment. This was a largely sensible move as it cost about as much to collect the money as it yielded for the system. The real issue was the allocation of government monies to the NHSO and the amount then paid to the provider units per patient per year (the capitation payment), and under the last Democratic government that was held down. I'm afraid that what is now being discussed is the chipping away at universal coverage in Thailand.

This will be a tragedy because the universal coverage scheme has made a real difference. Almost all the research evidence indicates that that is so. Here for example is the ten year assessment report:

http://www.gurn.info/en/topics/health-politics-and-trade-unions/development-and-health-determinants/development-and-health-determinants/thailand2019s-universal-coverage-scheme-achievements-and-challenges

Starting with the World Bank consultants who told Thai policy makers in 2001 that UC was unaffordable in Thailand, there have been no shortage of right-wing critics happy to see the scheme fail, Those who oppose tax spending on public programmes have always had allies in the MoPH who look towards the private sector, and even some elements in PTP saw the prospect of profit there. It seems that Kuhn Suthep is right behind the critics. Any of the yellows here who think they have somehow been supporting a socially liberal, pro poor movement needs to keep an eye on how existing social programmes are going to be affected if the government of 'good people; is imposed on the Thai electorate.

[rebelplatoon]

The reason being that the 30B scheme is not working. Doctors sent patients diagnosed with cancer home with aspirin because the 30B is insufficient. This has been said a long time by hospitals and health workers. The government is, once again, not coming up with the money needed to finance this. In the end the poor people suffer. What many don't realize is that it originally was a 50B scheme, which the Democrats invented. This would be enough, together with the Government aid. But Toxin had to do "one better" again and made it 30B. Another vote buying attempt messing up budgets.

[Baerboxer]

" We can't allow this to go on any more. This is political psychology. If we allow this to continue, it will bring negative developments for the government," Paradorn said. "

In other words, it's working. This is pretty rich coming from Paradorn - Thaksin's longtime associate who just happens to be at the centre of the Tawil transfer case. It's pretty rich, because all Thaksin has engaged in - with all the family members and associates that have been given such visible portfolios - is " political psychology ". That is all that Thaksin and Pheu Thai have ever been engaged in. So I guess they know how to spot it. The only problem is - their narrative has failed. And they recognize that all these agencies greeting Suthep not only leave a favourable public impression - and frankly they do - they appear to be upbeat and cordial - but make Pheu Thai look really terrible, by comparison. One group of people are smiling. And another is not. Pheu Thai has failed with the optics. The optics of Suthep gatherings are juxtaposed almost immediately by the unsmiling and dire faces of people like Paradorn, issuing threats. Speaking of which, Surapong must be on holiday. He's usually Pheu Thai's first non-smiling face of choice.

You're pretty serious today, optically speaking. Looks like you miss Surapong already. Try see your way to enjoy your holiday! Youknow, try to be, as you say, upbeat and cordial. After all, the ayes have it.

Oh and by the way, the world knows what's going on here. The specifics of the CC decision will have to play themselves out before we can see exactly how things develop, and how democratic governments globally might decide they should respond.

Frankly it's laughable that a government should be brought down by a court because the PM transferred one slngle government employee, sort of like dismissing a PM because he did a cooking show on television. This very Thainess can be amusing at first, but it gets just plain silly after a while. So I don't think the CC is sitting comfortably right now with its assigned course of action.

If what Paradorn says is accurate, then the government might be forced to make a final stand, draw the line so to speak, perhaps make the old guard an offer they can't refuse. Does the CC want to precipitate that? It clearly has contracted a case of the willies as this moves ever forward. As for Suthep and the PDRC, they are making yet another last and final this is it stand. This feeling of deja vu makes me feel like all this has happened before.

You miss the point as usual. Both PM's knew the rules. Both chose to break them.

You might find it amusing, as others might find some of the antics in American, British, French, Russian politics etc etc. The fact is governments are subject to laws and controls - and know the penalties for transgressions. The Shin clan and their mates, in whatever guise have shown themselves to be chancers and more overt than the opposition in their brazen disregards, Their believe they can simply lie, cheat, intimidate or bribe their way out of every situation as been proven wrong.

The less than subtle statements by various gang members threatening dire consequences should the courts dare to rule against their wishes would not be tolerated in many societies. Here they're made by caretaker ministers!

[billd766]

"Suthep Thaugsuban, head of the People"

Lolocaust.

The equivalent:

"Yingluck Shin, head of the corrupted government"

When was there not a curropted government in Thailand.

Of course Mr. Palm Oil Corruption himself (The Palm Oil families in which he is one made 4-5 Billion Baht in one year due to shall we say, odd actions when he was the Government Palm Oil Minister) is as clean as a golden whistle.

Oh Good, you have found Suthep out as corrupted.

Please tell me that he was charged with corruption, found guilty and was sentenced to jail.

But did any of that actually happen or not?

If it didn't and he wasn't charged, found guilty and jailed that would make him shall we say innocent.

Of course if YOU have the proof then get him charged with corruption, if not give us all a break from posting unproved rubbish.

[Thai at Heart]

The reason being that the 30B scheme is not working. Doctors sent patients diagnosed with cancer home with aspirin because the 30B is insufficient. This has been said a long time by hospitals and health workers. The government is, once again, not coming up with the money needed to finance this. In the end the poor people suffer. What many don't realize is that it originally was a 50B scheme, which the Democrats invented. This would be enough, together with the Government aid. But Toxin had to do "one better" again and made it 30B. Another vote buying attempt messing up budgets.

Just put a 100 baht a rai tax on land and that will yield such riches that Thailand could have a.gold standard.system. of course as mentioned above, it seems Thai doctors like to look at themselves as businessmen not doctors.

[Publicus]

" We can't allow this to go on any more. This is political psychology. If we allow this to continue, it will bring negative developments for the government," Paradorn said. "

In other words, it's working. This is pretty rich coming from Paradorn - Thaksin's longtime associate who just happens to be at the centre of the Tawil transfer case. It's pretty rich, because all Thaksin has engaged in - with all the family members and associates that have been given such visible portfolios - is " political psychology ". That is all that Thaksin and Pheu Thai have ever been engaged in. So I guess they know how to spot it. The only problem is - their narrative has failed. And they recognize that all these agencies greeting Suthep not only leave a favourable public impression - and frankly they do - they appear to be upbeat and cordial - but make Pheu Thai look really terrible, by comparison. One group of people are smiling. And another is not. Pheu Thai has failed with the optics. The optics of Suthep gatherings are juxtaposed almost immediately by the unsmiling and dire faces of people like Paradorn, issuing threats. Speaking of which, Surapong must be on holiday. He's usually Pheu Thai's first non-smiling face of choice.

You're pretty serious today, optically speaking. Looks like you miss Surapong already. Try see your way to enjoy your holiday! Youknow, try to be, as you say, upbeat and cordial. After all, the ayes have it.

Oh and by the way, the world knows what's going on here. The specifics of the CC decision will have to play themselves out before we can see exactly how things develop, and how democratic governments globally might decide they should respond.

Frankly it's laughable that a government should be brought down by a court because the PM transferred one slngle government employee, sort of like dismissing a PM because he did a cooking show on television. This very Thainess can be amusing at first, but it gets just plain silly after a while. So I don't think the CC is sitting comfortably right now with its assigned course of action.

If what Paradorn says is accurate, then the government might be forced to make a final stand, draw the line so to speak, perhaps make the old guard an offer they can't refuse. Does the CC want to precipitate that? It clearly has contracted a case of the willies as this moves ever forward. As for Suthep and the PDRC, they are making yet another last and final this is it stand. This feeling of deja vu makes me feel like all this has happened before.

You miss the point as usual. Both PM's knew the rules. Both chose to break them.

You might find it amusing, as others might find some of the antics in American, British, French, Russian politics etc etc. The fact is governments are subject to laws and controls - and know the penalties for transgressions. The Shin clan and their mates, in whatever guise have shown themselves to be chancers and more overt than the opposition in their brazen disregards, Their believe they can simply lie, cheat, intimidate or bribe their way out of every situation as been proven wrong.

The less than subtle statements by various gang members threatening dire consequences should the courts dare to rule against their wishes would not be tolerated in many societies. Here they're made by caretaker ministers!

The politics of the countries you choose to cite, America, Britain, France, Russia have commonalities but they have significant differences that you sadly miss completely and entirely. And Thailand and its politics are bush league feudal in comparison and contrast to the countries you mention and many others you don't mention, such as China, India, Brazil, Venezuela and many more.

That Thai politics should be unique is not the big story here. It's the many ways in which Thai politics, government, culture, society, history are unique.

Let's start with Thai Logic and Ethics 1001 that two wrongs make a right and that five more wrongs make it even more right. But then again you miss that entirely. Be careful you don't trip over it.

[rickirs]

What Public health permanent secretary Dr Narong Sahametapat did with Suthep was wrong and he should either resign his position or be fired by the PM. Such actions have nothing to do about his freedom of speech. It has to do with betrayal of the democratic system of an elected government.

The Prime Minister is selected by the House of Representatives. Since in the 2012 elections the Pheu Thai Party won the majority of the House, it selected Yingluck as PM. The Prime Minister selects those persons, usually members of the House of Representatives, whom are named as Ministers or Deputy Ministers to head up the activities of each of the individual ministries of the government. These collection of ministers become the PM's "Cabinet." Thus, Sahametapat got his position through appointment by Yingluck.

Thus, Sahametapat's position is a political appointment and owes his position directly to the the PM and the PTP. His performance is directly accountable to the PM in an unelected position.

Sahametapat's meeting with Suthep as an official of the PM's cabinet at a government facility during duty hours when requested by the PM not to hold such meetings without consultation of the PM was a violation of the PM's trust in his appointment to properly carryout the duties of his office consistent with the policies of the PM and the PTP, particularly embarrasing to the administration considering the arrest warrant against Suthep for murder of redhshirt protestors in 2007 and Suthep's efforts to deprive Thais of their constitutional rights. Furthermore, his embracement of Suthep's politics who does not even represent any House opposition party but as a private citizen intent on overthrowing the PTP government is a betrayal not only to the PTP that put him in his position but to the Thai people who elected the PTP to be in charge of the legislative branch.

Sahametapat had the freedom of speech to raise his reform proposals before the Cabinet and the PM. If he cannot persuade the administration to consider his proposed reforms, he still retained his right to freedom of speech. But that right must be exercised outside of the administration, outside of his position as Minister. To that end he should have resigned his position, resigned from the PTP, and do whatever he wants or say in the Thai political areana. It appears he lacked such fortitude to do so.

The conundrum for Yingluck is that the Court has recently ruled that the PM has no apparent authority over her Cabinet appointments. So when it comes to conflicting loyalties between the PTP and Suthep/PDRC, one might expect another Court challenge if Sahametapat is removed and little doubt the Court will rule against Yingluck again. But that avenue should be persued if necessary if only show the Court's toxicity to the democratic process.

[citizen33]

The reason being that the 30B scheme is not working. Doctors sent patients diagnosed with cancer home with aspirin because the 30B is insufficient. This has been said a long time by hospitals and health workers. The government is, once again, not coming up with the money needed to finance this. In the end the poor people suffer. What many don't realize is that it originally was a 50B scheme, which the Democrats invented. This would be enough, together with the Government aid. But Toxin had to do "one better" again and made it 30B. Another vote buying attempt messing up budgets.

Yes. yes, I'm sure you know all this from first hand experience. The problem is that you will struggle to find any serious commentator who has researched the issue to agree with you. The NHSO spends several billion baht per year on cancer care and it doesn't go on aspirin. There are some poor doctors who are slow to refer on to secondary care, yes, and the waiting lists are too long. But things are better than they were in 2000. I suppose that I could cite published studies until I am blue in the face, but this kind of off the cuff rubbish is what appeals on TVF. We'll hear a lot of arguments of this kind if and when the unelected government Suthep plans starts to dilute the UC scheme. As to your fantasy '50 baht scheme', it never existed. I'm not sure whether you are thinking of the alternatives costings proposed by some academics but this related to the capitation payment and was nothing to do with the Democrats. The latter had rejected the proposals of the MoPH senior experts, who were then forced to enter discussions with TRT. Some of us actually remember what happened.

Edited April 13, 2014 by citizen33

[Morch]

What Public health permanent secretary Dr Narong Sahametapat did with Suthep was wrong and he should either resign his position or be fired by the PM. Such actions have nothing to do about his freedom of speech. It has to do with betrayal of the democratic system of an elected government.

The Prime Minister is selected by the House of Representatives. Since in the 2012 elections the Pheu Thai Party won the majority of the House, it selected Yingluck as PM. The Prime Minister selects those persons, usually members of the House of Representatives, whom are named as Ministers or Deputy Ministers to head up the activities of each of the individual ministries of the government. These collection of ministers become the PM's "Cabinet." Thus, Sahametapat got his position through appointment by Yingluck.

Thus, Sahametapat's position is a political appointment and owes his position directly to the the PM and the PTP. His performance is directly accountable to the PM in an unelected position.

Sahametapat's meeting with Suthep as an official of the PM's cabinet at a government facility during duty hours when requested by the PM not to hold such meetings without consultation of the PM was a violation of the PM's trust in his appointment to properly carryout the duties of his office consistent with the policies of the PM and the PTP, particularly embarrasing to the administration considering the arrest warrant against Suthep for murder of redhshirt protestors in 2007 and Suthep's efforts to deprive Thais of their constitutional rights. Furthermore, his embracement of Suthep's politics who does not even represent any House opposition party but as a private citizen intent on overthrowing the PTP government is a betrayal not only to the PTP that put him in his position but to the Thai people who elected the PTP to be in charge of the legislative branch.

Sahametapat had the freedom of speech to raise his reform proposals before the Cabinet and the PM. If he cannot persuade the administration to consider his proposed reforms, he still retained his right to freedom of speech. But that right must be exercised outside of the administration, outside of his position as Minister. To that end he should have resigned his position, resigned from the PTP, and do whatever he wants or say in the Thai political areana. It appears he lacked such fortitude to do so.

The conundrum for Yingluck is that the Court has recently ruled that the PM has no apparent authority over her Cabinet appointments. So when it comes to conflicting loyalties between the PTP and Suthep/PDRC, one might expect another Court challenge if Sahametapat is removed and little doubt the Court will rule against Yingluck again. But that avenue should be persued if necessary if only show the Court's toxicity to the democratic process.

He's the permanent secretary, not a minister or deputy minister. Not sure that makes him a cabinet member.

Pretty sure he's not a PTP member.

Other than that - I agree that the way he acted is unacceptable for a civil servant.

[marcusd]

"Reformation must come from the participation of all people," he said.

There is no better way for the people to participate in the reformation of their country than through elections.

Yet no new elections are planned!

Guess reforms aren't the real motive of Sutheps' hidden backers.

elections... Not paid for votes

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

How can an educated western adult fall the the tripe spread by electoral losers about bought votes?

Thai elections are free and fair and what cheating exists is practiced by all parties, localised and minimal, ultimately having no measurable effect on results.

Shinawatra mega corruption and extreme levels of vote buying are just facades for an elite based minority to fool the gullible few into supporting the overthrowing of democracy in favour of dictatorship.

Gullible, gullible, gullible you.

what's your experience? Mine is about 100 various provincial Thai,people telling me freely they were threatened with harm and took the money so,they would have the reds think they voted and in many cases had reds stand whilst they voted.

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[marcusd]

The reform he is asking for and that Suthep is proposing is all determined already. It is never articulated or written down but all the elite establishment know what the platform is. It's all encoded and the elite knows it's a squeeze out of poor Thais. The health official is asking for a reform platform that says only those who can pay will receive treatment. In effect they would like to exterminate the Thai poor and sick by not treating them. This would please the elite because it would eliminate them and solve the problem of over crowded hospitals. It's a the Thai pathway to genocide - might be coded as "option 4."

yes yes dear... Yes of course the peasants are starving.

Yes dear we need them for the factories. What? No food? Oh feed them some cake. Off you go I am busy counting my money with Yingluck. Uncle Thaksin needs it

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

Coming soon.

So watch your step and your head.

unlike you I am not imprisoned here and have the means and the will to leave anytime I feel things are a bit rough.

Back to,your two bit comments based on some disingenuous tripe

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

[Publicus]

yes yes dear... Yes of course the peasants are starving.

Yes dear we need them for the factories. What? No food? Oh feed them some cake. Off you go I am busy counting my money with Yingluck. Uncle Thaksin needs it

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

Coming soon.

So watch your step and your head.

unlike you I am not imprisoned here and have the means and the will to leave anytime I feel things are a bit rough.

Back to,your two bit comments based on some disingenuous tripe

Marcusd. Via tapatalk

You keep missing the issues, meaning each thread topic, preferring instead to squat out a steady stream of rhetorical proctology. Some of your posts the past two or three days in direct "reply" to posts I'd made are:

*TOTALLY WRONG. Go back to,your books and discover.

*I cannot believe you surround yourself with books in your bookshop and you still cannot fathom what you read and perpetuate ignorance.

*what job did you previoulsy do? Certainly not one where major decisions are required. Your arguments are definitely beer gall standard.

Your quoted post above is yet another in the same vein/vain.

You have no clue of my professional background or my personal history and you know it. Worse yet, neither are you able to acquire, by your own means in reading my posts, any sense of either or more.

Your speculations are of course made to suit your own purposes and your own warped bent personality. I've ignored each single post, however, I now respond to a series of posts the past few days that are seriously deficient culturally, socially, personally, and relative to the Forum itself.

As I said, you in your tappytalk have lost the plot at TVF. And very easily so besides. That's because you are a laughably fierce and fearsome internet warrior.

[dzodun]

Sounds like a "B" movie from Bollywood, with so many crucial decisions based on

simplistic, childish parameters. Both sides are searching for new cards to play

to see what works. Similar foolishness happened in the U.S. when the Supreme Court

signed off on Obamacare. Money, threats, and power trump issues every time. Two

and two are five if the courts say so.