Pistorius murder trial: Prosecutor accuses athlete of using emotional outbursts to dodge questions

[webfact]

Pistorius murder trial: Prosecutor accuses athlete of using emotional outbursts to dodge questions
Lisa Davies, in Pretoria

Pretoria: Oscar Pistorius was accused of using emotional outbursts to avoid difficult questions, changing his defence and screaming at his girlfriend to “get the f--- out” of his home the night he shot and killed her in what was a torrid sixth day of evidence at his murder trial.

Under pressure on the fourth day of relentless cross-examination, chief prosecutor Gerrie Nel appeared to tie Pistorius in knots as he continued to explore the fine details of his story, submitting to him his version was so improbable it was simply “not true.”

In a bid to prove he is lying about his account of what occurred in the early hours of Valentine’s Day last year, Mr Nel alleged numerous inconsistencies in his version, highlighting that Pistorius was a stickler for detail on some matters and had complete memory blank on others.

Twice the court was adjourned to allow the athlete time to regain his composure, prompting an increasingly exasperated Mr Nel to suggest he was using tears to mask difficulties in answering questions and keeping his story straight.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/pistorius-murder-trial-prosecutor-accuses-athlete-of-using-emotional-outbursts-to-dodge-questions-20140415-zquso.html

-- THE AGE 2014-04-15

[Credo]

This seems like a good reason not to keep a gun in the bedroom.

[aguy30]

The prosecution's procedure for questioning Pistorius is despicable. It is constant badgering and would not be allowed in many first world counties. The only thing missing is connecting electrical wires to Pistorius's testacles.

[realenglish1]

The only way the prosecution can gain high ground is by badgering Otherwise it looks like he does not have a leg to stand on

[thailiketoo]

The prosecution's procedure for questioning Pistorius is despicable. It is constant badgering and would not be allowed in many first world counties. The only thing missing is connecting electrical wires to Pistorius's testacles.

The prosecutor is trying to put words in Oscar's mouth and thoughts in his head as as the judge corrected the prosecutor on a couple of occasions taking the side of the defendant.

I am surprised no one in the news has pointed out what a loon the prosecutor is. I could do 1000% better by just being low key and cordial. No need to harass the guy.

It was an open and shut case till the prosecutor opened his mouth and began to cast doubt on the course of events.

Reminds me of OJ trying to put on the glove.

It's kind of fun to watch. Oscar is not that bright a guy but he seems a brain trust when Gerrie questions him.

[tingtongteesood]

The despicable thing is that he murdered his girlfriend in a fit of anger...( allegedly ). No sympathy from me whatsoever.

Edited April 15, 2014 by tingtongteesood

[Asiantravel]

The prosecution's procedure for questioning Pistorius is despicable. It is constant badgering and would not be allowed in many first world counties. The only thing missing is connecting electrical wires to Pistorius's testacles.

The prosecutor is trying to put words in Oscar's mouth and thoughts in his head as as the judge corrected the prosecutor on a couple of occasions taking the side of the defendant.

I am surprised no one in the news has pointed out what a loon the prosecutor is. I could do 1000% better by just being low key and cordial. No need to harass the guy.

It was an open and shut case till the prosecutor opened his mouth and began to cast doubt on the course of events.

Reminds me of OJ trying to put on the glove.

It's kind of fun to watch. Oscar is not that bright a guy but he seems a brain trust when Gerrie questions him.

I am astounded that you keep disparaging this man and you even infer you are more highly skilled than him. Are you even a lawyer?

If you took the time to read what he said in the infamous Selebi trial you will see he used very similar tactics to what he is doing now and he won that case.

At one stage Selebi said to him: "Mr Nel, please, it doesn't help to be obnoxious", to which he replied: "Mr Selebi, now that you are in trouble you take on the prosecutor ... You can't answer ... you are an intelligent, educated person so you pretend not to understand the question."

And the International Association of Prosecutors (IAP) based in Vienna have only good things to say about him and even presented him with a special achievement award.

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-20-pistorius-prosecutor-nel-has-integrity-beyond-reproach

[thailiketoo]

The prosecution's procedure for questioning Pistorius is despicable. It is constant badgering and would not be allowed in many first world counties. The only thing missing is connecting electrical wires to Pistorius's testacles.

The prosecutor is trying to put words in Oscar's mouth and thoughts in his head as as the judge corrected the prosecutor on a couple of occasions taking the side of the defendant.

I am surprised no one in the news has pointed out what a loon the prosecutor is. I could do 1000% better by just being low key and cordial. No need to harass the guy.

It was an open and shut case till the prosecutor opened his mouth and began to cast doubt on the course of events.

Reminds me of OJ trying to put on the glove.

It's kind of fun to watch. Oscar is not that bright a guy but he seems a brain trust when Gerrie questions him.

I am astounded that you keep disparaging this man and you even infer you are more highly skilled than him. Are you even a lawyer?

If you took the time to read what he said in the infamous Selebi trial you will see he used very similar tactics to what he is doing now and he won that case.

At one stage Selebi said to him: "Mr Nel, please, it doesn't help to be obnoxious", to which he replied: "Mr Selebi, now that you are in trouble you take on the prosecutor ... You can't answer ... you are an intelligent, educated person so you pretend not to understand the question."

And the International Association of Prosecutors (IAP) based in Vienna have only good things to say about him and even presented him with a special achievement award.

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-20-pistorius-prosecutor-nel-has-integrity-beyond-reproach

I completely understand what you are saying. I read all the accounts too. But I'll bet you have not watched a day of the trial in real time on BBC. I watched it yesterday (staying home for a few days). I didn't read anywhere in the media of the number of times the judge corrected Nel or gave him bad looks.

I don't get why the media is giving this guy a pass? I understand what you are saying and you sound like an articulate person that's why I'm sure you have not watched a day of the trial.

Correct me if you have actually watched the live coverage for a couple of days.

PS I went to law school.

Edited April 15, 2014 by thailiketoo

[Ulic]

The minutia of detail asked by the prosecutor is ridiculous to ask of any witness and inconsistencies of detail from memory is to be expected. End of story. The prosecutors would be well served if this were a jury trial but with a professional judge who has been through many trials she should be able to see through all the prosecutors BS. Oscar Pistorius's story and state of mind are entirely believable. As far as I am concerned the pre-meditated murder charge is a reach to far but culpable homicide is probably the right charge. As I understand OP's version of events is probable from the forensic evidence. Witness testimony is absolutely unreliable both his and others. Especially when it comes to the detail asked by the prosecutor. Unfortunately only one person knows the truth and that is Oscar P.

So for me, he is not guilty of pre-meditated murder but is guilty of culpable homicide as a reasonable person should have

taken more care before firing his gun four times through the bathroom door whether it was an intruder or not.

The judge will have a tough time sorting through the BS and the culpable homicide sentence. Some jail time

but there is no minimum sentence. I am thinking 6 years maybe less will be the sentence handed down.

[Soutpeel]

The prosecution's procedure for questioning Pistorius is despicable. It is constant badgering and would not be allowed in many first world counties. The only thing missing is connecting electrical wires to Pistorius's testacles.

The prosecutor is trying to put words in Oscar's mouth and thoughts in his head as as the judge corrected the prosecutor on a couple of occasions taking the side of the defendant.

I am surprised no one in the news has pointed out what a loon the prosecutor is. I could do 1000% better by just being low key and cordial. No need to harass the guy.

It was an open and shut case till the prosecutor opened his mouth and began to cast doubt on the course of events.

Reminds me of OJ trying to put on the glove.

It's kind of fun to watch. Oscar is not that bright a guy but he seems a brain trust when Gerrie questions him.

I am astounded that you keep disparaging this man and you even infer you are more highly skilled than him. Are you even a lawyer?

If you took the time to read what he said in the infamous Selebi trial you will see he used very similar tactics to what he is doing now and he won that case.

At one stage Selebi said to him: "Mr Nel, please, it doesn't help to be obnoxious", to which he replied: "Mr Selebi, now that you are in trouble you take on the prosecutor ... You can't answer ... you are an intelligent, educated person so you pretend not to understand the question."

And the International Association of Prosecutors (IAP) based in Vienna have only good things to say about him and even presented him with a special achievement award.

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-20-pistorius-prosecutor-nel-has-integrity-beyond-reproach

I completely understand what you are saying. I read all the accounts too. But I'll bet you have not watched a day of the trial in real time on BBC. I watched it yesterday (staying home for a few days). I didn't read anywhere in the media of the number of times the judge corrected Nel or gave him bad looks.

I don't get why the media is giving this guy a pass? I understand what you are saying and you sound like an articulate person that's why I'm sure you have not watched a day of the trial.

Correct me if you have actually watched the live coverage for a couple of days.

PS I went to law school.

You may have been to law school but did you actually pass the course ?

This is the same person who had to ask why the prosecutor was being addressed as "my lady" even though he was male, which leads me to think your sum total of legal training came from watching re-runs of LA law

[danmarnj]

The only way the prosecution can gain high ground is by badgering Otherwise it looks like he does not have a leg to stand on

But he still has to put his best foot forward

[rickirs]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The prosecution's procedure for questioning Pistorius is despicable. It is constant badgering and would not be allowed in many first world counties. The only thing missing is connecting electrical wires to Pistorius's testacles.

Pistorius is the only witness to the shooting. So the four charges against him, premediated murder being the most grevious, will require the prosecution to build a circumstantial case against Pistorius. You can assume that if Pistorius was guilty of PM, he would lie and contrive stories to fit the evidence.

So it would be the prosecution's strategy to pressure Pistorius under aggressive questioning to cause him to contradict his testimony. Thus far it seems to have worked as Pistorius' original defense was that he acted in fear to the presence of an alleged intruder seems to have been changed to one of self defense against an unknown intruder. Pistorius has also made several selective memory failures like he said he didn't know what he was going to do the with gun that he grabbed from the bedroom although he said he was in fear for his and Reeva's lives, and doesn't remember firing four shots; note that he has been to the firing range several times to practice. He also has made several major contradictions to the chain of events that occurred up to his shooting. For example, he stated that Reeva was asleep with him in bed when he heard "sounds" from the bathroom area but all her clothes and personal items were still in her overnight bag. The prosecutor is doing his job.

[thailiketoo]

The prosecutor is trying to put words in Oscar's mouth and thoughts in his head as as the judge corrected the prosecutor on a couple of occasions taking the side of the defendant.

I am surprised no one in the news has pointed out what a loon the prosecutor is. I could do 1000% better by just being low key and cordial. No need to harass the guy.

It was an open and shut case till the prosecutor opened his mouth and began to cast doubt on the course of events.

Reminds me of OJ trying to put on the glove.

It's kind of fun to watch. Oscar is not that bright a guy but he seems a brain trust when Gerrie questions him.

I am astounded that you keep disparaging this man and you even infer you are more highly skilled than him. Are you even a lawyer?

If you took the time to read what he said in the infamous Selebi trial you will see he used very similar tactics to what he is doing now and he won that case.

At one stage Selebi said to him: "Mr Nel, please, it doesn't help to be obnoxious", to which he replied: "Mr Selebi, now that you are in trouble you take on the prosecutor ... You can't answer ... you are an intelligent, educated person so you pretend not to understand the question."

And the International Association of Prosecutors (IAP) based in Vienna have only good things to say about him and even presented him with a special achievement award.

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-20-pistorius-prosecutor-nel-has-integrity-beyond-reproach

I completely understand what you are saying. I read all the accounts too. But I'll bet you have not watched a day of the trial in real time on BBC. I watched it yesterday (staying home for a few days). I didn't read anywhere in the media of the number of times the judge corrected Nel or gave him bad looks.

I don't get why the media is giving this guy a pass? I understand what you are saying and you sound like an articulate person that's why I'm sure you have not watched a day of the trial.

Correct me if you have actually watched the live coverage for a couple of days.

PS I went to law school.

You may have been to law school but did you actually pass the course ?

This is the same person who had to ask why the prosecutor was being addressed as "my lady" even though he was male, which leads me to think your sum total of legal training came from watching re-runs of LA law

Another dorky attack! Flame flame flame......

Back to my point. A male prosecutor is asking another male, defendant, a question. "Did you shoot the toilet?" "No, my lady."

I listened for 6 hours to this stuff and it sounds funny. Over and over again a man asks another man a question and the other guy replies after every exchange, "my lady." It sounds stupid.

Side bar: Is it impossible for you to post without flaming? Flaming is attacking me and not my content. Try it sometime. It's really kindergartenish to keep flaming every post.

[Scott]

Let's stop the inflammatory remarks toward others. A question was asked and it has been answered it.

Please stay on the topic.

[thailiketoo]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The prosecution's procedure for questioning Pistorius is despicable. It is constant badgering and would not be allowed in many first world counties. The only thing missing is connecting electrical wires to Pistorius's testacles.

Pistorius is the only witness to the shooting. So the four charges against him, premediated murder being the most grevious, will require the prosecution to build a circumstantial case against Pistorius. You can assume that if Pistorius was guilty of PM, he would lie and contrive stories to fit the evidence.

So it would be the prosecution's strategy to pressure Pistorius under aggressive questioning to cause him to contradict his testimony. Thus far it seems to have worked as Pistorius' original defense was that he acted in fear to the presence of an alleged intruder seems to have been changed to one of self defense against an unknown intruder. Pistorius has also made several selective memory failures like he said he didn't know what he was going to do the with gun that he grabbed from the bedroom although he said he was in fear for his and Reeva's lives, and doesn't remember firing four shots; note that he has been to the firing range several times to practice. He also has made several major contradictions to the chain of events that occurred up to his shooting. For example, he stated that Reeva was asleep with him in bed when he heard "sounds" from the bathroom area but all her clothes and personal items were still in her overnight bag. The prosecutor is doing his job.

I have shot at a number of people. Whenever possible I have not shot them through closed doors. If I had a machine gun maybe but not a pistol. You gotta be a real goof to try and kill someone you can't see, with a pistol.

The evidence is a bunch of holes in the bathroom door. That is not a good way of killing someone. If you want to kill someone first you open the door second you shoot.

If my memory is correct the term is "recon by fire." When I got that command I didn't take out my pistol and shoot.

Edited April 15, 2014 by thailiketoo

[wooloomooloo]

I've seen a fair bit of the trial and to summarise for those that haven't there's been 22 days of constant sobbing and puking by Oscar interspersed with brief cross examinations and then short adjournments so Oscar can dry his eyes. Then repeats the same tired old formula.

Had Oscar remained focused and composed he'd have finished his time in the box days ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited April 15, 2014 by wooloomooloo

[thailiketoo]

I've seen a fair bit of the trial and to summarise for those that haven't there's been 22 days of constant sobbing and puking by Oscar interspersed with brief cross examinations and then short adjournments so Oscar can dry his eyes. Then repeats the same tired old formula.

Had Oscar remained focused and composed he'd have finished his time in the box days ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Don't forget the tea breaks. I find those very civilized but they break the action at odd times. Also the prosecutor showed a close up photo of the victims blown up head. Which I can't imagine happening as there was never any doubt nor denial that he shot her. The prosecution only brought out the picture to rattle OP.

Edited April 15, 2014 by thailiketoo

[thailiketoo]

Surely premeditated murder could simply mean he intended to kill her? He knew she was in the bathroom so the bullets fired from his pistol in a rage were intended to kill her.No need for a grand plan, simply intention.

Premeditated means planned. So we go to a shooting range. I drop a ball into a mock up of a bathroom and you stand outside the door and try and hit it with a pistol. Odds? 1 in 100. Either he is the dumbest murderer in a decade or he didn't plan it.

Edited April 15, 2014 by thailiketoo

[bannork]

Surely premeditated murder could simply mean he intended to kill her? He knew she was in the bathroom so the bullets fired from his pistol in a rage were intended to kill her.No need for a grand plan, simply intention.

Premeditated means planned. So we go to a shooting range. I drop a ball into a mock up of a bathroom and you stand outside the door and try and hit it with a pistol. Odds? 1 in 100. Either he is the dumbest murderer in a decade or he didn't plan it.

In some American states premeditated can be defined as deciding in just seconds before committing the murder. I don't know SA law but I would guess shooting through the door, in a rage, knowing she is behind it, could be called premeditated. Many people do dumb things when they're in a rage.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[Scott]

Posts deleted. Continued inflammatory remarks directed at other posters will result in warnings and suspensions.

[uptheos]

The despicable thing is that he murdered his girlfriend in a fit of anger...( allegedly ). No sympathy from me whatsoever.

In that case if the judge finds him guilty, it's more likely to be the lesser culpable homicide (manslaughter) verdict.

The defence has entered a Valentine Card given to Oscar hours before he shot her.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-reeva-steenkamp-told-athlete-she-loved-him-in-valentines-day-letter-9261590.html

[uptheos]

Here in lies the problem you are attempting to disagree with me without presenting an opposing view.

See, I'm saying no one, even a retarded person would contemplate or plan on killing someone with a pistol when the chances of killing the victim was only 1 out of 100 times or 1%. Any thought by anyone would establish that there was little chance of hitting the victim in the head through a closed door causing death.

If he wanted to kill her he picked one of the least likely scenarios to accomplish that objective.

The judge in this cases does not strike me as an ignorant person or a person with an agenda so she will acquit or find him gujilty of a lessor charge as would any sane person.

The prosecutor going for the most hated judicial person of the year award is not helping his case even in South Africa.

I think you're absolutely right.

However.....

"She comes down very hard in cases of violence against women, namely because outside of every war zone, South Africa has the highest rate of female deaths by gunshots,"

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/the-woman-who-will-decide-oscar-pistorius-fate-1.1764771

[Soutpeel]

While TV,s finest legal minds in US law, argue about US law,

The gentleman concerned will not be convicted of premeditated murder, however he will get done for manslaughter which could get him 15 years, however one suspects he will get a 5 to 10 year sentence and will be out in 3

[Donnie Brasco]

I've never liked this guy.

The creep will likely get ten years and he'll be out in less than six.

Upon final conviction he'll stay in the news by first leaving the blades at home.

He'll likely get into special jail because he's, um, let's see, oh yeah, otherly abled.

Once he's inside, he'll complain that the lads verbally bully him 'cause he is "different".

They'll give him his blades back to stop his moaning

He'll spring himself early.

"Sometimes, 'fuggedabowdit' just means fuggedabowdit. . . . "

[uptheos]

While TV,s finest legal minds in US law, argue about US law,

The gentleman concerned will not be convicted of premeditated murder, however he will get done for manslaughter which could get him 15 years, however one suspects he will get a 5 to 10 year sentence and will be out in 3

Plus he's also charged with three contraventions of the Firearms Control Act, one of illegal possession of ammunition and two of discharging.

.

[Soutpeel]

While TV,s finest legal minds in US law, argue about US law,

The gentleman concerned will not be convicted of premeditated murder, however he will get done for manslaughter which could get him 15 years, however one suspects he will get a 5 to 10 year sentence and will be out in 3

Plus he's also charged with three contraventions of the Firearms Control Act, one of illegal possession of ammunition and two of discharging.

.

To be honest in the South African context, these are pretty minor charges, would be a bit more serious, if the firearm concerned was an AK-47 LOL

[uptheos]

I didn't realise the assessors can overrule the judge.

1. Two "assessors" are on hand to help decide Pistorius' fate. The judge in the Pistorius trial has appointed two "assessors" -- legal experts who help the judge evaluate a case. Under South African law, assessors can potentially "overrule" the judge by a majority vote when it comes to deciding the verdict based on the facts of the case, South Africa's Independent Online explains. For example, if both assessors find Pistorius not guilty of premeditated murder based on the facts presented, that'll be the accepted verdict even if the judge disagrees. However, when it comes to questions of law and sentencing, the judge has the final say.

[Soutpeel]

I didn't realise the assessors can overrule the judge.

• Two "assessors" are on hand to help decide Pistorius' fate. The judge in the Pistorius trial has appointed two "assessors" -- legal experts who help the judge evaluate a case. Under South African law, assessors can potentially "overrule" the judge by a majority vote when it comes to deciding the verdict based on the facts of the case, South Africa's Independent Online explains. For example, if both assessors find Pistorius not guilty of premeditated murder based on the facts presented, that'll be the accepted verdict even if the judge disagrees. However, when it comes to questions of law and sentencing, the judge has the final say.

They can overrule , there is a provision in law for this, but it very unlikely this will happen, can't think of a case off hand in SA were both assessors have gone against the judges ruling

[F430murci]

While TV,s finest legal minds in US law, argue about US law,

The gentleman concerned will not be convicted of premeditated murder, however he will get done for manslaughter which could get him 15 years, however one suspects he will get a 5 to 10 year sentence and will be out in 3

Haha, so correct. I apologize for the digression.

I think dude is guilty of first degree and the evidence is there to support such a conviction. He would most likely be convicted of first degree under normal circumstances. Unfortunately, these media circus trials tend to have bizarre outcomes. So many factors at play here. Who knows what will happen.