Dead battery, alternator on Songkran

[ClareQuilty]

I rarely drive my car, but during the awful Songkran period one must drive a car every day, as motorbike driving is too hazardous, unpleasant, and unhealthy. Alas, the car wouldn't start yesterday, but, it being, happily, a stick-shift I simply push started it (with the help of two elderly Thai ladies in my soi, comically enough).

At B-Quick (the only shop open during the holiday), they said the battery was good but just needed charging. After a charge the car worked till the next day, when it again wouldn't start. Push started again (though this time with the assistance of a strapping man), and took it back to B-Quick.. they still say the battery is good, but the problem is the alternator, which of course won't be available from the auto-parts store till Thursday or Friday.

Would you fellows say this is a definitive diagnosis? Couldn't just be a short draining the battery? Just wondering because the new alternator is likely to be 3,000+ baht, a big hit in the old budget.

[arthurwait]

Yes it could just be a short. Good luck finding it.

What readings is it giving with the engine running ?

[transam]

You do need a tester to see if the alternator is working.

[ClareQuilty]

Well, the B-Quick guys had a little machine hooked up to the battery, which when the car was off showed the battery to be good. Then they started the car and idling with the headlights on, the same machine apparently showed them that the alternator wasn't charging (much). The readout said 'good battery' and 'low charge'...

[arthurwait]

What is your engine earth strap like ? They often seem to be awful here.

[transam]

Well, the B-Quick guys had a little machine hooked up to the battery, which when the car was off showed the battery to be good. Then they started the car and idling with the headlights on, the same machine apparently showed them that the alternator wasn't charging (much). The readout said 'good battery' and 'low charge'...

Their meter should show the battery Voltage at around 12.7 volts, engine running high 13 volts. If not the voltage regulator in or on the alternator is usually the fault. BUT, they will always say you need a new alternator. But it won't be new, will be a recon, replaced voltage regulator......

[arthurwait]

Well, the B-Quick guys had a little machine hooked up to the battery, which when the car was off showed the battery to be good. Then they started the car and idling with the headlights on, the same machine apparently showed them that the alternator wasn't charging (much). The readout said 'good battery' and 'low charge'...

Their meter should show the battery Voltage at around 12.7 volts, engine running high 13 volts. If not the voltage regulator in or on the alternator is usually the fault. BUT, they will always say you need a new alternator. But it won't be new, will be a recon, replaced voltage regulator......

Not if it's an 18 volt battery.

[transam]

Well, the B-Quick guys had a little machine hooked up to the battery, which when the car was off showed the battery to be good. Then they started the car and idling with the headlights on, the same machine apparently showed them that the alternator wasn't charging (much). The readout said 'good battery' and 'low charge'...

Their meter should show the battery Voltage at around 12.7 volts, engine running high 13 volts. If not the voltage regulator in or on the alternator is usually the fault. BUT, they will always say you need a new alternator. But it won't be new, will be a recon, replaced voltage regulator......

Not if it's an 18 volt battery.

It could be 6 volt on this ride.. .....................

[ClareQuilty]

Sorry I don't know where the 'engine earth strap' is.. in the US I suppose we'd say 'grounding wire' or something like that.

Anyway, I don't think they exactly jumped to the conclusion of the alternator - the first time I brought the car in they didn't suggest it, just charged the battery. Only after it failed to start the second day did they arrive at the alternator diagnosis. In any case I'll certainly get a second or third opinion. I prefer locally owned repair shops over B-Quick, particularly one I use where the owner speaks passable/fair English and is over 60 (I have a theory = elderly mechanics are better for old cars).

[arthurwait]

Sorry I don't know where the 'engine earth strap' is.. in the US I suppose we'd say 'grounding wire' or something like that.

Anyway, I don't think they exactly jumped to the conclusion of the alternator - the first time I brought the car in they didn't suggest it, just charged the battery. Only after it failed to start the second day did they arrive at the alternator diagnosis. In any case I'll certainly get a second or third opinion. I prefer locally owned repair shops over B-Quick, particularly one I use where the owner speaks passable/fair English and is over 60 (I have a theory = elderly mechanics are better for old cars).

Just look for a wire from the engine to the body shell. Maybe be shrouded or open twisted/braided wire.

[vtjforyou]

Of course it's alternator, so evident, other replies from morons are amazing...

[WarpSpeed]

Easy test on an older car like that, that has no real electronics to be bothered with. Start the car and have a mechanic disconnect the battery if it stalls the alternator has failed, it should continue to run.. If it does run, not likely to be the alternator but more likely to be a short somewhere or a light, etc. is on you're not aware of..

[transam]

Sorry I don't know where the 'engine earth strap' is.. in the US I suppose we'd say 'grounding wire' or something like that.

Anyway, I don't think they exactly jumped to the conclusion of the alternator - the first time I brought the car in they didn't suggest it, just charged the battery. Only after it failed to start the second day did they arrive at the alternator diagnosis. In any case I'll certainly get a second or third opinion. I prefer locally owned repair shops over B-Quick, particularly one I use where the owner speaks passable/fair English and is over 60 (I have a theory = elderly mechanics are better for old cars).

Yeh, me.................

[IMHO]

Sorry I don't know where the 'engine earth strap' is.. in the US I suppose we'd say 'grounding wire' or something like that.

Anyway, I don't think they exactly jumped to the conclusion of the alternator - the first time I brought the car in they didn't suggest it, just charged the battery. Only after it failed to start the second day did they arrive at the alternator diagnosis. In any case I'll certainly get a second or third opinion. I prefer locally owned repair shops over B-Quick, particularly one I use where the owner speaks passable/fair English and is over 60 (I have a theory = elderly mechanics are better for old cars).

My theory is, mechanics with lots of experience are better for all cars

[transam]

Of course it's alternator, so evident, other replies from morons are amazing...

Whats with the "morons" thing Einstein, you woke up and found she's buggered off or something.......................

[VocalNeal]

Claire,

Tomorrow go somewhere for a second opinion. I'm not saying it isn't the alternator but...

Is the alternator belt tight?

Do you have a radio connected directly to 12v and not through the ACC circuit. ie. have to turn the key to listen to the radio?

On an older car like yours it will not hurt to disconnect the battery briefly while the engine is running. If the engine stops the alternator is not providing any power. If the engine runs turn on the headlights, if bright it maybe OK. and it is a bad/intermittent ground problem or dirty connections somewhere.

That being said electrical things do fail suddenly so if all was good before and it has happened suddenly then likely the B-Quik guys are correct.

[WarpSpeed]

Claire,

Tomorrow go somewhere for a second opinion. I'm not saying it isn't the alternator but...

Is the alternator belt tight?

Do you have a radio connected directly to 12v and not through the ACC circuit. ie. have to turn the key to listen to the radio?

On an older car like yours it will not hurt to disconnect the battery briefly while the engine is running. If the engine stops the alternator is not providing any power. If the engine runs turn on the headlights, if bright it maybe OK. and it is a bad/intermittent ground problem or dirty connections somewhere.

That being said electrical things do fail suddenly so if all was good before and it has happened suddenly then likely the B-Quik guys are correct.

Yes, the above highlighted portion is very prevalent in Thailand, never found a single one properly wired out of multiple used cars bought and sold there, I always ended up properly wiring them to shut off with the ignition switch but with the proper accessory wire installed to avoid losing the program which was also NEVER properly wired in.

[ClareQuilty]

Thanks guys. There is no radio in the car. Or, that is, only the original radio which doesn't work. What good would a radio do me in Thailand?

I'll be taking it in tomorrow for the second opinion, will suggest the battery-disconnect-while-running idea.

[VocalNeal]

I had a friend with a car and the radio was directly connected to 12v. It developed a problem and would drain the battery over time even when "OFF"

If the mechanic is under 30 he may give you some nonsense about ruining ECU, GPS, reversing camera etc. if you disconnect the alternator. Given the age of the car anywhere that works on taxis would be good.

Edited April 17, 2014 by VocalNeal

[ClareQuilty]

The car started fine today after 2 days sitting, took it in to my regular shop today, he said the battery and alternator were fine, tip-top even, but that he wasn't 100% sure about the starter, so he sent me to an electrical specialist shop. There they checked it out and said all three were fine - battery, alternator, and starter. The car continues to start perfectly. So.. I wonder what is going on? Intermitten problem? Those are the worst.

[arthurwait]

Loose/ ill fitting battery terminal , loose wire somewhere ?

[VocalNeal]

Failure to start? Intermittent? Difficult to say without being there but did it make clicking sounds or did it grind away slowly and not catch? If it happens again, turn on the headlights then turn the key and see if the headlights go dim. If not, it is not the battery/charging circuit it is the starter relay or a loose connection. If no clicking at all it could be the key switch. Also could be stuck brushes in the starter, wallop oops sorry tap stater with a hammer!

Edited April 18, 2014 by VocalNeal

[WarpSpeed]

Car that old could definitely have an intermittent dead short in the starter motor windings or solenoid.. When you shut it off if it happens to stop at that point then electric can flow across and it wouldn't show up on any checks, had this exact thing happen before and it has all the symptoms you speak of. Also make sure the terminals are very clean with fresh metal exposed, take them off and use some coca cola and a wire brush to clean them and then put the terminals back on..

Edited April 18, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[ClareQuilty]

Failure to start? Intermittent? Difficult to say without being there but did it make clicking sounds or did it grind away slowly and not catch? If it happens again, turn on the headlights then turn the key and see if the headlights go dim. If not, it is not the battery/charging circuit it is the starter relay or a loose connection. If no clicking at all it could be the key switch. Also could be stuck brushes in the starter, wallop oops sorry tap stater with a hammer!

When the problem occurs it clicks but no grinding whatsoever. That is, the starter does not engage at all.

WarpSpeed, the repairman did mention that (in Thai) as a possibility, but you know it wasn't super clear at the time.

I guess a new starter may, in the end, be the cure.

Just a thought - if the car doesn't start due to this 'dead spot' in the starter, could I simply push the car slightly and let out the clutch to nudge the starter/motor into a different position? Or would doing that not effect this position?

[transam]

Did have a starter where the contacts (brushes) had worn down and the graphite (brushes stuff) ended up causing problems in the starter. Stripped down, cleaned, new brushes. Done.

[WarpSpeed]

Failure to start? Intermittent? Difficult to say without being there but did it make clicking sounds or did it grind away slowly and not catch? If it happens again, turn on the headlights then turn the key and see if the headlights go dim. If not, it is not the battery/charging circuit it is the starter relay or a loose connection. If no clicking at all it could be the key switch. Also could be stuck brushes in the starter, wallop oops sorry tap stater with a hammer!

When the problem occurs it clicks but no grinding whatsoever. That is, the starter does not engage at all.

WarpSpeed, the repairman did mention that (in Thai) as a possibility, but you know it wasn't super clear at the time.

I guess a new starter may, in the end, be the cure.

Just a thought - if the car doesn't start due to this 'dead spot' in the starter, could I simply push the car slightly and let out the clutch to nudge the starter/motor into a different position? Or would doing that not effect this position?

Unfortunately no, it won't effect the position of the armature in the motor, any shorting brushes or the solenoid. Sometimes a mechanics tool (more commonly known as a hammer a la Jeremy Clarkson, the Brits will get that one) with small hits on the starter if it's reachable, while the car is being turned over will help though.

Edited April 19, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[VocalNeal]

Failure to start? Intermittent? Difficult to say without being there but did it make clicking sounds or did it grind away slowly and not catch? If it happens again, turn on the headlights then turn the key and see if the headlights go dim. If not, it is not the battery/charging circuit it is the starter relay or a loose connection. If no clicking at all it could be the key switch. Also could be stuck brushes in the starter, wallop oops sorry tap stater with a hammer!

When the problem occurs it clicks but no grinding whatsoever. That is, the starter does not engage at all.

WarpSpeed, the repairman did mention that (in Thai) as a possibility, but you know it wasn't super clear at the time.

I guess a new starter may, in the end, be the cure.

Just a thought - if the car doesn't start due to this 'dead spot' in the starter, could I simply push the car slightly and let out the clutch to nudge the starter/motor into a different position? Or would doing that not effect this position?

Here is a picture of the starter.

The clicking you heard was the solenoid engaging (the small cylinder on the top) it pushes the gear into the flywheel and at the same time closes two contacts which provide power to the motor.

That is likely the problem. Worn or stuck brushes.

If in a village/small town you maybe able to find a mechanic who is willing to clean/rebuild your starter. More likely they will replace it with a rebuilt one and sell the old one back to the rebuild shop.

[WarpSpeed]

Nice find Neal.. Sometimes though the solenoid may click but not have enough impetus to throw the Bendix drive forward. It works magnetically and when the solenoid is actuated by power when you turn the key and it pulls the lever in hard and that throws the drive forward into the fly wheel while engaging the motor to rotate the engine over automatically at the same time. When the engine engages and starts, it kicks the Bendix back out so it doesn't strip off the fly wheel teeth. The Bendix is the small gear on the tip that engages the fly wheel teeth, the pic being used is en Francais so it doesn't call it a Bendix it calls it a pinion yada yada so and so, can't read it properly it's too small but so what anyways?

[ClareQuilty]

Thanks for the posts and pics VocalNeal. WarpSpeed. The car's been starting fine now for a few days. Also I completely forgot to mention that about ten days ago I had new 'points' put in the distributor.. not sure if that could have anything to do with it..

[WarpSpeed]

In the case of the points probably not, hopefully the problem is gone? But that is exactly how a dead spot acts it may go weeks until that one unlucky time when you last need it to happen and it stops on that spot.. Keep a small hammer with you..