PM Yingluck heads for judicial showdown

[ginjag]

You are right, there were foreign fighters under the red shirts at that time

Do you have a problem with the English language? You understand the basics, yes? Right, then please tell me why, when I write this,

"You don't have to go back that far, unless I'm mistaken and the RTA regiments involved in abhisits "crackdown" were populated by foreigners"

Why on earth would you think that I was referring to the red shirts?

and then you take it further alleging that foreign fighters were involved with the red shirts in 2010! Do you believe everything you read? If so, I can recommend cartalucci or yon or better still a comprehensive "true" story of what happened in 2010. it's English title is The Simple Truth, read it. you'll love it.

(though if he's heard of Oscar Wilde you may wonder why he chose that title)

I you were here well before and during the 2010 you will not have to read anything or be in command of perfect English.

Maybe you could have been reading what you wanted to believe. Sort of self inflicted brainwash.

Sorry, run that past me again in English.

If you were here when these past events took place and were impartial you would see both sides to the story, your English is more gobbledegook.

My last sentence sums your stance up. don't try to be clever, if you were you would see the wrong here, and who IS the cause, 1 man, convicted away for holiday ?? is he.

[Artisi]

Members are always refering and comparing things in thailand to what happens in the west

and in the west it would never happen what happens in Thailand

so lets look at that

The Premier of NSW in Australia today quit because he made a mistake and said he did not get an expensive bottle of wine when he did

he never whinged, wined, twisted his foot etc, just said yes, I did and quit

he gave dignity to the office he held

so why are we not asking Yingluck to take an example for his book

when she went to Australia she said how great their democracy was

so Yingluck, be a real leader and give back dignity to your office, and retire

or is it do what I say, not what I do

Come on now, a bottle of Grange Hermitage far out guns a few lousy billion Bht and can't be compared - so you don't expect YL to resign do you?

Plus it has a lot to do with integrity - unfortunately this word doesn't appear in the fugitives little red book.

I take that as tongue in cheek

Correct - but not to YL / PTP.

[fcbkk]

The government argument re the cabinet hangs on the fact that it has already vacated office en masse in accordance with Article 180 as a result of the dissolution of parliament and that Article 181 requires it to stay in as caretaker until the next government is formed. Thus the argument goes they cannot be made to vacate office en masse again on the PM's removal from office under another clause of Article 180.

There is certainly some legal merit to this argument and the court might concur with it and leave the rest of the cabinet in place, even if it removes YL. It also has some weaknesses though. The principal of hearings to remove politicians from office retroactively is well established and several have undergone impeachment votes after leaving office, including Suthep and Somchai. The government's argument also implies total impunity for caretaker governments, even though they are in office for at least 3 months when things are working normally. At any rate the argument for impunity for a caretaker government applies equally to a caretaker PM but the judges voted unanimously to hear the case against her.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

The notion of de facto blanket immunity for a caretaker PM implies the extremely dangerous possibility that all you have to do, is to dissolve parliament and then you can get away with anything you bloody well want.

I cannot imagine that this is the spirit of this or any other democratic constitution. For people with dictatorial leanings, of course, it would be a gold mine!

The mining rights were never granted in the first place, but will be cut soon regardless. Provided the judges have a similar view and value the principle higher than any alternative, such as any "honest mistakes" perhaps?

Either way they are under severe pressure to provide a very good reasoning for the sake of how it can continue from thereon.

[In Town]

" If the court steps across the boundary too much, do you think their decision will be respected? "

​This is a troubling leitmotiv, but it keeps cropping up again and again. Pheu Thai and the UDD in particular have adopted this as a common refrain. And it's truly dangerous. Never should any doubt in the judicial process be encouraged. And yet, every day we see evidence of it. It is to Pheu Thai and the UDD's advantage that people don't respect the verdict if they deem it " unfair " in some form or another. For Pheu Thai and the UDD, the law has always been malleable.

The only way forward constitutionally is to respect the ruling of the Constitutional Court.

The troubling leitmotif, throughout your posts is ignoring the will of the electorate in favour of a nondemocratic "solution". You may be a ( self proclaimed) expert on the Thai Constitution but you are no supporter of the democratic process prescribed by that constitution.Yet again, the constitutional way forward is to hold an election, and abide by the result. And all said in one paragraph!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It's just as troubling to ignore the law in favor of a "democratic" tyranny, especially amid claims of corrupt voting. tyranny in any form is undesirable. My stance is that a balance of both is crucial along with some mechanism to ensure trouble free campaigning and voting.

What's troubling is that it is your side that is corrupting the voting process. What is clear is that the judiciary will never allow a government elected by the majority to remain in office. friday it will be Yingluck, and in a few months it will be whoever follows her.Then elections will be held in select constituencies, but voters will be blocked in others. And the unelected Senate will hurry its work so that the fix can be in before the elected Senators are approved by the "neutral" election commission. Corruption is rampant. Just look around.

[fcbkk]

The government argument re the cabinet hangs on the fact that it has already vacated office en masse in accordance with Article 180 as a result of the dissolution of parliament and that Article 181 requires it to stay in as caretaker until the next government is formed. Thus the argument goes they cannot be made to vacate office en masse again on the PM's removal from office under another clause of Article 180.

There is certainly some legal merit to this argument and the court might concur with it and leave the rest of the cabinet in place, even if it removes YL. It also has some weaknesses though. The principal of hearings to remove politicians from office retroactively is well established and several have undergone impeachment votes after leaving office, including Suthep and Somchai. The government's argument also implies total impunity for caretaker governments, even though they are in office for at least 3 months when things are working normally. At any rate the argument for impunity for a caretaker government applies equally to a caretaker PM but the judges voted unanimously to hear the case against her.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

The notion of de facto blanket immunity for a caretaker PM implies the extremely dangerous possibility that all you have to do, is to dissolve parliament and then you can get away with anything you bloody well want.

I cannot imagine that this is the spirit of this or any other democratic constitution. For people with dictatorial leanings, of course, it would be a gold mine!

The mining rights were never granted in the first place, but will be cut soon regardless. Provided the judges have a similar view and value the principle higher than any alternative, such as any "honest mistakes" perhaps?

Either way they are under severe pressure to provide a very good reasoning for the sake of how it can continue from thereon.

[fab4]

Do you have a problem with the English language? You understand the basics, yes? Right, then please tell me why, when I write this,

"You don't have to go back that far, unless I'm mistaken and the RTA regiments involved in abhisits "crackdown" were populated by foreigners"

Why on earth would you think that I was referring to the red shirts?

and then you take it further alleging that foreign fighters were involved with the red shirts in 2010! Do you believe everything you read? If so, I can recommend cartalucci or yon or better still a comprehensive "true" story of what happened in 2010. it's English title is The Simple Truth, read it. you'll love it.

(though if he's heard of Oscar Wilde you may wonder why he chose that title)

I you were here well before and during the 2010 you will not have to read anything or be in command of perfect English.

Maybe you could have been reading what you wanted to believe. Sort of self inflicted brainwash.

Sorry, run that past me again in English.

If you were here when these past events took place and were impartial you would see both sides to the story, your English is more gobbledegook.

My last sentence sums your stance up. don't try to be clever, if you were you would see the wrong here, and who IS the cause, 1 man, convicted away for holiday ?? is he.

Believe me, I'm not trying to be clever.

So that's it, the cause 1 man, convicted - you must have read abhisits book as well. Don't you think there might be a tad more to it than 1 man, or is it really "the simple truth"?

[WoopyDoo]

The talk of civil war is laughable really....Thais don't want to kill each other, and they won't...save for a few dumb ass reds..!

And as mentioned in a previous post...it's hard enough to get 'em out of bed....let alone going out to shoot people!!

Correction.

Civil war is more likely than unlikely.

Thais are very hot tempered and hostile people when their cage is rattled. You can tell that by the way they all seem to go way over the top when reacting to something negative, and they prove on a daily basis that they are fully prepared to kill each other for the slightest thing here.

It is not difficult to stimulate a civil war with people like that, and Thalsin knows it, and never be under the illusion that he would not be prepared to instigate it to get his own way, and that means even if millions must die for HIS cause of wielding ultimate power in his own republic.

If there was ever a PDR Lanna.... It could only ever come out of a civil war.... So that would make it even more likely.

[In Town]

You are right, there were foreign fighters under the red shirts at that time

Do you have a problem with the English language? You understand the basics, yes? Right, then please tell me why, when I write this,

"You don't have to go back that far, unless I'm mistaken and the RTA regiments involved in abhisits "crackdown" were populated by foreigners"

Why on earth would you think that I was referring to the red shirts?

and then you take it further alleging that foreign fighters were involved with the red shirts in 2010! Do you believe everything you read? If so, I can recommend cartalucci or yon or better still a comprehensive "true" story of what happened in 2010. it's English title is The Simple Truth, read it. you'll love it.

(though if he's heard of Oscar Wilde you may wonder why he chose that title)

I you were here well before and during the 2010 you will not have to read anything or be in command of perfect English.

Maybe you could have been reading what you wanted to believe. Sort of self inflicted brainwash.

Sorry, run that past me again in English.

I was here for the burning of Bangkok. The devastation was terrible (reminded me of Mostar, or Berlin in '45). And the shoppers... Oh, the humanity.

Luckily, even though vast stretches of Bangkok are still desolate from "the Burning", Suthep & Co. have succeeded in bring back small business vendors and shopping, at least in Lumphini.

[fab4]

I you were here well before and during the 2010 you will not have to read anything or be in command of perfect English.

Maybe you could have been reading what you wanted to believe. Sort of self inflicted brainwash.

Sorry, run that past me again in English.

I think Ginjag was saying "if you were here and witnessed what was happening during the Red insurrection you wouldn't need to read what happened as it was all there to see,,,,, were you here during the burn Bangkok days Fab? or are you relying on media and propaganda to assert your biased views?

Thank you for the translation.

[In Town]

d cartalucci or yon or better still a comprehensive "true" story of what happened in 2010. it's English title is The Simple Truth, read it. you'll love it.

(though if he's heard of Oscar Wilde you may wonder why he chose that title)

I you were here well before and during the 2010 you will not have to read anything or be in command of perfect English.

Maybe you could have been reading what you wanted to believe. Sort of self inflicted brainwash.

Sorry, run that past me again in English.

I think Ginjag was saying "if you were here and witnessed what was happening during the Red insurrection you wouldn't need to read what happened as it was all there to see,,,,, were you here during the burn Bangkok days Fab? or are you relying on media and propaganda to assert your biased views?

I was here for the burning of Bangkok. The devastation was terrible (reminded me of Mostar, or Berlin in '45). And the shoppers... Oh, the humanity.

Luckily, even though vast stretches of Bangkok are still desolate from "the Burning", Suthep & Co. have succeeded in bring back small business vendors and shopping, at least in Lumphini.

[dinooz]

You are right, there were foreign fighters under the red shirts at that time

Do you have a problem with the English language? You understand the basics, yes? Right, then please tell me why, when I write this,

"You don't have to go back that far, unless I'm mistaken and the RTA regiments involved in abhisits "crackdown" were populated by foreigners"

Why on earth would you think that I was referring to the red shirts?

and then you take it further alleging that foreign fighters were involved with the red shirts in 2010! Do you believe everything you read? If so, I can recommend cartalucci or yon or better still a comprehensive "true" story of what happened in 2010. it's English title is The Simple Truth, read it. you'll love it.

(though if he's heard of Oscar Wilde you may wonder why he chose that title)

I you were here well before and during the 2010 you will not have to read anything or be in command of perfect English.

Maybe you could have been reading what you wanted to believe. Sort of self inflicted brainwash.

Sorry, run that past me again in English.

I was here for the burning of Bangkok. The devastation was terrible (reminded me of Mostar, or Berlin in '45). And the shoppers... Oh, the humanity.

Luckily, even though vast stretches of Bangkok are still desolate from "the Burning", Suthep & Co. have succeeded in bring back small business vendors and shopping, at least in Lumphini.

Don't be so bloody sarcastic,I lived in a small soi between the rally site and the escape route for the reds the tollway,our soi was trashed by the retreating reds, every ATM was destroyed, the 7/11 was trashed,looted and burnt, a grenade was thrown at a transformer that cut power for a week as the reds wouldn't allow crews to come and fix it,no garbage collection the soi was knee high in garbage,constant gunfire. Just because you didn't live nearby doesn't mean it didn't happen and that is why I have no respect for the redshirt movement, they had no right to destroy peoples livelehood.Maybe it will happen to where you live and you may see things differently.

[fab4]

See, spend a bit of time reading, instead of going for the knee jerk reaction post and it could save time and embarrassment.

I don't care what anyone else wrote, I want to hear you tell me why you think the RTA was full of foreigners. You're well known for never answering questions or being direct so I was curious to see if you'd answer this one. Again, you didn't.

Another question for you to add to the above, were you in Bangkok in 2010 during the riots?

If you don't care what anyone else writes in a thread how the heck do you think you're going to understand that thread?

Someone posts, I reply, they post back or maybe someone else does, I reply. That's how this forum works.

Also unlike you , I have mastered the edit function and all the posts were lined up in chronological sequence so that the logical sequence of post, reply, etc, can be followed. All you have to do is read the posts one after the other.

It's not rocket science.

[ginjag]

I you were here well before and during the 2010 you will not have to read anything or be in command of perfect English.

Maybe you could have been reading what you wanted to believe. Sort of self inflicted brainwash.

Sorry, run that past me again in English.

I think Ginjag was saying "if you were here and witnessed what was happening during the Red insurrection you wouldn't need to read what happened as it was all there to see,,,,, were you here during the burn Bangkok days Fab? or are you relying on media and propaganda to assert your biased views?

Thank you for the translation.

You knew all too well what I meant, see later post my friend.

[ginjag]

If you were here when these past events took place and were impartial you would see both sides to the story, your English is more gobbledegook.

My last sentence sums your stance up. don't try to be clever, if you were you would see the wrong here, and who IS the cause, 1 man, convicted away for holiday ?? is he.

Believe me, I'm not trying to be clever.

So that's it, the cause 1 man, convicted - you must have read abhisits book as well. Don't you think there might be a tad more to it than 1 man, or is it really "the simple truth"?

Straight away again it is Abhisits fault.???? The whole story of the Thailand I know for 33 years here is not brilliant by any means, ups and downs good government and bad--some have more corruption than others.

I was not that interested in what was going on for many years, enjoying my time here, living VERY rural areas. Then the first I recall that brought awareness was when Thaksin was in power and ORDERED the police to get rid of drug buyers-sellers- it is a well known fact that 2,500 died. He shut the mouths of the press/TV and became a control freak, power crazy. Abuse of power was his downfall--

Now as things are awaiting the Friday outcome is his sister is answering HIS crimes as the woman has been led and used by him, with a stranglehold backed up by the red brigade.

I am quite aware of other people not belonging to the PTP have to bear any consequences also.

To sum up the pathetic woman has not had the gall to tell her brother to keep stum, and now is taking his medicine.

For as much as I do not favour others too much, any decent transparent party would have my applause.

You need to chill you're just over reacting. Where do I say it was abhisits fault? Oh and that well known fact that 2,500 died in the "war on drugs" - it's crap. I've explained that so many times I give up - stick to your demonising.

I over react because of YOUR persistence and denial--completely sick of it, The war on drugs is not CRAP, denial again -is that all you know.

The action at that time was despicable, carried out by a nutter and his henchmen, a control freak that you defend, and as I say here yu are defending Yingluck for her following his orders. Hate is all that family knows if they do not have outright power.

[djjamie]

Oh, this one I got to hear ... just who were the foreign conscripts in the Royal Thai Army and how come no one noticed?

"populated by" -are you also implying the majority of them were not Thai?

Just try reading carefully and follow the thread of posts - the clue is in the phrase in ChrisY1's post

"Thais don't want to kill each other, and they won't...save for a few dumb ass reds."

Now read my post again.

See, spend a bit of time reading, instead of going for the knee jerk reaction post and it could save time and embarrassment.

If I may interject.

I think the confusion lies with Fab4's initial post.

If I may be so bold as to state what I think Fab4 is trying to portray;

He is suggesting RTA regiments involved in abhisits "crackdown" if populated by foreigners discredits the statement that Thai's do not kill other Thai's. Ergo the RTA regiments had no foreigners in them.

I enjoy your posts Fab4, but lets spend more time enjoying them rather that solving them.

[djjamie]

Oh, this one I got to hear ... just who were the foreign conscripts in the Royal Thai Army and how come no one noticed?

"populated by" -are you also implying the majority of them were not Thai?

Just try reading carefully and follow the thread of posts - the clue is in the phrase in ChrisY1's post

"Thais don't want to kill each other, and they won't...save for a few dumb ass reds."

Now read my post again.

See, spend a bit of time reading, instead of going for the knee jerk reaction post and it could save time and embarrassment.

If I may interject.

I think the confusion lies with Fab4's initial post.

If I may be so bold as to state what I think Fab4 is trying to portray;

He is suggesting RTA regiments involved in abhisits "crackdown" if populated by foreigners discredits the statement that Thai's do not kill other Thai's. Ergo the RTA regiments had no foreigners in them.

I enjoy your posts Fab4, but lets spend more time enjoying them rather that solving them.

So with all respect can I suggest you articulate your response better in the future Fab4? It will really save a lot of time in people trying to decipher you post and you having to explain what you meant.

"You don't have to go back that far, unless I'm mistaken and the RTA regiments involved in abhisits "crackdown" were populated by foreigners"

I would have said "You don't have to go back that far to prove that Thai's do in fact kill other Thai's, unless I'm mistaken? So unless you suggest the RTA regiments involved in the red shirt "crackdown" in 2010 perpetrated by Ahbisit was in fact populated by foreigners" then your claim that "thai's do not kill Thai's is false.

Please Fab4 give us all the information so we don't have to get clues from other posters comments.

[Arkady]

Although everyone, including her own supporters are assuming that the court will find YL guilty, the judges must give consideration to the argument that, while the Supreme Administrative Court ruled the dismissal of Thawil unlawful, the constitutional criteria are not the same in every respect. The court could find that there was no firm evidence that the transfer was done for personal gain, despite the circumstantial evidence that suggests it was done to make room for the promotion of her brother-in-law as police chief. Priewphan was qualified for the police chief job according to the strictly non meritorious seniority criteria embraced by RTP (and the military), due to his rapid promotion by Thaksin earlier, and there is no suggestion that the court has evidence he paid YL for his promotion.

[SanSaiExPat]

" If the court steps across the boundary too much, do you think their decision will be respected? "

​This is a troubling leitmotiv, but it keeps cropping up again and again. Pheu Thai and the UDD in particular have adopted this as a common refrain. And it's truly dangerous. Never should any doubt in the judicial process be encouraged. And yet, every day we see evidence of it. It is to Pheu Thai and the UDD's advantage that people don't respect the verdict if they deem it " unfair " in some form or another. For Pheu Thai and the UDD, the law has always been malleable.

The only way forward constitutionally is to respect the ruling of the Constitutional Court.

You don't pay respect to an institution that is morally corrupt and that has a history of bias in favor of your opposition just to keep the status quo.

[Butcherbird]

" If the court steps across the boundary too much, do you think their decision will be respected? "

​This is a troubling leitmotiv, but it keeps cropping up again and again. Pheu Thai and the UDD in particular have adopted this as a common refrain. And it's truly dangerous. Never should any doubt in the judicial process be encouraged. And yet, every day we see evidence of it. It is to Pheu Thai and the UDD's advantage that people don't respect the verdict if they deem it " unfair " in some form or another. For Pheu Thai and the UDD, the law has always been malleable.

The only way forward constitutionally is to respect the ruling of the Constitutional Court.

The troubling leitmotif, throughout your posts is ignoring the will of the electorate in favour of a nondemocratic "solution". You may be a ( self proclaimed) expert on the Thai Constitution but you are no supporter of the democratic process prescribed by that constitution.Yet again, the constitutional way forward is to hold an election, and abide by the result. And all said in one paragraph!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

What is the point in holding an election when the result is pre-determined by methods that don't allow the populace to vote unhindered from any form of pressure ? Elections in this country have been rigged for years....so the system is broken...and yet you advocate that this is the way forward ?

If you were faced with this scenario in your own western country you would be calling to have the whole system rewritten in order that the process of voting and determining who truly deserves to be in power is fair and transparent. But in this country you think this half-baked concept of democracy is acceptable ?

It seems obviously clear that no more elections should be held until all the rules regarding elections and how they are run have been rewritten upto an acceptable international standard and anyone who thinks that that is not a reasonable expectation for the people of this country to have as a bare minimum for their political system, has an agenda that is not for the equal benefit of all.