unbelival bies rules in Condo's inheratance

[ezzra]

A question was put recently to the Ask the lawyer section of TV,

Question to lawyer: Can a foreign widow keep the condo in her name should the her foreign husband dies?

Siam Firm lawyer reply: the condo will remain in foreign ownership if the widow is also a foreigner but she will need to sell it or bring in the money to buy it herself to keep the ownership of the condo.

meaning, the widow will have to bring fund fro overseas to buy the condo from herself

and pay the stamp duties in the tens or hundreds thousand of baht to the government..

If this is not a crazy system to disadvantage foreign people here in Thailand than I don't

know what it is....

[ripley]

Is this possible?? It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, although I have heard that there are problems in passing your condo on to your children. Now am inspired to research inheritance laws. Occurs to me that Pattaya Expats Club might have info on this.

[ripley]

I found this just now on Anglo Info:

Inheritance Law Information on inheritance law for resident foreigners and their families with assets in and outside of Thailand...

In general, all kinds of property, rights, duties and liabilities can be included in the inheritance.

Usually, the beneficiary is entitled to receive all property that they are bequeathed under the will. However, there are special rules that apply to foreigners owning land, so if a foreigner is bequeathed land the consent of the Interior Ministry must be obtained before they can claim it. This may be granted in certain cases, but if permission is refused, then the land must be sold within one year (and the cash can be transferred), or the land transferred to a Thai national.

In the case of a condominium, the ownership is transferable to a foreigner provided that the total number of condos owned by foreigners in that particular development does not exceed 49 percent. If it does then it must be sold within one year or transferred to a Thai national.

[Delight]

Stop Press.

It was I who asked the Q to the lawyer.

I am about to submit a follow Q -to clarify the points raised by the O.P.

[ggt]

The surprise comes...when some area of Thai culture favors a foreigner...I am still waiting to be surprised...

[Danbit]

Put both names on the deed. Problem is when/if it is sold you need both present or Proxy signed by the Thai Embassy in the home country.

[thejcb]

The surprise comes...when some area of Thai culture favors a foreigner...I am still waiting to be surprised...

Well how about this Mr.ggt ? (Mr. "always having to make comments in this website, ALWAYS")

What a condo complex is 49% of its foreigner capacity, guess what......, a foreign owner can sell to any nationality, but a Thai owner may only sell to a Thai.

Are you surprised now ?

Edited April 22, 2014 by thejcb

[dotpoom]

The OP states....."the widow will have to bring fund fro overseas to buy the condo from herself

and pay the stamp duties in the tens or hundreds thousand of baht to the government.."

I cannot see how it could possibly come to........ "Hundreds of thousands of Bath" to buy the condo from herself...same as buying it from any person ....50 or 60 thousand Baht would be the average I would have thought...........unless it was a hugely valuable property.

[falang07]

actually, a foreign owned condo can be sold for a higher price, sometimes quite higher... but then the buying price is often higher, too

[SOTIRIOS]

...don't you remember....a variation of 'What's yours is mine....and...what's mine is mine'......

Edited April 22, 2014 by SOTIRIOS

[KittenKong]

The OP states....."the widow will have to bring fund fro overseas to buy the condo from herself

and pay the stamp duties in the tens or hundreds thousand of baht to the government.."

I cannot see how it could possibly come to........ "Hundreds of thousands of Bath" to buy the condo from herself...same as buying it from any person ....50 or 60 thousand Baht would be the average I would have thought...........unless it was a hugely valuable property.

Have you bought/sold a condo recently?

You can pre-guess 5% of the sale price or more.

[Senechal]

I believe that the lawyer's response is correct. There are also rather incredible laws about bequeathing properties to foreign children here in Thailand. Typically, the requirement is that you re-sell the property within a year. In other words, you can inherit the VALUE of the property, but an ongoing, permanent claim to the property does not exist.

The broader problem is, that "ownership" for foreigners in Thailand is not really "ownership" as would be defined in other countries. As a foreigner you are essentially a lower class of owner, without many of the rights you would expect as an owner.

So yes, as the OP proclaimed: There ARE unbelievably biased laws regarding ownership of property by foreigners in Thailand. That's the way it's always been here. And if you think this bias is brutally unfair, don't even glance an eye at the legal / court system for business disputes. Welcome to Thailand. Before you make capital ventures of any sort here, recognize that you are absolutely not an equal player at the table. The system is designed to diminish your rights and sometimes even confiscate value from your assets legally.

T.I.T.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Senechal

[KittenKong]

Just out of curiosity, what happens when a Thai person dies and leaves their condo to some Thai wife or girlfriend or whoever? Does that person also have to do a full transfer procedure at the land office and pay tax/transfer fees as though it was a normal sale?

It they do then there isn't really much discrimination against foreigners, is there?

[Senechal]

Just out of curiosity, what happens when a Thai person dies and leaves their condo to some Thai wife or girlfriend or whoever? Does that person also have to do a full transfer procedure at the land office and pay tax/transfer fees as though it was a normal sale?

It they do then there isn't really much discrimination against foreigners, is there?

Well, for starters Thai inheritor would not be mandated to sell the property within a year.

[KittenKong]

Just out of curiosity, what happens when a Thai person dies and leaves their condo to some Thai wife or girlfriend or whoever? Does that person also have to do a full transfer procedure at the land office and pay tax/transfer fees as though it was a normal sale?

It they do then there isn't really much discrimination against foreigners, is there?

Well, for starters Thai inheritor would not be mandated to sell the property within a year.

That wasn't the question. Besides which there is no requirement I know of for a farang inheritor of a farang-name condo to sell it; they can just own it. Thais leaving property to farangs is a completely different kettle of fish also (and I'm betting it very rarely happens, unless the farang paid for it all in the first place). But that's neither here nor there.

I'm wondering about what actually happens when a Thai leaves a condo to a Thai, and how much is paid at the land office for the change of name on the chanote (if anything). I suspect that the rules for Thais are exactly the same as for farangs, but I may be wrong.

[Senechal]

That wasn't the question. Besides which there is no requirement I know of for a farang inheritor of a farang-name condo to sell it; they can just own it. Thais leaving property to farangs is a completely different kettle of fish also (and I'm betting it very rarely happens, unless the farang paid for it all in the first place). But that's neither here nor there.

I'm wondering about what actually happens when a Thai leaves a condo to a Thai, and how much is paid at the land office for the change of name on the chanote (if anything). I suspect that the rules for Thais are exactly the same as for farangs, but I may be wrong.

I hear what you're asking -- if you're specifically asking about the Transfer Tax, then yes, AFAIK Thais pay the same transfer tax that farangs do.

... but I was addressing your premise was that there "isn't really much discrimination against foreigners". Which is definitely not the case.

FYI There are indeed circumstances where farang inheritors must sell farang-name condos bequeathed to them. Inheritance in Thailand is a different ball of wax for farangs and Thais.

An alien or juristic person regarded by law as alien other than those specified in Section 19 who acquires an apartment by inheritance as statutory heir or legatee or otherwise, as such case may be, shall notify in writing the Competent Official within a period of sixty days from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment, and shall dispose of such apartment within a period of not exceeding one year from the date of acquisition of ownership of apartment. If disposition is not made within said period, the provisions of the fourth paragraph of Section 19 quinque shall apply mutatis mutandis.

Also:

​Section 19/5 (quinque) The alien or juristic person as provided in Section 19 shall dispose of apartment in the following cases: When the alien or juristic person stipulated in Section 19 have acquired apartments by legacy in the capacity of statutory heir or inheritor under will or by other means as the case may be, and when include the apartment already held by such aliens or juristic persons stipulated in Section 19 exceeding the ratio prescribed in the first paragraph of Section 19 bis or not being in accordance with the second paragraph or the third paragraph of Section 19 bis;

Do these rules apply to everyone? No. Not at all. But as I said above, you are not in anyway guaranteed ownership in perpetuity for all heirs and descendants. "Ownership" by foreigners in Thailand is not at all the same iron-clad legal status as it likely is back home (depending on where one happens to be from of course).

When it comes to inheritance by foreigners the Condominium Act is not foreign friendly and in general foreign heirs must dispose of the unit acquired by last will or succession laws within 1 year of the date of acquisition by inheritance. If the successor fails to dispose of the condo the Director-General of the Land Department is authorized to dispose of the condominium and retain a fee of 5% of the sale price before any deductions or taxes. [ Source: http://www.samuiforsale.com/real-estate/condo-inheritance.html ]

All the laws of foreign ownership in Thailand are designed with the capability of being unwound at a later date should the government choose to unwind them. When the Thai government created the Condominium Act it did so in an extremely cautious way that grants *limited* rights of ownership to foreigners, subject to later rulings and the legal status of any specific foreigner. Your right of ownership is 100% revokable along with your right of residence. It is a lower-caste of ownership without nearly the same legal rights and protections as most countries enjoy.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Senechal

[KittenKong]

I hear what you're asking -- if you're specifically asking about the Transfer Tax, then yes, AFAIK Thais pay the same transfer tax that farangs do.

... but I was addressing your premise was that there "isn't really much discrimination against foreigners". Which is definitely not the case.

I was referring to discrimination in relation to the taxes mentioned earlier in the thread and that question has been answered to my satisfaction.

Everyone knows that non-Thais are second or third class people in Thailand and if they don't know it they should. Everyone should also know that Thailand could turn round tomorrow and deport without explanation every single person who doesn't qualify for a Thai passport, regardless of their visa, work permit, or family or economic status. Unlikely but possible. Britain could do the same to all Thais, or all Americans (but not EU nationals) and again that is unlikely but possible.

This is one reason why I cant see myself buying more Thai property than I could live in, and would only buy property that is likely to appeal to Thai buyers if needed, and would mentally write off any money invested in any Thai property as an up-front and long-term rental payment. But maybe that's just me being cautious.

To return to the subject, I still dont see much more discrimination in relation to inheritance of property by one farang from another than I see in general farang ownership of property, and certainly none that applies to the average farang resident here.

[Delight]

I asked a follow up Q. on the 'Ask a Layer Forum:

This Q and the A is as follows.

QUESTION

In an earlier post you stated that if a foreigner inherits a condo-then this condo has to be purchased by the beneficiary of the Will.

I understand that funds (to a value set by the land office) have to be brought into Thailand. This transaction could then generate a FET (Foreign Exchange Transaction ) certificate.

Thus allowing the transfer of the condo to proceed.

The funds could then be repatriated , if required, immediately after the certificate was issued.(Even if this meant several $50,000 transactions –potentially one per day)

Is this correct?

ANSWER

The Answer to your question is Yes

[AnotherOneAmerican]

As far as I know Probate has no maximum time limit in Thailand.

Appoint your beneficiary as executor of the will.

Don't rush to transfer the property, ten years later, still no rush.

[Langsuan Man]

What is so unbelievable ?

Thai inheritance laws are written for the majority here, who are Thai, and are not tailored to foreigners

The Condominium Act is a law that provides an exception to the Thai law the prohibits foreigners from owning property and is tailored to foreigners

Why anyone would think that the two are compatible is beyond me !

[KittenKong]

"I understand that funds (to a value set by the land office) have to be brought into Thailand. This transaction could then generate a FET (Foreign Exchange Transaction ) certificate.

Thus allowing the transfer of the condo to proceed.

The funds could then be repatriated , if required, immediately after the certificate was issued.(Even if this meant several $50,000 transactions –potentially one per day)"

Farangs who have been in Thailand for a while may be aware that this procedure can be "facilitated" by helpful bank managers or equally helpful money changers, for a consideration.