We are degenerating just like Venice did in the 18th century: Thai opinion

[aTomsLife]

Author is comparing apples to art.

Growth of consumerism and its corresponding pitfalls has what exactly to do with the Age of Enlightenment and/or Napoleon's conquering of Venice's republic?

Greed, corruption and promiscuity are highlighted, but examples of such can be found in any society from any age. To use such as a means to compare Venice to Bangkok is specious. The two cities couldn't bemore different.

If Thais really want to understand themselves and what they've become, they should give greater scrutiny to the cultural mandates issued by Prime Minister Piboonsongkram, between 1939 and 1942. That is when Thailand Siam broke from its cultural roots, and ushered in the current age of fascism and xenophobia that prevents a true 'enlightenment' from occurring within society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_cultural_mandates

Edited May 1, 2014 by aTomsLife

[soalbundy]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

But they will be pissed off that Venice beat them to degeneration.

Thailand can't degenerate it was never noble enough for that. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, Thailand is the only country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without an interval of civilization. ( He was talking about America at the time )

[quicky]

it was refreshing to hear former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva

I stopped right there, anyone whom thinks it is refreshing to hear anything from a mass murder has lost the plot and desrves no further audience.

[geoman1976]

LOL!!! I think this person also gets their ideas of US morals and values from the movies...totally culturally unaware!!! I am from Virginia, where we still hold true to very conservative social values. Drugs and pre-marital sex are all frowned upon and we certainly do not have Pattaya, Nana, Soi Cowboy, oranything else that even comes close. The strife and degredation in Thailand comes from their own values ... no one elses. Soimething we hate in the US is not taking responsibility for yourself. Thailand DOES need to learn a few things from Americans. hard on my country but, after living in Europe for several years, Asia for several years, and South America for a shorter period, I can honestly say I have met very few cultures with as string of values as the US citizens. I wilkl even name them...the Balkan people are great people and usually very honorable and they are plagued with corrupt politicians just like the US. Canada typically has some great people too. Thailand has two extremes. Some of the best people I know come from Thailand but the worst people I have ever met come from here too. The fact is, the moral degredation comes from the allowance and practices of places like the red light districts and astronomical amount of international criminal organizations allowed to operate here and attract the dregs of society from all over the world. Do you think the Russian Mafia is so prolific in the US? NO WAY!!! Every country has organized crime but the US has done a great job in minimizing it after the Italian mafia boom of the early twnetieth century. THIS ARTICLE IS PISS POOR!

I am sick of the world using the US as it's scape goat for everything. I I used be hard on the American public but I have realized something. It is not the public that is the problem. It is the big corporate heads that spend billions annually to convince the people that what their companies and political puppets do is moral and correct. Don't blame the curlture for the actions of the government. But at least our government roots out corrupt police and we don't float by drowning teens and refuse to help them.

In economic hardship, people have to work together to survive, but you will see the true face of a society when it begins to have economic prosperity. And please do not ever compare the ecomonic successes of thailand to any super power, especially the US....that is just rediculous. If you want to point the finger at an economic cause, point it at the international energy conglomerates and banking cartels, many of which actually stem from Germany and other areas of central Europe, and the local peopel with the positions to allow them to take advantage of your people. Do you know how many Americans lost their jobs because they were outsourced to Southeast Asia? Do you really think that Americans support that? HELLLLLL NOOO!

Edited May 1, 2014 by geoman1976

[The Deerhunter]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

But they will be pissed off that Venice beat them to degeneration.

Ah! Only second in degeneration. But with lack of canal maintenance they may be first in City sinking. Sorry. It is not good to be cynical but most of the news is a bit depressing lately.

[Valentine]

it was refreshing to hear former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva

I stopped right there, anyone whom thinks it is refreshing to hear anything from a mass murder has lost the plot and desrves no further audience.

That makes you judge & jury then as the trial has not gone to court. The same as many think Mr T (who has also not gone to court & therefore innocent until proven guilty) is a mass murderer for his role in the war on drugs where 2,500 people were killed without any benefit of trial & some were proven beyond doubt not to be involved in drugs at all (the police had drop boxes all over the country where anyone could name another as being a drug dealer).

[geoman1976]

Chalk this one up to political rhetoric...supporting the red star

[Lupatria]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

To get a slightly better result, ask them which countries have direct borders with LOS, or ask to show their own country on a world map.

This, I once asked my GF 2 things. The first was which country is bigger in size, Thailand or the US? Did not know and thus didn't answer. 2nd question, who as more power within the workings of the political world, before her brain exploded she of course said you know who, the dude that cannot be named. When I said the president of the US did she actually knew his name to my surprise.

Where did you find a Thai GF that grew up in Boston?

[tomhell]

Wrong headline We are degenerating just like Venice

More correct: We are degenerating just like the USA

A society just based on: greed,corruption and profit is inhuman.

Thailand needs a new progressive/labour/environment party. The so called "democrats" are no solution for a new way in Thai politics.

Tom

[DrTuner]

To degenerate you have to have generated something first. Copying doesn't count.

[winstonc]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

yes they do its a planet surely...everyone knows that oaky..

[Balance]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

Lowering the bar a bit, how about Italy ?

[american12bthai]

well, im glad to see someone pulling out their history cards. but if you want to see something funny, read Dragon Syndicate(its about the last chinese dynasty and triads), on page 123 i think(it was the beginning of a new chapter, i let a friend borrow the book so someone believes me.) it reads like a this years news papaer headlines. what is happening right now... with thaksin the government, the reds shirts. ..EVERYTHING.. ... they even kill one of their own leaders to incite riots which burnt down parts of their cities. i only wish all the bad guys were beheaded like in the book. awe . it was freaky and weird. YES, history will repeat. all evil men use the same color.

[3NUMBAS]

more like the period of the French revolution when the aristocracy thought the peasants were scum and would liked them to starve ,off with their heads .

[bigbamboo]

The only things Thailand has in common with Venice back then is lousy water management and smelly canals.

Edited May 1, 2014 by bigbamboo

[rjcampbe]

LOL!!! I think this person also gets their ideas of US morals and values from the movies...totally culturally unaware!!! I am from Virginia, where we still hold true to very conservative social values. Drugs and pre-marital sex are all frowned upon and we certainly do not have Pattaya, Nana, Soi Cowboy, oranything else that even comes close. The strife and degredation in Thailand comes from their own values ... no one elses. Soimething we hate in the US is not taking responsibility for yourself. Thailand DOES need to learn a few things from Americans. hard on my country but, after living in Europe for several years, Asia for several years, and South America for a shorter period, I can honestly say I have met very few cultures with as string of values as the US citizens. I wilkl even name them...the Balkan people are great people and usually very honorable and they are plagued with corrupt politicians just like the US. Canada typically has some great people too. Thailand has two extremes. Some of the best people I know come from Thailand but the worst people I have ever met come from here too. The fact is, the moral degredation comes from the allowance and practices of places like the red light districts and astronomical amount of international criminal organizations allowed to operate here and attract the dregs of society from all over the world. Do you think the Russian Mafia is so prolific in the US? NO WAY!!! Every country has organized crime but the US has done a great job in minimizing it after the Italian mafia boom of the early twnetieth century. THIS ARTICLE IS PISS POOR!

I am sick of the world using the US as it's scape goat for everything. I I used be hard on the American public but I have realized something. It is not the public that is the problem. It is the big corporate heads that spend billions annually to convince the people that what their companies and political puppets do is moral and correct. Don't blame the curlture for the actions of the government. But at least our government roots out corrupt police and we don't float by drowning teens and refuse to help them.

In economic hardship, people have to work together to survive, but you will see the true face of a society when it begins to have economic prosperity. And please do not ever compare the ecomonic successes of thailand to any super power, especially the US....that is just rediculous. If you want to point the finger at an economic cause, point it at the international energy conglomerates and banking cartels, many of which actually stem from Germany and other areas of central Europe, and the local peopel with the positions to allow them to take advantage of your people. Do you know how many Americans lost their jobs because they were outsourced to Southeast Asia? Do you really think that Americans support that? HELLLLLL NOOO!

At the risk of wandering off topic, I think you are missing some vital bits in your comments...

You think Americans don't support outsourcing and big corporations? Ask them to pay more for the crap they buy at Walmart that was made overseas... Ask them to pay higher prices on goods and services so they don't have to call tech support in India.

Good luck with that.

[Thaiisnotrequired]

I doubt if 99% of the population even knows where Venice is.

But they will be pissed off that Venice beat them to degeneration.

However, Venice did find ways to overcome its sinking problem and remain above water, using farang developments of course.

[Thaiisnotrequired]

LOL!!! I think this person also gets their ideas of US morals and values from the movies...totally culturally unaware!!! I am from Virginia, where we still hold true to very conservative social values. Drugs and pre-marital sex are all frowned upon and we certainly do not have Pattaya, Nana, Soi Cowboy, oranything else that even comes close.

Yeah right, and your dad's not a Johova's Witness too!

But you would support interacial sex with a little 10 year old negro girl, surely? That's ok in Virginia?

You could, if you are so inclined, google 'titty bars in virginia usa', and may get a shock about what you wrote about: quote, "I am from Virginia, where we still hold true to very conservative social values. Drugs and pre-marital sex are all frowned upon and we certainly do not have Pattaya, Nana, Soi Cowboy, oranything else that even comes close."

Sorry, but yep you do buddy... all there in your own vicinity...

Edited May 1, 2014 by Thaiisnotrequired

[aTomsLife]

LOL!!! I think this person also gets their ideas of US morals and values from the movies...totally culturally unaware!!! I am from Virginia, where we still hold true to very conservative social values. Drugs and pre-marital sex are all frowned upon and we certainly do not have Pattaya, Nana, Soi Cowboy, oranything else that even comes close. The strife and degredation in Thailand comes from their own values ... no one elses. Soimething we hate in the US is not taking responsibility for yourself. Thailand DOES need to learn a few things from Americans. hard on my country but, after living in Europe for several years, Asia for several years, and South America for a shorter period, I can honestly say I have met very few cultures with as string of values as the US citizens. I wilkl even name them...the Balkan people are great people and usually very honorable and they are plagued with corrupt politicians just like the US. Canada typically has some great people too. Thailand has two extremes. Some of the best people I know come from Thailand but the worst people I have ever met come from here too. The fact is, the moral degredation comes from the allowance and practices of places like the red light districts and astronomical amount of international criminal organizations allowed to operate here and attract the dregs of society from all over the world. Do you think the Russian Mafia is so prolific in the US? NO WAY!!! Every country has organized crime but the US has done a great job in minimizing it after the Italian mafia boom of the early twnetieth century. THIS ARTICLE IS PISS POOR!

I am sick of the world using the US as it's scape goat for everything. I I used be hard on the American public but I have realized something. It is not the public that is the problem. It is the big corporate heads that spend billions annually to convince the people that what their companies and political puppets do is moral and correct. Don't blame the curlture for the actions of the government. But at least our government roots out corrupt police and we don't float by drowning teens and refuse to help them.

In economic hardship, people have to work together to survive, but you will see the true face of a society when it begins to have economic prosperity. And please do not ever compare the ecomonic successes of thailand to any super power, especially the US....that is just rediculous. If you want to point the finger at an economic cause, point it at the international energy conglomerates and banking cartels, many of which actually stem from Germany and other areas of central Europe, and the local peopel with the positions to allow them to take advantage of your people. Do you know how many Americans lost their jobs because they were outsourced to Southeast Asia? Do you really think that Americans support that? HELLLLLL NOOO!

At the risk of wandering off topic, I think you are missing some vital bits in your comments...

You think Americans don't support outsourcing and big corporations? Ask them to pay more for the crap they buy at Walmart that was made overseas... Ask them to pay higher prices on goods and services so they don't have to call tech support in India.

Good luck with that.

No, the average, formerly middle-class American does not support outsourcing. The problem is that we're stuck in a self perpetuating "free trade" cycle.

As we've seen the last twenty years, real wages in developed countries have been depressed, because workers there must now compete in a global economy. This competition is really only a race to the bottom, because people from less developed nations are able to work for a small fraction in pay.

The result being that most people can only now afford crap from Walmart. Whereas fifty years ago, American companies paid Americans living wages that created the wealthiest middle class the world has ever seen.

This fall from grace is of course all driven by greed and a lack of patriotism. Corporations continue to achieve record profits because they don't have to pay living wages anymore.

End free trade agreements like NAFTA, and the American economy would come roaring back. Make it unprofitable to outsource -- e.g., create sin taxes for skirting environmental and labor laws -- and you'll also see the economy roar back.

Right now corporations have the best of both worlds. Labor costs are down, while selling "cheap" crap that needs to be replaced every year. But buy cheap crap we must because we can't afford quality anymore. And we can't afford quality because our wages are low. And our wages are low because of outsourcing. And on and on it goes.

[lomatopo]

Thailand has entered an Age of Decadence.

As Ms. Kanchanalak is both an expert on decadence and degeneration, she is well qualified to pontificate.

She is a convicted felon in the United States: corruption associated with campaign contributions, and general sucking up to President Clinton.

Edited May 1, 2014 by lomatopo

[ggt]

decency, honour and dignity have given way to deceit, self-interest and exploitation.

I am happy to report...this was not written by some old disgruntled ex-pat...although many ex-pats...who do not wear rose colored glasses...have known this for years...

Uber-capitalist United States, which professes its trust in God on its banknotes - is the decay of our moral backbone.

If you had a backbone...you would take responsibility for your greed...corruption...and lack of moral fiber...IMO...

Edited May 1, 2014 by ggt

[Thaiisnotrequired]

LOL!!! I think this person also gets their ideas of US morals and values from the movies...totally culturally unaware!!! I am from Virginia, where we still hold true to very conservative social values. Drugs and pre-marital sex are all frowned upon and we certainly do not have Pattaya, Nana, Soi Cowboy, oranything else that even comes close. The strife and degredation in Thailand comes from their own values ... no one elses. Soimething we hate in the US is not taking responsibility for yourself. Thailand DOES need to learn a few things from Americans. hard on my country but, after living in Europe for several years, Asia for several years, and South America for a shorter period, I can honestly say I have met very few cultures with as string of values as the US citizens. I wilkl even name them...the Balkan people are great people and usually very honorable and they are plagued with corrupt politicians just like the US. Canada typically has some great people too. Thailand has two extremes. Some of the best people I know come from Thailand but the worst people I have ever met come from here too. The fact is, the moral degredation comes from the allowance and practices of places like the red light districts and astronomical amount of international criminal organizations allowed to operate here and attract the dregs of society from all over the world. Do you think the Russian Mafia is so prolific in the US? NO WAY!!! Every country has organized crime but the US has done a great job in minimizing it after the Italian mafia boom of the early twnetieth century. THIS ARTICLE IS PISS POOR!

I am sick of the world using the US as it's scape goat for everything. I I used be hard on the American public but I have realized something. It is not the public that is the problem. It is the big corporate heads that spend billions annually to convince the people that what their companies and political puppets do is moral and correct. Don't blame the curlture for the actions of the government. But at least our government roots out corrupt police and we don't float by drowning teens and refuse to help them.

In economic hardship, people have to work together to survive, but you will see the true face of a society when it begins to have economic prosperity. And please do not ever compare the ecomonic successes of thailand to any super power, especially the US....that is just rediculous. If you want to point the finger at an economic cause, point it at the international energy conglomerates and banking cartels, many of which actually stem from Germany and other areas of central Europe, and the local peopel with the positions to allow them to take advantage of your people. Do you know how many Americans lost their jobs because they were outsourced to Southeast Asia? Do you really think that Americans support that? HELLLLLL NOOO!

At the risk of wandering off topic, I think you are missing some vital bits in your comments...

You think Americans don't support outsourcing and big corporations? Ask them to pay more for the crap they buy at Walmart that was made overseas... Ask them to pay higher prices on goods and services so they don't have to call tech support in India.

Good luck with that.

No, the average, formerly middle-class American does not support outsourcing. The problem is that we're stuck in a self perpetuating "free trade" cycle.

As we've seen the last twenty years, real wages in developed countries have been depressed, because workers there must now compete in a global economy. This competition is really only a race to the bottom, because people from less developed nations are able to work for a small fraction in pay.

The result being that most people can only now afford crap from Walmart. Whereas fifty years ago, American companies paid Americans living wages that created the wealthiest middle class the world has ever seen.

This fall from grace is of course all driven by greed and a lack of patriotism. Corporations continue to achieve record profits because they don't have to pay living wages anymore.

End free trade agreements like NAFTA, and the American economy would come roaring back. Make it unprofitable to outsource -- e.g., create sin taxes for skirting environmental and labor laws -- and you'll also see the economy roar back.

Right now corporations have the best of both worlds. Labor costs are down, while selling "cheap" crap that needs to be replaced every year. But buy cheap crap we must because we can't afford quality anymore. And we can't afford quality because our wages are low. And our wages are low because of outsourcing. And on and on it goes.

I agree with a large deal of what you write, but: attitude, and learned attitudes, count for so much when it comes to respecting other cultures, and at least trying to understand them. You yourself still refer to 'we', pertaining to an almost make believe palace. That in itself is a rudimentary divide, placarding levels of expected living, is it not? Individualistic and collectivisic cultures need more accounting for, to truly understand the divides which still exist, I would liken to add.

[Thai at Heart]

Sounds awfully exotic and understanable when u say Venice. Reality is, Thailand is degenerating like the corruptest, example of corruptiliy corruptness in corruptland. Forget comparing it with other places and tell it how it is.

[Thaiisnotrequired]

Sounds awfully exotic and understanable when u say Venice. Reality is, Thailand is degenerating like the corruptest, example of corruptiliy corruptness in corruptland. Forget comparing it with other places and tell it how it is.

So no hub of corruption then?

[aTomsLife]

...

No, the average, formerly middle-class American does not support outsourcing. The problem is that we're stuck in a self perpetuating "free trade" cycle.

As we've seen the last twenty years, real wages in developed countries have been depressed, because workers there must now compete in a global economy. This competition is really only a race to the bottom, because people from less developed nations are able to work for a small fraction in pay.

The result being that most people can only now afford crap from Walmart. Whereas fifty years ago, American companies paid Americans living wages that created the wealthiest middle class the world has ever seen.

This fall from grace is of course all driven by greed and a lack of patriotism. Corporations continue to achieve record profits because they don't have to pay living wages anymore.

End free trade agreements like NAFTA, and the American economy would come roaring back. Make it unprofitable to outsource -- e.g., create sin taxes for skirting environmental and labor laws -- and you'll also see the economy roar back.

Right now corporations have the best of both worlds. Labor costs are down, while selling "cheap" crap that needs to be replaced every year. But buy cheap crap we must because we can't afford quality anymore. And we can't afford quality because our wages are low. And our wages are low because of outsourcing. And on and on it goes.

I agree with a large deal of what you write, but: attitude, and learned attitudes, count for so much when it comes to respecting other cultures, and at least trying to understand them. You yourself still refer to 'we', pertaining to an almost make believe palace. That in itself is a rudimentary divide, placarding levels of expected living, is it not? Individualistic and collectivisic cultures need more accounting for, to truly understand the divides which still exist, I would liken to add.

Now even the word "we" isn't PC, huh? Just kidding... well, kind of.

I don't see where you made the connection to what amounted to my lack of respect for other cultures. I was simply responding to a poster who said the average American supports outsourcing whether they're aware of it or not. My belief is that it was an inaccurate statement, for reasons already explained.

The "we" I referred to meant my fellow Americans. There is nothing "make believe" about us. Our way of life has been all but destroyed by corporate interests, whereby our politicians are rendered puppets instead of representing the people who voted them into office.

Has representative government become such an unconscionable expectation?

Frankly, I don't follow you at all. These days many don't seem care about America's downward trajectory, and there are even some cheering it on. Yet I'm the one who needs to respect other cultures?

[manstr23]

it was refreshing to hear former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva

I stopped right there, anyone whom thinks it is refreshing to hear anything from a mass murder has lost the plot and desrves no further audience.

I did not realize that Abhisit was convicted already! But if he will be (I think not), perhaps he can share a cell with the criminal coward that ran away to the desert, who, should he ever come back, will have enough prison time added to his present conviction to match Abhisit's. Because if Abhisit is guilty of murder, TS surly is.

[HooHaa]

listen to you lot, you complain that thais cant look beyond their own borders and when one does by way of METAPHOR, you claim he is overstepping the mark.

As another poster remarked:

I think the OP is comparing the degeneration of society in general rather than the actual cultures.

How stupid, obtuse or radically biased do you need to be not to understand that?

[aTomsLife]

listen to you lot, you complain that thais cant look beyond their own borders and when one does by way of METAPHOR, you claim he is overstepping the mark.

As another poster remarked:

I think the OP is comparing the degeneration of society in general rather than the actual cultures.

How stupid, obtuse or radically biased do you need to be not to understand that?

No one disagreed with his premise; it's just that his supporting arguments were specious. How stupid, obtuse or radically biased are you not to understand that?

[lomatopo]

decency, honour and dignity have given way to deceit, self-interest and exploitation.

I am happy to report...this was not written by some old disgruntled ex-pat...although many ex-pats...who do not wear rose colored glasses...have known this for years...

Uber-capitalist United States, which professes its trust in God on its banknotes - is the decay of our moral backbone.

If you had a backbone...you would take responsibility for your greed...corruption...and lack of moral fiber...IMO...

It should be noted that the author of the missive in the OP, Pauline Kanchanalak, is a graduate of Stanford University and spent many, many years living in the United States. She is also a convicted felon in the United States. Believe me, she is an expert on CORRUPTION. And she clearly has no shame.

She probably wishes she could return for a reunion, but can't see her getting a visa.

[Mentors]

Thanks God this guy don't have a passport from a mainland European country.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Mentors