Kawasaki z800 non ABS thoughts

[wowjudo]

Hello guys

Just wanted to ask around what you guys think of the z800.

I think its a nice bike but the non-ABS feature only scares me abit off since i never drove a non-ABS big bike. The roads in thailand are very sandy... especially in Chiang Rai.

Would be nice to hear some reviews of the bike and maybe some scary situations with the braking process. I wish i could learn somewhere a proper breaking technique for non-ABS bikes.

[ATF]

ABS isn't going to help you with sand. The only way to get out of a sand slide is to accelerate smoothly but aggressively or fit traction control. ABS stops both wheels locking up when braking hard and helps prevent you going into an uncontrolled slide especially in the wet. The last thing you want to do is brake on sand. ABS is useful especially when emergency braking at very high speed. There is a comparison here in another thread between the Ducati 796 ABS and the Kawa Z800. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/720687-what-is-required-to-take-the-bike-out-of-the-country-other-random-questions/#entry7749939 Just scroll down a bit.

[wowjudo]

ok thanks ATF.

so the z800 is not for the basic rider that always has ridden big bikes with ABS ? was thinking of the cbr650f aswell but the waiting time is so long :X 5 month +

[RubberSideDown]

I rode 1000+cc bikes for many years before I got one with ABS and I managed to survive, but I learned to get them to stop pretty darn well through practice- I use those same braking skills today even with an ABS-equipped motorcycle (and, except to test the system, I have yet to have it come on even during hard braking).

Did you find yourself relying on ABS with your other bikes, or did you rarely (if ever) need it?

[wowjudo]

could you let me know your brake technique with non abs bikes?

well i used to ride a 650 ninja and the only time abs got in the game was, when i rode with 20 km/h in a soi and suddenly a dog jumped out of nowhere. I had a shock moment and made a hard brake from my reflex i guess.

and the other time was when i was riding a versys 650 with a passenger. dear lord does the brake sucks at this bike, even with abs.

for the z800. i did test ride it at kawasaki rama9 branch but they dont really have a test circuit like honda does. so i couldnt really feel the bike.

just wondering how to properly brake with a non abs bike in emergency situation. i was thinking of:

1. engine break

2. slam the rear brake

3. apply pressure on front brake but trying not to lock it

[wowjudo]

just found this on youtube

[RubberSideDown]

It's not so much 'technique' as it is practice- I pick a stopping point and brake from a given speed a number of times in an effort to both decrease my braking distance and get a feel for the point where the brakes lock up, and then try it at other speeds- I do this with any new bike (ABS or not)- this is a pretty basic drill.

Basically there's only been two times (on different bikes) you can recall actually needing ABS, so you must have decent braking skills at this point if you've been riding a while. I don't deny that every little safety edge helps, but with training you can brake as well (or possibly better, depending on the sophistication of the system) without ABS as you can with it- those low-speed panic-stops are what usually gets you as far as lock-up is concerned, but you can easily work on that.

[wowjudo]

if i really order the z800 ill consider to take some non-abs riding course @ bira circuit in pattaya.

maybe ill save abit and get z1000 which has abs + traction control. i think thats a better match for me.

the z800 is has just a mesmerizing price for this kind of performance. never understood why they sell an ABS version of it. it would sell much better imo.

well thanks again RubberSideDown. helpful as always

[brfsa2]

the ABS on my CB500 activates very early.

it even activates on the rear when I downshift to 1st gear if im above 40Km/h, lol.

One time I hard to brake really hard and the ABS was working out so intensively. but I felt It reduces the braking distance when the ABS is on.

if you are learning, you should get an ABS bike. it might save you one day on the raining season.

you should wait for the CB650F if you can. it's got some "decent" brakes, unlike the cb500 which is a joke brakes

Edited May 4, 2014 by brfsa2

[DILLIGAD]

Wonder if the 2015 Z800 will have ABS like the rest of the world?????

[BSJ]

I read somewhere that BMW had perfected ABS on a 2 wheeler....and all the others were still trying to catch-up!

[aussiebrian]

It scares me to think of you riding around on a motorcycle especially on a big bike without knowing how to use your brakes without ABS. I would suspect you are not using them correctly with ABS, I would also suspect you need to learn some other skills. I have ridden a few bikes with ABS but never owned one, and I have been riding everyday for over 45 years.

When on a good dry road, use about 80% with the front brake and 20% with the rear.

On a wet road about 50/50

On dirt, gravel or sand about 10% or 20% with the front and the rest with the rear. Try and be upright when you brake, especially on a loose surface.

Be smooth, and squeeze the brakes don't panic and slam them on.

Under normal circumstances use your brakes in conjunction with your gears, giving a small rev just before shifting down, but in an emergency situation, forget the gears, concentrate on your brakes.

If a dog does suddenly jump out in front of you, brake by all means, always checking your rear view mirror before braking, but don't panic. Many people drop their bikes before they hit the dog (or car) because they jump on the brakes too hard and lock up the front brake. Others hit the dog with the brakes still applied, that is when the bike will come down. If you are going to hit the dog, it is better for both you and the dog not to be braking when you hit it, but to accelerate just before you hit it. That will make the front lighter so it can go over the dog. If you are braking hard when you hit the dog (or other animal or object on the road) you WILL lock your front wheel and go down.

Practice braking in a car park in a controlled situation. If you do drop it, it will be much better than on the road with cars around. Practice going through witches hats and straightening the bike up and stopping. Get a friend to suddenly raise their hand at any time for you to stop. Watch twist of the wrist 2 video by Keith Code, which explains all riding techniques including braking. You can find it on youtube, There is also a pdf file you will find with a google search too that you can download..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr-Wqs37Ug4

Good luck,keep the shiny side up

Edited May 4, 2014 by aussiebrian

[ATF]

ok thanks ATF.

so the z800 is not for the basic rider that always has ridden big bikes with ABS ? was thinking of the cbr650f aswell but the waiting time is so long :X 5 month +

There are no such bikes as basic rider bikes even a scooter can kill you with or without ABS. In selecting a bike you should be considering what you are going to use it for? Hooligan riding around town. Long highway trips. Ferrying your wife around/shopping. Track riding. Also will it be your only means of transport? The perfect recreational bike would be as light as possible, as much BHP as you find suited for your needs and most powerful brakes possible. I would take ABS over a non ABS because I could switch it off if I wanted to, because certain things you can't do with the ABS on.

A few things concern me about the Z800. It's the same weight as the Z1000 222kgs plus which is very heavy for this class of bike, it only has a single pot rear brake and the front discs should be bigger.

Secondly I think you should try out different bikes and feel more confident before you make a decision. V Twin or Inline engine? Air or Water cooled? The way a bike handles and feels is more important than anything else. When you find the right bike it'll feel like putting on a custom suit. Remember acceleration and stopping distance are more important than max power for everyday fun.

[JonnyF]

ABS isn't going to help you with sand. The only way to get out of a sand slide is to accelerate smoothly but aggressively or fit traction control. ABS stops both wheels locking up when braking hard and helps prevent you going into an uncontrolled slide especially in the wet. The last thing you want to do is brake on sand. ABS is useful especially when emergency braking at very high speed. There is a comparison here in another thread between the Ducati 796 ABS and the Kawa Z800. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/720687-what-is-required-to-take-the-bike-out-of-the-country-other-random-questions/#entry7749939 Just scroll down a bit.

ABS would certainly help an inexperienced rider trying to stop on a loose, wet or sandy surface. Accelerating smoothly or traction control won't do much if he needs to stop in x number of metres due to something pulling out in front of him with no way to pass left or right. He's trying to reduce speed, not increase it (smoothly or otherwise).

I think the Z800 will have ABS next year, very surprising it doesn't have it now when cheaper models like the er6n have it.

[ATF]

ABS isn't going to help you with sand. The only way to get out of a sand slide is to accelerate smoothly but aggressively or fit traction control. ABS stops both wheels locking up when braking hard and helps prevent you going into an uncontrolled slide especially in the wet. The last thing you want to do is brake on sand. ABS is useful especially when emergency braking at very high speed. There is a comparison here in another thread between the Ducati 796 ABS and the Kawa Z800. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/720687-what-is-required-to-take-the-bike-out-of-the-country-other-random-questions/#entry7749939 Just scroll down a bit.

ABS would certainly help an inexperienced rider trying to stop on a loose, wet or sandy surface. Accelerating smoothly or traction control won't do much if he needs to stop in x number of metres due to something pulling out in front of him with no way to pass left or right. He's trying to reduce speed, not increase it (smoothly or otherwise).

I think the Z800 will have ABS next year, very surprising it doesn't have it now when cheaper models like the er6n have it.

The Z800 is available in the UK with ABS. If someone pulls out infront of you and you are on a slippery surface ABS or not difficult to predict the outcome. I was referring to rear wheel snaking or sliding on sand especially on cornering. ABS is not going to help a tail snake. I prefer bikes with ABS but many people put too much confidence in it. There is no substitute for learning to avoid rather than brake. I certainly would recommend ABS but understand it's limitations.

[ll2]

Mastering braking without abs takes some time. You need a lot of riding experience but you can shorten that time by getting some lessons and practicing in ways which people stated in the posts above.

I learned riding with non abs bikes thanks god and my first abs bike that I owned was Honda cbr500r. Abs was very conservative on cbr500 but for commuting and city rides under rain over wet plates, it gives a lot of comfort and confidence. Now cannot live without abs but prefer a bike that can deactivate it with a switch if needed.

But one bad thing about abs is, like in your case, if you start riding with the assurance of an abs system, it means you don't know the real braking mastery and it might be dangerous. Of course it does not mean you cannot ride one but take it easy for sometime.

You can rent a z800 and can check yourself and if you don't feel confident, line up for a Cbr650f.

I have abs on my Honda cbr650f and they very rarely come alive. Abs system on cbr650 is really sportive.

But I never trust abs - actually you can trust it more than your hands! - and always brake like I am using a non abs bike.

Regarding braking on sand, most important rule is trying not putting yourself in a situation of braking on sand. If there is no other way, apply the brakes smoothly, slowly to harder and if you are riding a proper bike, you get feedback from front end that informs you about the limits most of the time - but not always mysteriously!

[wowjudo]

Mastering braking without abs takes some time. You need a lot of riding experience but you can shorten that time by getting some lessons and practicing in ways which people stated in the posts above.

I learned riding with non abs bikes thanks god and my first abs bike that I owned was Honda cbr500r. Abs was very conservative on cbr500 but for commuting and city rides under rain over wet plates, it gives a lot of comfort and confidence. Now cannot live without abs but prefer a bike that can deactivate it with a switch if needed.

But one bad thing about abs is, like in your case, if you start riding with the assurance of an abs system, it means you don't know the real braking mastery and it might be dangerous. Of course it does not mean you cannot ride one but take it easy for sometime.

You can rent a z800 and can check yourself and if you don't feel confident, line up for a Cbr650f.

I have abs on my Honda cbr650f and they very rarely come alive. Abs system on cbr650 is really sportive.

But I never trust abs - actually you can trust it more than your hands! - and always brake like I am using a non abs bike.

Regarding braking on sand, most important rule is trying not putting yourself in a situation of braking on sand. If there is no other way, apply the brakes smoothly, slowly to harder and if you are riding a proper bike, you get feedback from front end that informs you about the limits most of the time - but not always mysteriously!

yes the cbr650f is nice! i did test rode it at the honda safety driving center.

just wondering, how long did it took to receive the bike? do the ones that pay cash have more advantage in delivery que than those that go with finance payment?

[ll2]

Mastering braking without abs takes some time. You need a lot of riding experience but you can shorten that time by getting some lessons and practicing in ways which people stated in the posts above.

I learned riding with non abs bikes thanks god and my first abs bike that I owned was Honda cbr500r. Abs was very conservative on cbr500 but for commuting and city rides under rain over wet plates, it gives a lot of comfort and confidence. Now cannot live without abs but prefer a bike that can deactivate it with a switch if needed.

But one bad thing about abs is, like in your case, if you start riding with the assurance of an abs system, it means you don't know the real braking mastery and it might be dangerous. Of course it does not mean you cannot ride one but take it easy for sometime.

You can rent a z800 and can check yourself and if you don't feel confident, line up for a Cbr650f.

I have abs on my Honda cbr650f and they very rarely come alive. Abs system on cbr650 is really sportive.

But I never trust abs - actually you can trust it more than your hands! - and always brake like I am using a non abs bike.

Regarding braking on sand, most important rule is trying not putting yourself in a situation of braking on sand. If there is no other way, apply the brakes smoothly, slowly to harder and if you are riding a proper bike, you get feedback from front end that informs you about the limits most of the time - but not always mysteriously!

yes the cbr650f is nice! i did test rode it at the honda safety driving center.

just wondering, how long did it took to receive the bike? do the ones that pay cash have more advantage in delivery que than those that go with finance payment?

I reserved my bike with deposit on 29th of November. The first day of booking for the bike and got one of the first red one hot from the production line mid March. You can try to get your bike from another honda bigwing branch.

Buying the bike with cash will not be moving you up on the waiting list.

Overall, good bike this honda cbr650f. Totally recommend it.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Beardog]

I checked out the 800 & thought it was kind of a joke 11 kilo's more weight than the 1000. The 1000 has a aluminum frame & the 800 is steel swingarm not as good as the 1000 either. I have a 650 ER6n & liter + bikes in the states. For the extra the 1000 is way more bang for the buck. For me I have zero interest in the 800 series till they buck up & offer the same materials in the frame & the swinarm system used. $ for $ the 800 is not that great of a deal & when I upgrade it will be the 1000. I also have seen the bike depreciate on a couple rides soldquick bought through Kawasaki Pattaya. Even my favorite tech at Kawi says they are a poor value at this point. Till they get in the game & upgrade this model is a no go. Hell my 650 will keep up pretty much to the 800's when I have ridden with some of the 800 club.

3 riders have already ditched their bikes & repurchaced 1000's. I mean why would anyone want to add more weight & have less HP. Especially if you plan on keeping it for 3 years. I think the way the bike is made now it will be a yesterdays flavor when they come out with a stock Abs system. & upgrades to make the weight come down by 20+ kilos & change the archaic swing arm. It is 2014 not 1990. That & I can definitly feel the extra weight & lack of HP next to the 1000's . I think while the 1000's will hold their value with normal bike depreciation the 800's will be a loser on resale....especially if the buyer has ridden both models.

[ATF]

Beardog, I have been studying the 2014 Z1000 and it's impossible to fault the bike at this price. It's about $3-4k cheaper than the KTM 1290 in the US but it's less than half the price here. LED high and low beams standard and the race Akra drops nearly 10 kgs and the stupid exhaust box. With proper tuning should be able to get 145 BHP at the rear wheel actual stock is 125 BHP. Do you know if the Z1000 is imported from Japan or made in Thailand? If I can get a full graphite grey model I think I'll get one soon. Hate the Kawa green!

[Beardog]

Beardog, I have been studying the 2014 Z1000 and it's impossible to fault the bike at this price. It's about $3-4k cheaper than the KTM 1290 in the US but it's less than half the price here. LED high and low beams standard and the race Akra drops nearly 10 kgs and the stupid exhaust box. With proper tuning should be able to get 145 BHP at the rear wheel actual stock is 125 BHP. Do you know if the Z1000 is imported from Japan or made in Thailand? If I can get a full graphite grey model I think I'll get one soon. Hate the Kawa green!

I am pretty sure the 1000 is now made in Thailand. Yankee & Norm W both have the bikes. I think it would have been an extra 300,000 at least if it was a Japanese model. I just don't get it why the 800 is even offered. my 650 will keep up with then all the way to 220 & pretty much stay on their ass the whole way up. If it wasn't so heavy the bike would be worthy. The price is right but to me the package is unacceptable at that price. It should be 100,000 more than the 650 Ninja's -ER6n's. I mean they look nice but side by side you can tell in a the minute you sit on the bikes that the 800 is a real bloated Toad compared to the 1000 & I guess anywhere in the world you would expect to pay the difference for 200 more cc's. I think Kawi screwed the pooch on this one. Another lost opportunity in Thailand to make a statement that you can get the same quality in the 800 & have stock ABS as well. There is a running 1000 Kawasaki thread I think Yankee made about the 1000's good stuff!

[RubberSideDown]

You think the Z1000 would cost more than the ZX-14R (which is currently 895K as opposed to the Z1000 at 599K) if it was a Japanese model (which I believe it actually is)?

The Z800 at 375K is nearly 40% cheaper than the Z1000 in LOS, and it has way more performance than you give it credit for- the reason it's offered here is that it gives more performance than anything else in its price-range. It weighs about 5kg more than the 1K which isn't much, but you'd have to expect done differences based on the huge cost differential.

I've ridden with a lot of Z800s, including several last weekend, and they were certainly fast enough to get out of their own way.

[mania]

Different Strokes I guess but seeing a Non-ABS is a plus for me.

Not interested in the 800 but wish all bikes were offered with OR without ABS

[ATF]

You think the Z1000 would cost more than the ZX-14R (which is currently 895K as opposed to the Z1000 at 599K) if it was a Japanese model (which I believe it actually is)?

The Z800 at 375K is nearly 40% cheaper than the Z1000 in LOS, and it has way more performance than you give it credit for- the reason it's offered here is that it gives more performance than anything else in its price-range. It weighs about 5kg more than the 1K which isn't much, but you'd have to expect done differences based on the huge cost differential.

I've ridden with a lot of Z800s, including several last weekend, and they were certainly fast enough to get out of their own way.

RSD I think you're right the Z1 maybe an import because the UK price difference between a Z8 ABS and a Z1 SE are only 130,000 Baht. Z8 not for sale in the States as far as I can make out. Both bikes are absolute bargains at these prices, however you are getting what you pay for in the Z8. I think they are following Ducati's lead with the Monster 795 hoping once buyers get a taste they'll upgrade. Really wanted a KTM 1290 but it only has 150 BHP at the rear wheel stock against a claimed 180 BHP whereas I am sure I could get about the same out of the Z1 by just spending much less than 100k. That saves 600k and I don't get LED headlights on the KTM.

[ATF]

Different Strokes I guess but seeing a Non-ABS is a plus for me.

Not interested in the 800 but wish all bikes were offered with OR without ABS

ABS can usually be switched off. Having ABS will always get you a better resale value. Some great things about the Z1000 are it doesn't have all those stupid rider modes but has individually damped front shocks which are amazing at this price. They are Showa too which are great shocks. Only gripes I have are the single pot rear brake, but that can be changed and the 50 not 55 rear tire and of course the green, but I'd get that sprayed or changed anyway.

[JohnPark]

I'm really happy with my 800 so far, don't have any complaints about the brakes and love the engine. The best value bike sold in Thailand IMO.

[RubberSideDown]

Different Strokes I guess but seeing a Non-ABS is a plus for me.

Not interested in the 800 but wish all bikes were offered with OR without ABS

ABS can usually be switched off. Having ABS will always get you a better resale value. Some great things about the Z1000 are it doesn't have all those stupid rider modes but has individually damped front shocks which are amazing at this price. They are Showa too which are great shocks. Only gripes I have are the single pot rear brake, but that can be changed and the 50 not 55 rear tire and of course the green, but I'd get that sprayed or changed anyway.

Those rider modes are actually really useful as they allow more than one ECU map to be stored. I overwrote the stock 'low power' map on my bike with a map that gives me greatly increased midrange, but at the expense of gas consumption- now I have the option to switch from it to the factory 'H' (which is now essentially my 'L' map;)) if I'm touring and need the increased range, and I'm not stuck with one map.

[ATF]

Different Strokes I guess but seeing a Non-ABS is a plus for me.

Not interested in the 800 but wish all bikes were offered with OR without ABS

ABS can usually be switched off. Having ABS will always get you a better resale value. Some great things about the Z1000 are it doesn't have all those stupid rider modes but has individually damped front shocks which are amazing at this price. They are Showa too which are great shocks. Only gripes I have are the single pot rear brake, but that can be changed and the 50 not 55 rear tire and of course the green, but I'd get that sprayed or changed anyway.

Those rider modes are actually really useful as they allow more than one ECU map to be stored. I overwrote the stock 'low power' map on my bike with a map that gives me greatly increased midrange, but at the expense of gas consumption- now I have the option to switch from it to the factory 'H' (which is now essentially my 'L' map;)) if I'm touring and need the increased range, and I'm not stuck with one map.

I thought you had a power commander on your bike? I always leave the ECU alone and map the PCV. Bazzaz is better now than the PCV unless you really need dual autotune, any autotune is really unnecessary in Thailand if you've dynoed the bike properly. On a big sport tourer like yours I can understand the benefits of multi mode ride settings but it just seems they have starting putting it on everything now.

[RubberSideDown]

I do have a PC, but it doesn't do anything to the ignition settings or STP (secondary throttle plate) opening sequence, which can only be accessed through the ECU (as well as several other features which I've gone through in other threads).

If you think you're going to increase rwhp by 20%, you're sure not going to do it with a stock ECU.

There is a lot of power available via the ECU if it's tuned correctly, and it can actually eliminate the need for a PC entirely- if I were in the US, I'd have a tuner set my ECU up properly so I could dump the PC, but I haven't found any in LOS I have enough faith in to do that.

As far as the rider modes go, it looks like a third one has been found for my bike (basically a redundant setting that Kawasaki put in in case they need it later) which means I may be able to load a third map, which I'm pretty happy about as there are other experimental maps I'd like to try without dumping the two maps that I already know work well- if I had a Z1000 (or any other sportbike) I'd want to be able to switch maps on-the-fly without having to pull my seat and remove my toolbox to hook my laptop to the ECU.

Woolich Racing has ECU tuning software for the Z1000 (as well as several other bikes), and tuners are moving way beyond the PC.

Edited May 8, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[ATF]

I do have a PC, but it doesn't do anything to the ignition settings or STP (secondary throttle plate) opening sequence, which can only be accessed through the ECU (as well as several other features which I've gone through in other threads).

If you think you're going to increase rwhp by 20%, you're sure not going to do it with a stock ECU.

There is a lot of power available via the ECU if it's tuned correctly, and it can actually eliminate the need for a PC entirely- if I were in the US, I'd have a tuner set my ECU up properly so I could dump the PC, but I haven't found any in LOS I have enough faith in to do that.

The PCV for your bike has an additional ignition control module you can change the ignition timing through this. Another alternative to Bazzaz or PC is Rexxer which will flash your ECU but save the original map in it's off board unit. It will allow you to change almost everything. Of course max BHP will come from a racing exhaust and air filter but a new map will need to be created. The Rexxer isn't listed for Kawa but it is compatible with a Keihin ECU. There are other similar products available though. Main advantage of using a piggy back unit is you can map each gear and cylinder separately so for a 4cyl bike you would have 24 individual fuel maps plus another 24 Autotune trim maps. Should stop you getting bored. I have a great tuner who lived in the US most of his life but is Thai I'm sure he could do a good job for you. He has for me but he's not cheap.