Spring rolls, wontons, gyoza

[Kanga Japan]

I wonder if someone could tell me if the descriptions on the attached are correct.

Obviously some of them are, but I am not sure about some others.

Thank you for your help.

Spring rolls, etc..pdf

[AyG]

Kanga, sorry to say, but you have some issues with your transliteration.

In 1 & 2 you represent the letter ป as p and b respectively. In 8-12 & 14 you use bp.

In 4, 8, 9 12 you represent the vowel sound อ as o, and in 6 & 7 as or.

ก is k in some places and g in others.

Showing vowel length in bpaaeng is inconsistent; elsewhere you don't show vowel length.

In 1 & 2 the transliteration has terminal -p on the first syllable. It's definitely shouldn't be there in #1 and almost certainly not there in #2.

The transliteration giao sa might be wrong. Not sure about the 'o'. Could be 'w'.

My advice would be to put the Thai into thai-language.com and get the RTGS version as I previously suggested by PM.

There also appears to be something wrong with your Thai typing (or it could be a problem with Adobe Acrobat). Copy and paste the Thai text into another application and it comes out wrong. For example, แป8งห;อปอเป%)ยะ.

Now, as for the actual content. Is there a difference between fresh spring rolls and Vietnamese spring rolls? I believe they're the same thing.

There's another term for Vietnamese spring rolls: เปาะเปี๊ยะเวียดนาม (popia wiatnam).

เกี๊ยว is a little bit broader than wonton, referring to a range of stuffed pastas. Dumpling might be a better alternative English translation.

Your spring roll wrapper names are a bit confusing. They all stem from pen bpaaeng hor po pia. Translating it word by word: sheet, flour, wrap, spring roll. The variants are all formed by omitting one or more of these words. However, when you get to bpaaeng ho you've lost any reference to spring rolls, so it refers to any sort of flour wrapper.

Hope that's all clear and helps.

[Mole]

เปาะเปี๊ยะทอด (po pia thot) is fried spring rolls and เปาะเปี๊ยะสด (po pia sot) is the fresh variety.

Most of the time it's sufficient to just say เปาะเปี๊ยะ because they usually only have one type of spring rolls, but some restaurants do have both, so in this case, one must specify which type.

เปาะเปี๊ยะ just means spring rolls and most of the time it's enough and no need to explicitly say เปาะเปี๊ยะเวียดนาม unless for example you're in a Vietnamese restaurant and in the menu they want to explicitly say it's spring rolls made in the traditional Vietnamese way, fresh with it's condiments and garnish and all that.

Spring roll wrappers are just called แผ่นเปาะเปี๊ยะ phaen po pia (spring roll sheets) แผ่น means sheets, like a sheet of paper or metal.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Mole

[AyG]

เปาะเปี๊ยะ just means spring rolls and most of the time it's enough and no need to explicitly say เปาะเปี๊ยะเวียดนาม unless for example you're in a Vietnamese restaurant and in the menu they want to explicitly say it's spring rolls made in the traditional Vietnamese way, fresh with it's condiments and garnish and all that.

Mole, I think that's a little confusing. If one just asked for เปาะเปี๊ยะ one'd get the deep fried version, not the fresh. One'd explicitly need to ask for เปาะเปี๊ยะสด to get the fresh ones.

[Mole]

How can that be confusing??

As I said in my post, it depends on if the establishment have both or not. If they do, you would have to specify either one otherwise they wouldn't really know which one you'd like if you just said เปาะเปี๊ยะ.

The fried variety is the most common ones here in Thailand though. But still, at a restaurant which has both, you will need to specify exactly which. They won't assume that if you just said เปาะเปี๊ยะ, that you'd mean the fried variety.

Also the Vietnamese style spring rolls are definitely not the same as the usual เปาะเปี๊ยะสด you'd find in most places here in Thailand, which I believe to be a Chinese style. So เปาะเปี๊ยะสด and เปาะเปี๊ยะเวียดนาม won't be the same thing, albeit both are not fried.

Google either and you'll immediately see the difference.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Mole

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG and Mole,

Thank you both for your comments. I appreciate your patience and understanding regarding my poor transliterations.

I will transliterate the words later using the RTGS method, but for the moment I am just sticking to a more pronunciation-close transliteration for non-Thai readers. Also, some of the words in my list do not appear in thai-language.com, so sometimes I am lost. Just to explain:

1. I have changed some of the romanized spellings to be more uniform. In cooking sites, spring rolls are often written as PO PIA, rather than BO BIA. Also, flour is often written as BPAAENG. I will work these out later.

2. I can't type the Thai words in myself, so I always paste them in.

3. Vietnamese spring rolls are usually the fresh type, generally speaking, however some restaurants sell both the fresh and fried type.

4. AyG. Thanks for giving me the individual words for PEN PAAENG HOR PO PIA.

5. I wonder if there is a special word used for WONTON in Thai. On the internet and in books, they are often referred to as GIAO. If that is correct, I assume that 11 and 12 will be OK to use.

6. Have either of you (or anybody else) heard of 5, 6 and 7 in my list?

7. Are 8 and 10 OK to use?

8. What would be Thai for 'rice paper', as used in Vietnamese spring rolls? My list shows:

- PAAENG HOR SOD แป้งห่อสด

- PAAENG POPIA SOD แผ่นปอเปี๊ยะสด

Thank you so much for your help. I hope I have not missed any corrections in the list. The ones highlighted in yellow are ones which I think are OK to use.

Spring rolls, etc R1.pdf

[AyG]

1. I have changed some of the romanized spellings to be more uniform. In cooking sites, spring rolls are often written as PO PIA, rather than BO BIA. Also, flour is often written as BPAAENG. I will work these out later.

- PAAENG HOR SOD แป้งห่อสด

- PAAENG POPIA SOD แผ่นปอเปี๊ยะสด

Thank you so much for your help. I hope I have not missed any corrections in the list. The ones highlighted in yellow are ones which I think are OK to use.

The consonant in popia is ป - a sort of soft English "p" (it's unaspirated). Most systems transliterate this as "p". (The aspirated "p" which is the one we use in English is transliterated "ph". Benjawan Poomsan Becker (who has written a few books for learners) uses "bp" for this sound. The use of "b" is definitely wrong.

And as for fresh spring roll wrappers, take pen bpaaeng hor po pia sot and drop some of the words according to your mood. There's no one fixed expression - it will depend upon the individual speaker/writer.

You've struck out #2 in your attachment. The Thai word is good. It has a different vowel on the first syllable from #1. #1 is short, "o"; #2 is long "or".

At a quick glance, I think all of your entries are valid (apart from concerns about transliteration) - not just the yellow ones. But Mole is the native speaker, and I defer to him.

Edited May 6, 2014 by AyG

[Kanga Japan]

Attaching the list again. I think the other one was split up.

Sorry about that.

Spring rolls, etc R2.pdf

[Mole]

Exactly what is "paaeng hor popia"?

For the rice paper used to wrap spring rolls, just แผ่นปอเปี๊ยะ phaen po pia is sufficient. There no need to mention anything else.

The word แป้ง paeng is always used to refer to flour in it's powder state. When it's transformed into dough or something else, it will lose this word and other words will be used described it. What word will wary depends on exactly what it has been transformed to.

So just the word แป้งห่อ doesn't even make sense in Thai because แป้ง means flour, but ห่อ means to wrap, and you can not wrap something with a flour/powder.

In Thai, it is redundant to use too many words.

For example, it's enough to say แผ่นปอเปี๊ยะ as in "po pia sheets" because it's immediately understood what it is and what to do with it, so there's no need to say "sheets made from flour to wrap around fresh po pia", which is basically what "pen bpaaeng hor po pia sot" means.

FYI, "po pia" is not a native Thai word and it's a loan word from Teochew Chinese and I believe the fresh variety commonly available in Thailand is the variety from those parts of China.

Update: OK, I realize my example of dough is not so good, because there's really no native word for this in Thai, so it's usually called ส่วนผสมแป้ง as in "flour mixture".

But for other native Thai words, what I said is still relevant.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Mole

[Kanga Japan]

Dear AyG,

Thanks for your quick response.

1. ป

Your comments are noted and appreciated. I will use a P.

2. FRESH SPRING ROLL WRAPPERS

OK. I will use PEN BPAAENG HOR PO PIA SOT. Just for the record, are 5 and 6 OK? Are they perhaps words used just locally and not well known?

5. NO. 2

I though no. 2 was a typographical error. I will restore it and mark it as POR PIA.

Thanks again. I am very surprised to hear that you are not Thai.

PS I have resent the list, as the previous one was split. Changes according to your comments were not made to it at that stage.

[Mole]

Umm.. looks like my bad again regarding แป้งห่อ... it appears to be correct.

แผ่นปอเปี้ยะ is the most commonly used, at least that's what I've heard used most. (We sell these at my mother's supermarket in Norway, and have always called it this.) But it appears that some also call it แป้งปอเปี้ยะ.

The rest looks correct. (except of course for the rather peculiar romanization you've used)

Edited May 6, 2014 by Mole

[Kanga Japan]

Dear Mole,

Thanks for your reply regarding rice paper.

1. PAAENG HOR POPIA was listed on the internet/books as 'spring roll wrappers'. I will remove it.

2. I will use แผ่นปอเปี๊ยะ PAAENG POPIA as the description for spring rolls (as well as POPIA). I notice that your Thai script differs from mine.

3. Have you heard of 5, 6 and 7?

4. Is there a special word in Thai for 'wontons', 'wonton wrappers'?

Thanks again for your help.

[Mole]

Actually it appears that some sources write ปอเปี๊ยะ and some ปอเปี้ยะ but "ปอเปี๊ยะ" should be the correct one.

[Mole]

1 & 2 You can put it as alternative spelling because PAAENG HOR POPIA can also be valid. แป้งปอเปี๊ยะ แป้งห่อปอเปี๊ยะ แผ่นปอเปี๊ยะ also แผ่นห่อปอเปี๊ยะ if you want. ห่อ is really redundant, but you can include it if you want.

3 ก๋วยเตี๋ยวลุยสวน is a special type of fresh spring roll. Something which closely resemble the so called Vietnamese summer rolls.

3 กระยอ appears to be the Thai word for ปอเปี๊ยะ which is Chinese loan word. Since I'm Thai/Chinese, I've always used po pia though.

4 I only know of เกี๊ยว kiaw used for dumplings and wontons. It's also a Chinese loan word.

[Kanga Japan]

Dear Mole,

Thanks so much for your 3 most recent mails regarding the spring rolls.

I appreciate your help.