Euda Farming

[MarcIssan]

I have 85 rai in Euca trees and because I don't have all the machinery to harvest and market the trees, I sold the crop standing last year for 1.2 million Baht. I think I gave away a bunch of profit but I am in America and the trees are in Udon so I made a quick deal and forgot about it.

This next time I want to cut, haul, and sell the trees myself and my wife and Thai family always come up with reasons why it will not work or why we cannot do it instead of what we can do to accomplish the goal.

They tell me we need 'quota' or we wait hours in line at the distribution yard. Can someone explain what they are talking about?

They tell me no one will want to work for us since we cannot provide steady jobs that once our crop is sold, we will not need them any longer. Why not raise the pay a bit so they make more money?

They say there are 3 prices for Eucca. One for small poles, one for straight, tall trees, and one for mid-sized trees that may be slightly bent. Is this true?

They say the large straight trees fetch more money since they can make furniture with it but we need to know who the buyers are and take the trees to them? True and who buys trees like this in Udon?

They say on the second cut it will take on average 15 trees per ton and if that is true I'll make less money than I did on the first cut. What do you know of this..on average?

So it seems I need a mentor and guidance because 1 million baht every 3-5 years is not enough to keep me interested.

Any other cash crops to consider?

Marc

[Jotham79]

I have first hand experience in teak and have second hand knowledge of Euca in Petchabun so things may be different where your are at. Disclaimer: What I am about to tell you is probably not what you want to hear. You asked so I am doing what I can to answer. You will get a full refund of what you paid if you are not happy . Also, there will probably be lots of conflicting opinions so you can pick the one you like the most.

I have 85 rai in Euca trees and because I don't have all the machinery to harvest and market the trees, I sold the crop standing last year for 1.2 million Baht. I think I gave away a bunch of profit but I am in America and the trees are in Udon so I made a quick deal and forgot about it.

85 rai is a lot of euca. It sound like you made money if not the return you wanted. A lot of people have done worse, but I understand your goal.

This next time I want to cut, haul, and sell the trees myself and my wife and Thai family always come up with reasons why it will not work or why we cannot do it instead of what we can do to accomplish the goal.

There is an established procedure using brokers and it would be difficult and costly going around them. You will need saws, trucks and some lifting equipment and it will be difficult to recoup the cost. Unless you want to become a broker, it will be costly.

They tell me we need 'quota' or we wait hours in line at the distribution yard. Can someone explain what they are talking about?

The distribution yard will set quotas of how many and what size of trees they want and will assign these to various brokers. As long as these brokers have trees ready to deliver, you will never get in. you will not wait hours, you will wait months or longer. A broker will always have his next stand of timber locked up and ready to cut.

They tell me no one will want to work for us since we cannot provide steady jobs that once our crop is sold, we will not need them any longer. Why not raise the pay a bit so they make more money?

The broker will have a crew that will have work lined up a month in advance. If they help you cut a broker out of a job, they are done working for any broker ever. You will really have to make it worth their while.

They say there are 3 prices for Eucca. One for small poles, one for straight, tall trees, and one for mid-sized trees that may be slightly bent. Is this true?

It is actually more complicated, but you really do not have to consider this. The broker evaluates your patch of trees and will give you a single price. They do not buy individual trees, they buy stands of trees. They may use the grading criteria to explain their bid. Get 3 brokers and do a little haggling.

They say the large straight trees fetch more money since they can make furniture with it but we need to know who the buyers are and take the trees to them? True and who buys trees like this in Udon?

This sounds reasonable, but I imagine it is the same brokers. Contact your provincial forestry office to get contact numbers for brokers.

They say on the second cut it will take on average 15 trees per ton and if that is true I'll make less money than I did on the first cut. What do you know of this..on average.

15 trees per ton is really big for 3-5 years. That is nearly 70 kg per tree. It would take really good conditions for euca to grow that much in 3-5 years so you must be looking at waiting a while. Also the trees on the second cut tend to be smaller. The way it works is the original tree is cut down and several shoots come up from each stump. They tend to smaller but straight, but I could see you betting more tons per rai. I suppose you could thin to get larger trees.

So it seems I need a mentor and guidance because 1 million baht every 3-5 years is not enough to keep me interested.

If you can't find some one local PM me.

Any other cash crops to consider?

Anything but pineapple. Also, euca tends to really mess up the ph of the soil and you will have to really clear the stumps and roots or you will have euca shooting up everywhere. With 85 rai and you not being around much you might look into cassava, sugar or some other long term crop. Find what is working in your area that can handle the PH.

Marc

Good luck.

[MarcIssan]

I have first hand experience in teak and have second hand knowledge of Euca in Petchabun so things may be different where your are at. Disclaimer: What I am about to tell you is probably not what you want to hear. You asked so I am doing what I can to answer. You will get a full refund of what you paid if you are not happy . Also, there will probably be lots of conflicting opinions so you can pick the one you like the most.

I have 85 rai in Euca trees and because I don't have all the machinery to harvest and market the trees, I sold the crop standing last year for 1.2 million Baht. I think I gave away a bunch of profit but I am in America and the trees are in Udon so I made a quick deal and forgot about it.

85 rai is a lot of euca. It sound like you made money if not the return you wanted. A lot of people have done worse, but I understand your goal.

This next time I want to cut, haul, and sell the trees myself and my wife and Thai family always come up with reasons why it will not work or why we cannot do it instead of what we can do to accomplish the goal.

There is an established procedure using brokers and it would be difficult and costly going around them. You will need saws, trucks and some lifting equipment and it will be difficult to recoup the cost. Unless you want to become a broker, it will be costly.

They tell me we need 'quota' or we wait hours in line at the distribution yard. Can someone explain what they are talking about?

The distribution yard will set quotas of how many and what size of trees they want and will assign these to various brokers. As long as these brokers have trees ready to deliver, you will never get in. you will not wait hours, you will wait months or longer. A broker will always have his next stand of timber locked up and ready to cut.

They tell me no one will want to work for us since we cannot provide steady jobs that once our crop is sold, we will not need them any longer. Why not raise the pay a bit so they make more money?

The broker will have a crew that will have work lined up a month in advance. If they help you cut a broker out of a job, they are done working for any broker ever. You will really have to make it worth their while.

They say there are 3 prices for Eucca. One for small poles, one for straight, tall trees, and one for mid-sized trees that may be slightly bent. Is this true?

It is actually more complicated, but you really do not have to consider this. The broker evaluates your patch of trees and will give you a single price. They do not buy individual trees, they buy stands of trees. They may use the grading criteria to explain their bid. Get 3 brokers and do a little haggling.

They say the large straight trees fetch more money since they can make furniture with it but we need to know who the buyers are and take the trees to them? True and who buys trees like this in Udon?

This sounds reasonable, but I imagine it is the same brokers. Contact your provincial forestry office to get contact numbers for brokers.

They say on the second cut it will take on average 15 trees per ton and if that is true I'll make less money than I did on the first cut. What do you know of this..on average.

15 trees per ton is really big for 3-5 years. That is nearly 70 kg per tree. It would take really good conditions for euca to grow that much in 3-5 years so you must be looking at waiting a while. Also the trees on the second cut tend to be smaller. The way it works is the original tree is cut down and several shoots come up from each stump. They tend to smaller but straight, but I could see you betting more tons per rai. I suppose you could thin to get larger trees.

So it seems I need a mentor and guidance because 1 million baht every 3-5 years is not enough to keep me interested.

If you can't find some one local PM me.

Any other cash crops to consider?

Anything but pineapple. Also, euca tends to really mess up the ph of the soil and you will have to really clear the stumps and roots or you will have euca shooting up everywhere. With 85 rai and you not being around much you might look into cassava, sugar or some other long term crop. Find what is working in your area that can handle the PH.

Marc

Good luck.

Well that explains it better. My Thai family probably understands all this but the details get lost in translation.

Basically I was trying to look at the economics of gathering the machinery to cut and deliver the trees myself to the distribution yard essentially eliminating the guy who does that work and capturing his profit. My Thai uncle approached us to sell our trees as a standing crop but his offer was too low. He is not a broker and he does such deal randomly so I thought if he can do it so can I. I waited and another offer came in that we took. I don't know the final tonnage of the trees but he took all 85 rai for 1.2 million baht. It was the first cut and many were 6-8" diameter after 4-5 years growing. We are 6-7 months into the second growing as of May.

My brother in law did a sample cut (not sure if he chose just the largest or if he did a random cut) and took them to market via tac tac said many of the trees were 1 ton each. Again, maybe much was lost in translation. So 85 Rai at 180 trees per rai is 15,300 trees more or less. At 3 trees per ton (just a guess...and not an educated on either) that is 5100 tons and at 750 baht per ton that is 3,825,000 baht. Not sure how accurate this is...just guessing. My 1.2 million looks kind of small by comparison and if my estimates are close, the added 2.6 million baht long term could pay for trucks and saws etc. Even if that number is less, I would like you comments on my numbers so I can determine the feasibility of this line of thinking.

So if my uncle can cut, haul, and sell and he is not a broker why can't I get to this point with some investment?

We have other land too and have grown sugar cane and cassava. Neither have produced windfall profits...maybe that is just the way it is. I have been looking into rubber but my wife said rubber is way down like 20 baht per kilo. No money there! Cassava shows some profit but since I pay for labor, fertilizer, fuel etc I think I made only about 300,000 baht net profit from 25 rai last year.

Yes I have read about the problems with Eucca but the land all around me is all Eucca except for some rubber across the road. What I like about it is the labor is really low month by month once they are all planted. I am sure that will change when I need to pull the stumps in a few years...what to do with 15,000 stumps and what will that cost be? I am planning for that day when I need to decide what goes in there next. For sure I'll leave the land idle for a year and plant a cover crop like mung beans etc then just plow it under to hopefully restore the soil somewhat.

As you can tell I am no farmer. I thought I could make some decent money and help my family better provide for their needs but that has not been the case so far. With land values going up, I am better off selling it all and investing the cash. I am currently getting 12%-14% on other investments and I don't have to do anything! But I don't want to give up too soon.

Comments?

Marc

[riceyummm]

Consider the possibility that your uncle may just have been acting as a middleman between you and an established broker.

He passes the job on to the broker and gets a cut cut for the referral, therefore a smaller profit for you. Smart guy.

[Openmind111]

When I cleared my land I had several euca trees as well which I had to remove, so may be my experience is of some use, even it weren't that many trees.

They were about 17-18 trees in different sizes. First I asked a few people how much they would pay for them, the first one wanted them for free, they seem to call that "helping" the seond offered me 200 baht . So I asked further around and found a recycling storehouse, which also takes euca.

Mainly, the euca is used for paper pulp, if you had big trees you could use them for furniture or construction which would fetch a higher price.

I knew there is a pulp factory somewhere, which would pay 750 baht on that time, but I brought it to the storehouse which was very near and I got there 650 baht per ton. I didn't mind as it were not that many trees.

To cut a long story short, I cut them all by myself with the help of my father and brought them there, the largest was 440 kg with at least 25 cm diameter, more probably 30, the average was not even 200 kg per tree.

I have to say I don't know the age of my trees but 15 trees who are 5 years old for a ton seems pretty accurate to me.

But I wonder why are there only 180 trees per rai? Even teak trees the locals plant 400 trees per rai initially, I read somewhere with euca you can go as close as 1.5 meters spacing, equivalent to 700+ trees per rai.

180 trees x 65 kg/tree x 85 rai = 994.5 tons

700 trees x 65 kg/tree x 85 rai = 3867.5 tons

But as for the ROI I take the example with 700 trees. 700 trees x 65 kg/tree = 45.5 tons. with a price of 700 baht a to that sums to 31850 baht per rai per 5 year, at this spacings it might be even 6 years. Turns out to be 6370 baht/rai/year in a good case and most important you have to think of the costs, if you want to cut, load and market it by yourself, how much you think you have to pay for fuel, vehicle, labour,....

When I looked into it I came to the same conclusions and for me it was a no go

That's what I know about it

[Jotham79]

Thanks Openmind111, that is some good info. Doing it yourself may be considerably more practical than I thought. We don’t have a pulp plant around where I am at and that could be just the ticket. With pulp you cut the logs into lengths of less than 2 (?) meters and they are very easy to handle so you only need a saw and any truck. And I would think it easier to get into a que with maybe a small bribe. I would definitely recommend the OP investigate this. If anyone out there has sold direct before it would be great to hear.

I think that explains it better. My Thai family probably understands all this but the details get lost in translation.

Been there done that.

Basically I was trying to look at the economics of gathering the machinery to cut and deliver the trees myself to the distribution yard essentially eliminating the guy who does that work and capturing his profit. My Thai uncle approached us to sell our trees as a standing crop but his offer was too low. He is not a broker and he does such deal randomly so I thought if he can do it so can I. I waited and another offer came in that we took. I don't know the final tonnage of the trees but he took all 85 rai for 1.2 million baht. It was the first cut and many were 6-8" diameter after 4-5 years growing. We are 6-7 months into the second growing as of May.

Many trees at 6-8” could be only 20%. It is natural to look at the larger trees but the mass drops of exponentially as the size decreases. It sounds like you have time on your side to get back there and see what is what. When I sold my teak the 3^rd broker bid 40% more than the first and I negotiated keeping a few trees. I estimate he still made over 20%.

My brother in law did a sample cut (not sure if he chose just the largest or if he did a random cut) and took them to market via tac tac said many of the trees were 1 ton each. Again, maybe much was lost in translation. So 85 Rai at 180 trees per rai is 15,300 trees more or less. At 3 trees per ton (just a guess...and not an educated on either) that is 5100 tons and at 750 baht per ton that is 3,825,000 baht. Not sure how accurate this is...just guessing. My 1.2 million looks kind of small by comparison and if my estimates are close, the added 2.6 million baht long term could pay for trucks and saws etc. Even if that number is less, I would like you comments on my numbers so I can determine the feasibility of this line of thinking.

I tend to beat the hell out of a calculator and there are many things to consider:

1. Not sure where you got 3 trees per ton or you bil got 1 ton per tree? You just went to 300 kg per tree. Lets pretend that we go back to the 65 kg per tree and 180 trees per rai with 85 rai would give you almost 1,000 tons for 750,000 baht. If you go with 700 trees per rai I think your mass per tree will drop a little so let’s pretend goes to 50 kg per tree (I still think this may be a high). You end up with 3,000 tons at 700 baht per ton for 2.1 million baht. Now the broker will be getting a good chunk of this.
2. As Openmind111 said it is more common to go with 1.5 meter spacing. Which gives about 700 trees per rai.
3. To give anything like reasonable guesses you need to find how many trees you had/have. And get a solid estimate of the AVERAGE mass of the trees.
4. The closer together they are planted the smaller the trees, but you net more tonnage. 65kg per tree if they are more than 2 meters apart is reasonable.
5. When you crank the numbers after you get an accurate average weight per tree and an accurate tree count then figure 20-30% to the broker. get several bids, start your haggling high and see where you land.
6. I think the problem here is an estimate of the mass of the tree. It is really hard to make a good estimate of this as it is natural to look at the bigger trees. I have no doubt you will have some big trees but you need to get back there and see what other tracks are going for. Everything else is just a WAG.
   

So if my uncle can cut, haul, and sell and he is not a broker why can't I get to this point with some investment?

My guess is that you FIL was going pay a nai na (commission) to a broker and that is why he had a low number.

We have other land too and have grown sugar cane and cassava. Neither have produced windfall profits...maybe that is just the way it is. I have been looking into rubber but my wife said rubber is way down like 20 baht per kilo. No money there! Cassava shows some profit but since I pay for labor, fertilizer, fuel etc I think I made only about 300,000 baht net profit from 25 rai last year.

At that rate you netted 12,000 baht a rai. If you can get this return you should go cassava all the way.

Yes I have read about the problems with Eucca but the land all around me is all Eucca except for some rubber across the road. What I like about it is the labor is really low month by month once they are all planted. I am sure that will change when I need to pull the stumps in a few years...what to do with 15,000 stumps and what will that cost be? I am planning for that day when I need to decide what goes in there next. For sure I'll leave the land idle for a year and plant a cover crop like mung beans etc then just plow it under to hopefully restore the soil somewhat.

I spent a fortune on 7 rai of teak (around 20,000 baht) , but 15 year old teak stumps would be many times harder to clear. There are lots of folks on here and some good posts about improving the soil, but you need to manage the PH and I can’t help you there, but if you can get a reasonable return stay with euca.

As you can tell I am no farmer. I thought I could make some decent money and help my family better provide for their needs but that has not been the case so far. With land values going up, I am better off selling it all and investing the cash. I am currently getting 12%-14% on other investments and I don't have to do anything! But I don't want to give up too soon.

Land prices have been skyrocketing for a while, but I am hearing the market is a bit slow at the moment due to the political problems at the moment. Just something to consider.

Now for some unsolicited cultural advice and feel free to ignore this and please don't take offense. If you did not get every baht you should have regardless of where the fault lies, then the blame will lay on your wife and her family and there will be a loss of face. Your family may know or not know if the price you got was fair, but the more you question they more they will lose face and you will get stonewalled. Continue to push and you will do serious relation ship damage. I am not saying not to ask questions, but they need to be very non-threatening general questions spread over time and best done in person and in a very calm or even cheerful manner. What ever happened has happened and if your price wasn’t fair then just be careful next time.

[pigeonjake]

im sorry but the way i look at it,, and again we must remember this is thailand,,

anything that is doing well, wont do well for long because they will all be at it and drive the price down,

lamyai around us there are fields of trees now everybody is planting it, even my in laws,,lol

i told the wife, all they will do is drive the price down and no one will make money,, then its onto the next big thing,,

i like my pigs as the average thai farmer cant do it in a big way,, to much money tied up and ongoing,,

ill stick to my pigs,,

again just my opinion, not every one will agree, so lets not get nasty,,lol

jake

[MarcIssan]

Thanks to all who have posted. I did some research yesterday on Euca tree mass calculations and there are some reports I can buy that tell how to calculate it. I'm looking for the free Excel template or something like it. Anyway I did learn that partly seasoned Eucaluptus has a mass of 600-700 kg per cubic meter so that is a start.

I think there is a geometric formumla to calculate the volume of an irregular cylendar (cone) so all I need are some average circumference measurements at 1 meter intervals along the full height of a sampling of trees with various circumferences at the cut line. Or maybe I can measure the circumference at each end of a 1 meter cut and take an average then do a volume calculaton on the cylendar.

If I keep the land and continue the Euca farming, I can then do random sample measurements at the base calculatting (estimating) the mass by volume then apply that to the stand to estimate market value. Therefore I can wait longer if necessary to maximize market value then cut when the numbers work.

As far as the last time, my wife was there and closed the deal on the sale so I know all of the money was banked. We had 2-3 offers and took the highest one of course. They put a big chunk down on the spot and paid the rest before they cut. It all went well with no glitches.

I am a do-it-yourself kind of guy and got into this business thinking I could cover the process from growing to marketing. I have 137 rai total but we planted sugar cane and cassava to increase cash flow between Euca cuts but the cost of production killed and appreciable profits. It was later all the Euca road blocks became known and I don't like road blocks. First is was the lack of labor so I designed an automated process for felling, dragging, cutting, and loading that reduces the workforce in half using portable sawmills and conveyers (that I can have manufactured locally or weld up myself) and should speed the process considerably. My family kept telling me the broker has the tools and trucks and workers that we don't. I'll invest in all this if the numbers work.

Now its the broker issue...we need 'quota' and we are not big enough to have it. So I asked how can I haul my own loads and get paid by the distribution yard directly and by pass the broker. They do not have an answer. With some investment and ingenuity I can cut and load my own goods. So there is where I am stumped..by passing the broker. If I cannot over come this then the investment it will take in machinery won't mnake sense.

Thanks again for your posts.

[Jotham79]

Thanks to all who have posted. I did some research yesterday on Euca tree mass calculations and there are some reports I can buy that tell how to calculate it. I'm looking for the free Excel template or something like it. Anyway I did learn that partly seasoned Eucaluptus has a mass of 600-700 kg per cubic meter so that is a start.

I think there is a geometric formumla to calculate the volume of an irregular cylendar (cone) so all I need are some average circumference measurements at 1 meter intervals along the full height of a sampling of trees with various circumferences at the cut line. Or maybe I can measure the circumference at each end of a 1 meter cut and take an average then do a volume calculaton on the cylendar.

If I keep the land and continue the Euca farming, I can then do random sample measurements at the base calculatting (estimating) the mass by volume then apply that to the stand to estimate market value. Therefore I can wait longer if necessary to maximize market value then cut when the numbers work.

As far as the last time, my wife was there and closed the deal on the sale so I know all of the money was banked. We had 2-3 offers and took the highest one of course. They put a big chunk down on the spot and paid the rest before they cut. It all went well with no glitches.

I am a do-it-yourself kind of guy and got into this business thinking I could cover the process from growing to marketing. I have 137 rai total but we planted sugar cane and cassava to increase cash flow between Euca cuts but the cost of production killed and appreciable profits. It was later all the Euca road blocks became known and I don't like road blocks. First is was the lack of labor so I designed an automated process for felling, dragging, cutting, and loading that reduces the workforce in half using portable sawmills and conveyers (that I can have manufactured locally or weld up myself) and should speed the process considerably. My family kept telling me the broker has the tools and trucks and workers that we don't. I'll invest in all this if the numbers work.

Now its the broker issue...we need 'quota' and we are not big enough to have it. So I asked how can I haul my own loads and get paid by the distribution yard directly and by pass the broker. They do not have an answer. With some investment and ingenuity I can cut and load my own goods. So there is where I am stumped..by passing the broker. If I cannot over come this then the investment it will take in machinery won't mnake sense.

Thanks again for your posts.

I know one guy that got his BIL a teak buyers permit and started a teak furniture and retail business. If you have all the equipment it sounds like scaling up would be a possibly.

Both of your volume formula will work.

Good luck getting around the broker, please post back if you have any joy.

[MarcIssan]

Thanks to all who have posted. I did some research yesterday on Euca tree mass calculations and there are some reports I can buy that tell how to calculate it. I'm looking for the free Excel template or something like it. Anyway I did learn that partly seasoned Eucaluptus has a mass of 600-700 kg per cubic meter so that is a start.

I think there is a geometric formumla to calculate the volume of an irregular cylendar (cone) so all I need are some average circumference measurements at 1 meter intervals along the full height of a sampling of trees with various circumferences at the cut line. Or maybe I can measure the circumference at each end of a 1 meter cut and take an average then do a volume calculaton on the cylendar.

If I keep the land and continue the Euca farming, I can then do random sample measurements at the base calculatting (estimating) the mass by volume then apply that to the stand to estimate market value. Therefore I can wait longer if necessary to maximize market value then cut when the numbers work.

As far as the last time, my wife was there and closed the deal on the sale so I know all of the money was banked. We had 2-3 offers and took the highest one of course. They put a big chunk down on the spot and paid the rest before they cut. It all went well with no glitches.

I am a do-it-yourself kind of guy and got into this business thinking I could cover the process from growing to marketing. I have 137 rai total but we planted sugar cane and cassava to increase cash flow between Euca cuts but the cost of production killed and appreciable profits. It was later all the Euca road blocks became known and I don't like road blocks. First is was the lack of labor so I designed an automated process for felling, dragging, cutting, and loading that reduces the workforce in half using portable sawmills and conveyers (that I can have manufactured locally or weld up myself) and should speed the process considerably. My family kept telling me the broker has the tools and trucks and workers that we don't. I'll invest in all this if the numbers work.

Now its the broker issue...we need 'quota' and we are not big enough to have it. So I asked how can I haul my own loads and get paid by the distribution yard directly and by pass the broker. They do not have an answer. With some investment and ingenuity I can cut and load my own goods. So there is where I am stumped..by passing the broker. If I cannot over come this then the investment it will take in machinery won't mnake sense.

Thanks again for your posts.

I know one guy that got his BIL a teak buyers permit and started a teak furniture and retail business. If you have all the equipment it sounds like scaling up would be a possibly.

Both of your volume formula will work.

Good luck getting around the broker, please post back if you have any joy.

Thanks. Both parcels are up for sale and I'll deal with this more if they don't sell. Thanks again.

[Canada]

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

[MarcIssan]

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

Not really..I am far away in the US and asided from the Euca, I pay little attention to the rest. This is actually more for my Thai family and whatever I make goes to them anyway. I think once I retire there I'll look into this more. I'm curious about the meaning of your post. What is the end result of sugan cane growing?

Marc

[Canada]

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

Not really..I am far away in the US and asided from the Euca, I pay little attention to the rest. This is actually more for my Thai family and whatever I make goes to them anyway. I think once I retire there I'll look into this more. I'm curious about the meaning of your post. What is the end result of sugan cane growing?

Marc

Hi.

In one of your posts you say that you also grow sugar cane and cassava. You also say "Neither have produced windfall profits..." That's what I am referring to.

If you got 12,000 per rai profit off of cassava, that's pretty good. Anyways, it's more than you'll get off of cane. Why wouldn't you stick with cassava, but on a larger scale? 85 rai at your stated profit is a million baht a year. If you've already produce 25 rai, you should be able to produce 85...add 85 to your 25 gives you 110 @12,000 per is 1.3 million per year.

Does cassava do that well? It's at least twice what you'll earn off of cane if you're not selling it directly to the mill. How are you selling your cassava? You harvest it and truck it yourself to a buy depot? Or to the factory? I know nothing about cassava.

[MarcIssan]

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

Not really..I am far away in the US and asided from the Euca, I pay little attention to the rest. This is actually more for my Thai family and whatever I make goes to them anyway. I think once I retire there I'll look into this more. I'm curious about the meaning of your post. What is the end result of sugan cane growing?

Marc

Hi.

In one of your posts you say that you also grow sugar cane and cassava. You also say "Neither have produced windfall profits..." That's what I am referring to.

If you got 12,000 per rai profit off of cassava, that's pretty good. Anyways, it's more than you'll get off of cane. Why wouldn't you stick with cassava, but on a larger scale? 85 rai at your stated profit is a million baht a year. If you've already produce 25 rai, you should be able to produce 85...add 85 to your 25 gives you 110 @12,000 per is 1.3 million per year.

Does cassava do that well? It's at least twice what you'll earn off of cane if you're not selling it directly to the mill. How are you selling your cassava? You harvest it and truck it yourself to a buy depot? Or to the factory? I know nothing about cassava.

Here's all I know. My brother in law joins with others in our area during harvest to increase the total tonnage. ..like a group effort of some sort. I guess they each haul their own crops and get paid separately and the distribution yard is less than 5 km from home but by having many deliver during the same period they wait less to dump each load. My BIL borrowed a truck from his uncle otherwise our tac-tac would have to make many many trips. During planting, if they join up with the same group, the distribution yard has a machine they can borrow that automates the planting once the rows are plowed and furrowed. I guess you have to have a certain number of rai to get to use the machine.

That's all I know. Except that on one 22 rai piece we only made 180,000 baht net. By the time I paid for my wife to travel there to deposit the money, then paid for her month there, we only saved about 4,000 baht. So the way I look at it, I paid my BIL which helped his family, my wife got a free month in Thailand, and all this didn't cost me anything. Kind of a break even year...better than a loss for sure.

Marc

[Canada]

I've seen sugarcane do just fine on a field that just had euca trees removed. But you already grow sugarcane so you know the end result of that.

Not really..I am far away in the US and asided from the Euca, I pay little attention to the rest. This is actually more for my Thai family and whatever I make goes to them anyway. I think once I retire there I'll look into this more. I'm curious about the meaning of your post. What is the end result of sugan cane growing?

Marc

Hi.

In one of your posts you say that you also grow sugar cane and cassava. You also say "Neither have produced windfall profits..." That's what I am referring to.

If you got 12,000 per rai profit off of cassava, that's pretty good. Anyways, it's more than you'll get off of cane. Why wouldn't you stick with cassava, but on a larger scale? 85 rai at your stated profit is a million baht a year. If you've already produce 25 rai, you should be able to produce 85...add 85 to your 25 gives you 110 @12,000 per is 1.3 million per year.

Does cassava do that well? It's at least twice what you'll earn off of cane if you're not selling it directly to the mill. How are you selling your cassava? You harvest it and truck it yourself to a buy depot? Or to the factory? I know nothing about cassava.

Here's all I know. My brother in law joins with others in our area during harvest to increase the total tonnage. ..like a group effort of some sort. I guess they each haul their own crops and get paid separately and the distribution yard is less than 5 km from home but by having many deliver during the same period they wait less to dump each load. My BIL borrowed a truck from his uncle otherwise our tac-tac would have to make many many trips. During planting, if they join up with the same group, the distribution yard has a machine they can borrow that automates the planting once the rows are plowed and furrowed. I guess you have to have a certain number of rai to get to use the machine.

That's all I know. Except that on one 22 rai piece we only made 180,000 baht net. By the time I paid for my wife to travel there to deposit the money, then paid for her month there, we only saved about 4,000 baht. So the way I look at it, I paid my BIL which helped his family, my wife got a free month in Thailand, and all this didn't cost me anything. Kind of a break even year...better than a loss for sure.

Marc

OK. That's not the same figures as what you posted earlier.

I've read the entire thread on cassava now so I now know a little more than I did.

[Issangeorge]

In my area no one is planting euc anymore, they are removing the stumps and planting cane, cassava, or rubber. The result of this is there are a lot less euc trees around. However there are still the pulp plants that need the trees to produce, thus my feeling is keep your trees, in five years when you are ready yo harvest the price may be quite high. Also remember each tree may way less, but each stump usually produces 4 trees so you will probably have 3 to 4 times as many trees and thus a greater weight.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[loong]

From post #3

Cassava shows some profit but since I pay for labor, fertilizer, fuel etc I think I made only about 300,000 baht net profit from 25 rai last year.

From post #14

That's all I know. Except that on one 22 rai piece we only made 180,000 baht net.

[MarcIssan]

From post #3

Cassava shows some profit but since I pay for labor, fertilizer, fuel etc I think I made only about 300,000 baht net profit from 25 rai last year.

From post #14

That's all I know. Except that on one 22 rai piece we only made 180,000 baht net.

Yes without recorcds, I am guessing. I know after paying my wife's travel from the USA and paying for her 5 weeks in Thailand, only about 4,000 baht made it into the bank...maybe 6000. You might say that was the cost of eduction to learn what to do and what not to do. I didn't expect to make any money and really don't need it as I still work. I figure I'll work it out once I get there full time.

Marc

[Issangeorge]

From post #3

Cassava shows some profit but since I pay for labor, fertilizer, fuel etc I think I made only about 300,000 baht net profit from 25 rai last year.

From post #14

That's all I know. Except that on one 22 rai piece we only made 180,000 baht net.

Yes without recorcds, I am guessing. I know after paying my wife's travel from the USA and paying for her 5 weeks in Thailand, only about 4,000 baht made it into the bank...maybe 6000. You might say that was the cost of eduction to learn what to do and what not to do. I didn't expect to make any money and really don't need it as I still work. I figure I'll work it out once I get there full time.

Marc

Wow that works out to ฿8,181per rai, I sure wish my wife could make that, she's lucky to break even.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kwonitoy]

I have 85 rai in Euca trees and because I don't have all the machinery to harvest and market the trees, I sold the crop standing last year for 1.2 million Baht. I think I gave away a bunch of profit but I am in America and the trees are in Udon so I made a quick deal and forgot about it.

Judging by my own experience in clearing 34 Rai of Euca myself you should count your profits on your land as a BIG win.

As you put it you don't have the machinery to harvest, the people required and your not on site. I've seen the contractors come in and work a large piece of Euca. There's multiple people with chainsaws, a front end loader, several semi truck trailers, and lots of ground workers. All this costs and the contractor by the end of the day isn't getting rich at it either. As with most things in Isan it's low low margin stuff.

The trouble with "calculator" farming is that while costs can be factored in and controlled in the USA, in Isan there always seems to be little hidden extras and last minute " Oh didn't you know that?"

Workers get say 300 baht per day, but also add in the food, ice, water, and transportation to and from work and it'll add 50%. Times 20-30 people for a big cut like 85 Rai

Chainsaws are a nightmare I wish I didn't know about. A large proper saw that will last will need a special permit. Small ones ( I bought two) will be junked by the end of the first day and declared " NO GOOD"

Trucks don't want to come untill they can get a full load or preferably several. This takes days of cutting and stock pileing.

Sell to the local gathering point and the price is less than at the end point. Those guys don't deal with 5 or 10 tons they want hundreds of tons at a time, and they're a long way south from Udon, now rather than small trucks you're looking at hiring semi trucks. Pay for truck rental, driver, driver's food, fuel for truck etc. lots of hidden costs.

What I calculated and what it cost were very far apart, it's like getting pecked to death by ducks.

I was at home in Isan and we were offered peanuts for the 34 rai and I figured I'd do it myself. Lots of hard work on my part and a lesson learned. Never again to touch anything to do with logging for me.

I bought the land not for the Euca, I bought it because the land was good for rubber, since planted and now 3 years old and looks good.

If I bought land with Euca ( not going to happen) on it and had to clear it for something else I would come it with a D6 dozer, pile it up and burn it.

You sold the first cut standing and that in my opinion is the best way.

Now for the second crop you should be fertilizing to get a decent return, from every cut stump you now have up to five new shoots growing, more growth means more food required, and more time. Second crop won't be ready as quickly as the first. Euca is a waiting game.

Just my experience with Eucalyptus, a noxious weed that grows tall.

Ken

[MarcIssan]

I have 85 rai in Euca trees and because I don't have all the machinery to harvest and market the trees, I sold the crop standing last year for 1.2 million Baht. I think I gave away a bunch of profit but I am in America and the trees are in Udon so I made a quick deal and forgot about it.

Judging by my own experience in clearing 34 Rai of Euca myself you should count your profits on your land as a BIG win.

As you put it you don't have the machinery to harvest, the people required and your not on site. I've seen the contractors come in and work a large piece of Euca. There's multiple people with chainsaws, a front end loader, several semi truck trailers, and lots of ground workers. All this costs and the contractor by the end of the day isn't getting rich at it either. As with most things in Isan it's low low margin stuff.

The trouble with "calculator" farming is that while costs can be factored in and controlled in the USA, in Isan there always seems to be little hidden extras and last minute " Oh didn't you know that?"

Workers get say 300 baht per day, but also add in the food, ice, water, and transportation to and from work and it'll add 50%. Times 20-30 people for a big cut like 85 Rai

Chainsaws are a nightmare I wish I didn't know about. A large proper saw that will last will need a special permit. Small ones ( I bought two) will be junked by the end of the first day and declared " NO GOOD"

Trucks don't want to come untill they can get a full load or preferably several. This takes days of cutting and stock pileing.

Sell to the local gathering point and the price is less than at the end point. Those guys don't deal with 5 or 10 tons they want hundreds of tons at a time, and they're a long way south from Udon, now rather than small trucks you're looking at hiring semi trucks. Pay for truck rental, driver, driver's food, fuel for truck etc. lots of hidden costs.

What I calculated and what it cost were very far apart, it's like getting pecked to death by ducks.

I was at home in Isan and we were offered peanuts for the 34 rai and I figured I'd do it myself. Lots of hard work on my part and a lesson learned. Never again to touch anything to do with logging for me.

I bought the land not for the Euca, I bought it because the land was good for rubber, since planted and now 3 years old and looks good.

If I bought land with Euca ( not going to happen) on it and had to clear it for something else I would come it with a D6 dozer, pile it up and burn it.

You sold the first cut standing and that in my opinion is the best way.

Now for the second crop you should be fertilizing to get a decent return, from every cut stump you now have up to five new shoots growing, more growth means more food required, and more time. Second crop won't be ready as quickly as the first. Euca is a waiting game.

Just my experience with Eucalyptus, a noxious weed that grows tall.

Ken

Ken, thanks for the informative reply. Now on to rubber. I have some other pieces of land that I wanted to put rubber in but the wife said rubber is down to 20 baht per kilo. Is there any way to verify the price from the USA? I am not sure how she found out or if her sources were spot on but if that is true, I cannot see how to make any money. Comments?

Marc

[kwonitoy]

Marc:

Back in 2005 I started planting rubber, now have 100 rai ranging in age from 3-9 years old.

Current price for cup rubber is the lowest in memory, selling today and expect 28 baht per kilo. Let you know tomorrow on exact price

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/727848-thai-govt-to-brace-for-79-billion-baht-loss-in-stockpiled-rubber-sales/

Link above for some bad news about rubber. The problem with subsidies from ANY government is that they are what seems like a good idea ( and quick and popular fix) at the time turn into a manyheaded beast that you can't kill, down the road.

It's hard to say what's down the road with any commodity and if you plant today you won't be selling any latex for 7 years, so dust off your crystal ball.

If you want to get into rubber, I have a established place for sale. Nothing to do with price of rubber, but a change in circumstances on my part.

Along with the rubber I've also come into fatherhood, I've now got a 3 year old boy I want to get into a proper school in Udon which requires a move into town.

Ken

[Jotham79]

I have 85 rai in Euca trees and because I don't have all the machinery to harvest and market the trees, I sold the crop standing last year for 1.2 million Baht. I think I gave away a bunch of profit but I am in America and the trees are in Udon so I made a quick deal and forgot about it.

Judging by my own experience in clearing 34 Rai of Euca myself you should count your profits on your land as a BIG win.

As you put it you don't have the machinery to harvest, the people required and your not on site. I've seen the contractors come in and work a large piece of Euca. There's multiple people with chainsaws, a front end loader, several semi truck trailers, and lots of ground workers. All this costs and the contractor by the end of the day isn't getting rich at it either. As with most things in Isan it's low low margin stuff.

The trouble with "calculator" farming is that while costs can be factored in and controlled in the USA, in Isan there always seems to be little hidden extras and last minute " Oh didn't you know that?"

Workers get say 300 baht per day, but also add in the food, ice, water, and transportation to and from work and it'll add 50%. Times 20-30 people for a big cut like 85 Rai

Chainsaws are a nightmare I wish I didn't know about. A large proper saw that will last will need a special permit. Small ones ( I bought two) will be junked by the end of the first day and declared " NO GOOD"

Trucks don't want to come untill they can get a full load or preferably several. This takes days of cutting and stock pileing.

Sell to the local gathering point and the price is less than at the end point. Those guys don't deal with 5 or 10 tons they want hundreds of tons at a time, and they're a long way south from Udon, now rather than small trucks you're looking at hiring semi trucks. Pay for truck rental, driver, driver's food, fuel for truck etc. lots of hidden costs.

What I calculated and what it cost were very far apart, it's like getting pecked to death by ducks.

I was at home in Isan and we were offered peanuts for the 34 rai and I figured I'd do it myself. Lots of hard work on my part and a lesson learned. Never again to touch anything to do with logging for me.

I bought the land not for the Euca, I bought it because the land was good for rubber, since planted and now 3 years old and looks good.

If I bought land with Euca ( not going to happen) on it and had to clear it for something else I would come it with a D6 dozer, pile it up and burn it.

You sold the first cut standing and that in my opinion is the best way.

Now for the second crop you should be fertilizing to get a decent return, from every cut stump you now have up to five new shoots growing, more growth means more food required, and more time. Second crop won't be ready as quickly as the first. Euca is a waiting game.

Just my experience with Eucalyptus, a noxious weed that grows tall.

Ken

I had a similar experience with teak and posted it a while back, things never go they way they do on the calculator. I do have a really good small chain saw that we use like crazy, it's a Stihl.

"it's like getting pecked to death by ducks" is exactly right!

[Canada]

I had a similar experience with teak and posted it a while back, things never go they way they do on the calculator. I do have a really good small chain saw that we use like crazy, it's a Stihl.

"it's like getting pecked to death by ducks" is exactly right!

Watch out for knockoff Stihls. Lots of them around. Managed to snag one myself. I should've known better. It was too cheap. I curse it every time I use it.