Foreign owner died after purchasing house/land in Thai partners name

[alfieconn]

the house and land is her's, probably as is any vehicles and bank accounts, so no inheritance tax to pay.

unless he has any bank accounts i would save the trip

But the land and house were bought with money (gift) given to her by the OP's friend so in theory there is inheritance tax to pay.

1. How would the British gov get the money from a Thai living in Thailand ?

2. Is this a way to avoid inheritance tax ? I.e. send all your money from the UK to your Thai wife in Thailand when your time is coming.

When a partner of a farang buys a property here, the farang signs a document stating that he did not buy the property and that the property is not "marital property".

My questions were from the UK aspect nothing to do with the Thai aspect.

[alfieconn]

The extra inheritance tax liability fallls upon the estate first not the recipient of the gift. It will be up to the executor of the will to sort out.

However it sounds like the deceased was not ordinarily resident in the UK for tax purposes and probate may not be applied for in the UK so the liability may not arise.

So if the owner sold up everything in England ( therefore not having an estate) and sent the money to his girlfriend.

How would the HMRC receive any taxes owed ?

[Evilbaz]

You may be well intentioned but you are very naive Thai-wise.

By the time you get here everything that is not in his Thai partner's name (excepting perhaps a reefer jacket and a faded tie or two) will be in the possession of his partner in her house on her land.

No UK authority will wrest back any Thai based assets.

As for any UK assets(?) that is the executors' duty - not yours.

Save your fares - unless you are interested in ...

[rak sa_ngop]

The extra inheritance tax liability fallls upon the estate first not the recipient of the gift. It will be up to the executor of the will to sort out.

However it sounds like the deceased was not ordinarily resident in the UK for tax purposes and probate may not be applied for in the UK so the liability may not arise.

I do not think residency is the issue here. It depends on your domicile status. It is far more difficult to establish non-domiciled status than it is to become non-resident. If you still maintain contacts with your country of birth i.e. UK you can still be considered domiciled in the UK and subject to UK inheritance tax.

[Canada]

I think "gift tax" and "inheritance tax" are criminal. What a load of crap that you can't give your loot to whoever you want without having to pay off the government for the pleasure of doing so.

[sustento]

The inheritance tax threshold stands at £325,000 at the moment so the deceased's estate would have to be worth more than 16 million baht before any tax was owed even if it were reclaimable by HMRC.

Edited May 15, 2014 by sustento

[rak sa_ngop]

I think "gift tax" and "inheritance tax" are criminal. What a load of crap that you can't give your loot to whoever you want without having to pay off the government for the pleasure of doing so.

You certainly can give your money to whomsoever you wish, but if you die within 7 years the gift (or part of the gift) is considered to be part of your estate.

I don't think there is a 'gift tax' as such anymore in the UK.

Don't blame the government if you die early!

[Strangebrew]

It is hers farang can't own land only house

[steven ber]

I love ThaiVisa, you have some amazing members, the assumptions made are on a world class level, still, I guess I never give my life story in the original question, nor my friend or his Thai partner's life stories.

First, I'm not a troll, well, not on my better days, a moderator will notice my IP has changed from the south of England to a place near Chiang Mai, and I now have the same IP as my friend, a former member of TV.

The first I heard of my friend's death was in a telephone call from his partner begging me to come and help, my friend had said, if problem, call steve, he'll help, I tried everything I could from the UK, but needed to go through my friend's paperwork to find details of his solicitor, or estate agent, i found the estate agents name, called them, and would you believe it, they no longer have the records of the sale (in late 2006), so don't have the name of the solicitor.

I dealt with my friend's UK paperwork for many years in the UK, but a house fire a couple of years ago destroyed it all, I was hopping to find more useful stuff here, but have been through everything, and running out of ideas.

I'm now looking at ways of vastly reducing the Thai partner's outgoings, they have seriously big medication costs (B20,000 per month) and WILL die without the medication, but at the moment, I still am unaware if any authorities have contacted my friends solicitor to start the process of dealing with the Will, I also found out the details of the only other friends I hadn't located and contacted them, none are aware of the Will and none are to be the executor, this only leaves the solicitor to be holding the Will and acting as executor.

It's a mess, and so unlike my friend to leave it this way, his death was unexpected and sudden.

OK, another day, another opportunity to think of something that could help sort out this mess.

Thanks to everyone who helped, the property and land value isn't high enough to attract any interest from the UK, and nobody will be challenging any part of the Will, so as long as we find the Will, everything should be OK.

[harrry]

I love ThaiVisa, you have some amazing members, the assumptions made are on a world class level, still, I guess I never give my life story in the original question, nor my friend or his Thai partner's life stories.

First, I'm not a troll, well, not on my better days, a moderator will notice my IP has changed from the south of England to a place near Chiang Mai, and I now have the same IP as my friend, a former member of TV.

The first I heard of my friend's death was in a telephone call from his partner begging me to come and help, my friend had said, if problem, call steve, he'll help, I tried everything I could from the UK, but needed to go through my friend's paperwork to find details of his solicitor, or estate agent, i found the estate agents name, called them, and would you believe it, they no longer have the records of the sale (in late 2006), so don't have the name of the solicitor.

I dealt with my friend's UK paperwork for many years in the UK, but a house fire a couple of years ago destroyed it all, I was hopping to find more useful stuff here, but have been through everything, and running out of ideas.

I'm now looking at ways of vastly reducing the Thai partner's outgoings, they have seriously big medication costs (B20,000 per month) and WILL die without the medication, but at the moment, I still am unaware if any authorities have contacted my friends solicitor to start the process of dealing with the Will, I also found out the details of the only other friends I hadn't located and contacted them, none are aware of the Will and none are to be the executor, this only leaves the solicitor to be holding the Will and acting as executor.

It's a mess, and so unlike my friend to leave it this way, his death was unexpected and sudden.

OK, another day, another opportunity to think of something that could help sort out this mess.

Thanks to everyone who helped, the property and land value isn't high enough to attract any interest from the UK, and nobody will be challenging any part of the Will, so as long as we find the Will, everything should be OK.

Steve,

UK law does not apply to the assets here.

THe house and land are hers allready and are registered as such at the Land Department covering the land. She should have the chanote though it is possible to have a replacement if this cannot be found though the process is difficult.

Medication can be obtained free if it needed by getting treatment at the public hospital in the area where she is registed as living. It will cost her 30 baht a time.

The assets in the UK are the ones which will give the problem. In blocking all accounts you have made this more difficult.

It is not the job of the police to contact the solicitor.

You have not told us if his body has been released for funeral too and if so to who. If it was to her partner this will be a recognition that the authorities recognise her as the executor at least for thai assets.

Edited May 18, 2014 by harrry

[steven ber]

Thanks for the helpful reply Harry.

The medication is expensive American stuff, I'm going to get the names of each drug and do some research, the Thai partner is HIV positive, though my friend wasn't.

The Thai partner tried to call me when my friend died, but was calling the wrong number and got no reply, so went to the consulate and asked what to do with the body, the consulate said to wait, then they contacted the Embassy in the UK, they attempted to contact family, then after 1 week, they decided they couldn't find family and advised Thai partner to do what they think best, so my friend had a very nice cremation at the local temple, the Thai partner then went through my friends paperwork and called every number looking for me.

I thought I was doing the right thing when I closed the accounts, and it was a way for me to see if the banks or pension companies were holding the Will, I've never had to do this kind of thing before and was/still am very confused by the whole process.

I have no idea who tells who anything after an English farang dies in Thailand, or if, when or how the process starts to find his Will or solicitor in the UK, for all I know, the solicitor may have already been contacted, and if they're the executor, they could have already started trying to sort out the Will.

Equally, there may be no attempt made to locate the solicitor or the Will, none of my friend's family or friends have been contacted, and had I not received a call from his Thai partner, none of us would even know he passed away.

Could it be that the Thai authorities (and UK authorities) could be given all assets without any attempt to find a Will or solicitor?

If this were to be the case, surely this should concern many expats (though I'm sure most have their Wills completely sorted out).

I'll be first in the queue at the Thai consulate in Chiang Mai tomorrow and they may provide some answers, though I'm not holding my breath.

[JohnC]

My understanding from a recent presentation I attended is that a Thai will has to be registered at your local Amphur so it might be worth checking there ( with his Thai partner with you)

[steven ber]

Excellent John, just the kind of useful information I need, I'll talk to Thai partner immediately about this.

Thanks John.

[steven ber]

Thai partner says Ian (my friend) couldn't visit local Amphur on his own as Amphur doesn't speak English (and Ian spoke only a few words of Thai), and that he never took Ian to see local Amphur.

They used a Thai solicitor at the time whey purchased house and land in Thailand, Thai partner says Ian never went to see Thai solicitor on his own and never mentioned a Will in any of their visits, he also says I can speak with Thai solicitor tomorrow.

So it seems very unlikely that Ian had a Will (or Thai copy of English Will) in Thailand.

[meatboy]

Hmmmmmmm, with friends like you he wouldn't have needed many enemies.

You are not related to him, his Thai partner has not requested your help.

If I were her I would invite you to mind your own business.

If I were her I would suspect your motives.

Outrageous that you had his accounts frozen and pension stopped.

I think AOA this is some worm crawling out of the woodwork,he says he has been a fantastic friend for 32yrs.yet he doesn't know anything about his private life in Thailand and yet this person has lived with his thai-partner for 10yrs.the op says he his coming to Thailand to sort out everything fat chance he will have and needs to keep his nose out,i am sure his thai-partner will be able to get it sorted and she WILL know about everything she needs to know regarding his assets in Thailand.lets hope she has friends that can if it happens keep this gravy grabber at bay.

[billd766]

Hmmmmmmm, with friends like you he wouldn't have needed many enemies.

You are not related to him, his Thai partner has not requested your help.

If I were her I would invite you to mind your own business.

If I were her I would suspect your motives.

Outrageous that you had his accounts frozen and pension stopped.

How did you legally have his bank accounts and pension stopped considering that you are NOT part of his family.

How do you think he would feel when YOU decided to do that.

He had a Thai partner who must have been far more important to him than you yet you seem to think you have far more rights than her.

[ttthailand]

I have read over all the comments and my thinking goes like this... The house belongs 100% to his Thai Girlfriend, nothing can to taken by Thai or UK government or family. More than likely your friend lived here and was happy thus all his personal belonging should be given to his gf unless he has children and perhaps some should go to them. Your friend lived with this lady for many years. Any money in the UK I would think should perhaps be decided among family including his gf in Thailand. I am sure that would be his wish !!!

I am not sure why you are coming but don't make a fuss over something that you can't control. Thailand is not the UK and UK laws mean nothing here. Nothing here that is with his gf will ever go back to the UK unless she wants it to... So be nice and understand!!! She lost her partner and her means of support so this is very difficult time for her ! If you were my friend handling this for me I would want you to find as many ways possible to have financial support for my loving partner. Give don't try to take !

[ttthailand]

Your title is also incorrect. Your friend never owned the house or land.... She always did and still does !!!

[ttthailand]

If you think that his death was fishy then that should be investigated...

[steven ber]

I'm astonished at some of the replies and ask people not to judge by your own standards.

The Thai partner is actually a 45 year old man, I didn't say that earlier because I want useful replies without prejudice.

The Thai partner begged me to come to Thailand to help him because he didn't know what to do and Ian had told him that I would help and make sure he was OK.

I know exactly what ian had in each bank account, and the value of his shares and other financial arrangements, as I said earlier, I handled his paperwork in the UK.

I know exactly how he wanted his assets shared out, with the vast majority going to the Thai partner, and I will do everything in my power to make sure his last wishes are granted, and the Thai partner gets everything ian wanted him to have.

But knowing isn't enough, without the Will, the Thai partner gets nothing, or should I say a BIG FAT NOTHING (it'll be interesting to see if the replies about 'Thai girl getting everything' change now it's a Thai man)

Under Thai law, as well as English law, everything goes to Ian's family as he was not married and had no children, the Thai partner will keep the house, land and car as all were purchased in his own name, but because of medication costs, he'd be forced to sell the land (it's also the land the Thai partner's mother's house is on) and the house, and even the funds raised from the sales wouldn't keep him going for ever.

I don't know who Ian's solicitor is, I can't find any paperwork (in UK or Thailand) that could lead to the solicitor.

I'm not sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, I'm actually trying to help and have only 4 working days remaining until I need to fly home for work, so I'm trying everything I can think of to get leads, and I freely admit, I'm out of my depth here, this was a bolt out of the blue and I had to choose between jumping right in or making a few inquiries and saying that I'd done all I could, I know Ian would have stopped at nothing to help me, and has done in the past, so now it's payback time.

As I said earlier, don't judge others by your own standards, your posts help other members judge your overall character and can come back to haunt you if ever you need serious help on a forum.

[meatboy]

only trying to help "WHO"

4days left before you go home to work,ARE YOU A DIGGER.

[ttthailand]

So what help are you exactly asking ?

The house and everything in his friends name belongs to his friend. You say you already know his wishes so do it ! The Thai friend, man or lady was his partner so try to provide what you can for them. A will may or may not have been written.

Cross the Ts and dot to Is and your job is done.

People on TV including myself sometimes feel that people who do not live here can sometimes think that a person's life here and their family does not equal the same as in their home country... not the case. Our partners here do matter and they should be respected and not taken advantage of. Based on your topic title you shown little knowledge on Thailand and appeared as thou you were looking to claim ownership of the house and somehow pay taxes ??? I think all responses are the same ....

[ttthailand]

If you understand that everything here already belongs to his boyfriend and you are looking for a will so you have a legal footing in the UK to assist his boyfriend you should have said that in the first place. You come off as someone perhaps family trying to make claim to possible assets in Thailand.

If you are truly trying to help your friend and his TRUE wishes then good for you and I hope you can. Try explaining to the boyfriend that everything he has now belongs to him but if you can find the Will perhaps he can receive even more money. The Thai boyfriend might be holding back some information as he does not fully trust you... maybe ... maybe not.

[ttthailand]

One additional thing.... Perhaps your friend does have assets in Thailand. Does he own a condo? It is possible to own a condo but not land. He could also own 49% of a business and 100% of a car.

[steven ber]

Meatboy, how can I be helping myself, what's in the Will IS ALREADY in the Will, there's nothing I can do to change that, and absolutely wouldn't want to change it, but it still remains, if no will found, Thai partner gets nothing, at least there's only 1 'i' to dot and 1 't' to cross in nothing.

ttthailand, I don't claim to know much about Thailand or it's laws, that's why I ask questions on this forum, I agree the title of the thread isn't perfect, I wanted to get people's attention, and wanted to learn as much as I could before I went to Thailand, and I had extremely limited time, I now understand from this thread that the land and property in Thailand can't be touched by the authorities, and that if some official tries to tell me or the Thai partner something different, then I know they could be up to no good.

And that's the point of such forums, to get some brief advice that may be useful before setting off to Thailand.

I feel silly having to say this, my efforts to help this Thai man should show that I respect any relationship and lifestyle choice, I actually helped Ian make his mind up to sell his house in the UK and move to Thailand, he was worried about the friends he was leaving behind, but I knew he'd be happy in Thailand and he'd worked all his life and deserved a happy retirement.

Edited May 18, 2014 by steven ber

[steven ber]

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If you understand that everything here already belongs to his boyfriend and you are looking for a will so you have a legal footing in the UK to assist his boyfriend you should have said that in the first place. You come off as someone perhaps family trying to make claim to possible assets in Thailand.
If you are truly trying to help your friend and his TRUE wishes then good for you and I hope you can. Try explaining to the boyfriend that everything he has now belongs to him but if you can find the Will perhaps he can receive even more money. The Thai boyfriend might be holding back some information as he does not fully trust you... maybe ... maybe not.

I understand what you're saying, the thread just seemed to change as it went along.

I also get your point about a family member, but surely the family's interests would be best served by keeping quiet and trying to get the UK (and/or) Thai authorities to believe that there is no Will.

The thread was started as a way to find out if the family would have any claim on the property or if the Thai partner would be liable for any tax, I had never met him before, as you'll see from my other posts I was banned from Thailand for 10 years after being charged and jailed for visa overstay, Ian was always a good judge of character (and now I've met the Thai man I think he's a great guy who'd choose Ian over the money every time, he's just concerned about his medication till the Will is sorted out), but I was concerned that he didn't realise the serious position he was in if no Will was found, so I wanted to gather as much info as I could and give it to him straight when I first met him, he needed to understand fully that we needed to find leads to find Ian's solicitor.

He trusts me, Ian always told him to contact me and nobody else if anything happened, he is also aware that he keeps the land, property and car no matter what, he's also now aware of the consequences if no will found, he's just very worried he'll have to sell up to pay for his medication, he actually works for a living in a shop that he owns (did before he met Ian), but that only pays for day to day expenses and could never cover the cost of the medication.

One additional thing.... Perhaps your friend does have assets in Thailand. Does he own a condo? It is possible to own a condo but not land. He could also own 49% of a business and 100% of a car.

No condo, no business, and car in Thai Partner's name.

[IBoldnewguy]

Perhaps, Ian, being of sound mind spent and gave it all away before he died.... if not, he certainly knew how to keep his assets private if not well hidden....

Sort of like J. Paul Getty who promised his mistresses that they would be taken care of for life.... but he seemed to have meant his life not necessarily their life....

Dispite all the second guessing.... Ian did not leave a will (so far) nor a clue to his intentions.... he may have become forgetful later in life.... but there must have been a time when he was not.... but evidently no clues there either....

Interesting and confusing thread.... I ended up admiring the deceased.... RIP

[meatboy]

So what help are you exactly asking ?

The house and everything in his friends name belongs to his friend. You say you already know his wishes so do it ! The Thai friend, man or lady was his partner so try to provide what you can for them. A will may or may not have been written.

Cross the Ts and dot to Is and your job is done.

People on TV including myself sometimes feel that people who do not live here can sometimes think that a person's life here and their family does not equal the same as in their home country... not the case. Our partners here do matter and they should be respected and not taken advantage of. Based on your topic title you shown little knowledge on Thailand and appeared as thou you were looking to claim ownership of the house and somehow pay taxes ??? I think all responses are the same ....

reading along the lines,every time the op has been asked did he do this and that he comes up with,cant speak thai,too ill to go,and his partner done it ect.ect.ect. if as the op.says he has been his close friend could he have been a spurned partner

who maybe wants his share.

[apiwan]

Being from the UK myself.

I can understand there are many sound guys who would do this for a friend.

However your story has more twists and turns than the back alleys in klong toey.

I feel you want to prove the house was bought with his money .

And also feel you can take it back .

Also now you mention you know where all his money is kept and which banks.

You make out your naive to Thailand and it's laws and ways.

This I do not believe .

There is more to this story than your letting on.

I do hope I'm wrong.

Wether his partner is male or female is not important.

If Ian decided to be with him. And don't have any close family in the UK.

Then all assets should go to his partner. Irellevent if he's thai .male.

Don't mess with the dead.

It'll come back and haunt you one day

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Mrjlh]

Suggestion Steven...once you arrive, secure the services of a Thai Lawyer, whether it be a new one or the one your friend used. Then expect to be here for several months. Be prepared for a long wait. Things move very slowly in Thailand. No one on this board can give you legal advice anyway. They don't have a work permit! But they do know from experience what they have been trying to tell you from the start. I don't need to repeat it all. It will be up to his partner to fight the legal system on his own. Thai authorities will entertain you as his friend but have no obligation to help you unless you have a certified document stating so. Just be prepared for a cold shoulder and a non response. Nice that you are trying to help your friend. Good luck.