These stories of Thai girlfriends asking for money are funny.

[ppmacready]

Stephenterry ! Your remark is really rude and stupid.

Compare what is comparable...all farangs an't fat and young farangs are very beautiful..

But of course, if you are attracted to girls who look like kids, that is your taste...

so little girls who do not understand or even give a dam about what you say or feel can be attractive to some...

buy little girls candy to make them nice to you?

Even if you are not old, sound like Granpa to me.

But these little girls know this game very well...old daddy can be generous....look around, most of these guys would not have a chance with young girls in faranglands.

You can upkeep pretty girls everywhere, is it not a kind of prostitution? No need to come to Thailand for that, but maybe Thailand is cheaper?

Treating women , Farangs and Thais like merchandise does not make you an interesting person. Thai girls are for you, they do not give a dam and I do not blame them.

She has a point.

I prefer to pay as I go.

Nowadays the Filipinos are far better value.

They are more intelligent.

Speak good English.

There morals, integrity, bubbly personality, genuine warmth and logic, by far beat the Thais hands down.

Go on a Thai forum and the guys are 80% negative about there Thai girl friend experiences.

Go on a Pino forum and the guys are 80% positive.

And of course, poverty is a wonderful aphrodisiac!

Really?? My American friend--whose taste runs more the Filipinas than Thai for language reasons--has been ripped off by so many Filipinas that I (and he) have lost count. It's become a bit of a joke between us at this point. What I like about the Thais is that they have a sense of humour ... they not only laugh, but they try to make you laugh. I've known many Filipinas, and most of them are quite passive in social interactions: the man cracks the jokes and they do the laughing (if they get it, which they often don't). Thais like to joke and they like word play. And while Filipinas may have better English, I find a lot still goes over their heads. A few years back, as an informal 'test' of sorts, I used to ask Filipinas if they knew who Osama Bin Laden was. Many did not! Never a met a Thai who was clueless about Osama. I suggest you try this test on your Filipina (btw, if you are referring to women only, you should not write 'filipino')... you may be in for a surprise....

My friend also has the misfortune to hook up with ''special'' girls.

Goes ape shit when I suggest there ''resting'' whores.

When guys ask me for advice re Fillipina ( thank you)or Thai girls.

I always ask, were you a doormat in UK?

If they mumble a reply.

I assure them, they will be a door mat here in Asia too!

[CMCMANGOMAN]

My dad is 82 years old and his thai lady friend that lives with him in Bangkok is 50 something. She used to be a lawyer down in Phuket before she met dad. Personally, my thai wife and I do not like her. Dad gives her a allowance of 35,000 baht per month. Plus she owns a messanger service in Bangkok that makes a lot of money. Her main client is Kingpower at swampy but she has hundreds of others. My dad has asked her for an accounting of where she spends the 35k per month and she refuses to even discuss it with him. Honestly, dad is not getting it up anymore and Cialis won't help. We thought it might be the companionship that he enjoys but she's out most nights till late. Gets home between 10 pm to 2 am. She wakes up around 11 am. I told dad she was taking the piss and he gets testy with me and defends her so he won't lose face. What should I do to get my pops to ditch this old money grubbing thai hag. I can see that dad is not really happy and he does not get out much any more. He used to be such a stud back in the day...very sad.

[dotpoom]

Reminds me of that great movie with Sophia Loren and the 4 GI's (one was Telly Savalas) who each thought they were the father of her baby but didn't know about each other. I think in the end as they discover about each other's existence they agreed to not find out who the real father was but just all be the father together.....still....one by one they each came back and told her that she must know that he is most lightly the real father and guessed that she was just being polite in not telling the others.

I once went into an internet shop and sat at a computer that a lady had just left, she forgot to sign out. I read her last email where the guy was apologizing for not being able to come on holiday this year because he had sent all his spare money to her...there were other Farang names in her contacts so I wrote to that man and the others, explained who I was and and told them the story. "Up to them" as they say here what they did with the info.

[Thaiberius]

As a rough guess I'd say 25% of guys in this forum send money to a girl or ladyboy in order to make their lives a little easier. It has always happened and always will do. I have been tempted to send money on occasion but come to my senses when I remember there are probably another half a dozen being asked the same question at the same time as me.

The most honest and bizarre request I ever got was from a girl who worked at Morning Night on Soi 4, Nana in Bangkok. It was a significant amount. I received a call in the UK saying she was going to lose her job because a customer had reported her to the mamasan for stealing money from his room. She gibbered on for ages saying she would lose her job unless the money was paid back. She asked to borrow noney from me and I said no but did ask her to be honest and tell me if she did steal it. Without a second thought she replied she had stolen the money.

She lost her job and got a job on Soi Cowboy. Some six months later she returned to her old job at Morning Night. Only in Thailand.

[Mudcrab]

The point being you can find good women anywhere but in the end you still pay one way other the other, If they make you happy and you do same for them then all good. But just don't kid yourself in to thinking at 50+ and butt ugly your a stud muffin because if that were the case you wouldn't have left home in the first place. Thus reason for bag over my head

Seems like most of use have forgotten they paid or shared expenses (another form of paying) with their ex wives/gf in the home country as well.

P*ssy is for free when both partners between 12-20 after that you pay.... one way or another

Know a few farang that found a nice lady in he bar scene as well.... nothing is impossible... but cash is power...

Are you for real...12 years old??????

[LaraC]

Its really the older guys or big age differences where this is an sort of norm. I know plenty of young farang guys with similarly aged Thai gf's...and no, they don't offer money.

I know something that I'd rather upkeep a sexy thai girl than a fat farang wife...

Ahh...so your one of "those" guys..where your options are limited.

Nowt wrong with choosing a Thai partner..but I find it comical when I read guys posts where fat farang chicks were their only options rather than attractive farang girls.

[Lucifer]

Slightly on a tangent, I remember when I first met her she wanted to go swimming in the hotel pool, but didn't have a swimming costume. She knew a shop, not far away and I bought her a bikini. Only 2500 baht. Such a nice a kind person that she is, that on the way back to the hotel, she went straight back to the shop to thank the owner. I love her I do.

2500 bt for a bikini? Dude, you were ripped.

Go into the tourist shops and they are around 300 bt BEFORE you talk them down.

Bless you. Just re-read the bits I've highlighted. Maybe it'll make more sense.

[snpschaffer]

Does anyone have any comments about Thai men with farang women? Just curious what you people have to say.

Edited May 23, 2014 by snpschaffer

[ppmacready]

The point being you can find good women anywhere but in the end you still pay one way other the other, If they make you happy and you do same for them then all good. But just don't kid yourself in to thinking at 50+ and butt ugly your a stud muffin because if that were the case you wouldn't have left home in the first place. Thus reason for bag over my head

Seems like most of use have forgotten they paid or shared expenses (another form of paying) with their ex wives/gf in the home country as well.

P*ssy is for free when both partners between 12-20 after that you pay.... one way or another

Know a few farang that found a nice lady in he bar scene as well.... nothing is impossible... but cash is power...

Are you for real...12 years old??????

A muslim?

[ppmacready]

Does anyone have any comments about Thai men with farang women? Just curious what you people have to say.

Same deal for them.

Even the Thai girls support the Thai men!

[JetsetBkk]

Heard Singapore married guy hooked up with a girl most probably from a coyote club. Got her condo to stay and a BMW plus nice monthly allowance. Came visit one day unannounced, open the door and behold, a man clad in towel in bedroom with GF. Fight and stabbed the guy to death and escape. Now the GF left with no house, no BMW and no allowance.

Som nam naa.

[Thaiberius]

I am thinking of offering a service where I fully check out a TG before farangs make a decision to buy or not.

You are way behind the times - these companies already exist. However its good to see the most boring thread on here has kicked off again with amazing regularity !

Can I get this right - so no woman in the West has even two-timed, three timed etc a guy right ? So whats the point of this thread ? You have to go with your gut instinct and if you're not happy dig further - its not difficult for anyone with average intelligence to find out.

If you think you're being played just ask for a copy of their bank account - they won't be sending cash from abroad will they. But then I guess the conspiracists will claim they have seperate bank accounts ? Send a mate out to try and get her out of the bar etc etc.

However just to slightly re-address the anti-thai bias on here I know of 3 successful marriages to girls that previously worked in bars - 2 of 6 years and 1 of 10 years - happier than most UK marriages I know.

If you think women scamming men is exclusive to Thai women then you've all got a LOT to learn !

I think your theory about the ways to extract money is far too simplistic. You are correct in saying this goes on all over the world but where I think Thai girls differ is their sheer audacity and lack of conscience. There is nearly always a plan with multiple victims who are all ripe for the picking. I truly don't think there is any other nationality that can match Thai's for brazen untruths. Add to this the, at times, heart-wrenching stories and no wonder the

foreigner often caves in.

You mention you know a number of happy marriages between farangs and bargirls and my best wishes to them. However I know in excess of 30 or 40 farang/Thai marriages and I can count using the fingers of one hand the successful ones. (At least outwardly)

What we don't really take into consideration are the vast cultural and social differences between Thai's and westerners. The economic differences are huge, there are thousands of miles between the different cultures and we think we can overcome these huge differences in a couple of visits a year. It takes determination, tolerance and not a little forgiveness to overcome these problems. Also throw into the mix the occupation of some of these girls and the potential problems are huge. Anybody who can make a success of a relationship have my admiration and respect. Having said that no matter how beautiful the lady and how in love they may be, wild horses wouldn't drag me to the altar.

[captspectre]

My wife has a friend,who has 4 guys on the go at any one time,one bloke got her a credit card,she rakes in about 100,000 a month of course all the fools think they are the only one's,i have met a couple of them,it hard not to laugh when they tell you how much they love her and what a good girl she is.

if you want to see them in action, go to an internet cafe, preferably on soi four and watch them gather around the computer and write their "charlie tuna" boy friends! they all sit around the computer and advise each other. there is no shortage of gullible men who believe anything a female tell them!

[captspectre]

Most of you commenting here (especially OP) are tossers too (USA=Jerk offs).

Same as the tossers that throw money at the girls.

Very, very arrogant and very, very sad !

This can only be a comment from you Mona John!

Friday nights, me and the missus go rent a girl from a bar, throw money at her and party all night long.( you know me!)

Not had a sad Friday night for 2 years!

what's a tosser you maggot?

[Emster23]

"When I leave she heads straight to her village.. I know, coz when I call her I can hear chickens in the background.

Also, she looks after hearself very well, coz when I call her middle of the night, she's usually in the bathroom. I love her I do."

Go to Thai markets. Look for "chicken noise making toy", about 300 baht, good investment for the girls. Red flag is "she's usually in the bathroom". Bladder problem? Or privacy from "sleep over"?

[tomyumchai]

and as for the 'checking girls out for people', ive done that for 4 separate friends now. all of them are now ex-friends as they didnt like what i told them, 1 married 1 after 20 days and is now stuck back in his own country, broke as everything he earns goes to a maintain a shack in kalasin for her and her 'cousin'. another 1 spent his life savings on something that was worth a months wages,so fell out with me when i told him so, 1 tried to beat me to death on phi phi when i proved the brother wasnt the brother after all and the last 1 lost the plot after finding out that id had a go on her first......before he met her. she said he was her 'first' farang.

ive got 1 good mate left now and hes marrying 1 after 2 weeks together, im saying nowt as i get bored drinking on my own........

[star kicker]

never paid for some one to be my friend/gf and never will pay.

why pay for something that is available free?

if gasoline was available free would you pay for it?

i've dated some wonder thai ladies and had some amazing times with thai girls who dont want or expect financial compensation for spending time with me.

i have friends who pay and i tell them they are idiots but they keep doing it and continue to be disrespected and let down by their female companions in a way that i never am.

oh yes, and i have had fun with girls happy to treat me and spend the money sent to them by guys.

i love it when i'm doing the business with the lady and their 'bf' calls and they have to take the call, sweet talking the guy while i'm banging away!

thanks lads!

[Thaiberius]

i love it when i'm doing the business with the lady and their 'bf' calls and they have to take the call, sweet talking the guy while i'm banging away!

thanks lads!

No offence but you clearly have issues.

[Old Stud]

I am thinking of offering a service where I fully check out a TG before farangs make a decision to buy or not.

You are way behind the times - these companies already exist. However its good to see the most boring thread on here has kicked off again with amazing regularity !

Can I get this right - so no woman in the West has even two-timed, three timed etc a guy right ? So whats the point of this thread ? You have to go with your gut instinct and if you're not happy dig further - its not difficult for anyone with average intelligence to find out.

If you think you're being played just ask for a copy of their bank account - they won't be sending cash from abroad will they. But then I guess the conspiracists will claim they have seperate bank accounts ? Send a mate out to try and get her out of the bar etc etc.

However just to slightly re-address the anti-thai bias on here I know of 3 successful marriages to girls that previously worked in bars - 2 of 6 years and 1 of 10 years - happier than most UK marriages I know.

If you think women scamming men is exclusive to Thai women then you've all got a LOT to learn !

I think your theory about the ways to extract money is far too simplistic. You are correct in saying this goes on all over the world but where I think Thai girls differ is their sheer audacity and lack of conscience. There is nearly always a plan with multiple victims who are all ripe for the picking. I truly don't think there is any other nationality that can match Thai's for brazen untruths. Add to this the, at times, heart-wrenching stories and no wonder the

foreigner often caves in.

You mention you know a number of happy marriages between farangs and bargirls and my best wishes to them. However I know in excess of 30 or 40 farang/Thai marriages and I can count using the fingers of one hand the successful ones. (At least outwardly)

What we don't really take into consideration are the vast cultural and social differences between Thai's and westerners. The economic differences are huge, there are thousands of miles between the different cultures and we think we can overcome these huge differences in a couple of visits a year. It takes determination, tolerance and not a little forgiveness to overcome these problems. Also throw into the mix the occupation of some of these girls and the potential problems are huge. Anybody who can make a success of a relationship have my admiration and respect. Having said that no matter how beautiful the lady and how in love they may be, wild horses wouldn't drag me to the altar.

Before I moved to Thailand in 2011, I lived in Kauai, Hawaii and sold art to tourists. I set up for years in a place called the Kauai Products fair. In the last years it was taken over by Thai girls selling Thai souvenirs. They were bored so their farang husbands set them up in business. I got to know at least ten of these gals. They were all ex-bar girls who married the rich farang and won the lottery - a free trip and life in America.

Every one of them was unhappy. They missed their family. They missed Thailand and all were saving for the big escape. And the husbands were miserable. A lot of these girls not only quit the bar scene, they quit what they did there to make a living. Farang marries hot bar girl - got new job now, no more boom-boom. They all thought their husbands were pigs. Sad all the way around.

This is the education I got before I even arrived in Thailand. Guess what I learned after about 40 bar girls? Thaiberius is right. A professional bar girl is f - ing smart when it comes to manipulation and getting your baht. I'm not judging their profession to be wrong. I had some of the best times of my life with Pattaya bar girls . . . but anyone who doesn't see that they are "working girls" trying to make as much money as they possibly can before they reach 30, is delusional. Sending them money is part of the manipulation and delusion.

btw - I met a bar girl in Bangkok. The next year I visited her in Isaan. She had a modern house, an SUV and a new pick-up. All of it was paid for by her Aussie sugar-daddy. He also paid her a lot of money every month to stay home in Isaan, for the last four year. As I said, I met this gal - she was wearing #43 or something like that, in Bangkok. You can't keep the girl back on the farm after she's seen Paree.

[ppmacready]

"When I leave she heads straight to her village.. I know, coz when I call her I can hear chickens in the background.

Also, she looks after hearself very well, coz when I call her middle of the night, she's usually in the bathroom. I love her I do."

Go to Thai markets. Look for "chicken noise making toy", about 300 baht, good investment for the girls. Red flag is "she's usually in the bathroom". Bladder problem? Or privacy from "sleep over"?

The door mat types should be able to know where their ''resting'' working girls are, by the GPS on the girls fancy mobiles they are so stupid to buy.

But always except the excuses the girls give as why its been switched of!

No work baby.Lost mobile baby.I drop it baby, etc etc etc

One German guy I know bought 3 mobiles.

Paid a non existing hospital bill of 80K. Which I thought he wouldn't possibly pay , but he did!

And was supporting her with around 40K a month. Whilst she came round to <deleted> me, EVEN when he was here on holiday.

I'm no longer surprised at the girls ingenuity.

Or the guys stupidity!

[ppmacready]

I am thinking of offering a service where I fully check out a TG before farangs make a decision to buy or not.

You are way behind the times - these companies already exist. However its good to see the most boring thread on here has kicked off again with amazing regularity !

Can I get this right - so no woman in the West has even two-timed, three timed etc a guy right ? So whats the point of this thread ? You have to go with your gut instinct and if you're not happy dig further - its not difficult for anyone with average intelligence to find out.

If you think you're being played just ask for a copy of their bank account - they won't be sending cash from abroad will they. But then I guess the conspiracists will claim they have seperate bank accounts ? Send a mate out to try and get her out of the bar etc etc.

However just to slightly re-address the anti-thai bias on here I know of 3 successful marriages to girls that previously worked in bars - 2 of 6 years and 1 of 10 years - happier than most UK marriages I know.

If you think women scamming men is exclusive to Thai women then you've all got a LOT to learn !

I think your theory about the ways to extract money is far too simplistic. You are correct in saying this goes on all over the world but where I think Thai girls differ is their sheer audacity and lack of conscience. There is nearly always a plan with multiple victims who are all ripe for the picking. I truly don't think there is any other nationality that can match Thai's for brazen untruths. Add to this the, at times, heart-wrenching stories and no wonder the

foreigner often caves in.

You mention you know a number of happy marriages between farangs and bargirls and my best wishes to them. However I know in excess of 30 or 40 farang/Thai marriages and I can count using the fingers of one hand the successful ones. (At least outwardly)

What we don't really take into consideration are the vast cultural and social differences between Thai's and westerners. The economic differences are huge, there are thousands of miles between the different cultures and we think we can overcome these huge differences in a couple of visits a year. It takes determination, tolerance and not a little forgiveness to overcome these problems. Also throw into the mix the occupation of some of these girls and the potential problems are huge. Anybody who can make a success of a relationship have my admiration and respect. Having said that no matter how beautiful the lady and how in love they may be, wild horses wouldn't drag me to the altar.

Before I moved to Thailand in 2011, I lived in Kauai, Hawaii and sold art to tourists. I set up for years in a place called the Kauai Products fair. In the last years it was taken over by Thai girls selling Thai souvenirs. They were bored so their farang husbands set them up in business. I got to know at least ten of these gals. They were all ex-bar girls who married the rich farang and won the lottery - a free trip and life in America.

Every one of them was unhappy. They missed their family. They missed Thailand and all were saving for the big escape. And the husbands were miserable. A lot of these girls not only quit the bar scene, they quit what they did there to make a living. Farang marries hot bar girl - got new job now, no more boom-boom. They all thought their husbands were pigs. Sad all the way around.

This is the education I got before I even arrived in Thailand. Guess what I learned after about 40 bar girls? Thaiberius is right. A professional bar girl is f - ing smart when it comes to manipulation and getting your baht. I'm not judging their profession to be wrong. I had some of the best times of my life with Pattaya bar girls . . . but anyone who doesn't see that they are "working girls" trying to make as much money as they possibly can before they reach 30, is delusional. Sending them money is part of the manipulation and delusion.

btw - I met a bar girl in Bangkok. The next year I visited her in Isaan. She had a modern house, an SUV and a new pick-up. All of it was paid for by her Aussie sugar-daddy. He also paid her a lot of money every month to stay home in Isaan, for the last four year. As I said, I met this gal - she was wearing #43 or something like that, in Bangkok. You can't keep the girl back on the farm after she's seen Paree.

Once that old black magic gets in the doormats eyes.

All is lost.

Over the years Ive met others like me.

For some reason we can fall in love, but it doesn't blind us.

I call it, my gift from God.

[LaraC]

Does anyone have any comments about Thai men with farang women? Just curious what you people have to say.

Same deal for them.

Even the Thai girls support the Thai men!

How many Thai men/farang female couples do you actually know?

From the sounds of it..zero.

Utter nonsense.

I know a great deal of thai male/farang female couples (most long term relationships/married).

Most women rarely partner down, whereas many men are happy to.

So...you will normally see well matched thai male/farang female couples in terms of age/academics/finances..etc.

If you ever see oddly matched thai male/farang female..its normally a holiday fling situation, such as at the beaches...not an actual 'relationship'.

[ppmacready]

Does anyone have any comments about Thai men with farang women? Just curious what you people have to say.

Same deal for them.

Even the Thai girls support the Thai men!

How many Thai men/farang female couples do you actually know?

From the sounds of it..zero.

Utter nonsense.

I know a great deal of thai male/farang female couples (most long term relationships/married).

Most women rarely partner down, whereas many men are happy to.

So...you will normally see well matched thai male/farang female couples in terms of age/academics/finances..etc.

If you ever see oddly matched thai male/farang female..its normally a holiday fling situation, such as at the beaches...not an actual 'relationship'.

Thats a low number zero.

I try not to get in a pissing contest on here. You never know HOW important the guy is your pissing against! ( in his own mind of course!)

When I lived in Phuket I knew some, obviously not as many as you ( I do hope its still OK by you to voice my opinion on this site.) professional western ladys.

Do I actually need your permission?

Some worked in Singapore.

They fell in love and were happy to support their Thai boyfriends.

I'm so sorry I dared to disagree with you.

[LaraC]

Does anyone have any comments about Thai men with farang women? Just curious what you people have to say.

Same deal for them.

Even the Thai girls support the Thai men!

How many Thai men/farang female couples do you actually know?

From the sounds of it..zero.

Utter nonsense.

I know a great deal of thai male/farang female couples (most long term relationships/married).

Most women rarely partner down, whereas many men are happy to.

So...you will normally see well matched thai male/farang female couples in terms of age/academics/finances..etc.

If you ever see oddly matched thai male/farang female..its normally a holiday fling situation, such as at the beaches...not an actual 'relationship'.

Thats a low number zero.

I try not to get in a pissing contest on here. You never know HOW important the guy is your pissing against! ( in his own mind of course!)

When I lived in Phuket I knew some, obviously not as many as you ( I do hope its still OK by you to voice my opinion on this site - i suppose, if you must.) professional western ladys.

Do I actually need your permission? - two days advanced notice in writing is prefereable..but you did it already

Some worked in Singapore.

They fell in love and were happy to support their Thai boyfriends.

I'm so sorry I dared to disagree with you. - apology accepted

[Nayet]

Yeah, it's hilarious when people get their hearts carved out of their chest and lose their life savings in the process. It's also funny when children get cancer.

[Pralaad]

My wife has a friend,who has 4 guys on the go at any one time,one bloke got her a credit card,she rakes in about 100,000 a month of course all the fools think they are the only one's,i have met a couple of them,it hard not to laugh when they tell you how much they love her and what a good girl she is.

Let me guess you also think you the only one your wife is married to and sleeping with ? Because she is different .

Ever heard the saying" show me your friends and I tell you all about you"?

If my gf had 1 single friend who was a hooker, rest assured she will not be wife nor would she be a gf for much longer

[Lucifer]

"When I leave she heads straight to her village.. I know, coz when I call her I can hear chickens in the background.

Also, she looks after hearself very well, coz when I call her middle of the night, she's usually in the bathroom. I love her I do."

Go to Thai markets. Look for "chicken noise making toy", about 300 baht, good investment for the girls. Red flag is "she's usually in the bathroom". Bladder problem? Or privacy from "sleep over"?

She is so considerate, she say's she has to whisper (from in the bathroom) so as not to wake her mum up.

[brubakertx]

It sadden me sometimes, when I hear all the stories about the bad Thai ladies. I been in Thailand for 4+ years, so I heard and seen a lot.

What make me sad, I really don't trust any Thai girls now, even when I have no reason not to trust them. I'm not even talking about bar girls, night club girls, etc.

[HeavyDrinker]

These threads should be renamed 'my online fantasy' given the utter lies and fantasies posted here, from the OP to the "My Christian Thai" wife post and the Beau xeaux who thinks his wife lets him 'double up' every Friday.

Some of the posts make whereustay sound truthful and believable.

Edited May 23, 2014 by HeavyDrinker

[PDavies]

Its really the older guys or big age differences where this is an sort of norm. I know plenty of young farang guys with similarly aged Thai gf's...and no, they don't offer money.

Right. The majority of Thaivisa males are middle-aged or old. When you get older you generally become less attractive, physically. A youngish girl is only going to consider mating with an older gent if he has other redeeming qualities. Personality might play a part but money and success is usually the key.

Imagine yourself as the 20-30 year old girl, why would you hook up with a 50 year old when you could have a 25 year old guy. There's no incentive unless the 50 year old is going to give you £$£$£.

Because there's a huge bias of the older guys on here, you only hear the stories of how they have been screwed over by the girl who was only really interested in how much she could get from the guy. If this forum were full of 20/30-something year olds it'd be a completely different story because those relationships are [generally] more genuine.