Hypocrisy can amplify human rights problems

[Lite Beer]

EDITORIAL
Hypocrisy can amplify human rights problems
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Coup or no coup, Thais have a big problem with basic principles

The military is being flooded with calls to return democracy to the country as soon as possible. That is a key issue at the moment, but it's not the only one. The country as a whole needs to be "adjusted" if we are to really "move forward", as many are demanding. At the root of all our problems is Thais' inability to standardise fundamental values, including those concerning human rights.

When human rights are tied to political leanings, double or multiple standards are inevitable. That's pretty much the case in Thailand, where one side condemns the imposition of martial law and its impact on "democratic" rights while the other points to attacks on anti-government protesters and applauds the military for intervening. Every single person in Thailand is an advocate for human rights. But each individual advocates only for the issues that fit his or her ideology.

Double standards are now rife in Thailand thanks to our divisive politics. One faction screams in outrage when a taxi driver is attacked by protesters, while the other just ignores the incident. The situation is reversed when M79 attacks claim lives, with the former faction turning a blind eye. This has happened, is happening and will happen again.

Even rights organisations are culpable. Statements in response to controversial political developments toe strict ideological lines. And academics who claim to be fighting for "the people" cannot escape the trap of double standards. In fact, many are at the forefront of the rights hypocrisy. But it's difficult to single them out for blame - like so many of us, they are casualties of this political war.

We can extend the scrutiny a bit further, to diplomatic circles. Reactions to developments in Thailand's political crisis have become predictable for their inconsistency. One incident may be condemned more strongly than another, despite their equal gravity in terms of numbers hurt. Human rights values are not supposed to be slippery. In Thailand, they are and always will be.

Should such fundamental principles be politicised? Of course not. Are they being politicised? Yes, they are. Worse is the tendency to wait eagerly for our ideological enemies to commit outrages against human rights so we can scream "See?" Politics has intensified that tendency. Politics has brought out the bad in us, yet made us feel more self-righteous in the process.

What's worse in Thailand: martial law, or the "disappearance" of a Muslim lawyer under a democratically elected government? Everyone has a different answer, but the truth is that rights abuses are intolerable no matter who the perpetrator is. The truth is that while Thailand has no shortage of rights advocates, many are simply fakes.

Some say you either are a rights advocate or you are not. However, we can actually be something in-between. The only important thing about being "something in-between" is that we recognise what we truly are.

A coup is depressing. But perhaps a country with uniform fundamental values could deal with it. And agreeing on human rights would be a start. After all, nobody, let alone the military, could twist such an important set of standards for their own gain.

Failure to advocate the full gamut of human rights values is not a crime. But it's shaming to discover that we don't possess the agreed-upon basic values we pretend to. More than shaming, in fact, as many of our devastating problems have stemmed from this absence. Human rights abuses are bad, but they can be amplified one way or another by hypocrisy.

-- The Nation 2014-05-24

[Clutch]

4 biggest problems are: Apathy, greed, concern over losing face and of course driving skills.

[terryp]

Thailand the “hub” of hypocrisy...100%

[noitom]

Sad that in the final analysis, Thais have no character. They speak of needing a "reset," but all that really means is setting up a new problem with a different cast of characters without changing the rules.

[Payboy]

If someone has "naa taa dee" they must be good, yes.

[Now or Never]

If someone has "naa taa dee" they must be good, yes.

Yes, exactly.

Then it's bend over and I'll owe you one.

[LuckyLew]

Thailand - the hub of human rights abuses

[focus27]

The history of human rights is also a history against human wrongs. But in a country such as Thailand that refuses to teach and learn from their own real history, both rights and wrongs remain relative, personal and expedient.

Thailand is a fairly young country, with a historical consciousness of barely a few hundred years. The earliest references to 'siam' and 'siamese' people refer to wandering tribes and the nascent city states carved out of a crumbling Khmer empire. (This is different to the even younger USA as it was fought over and built by Europeans who brought with them their own heritage.) This isn't the place for a long history of Thailand, but it strikes me that the obvious policy of promoting ignorance and nationalism is seriously backfiring in an age of easy access to information. Thailand is not a unitary state, but rather than promote policies of inclusion, they've gone and asserted those Thai Cultural Mandates that promote repression of people's real cultural histories.

"At the root of all our problems is Thais' inability to standardise fundamental values, including those concerning human rights."

Perhaps time to scrap those cultural mandates born of the fascist era and write a new set. Perhaps then the peoples of Thailand can sort out their legal frameworks to reflect these new cultural values. We're back, as always, to education.

[stickyrice2000]

Thailand - the hub of abusing power for personal gain

[mijan24]

The history of human rights is also a history against human wrongs. But in a country such as Thailand that refuses to teach and learn from their own real history, both rights and wrongs remain relative, personal and expedient.

Thailand is a fairly young country, with a historical consciousness of barely a few hundred years. The earliest references to 'siam' and 'siamese' people refer to wandering tribes and the nascent city states carved out of a crumbling Khmer empire. (This is different to the even younger USA as it was fought over and built by Europeans who brought with them their own heritage.) This isn't the place for a long history of Thailand, but it strikes me that the obvious policy of promoting ignorance and nationalism is seriously backfiring in an age of easy access to information. Thailand is not a unitary state, but rather than promote policies of inclusion, they've gone and asserted those Thai Cultural Mandates that promote repression of people's real cultural histories.

"At the r in the area of Chiang Klangoot of all our problems is Thais' inability to standardise fundamental values, including those concerning human rights."

Perhaps time to scrap those cultural mandates born of the fascist era and write a new set. Perhaps then the peoples of Thailand can sort out their legal frameworks to reflect these new cultural values. We're back, as always, to education.

Iteresting but to say Thailand is "a fairly young country" is one way of introducing a bias to colour future debate -Homo Sapiens established themselves in Thailand 40000 years ago, 4000 years ago people in the area area of Chiang Klang, near Udon Thani started to grow rice.

Around 2500 BC, the bronze age began at this period ceramic tripods were also being manufactured Surathani, Nakhon Sri Tammarat, Trang and Krabi.

An important network of farming communities flourished in Pattani, and Yala in the South,

and around Khon Kaen in the Nort East.

The Thais before occupying Siam lived in the provinces of Sichuan and Yunnan under the influence of the Chinese - it was in fact the Chinese who called them THAIS (meaning glorious or great ) and so the story goes on and of course we know they were defeated in 78 BC and their states were made part of the western provinces of China which caused many Thais to emigrate southwards - Sichuan - Burma and Thailand followed. So with this in mind how can you say "time to scrap cultural mandates" that in itself is a facist statement/thought.

[ggt]

Not allowed to post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, or Thai people!...so I will not...this time...

Edited May 24, 2014 by ggt

[Jack Mountain]

Tell me, Thailand should take which country as an example? I need a laugh ...

[belg]

thailand, where people are buddists, but only on paper or during ceremonies

[JoeThePoster]

If someone has "naa taa dee" they must be good, yes.

Hmm, must buy more whitening lotion.

[Thai at Heart]

We've just had a corrupt government turned over by a bloke who brought down another govt with his own corruption.

Until money and position isn't blindly respected, nothing will change. Corrupt people should be shunned not respected.

[FangFerang]

" Double standards are now rife in Thailand thanks to our divisive politics. One faction screams in outrage when a taxi driver is attacked by protesters, while the other just ignores the incident. The situation is reversed when M79 attacks claim lives, with the former faction turning a blind eye. This has happened, is happening and will happen again.....Human rights abuses are bad, but they can be amplified one way or another by hypocrisy."

Holy poopy drawers, batman! He's been reading TVF!!

[FangFerang]

Tell me, Thailand should take which country as an example? I need a laugh ...

Switzerland! Where people have the highest standard of living in the world...

as of a few years ago, anyway.

[useronthenet]

This coup is only about holding onto power, greed and corruption by the elitists who control Thailand.

This about the 12th coup d'etat and still the country is run by the same old cronies.

I reported before the measure of these people and how specifically they treat their own people aswell as foreigners.

Thailand does it everyday. Rules specifically designed to descriminate against foreigners (non Thais) has been implemented for decades.

Foreigners cannot own land

Foreigners cannot own a business outright only 49%

Foreigners cannot get a loan without a work permit

Foreigners cannot get a subscription eg: telephone

Foreigners cannot open a bank account without a work permit

Foreigners have no rights when married to a Thai

Foreigners can only do certain jobs, most others are reserved for Thais only


Foreigners with work permit must report to immigration every 90 days

… and the list goes on.

As for legal refugees and asylum-seekers, well they just sell them off to slave 
labour, incarcerate them, sexually and physically abuse them.

Thailands appaling treatment of the Rohingya people….

http://tastythailand.com/rohingya-muslims-kept-in-overcrowded-dirty-cages-in-thailand-for-months-video/

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/thailand?page=3
http://phuketwan.com/tourism/2008-2013-five-years-hell-boatpeople-thailand-secretly-tries-options-19358/

Rohingya boatpeople by the Reuters news agency on July 17 reported such crimes against humanity by the Thai authorities, but it seems that most are not taking much notice or turning a blind eye.

When you plan to take your next holiday or living there, just remember the type of nation your supporting !

[pisico]

The history of human rights is also a history against human wrongs. But in a country such as Thailand that refuses to teach and learn from their own real history, both rights and wrongs remain relative, personal and expedient.

Thailand is a fairly young country, with a historical consciousness of barely a few hundred years. The earliest references to 'siam' and 'siamese' people refer to wandering tribes and the nascent city states carved out of a crumbling Khmer empire. (This is different to the even younger USA as it was fought over and built by Europeans who brought with them their own heritage.) This isn't the place for a long history of Thailand, but it strikes me that the obvious policy of promoting ignorance and nationalism is seriously backfiring in an age of easy access to information. Thailand is not a unitary state, but rather than promote policies of inclusion, they've gone and asserted those Thai Cultural Mandates that promote repression of people's real cultural histories.

"At the r in the area of Chiang Klangoot of all our problems is Thais' inability to standardise fundamental values, including those concerning human rights."

Perhaps time to scrap those cultural mandates born of the fascist era and write a new set. Perhaps then the peoples of Thailand can sort out their legal frameworks to reflect these new cultural values. We're back, as always, to education.

Iteresting but to say Thailand is "a fairly young country" is one way of introducing a bias to colour future debate -Homo Sapiens established themselves in Thailand 40000 years ago, 4000 years ago people in the area area of Chiang Klang, near Udon Thani started to grow rice.

Around 2500 BC, the bronze age began at this period ceramic tripods were also being manufactured Surathani, Nakhon Sri Tammarat, Trang and Krabi.

An important network of farming communities flourished in Pattani, and Yala in the South,

and around Khon Kaen in the Nort East.

The Thais before occupying Siam lived in the provinces of Sichuan and Yunnan under the influence of the Chinese - it was in fact the Chinese who called them THAIS (meaning glorious or great ) and so the story goes on and of course we know they were defeated in 78 BC and their states were made part of the western provinces of China which caused many Thais to emigrate southwards - Sichuan - Burma and Thailand followed. So with this in mind how can you say "time to scrap cultural mandates" that in itself is a facist statement/thought.

May respectfully add data to your post?

The Chinese, who came to what is now Thailand, did so as a result of Mongols invading the (nowadays) Sichuan province. They settled around the area where Nan is. When after the Mongol invasion subsided and eventually their hegemony disappeared, the Chinese coming into the area known today as Thailand (up until 1939 Siam) referred to Thais not as "glorious" but as people "difficult to control or unruly". The word Thai in ancient Mandarin and Sichuan dialect has been interpreted to benefit the meaning of today's Thailand.

Pibun was the one responsible for:

1- Changing the name of Siam to Thailand

2- Cult of personality. Pibun's image was ubiquitous throughout the entire country.

3- Changing the way Siamese people dressed for hundreds of years to conform to Western standards and even nixing chopsticks in favor of spoon and fork.

4- Issuing the 12 Mandates : the onset of Xenophobia and Merit Making as national traits.

5- Military rule as the "right way" of government.

6- Allowing the Japanese army to occupy Thailand.

7- Declaration of war to UK and USA.

8- Systemic rewriting of history to indoctrinate the "masses.

Rhetorical question: Was there a reaction from the population against those decreed changes???

[hobz]

4 biggest problems are: Apathy, greed, concern over losing face and of course driving skills.

I would like to add "poor education" to the list.

[hobz]

This coup is only about holding onto power, greed and corruption by the elitists who control Thailand.

This about the 12th coup d'etat and still the country is run by the same old cronies.

I reported before the measure of these people and how specifically they treat their own people aswell as foreigners.

Thailand does it everyday. Rules specifically designed to descriminate against foreigners (non Thais) has been implemented for decades.

Foreigners cannot own land


Foreigners cannot own a business outright only 49%


Foreigners cannot get a loan without a work permit


Foreigners cannot get a subscription eg: telephone


Foreigners cannot open a bank account without a work permit


Foreigners have no rights when married to a Thai


Foreigners can only do certain jobs, most others are reserved for Thais only


Foreigners with work permit must report to immigration every 90 days

… and the list goes on.

As for legal refugees and asylum-seekers, well they just sell them off to slave 
labour, incarcerate them, sexually and physically abuse them.

Thailands appaling treatment of the Rohingya people….

http://tastythailand.com/rohingya-muslims-kept-in-overcrowded-dirty-cages-in-thailand-for-months-video/

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/thailand?page=3

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/2008-2013-five-years-hell-boatpeople-thailand-secretly-tries-options-19358/

Rohingya boatpeople by the Reuters news agency on July 17 reported such crimes against humanity by the Thai authorities, but it seems that most are not taking much notice or turning a blind eye.

When you plan to take your next holiday or living there, just remember the type of nation your supporting !

Here's some feedback and thoughts on your list of discrimination against foreigners, Please let me know where I am wrong.

Foreigners cannot own land <-- This is to prevent chineese or other foreigners from bying the entire nation.


Foreigners cannot own a business outright only 49%
 <-- See above

Foreigners cannot get a loan without a work permit <-- This sounds bad. I understand not giving loans to tourists but to retired people that have ties with the community (own house etc) should be able to get a loan imho. So in this case I agree.


Foreigners cannot get a subscription eg: telephone <-- Not true in practice, many people i know have subscriptions on tourist visas!


Foreigners cannot open a bank account without a work permit <- Not true in practice, many people i know have bank accounts on tourist visas!


Foreigners have no rights when married to a Thai
 <-- Please elaborate? you mean when divorcing, or?

Foreigners can only do certain jobs, most others are reserved for Thais only <-- This is to keep up employment for thais,, Makes complete sense,, it's not aimed _against_ foreigners, but _for_ thais .. I think it's the same in many countries around the world.


Foreigners with work permit must report to immigration every 90 days <-- I lean on agreeing with you on this one. But I would be interested in hearing what they thought when they came up with this rule and how they reasoned about it before i judge.

[useronthenet]

This coup is only about holding onto power, greed and corruption by the elitists who control Thailand.

This about the 12th coup d'etat and still the country is run by the same old cronies.

I reported before the measure of these people and how specifically they treat their own people aswell as foreigners.

Thailand does it everyday. Rules specifically designed to descriminate against foreigners (non Thais) has been implemented for decades.

Foreigners cannot own land


Foreigners cannot own a business outright only 49%


Foreigners cannot get a loan without a work permit


Foreigners cannot get a subscription eg: telephone


Foreigners cannot open a bank account without a work permit


Foreigners have no rights when married to a Thai


Foreigners can only do certain jobs, most others are reserved for Thais only


Foreigners with work permit must report to immigration every 90 days

… and the list goes on.

As for legal refugees and asylum-seekers, well they just sell them off to slave 
labour, incarcerate them, sexually and physically abuse them.

Thailands appaling treatment of the Rohingya people….

http://tastythailand.com/rohingya-muslims-kept-in-overcrowded-dirty-cages-in-thailand-for-months-video/

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/thailand?page=3

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/2008-2013-five-years-hell-boatpeople-thailand-secretly-tries-options-19358/

Rohingya boatpeople by the Reuters news agency on July 17 reported such crimes against humanity by the Thai authorities, but it seems that most are not taking much notice or turning a blind eye.

When you plan to take your next holiday or living there, just remember the type of nation your supporting !

Here's some feedback and thoughts on your list of discrimination against foreigners, Please let me know where I am wrong.

Foreigners cannot own land <-- This is to prevent chineese or other foreigners from bying the entire nation.

When I last checked, Chinese immigrants and other elitists mostly control the country … Famously, the Shinawatra clan come to mind. Even so, you cannot physically take the land out of the country so this rule is rather pointless.


Foreigners cannot own a business outright only 49%
 <-- See above

Correction, American citizens can own a business outright, except any other foreigner which is a slap in the face given that many other countries assist Thailand directly and indirectly.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/188939-american-owned-100business-in-thailand/

Foreigners cannot get a loan without a work permit <-- This sounds bad. I understand not giving loans to tourists but to retired people that have ties with the community (own house etc) should be able to get a loan imho. So in this case I agree.


Foreigners cannot get a subscription eg: telephone <-- Not true in practice, many people i know have subscriptions on tourist visas!

No officially you cannot get any loan or subscription unless you have residency status


Foreigners cannot open a bank account without a work permit <- Not true in practice, many people i know have bank accounts on tourist visas! Wrong, officially all foreigners are not allowed a bank account without a work permit.

read this: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/248628-opening-bank-account-with-no-work-permit/


Foreigners have no rights when married to a Thai
 <-- Please elaborate? you mean when divorcing, or?

Correction,The only rights I am aware of it the fact that you can apply for a non-immigrant 'O' (marriage visa), and can apply

for residency (which is a mine field of bureaucracy)

Foreigners can only do certain jobs, most others are reserved for Thais only <-- This is to keep up employment for thais,, Makes complete sense,, it's not aimed _against_ foreigners, but _for_ thais .. I think it's the same in many countries around the world.

Wrong, most other developed countries would class this as clear discrimination, and would not be legal in a democratic society since this violates human rights, regardless of color, race, sexual orientation, & religion.


Foreigners with work permit must report to immigration every 90 days <-- I lean on agreeing with you on this one. But I would be interested in hearing what they thought when they came up with this rule and how they reasoned about it before i judge.

Just to annoy foreigners I guess, since immigration will already have proof of your place of work.

Edited May 24, 2014 by useronthenet

[american12bthai]

4 biggest problems are: Apathy, greed, concern over losing face and of course driving skills.

id put down ... taking responsibility for ones own actions.

[dukeandduke]

"Every single person in Thailand is an advocate for human rights."

I totally disagree.

[mrtoad]

Thailand the “hub” of hypocrisy...100%

And Coups

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[wabothai]

how about treating the many thais living abroad the same way. i am sure the borders will be closed permanently for all farangs.

[hobz]

This coup is only about holding onto power, greed and corruption by the elitists who control Thailand.

This about the 12th coup d'etat and still the country is run by the same old cronies.

I reported before the measure of these people and how specifically they treat their own people aswell as foreigners.

Thailand does it everyday. Rules specifically designed to descriminate against foreigners (non Thais) has been implemented for decades.

Foreigners cannot own land


Foreigners cannot own a business outright only 49%


Foreigners cannot get a loan without a work permit


Foreigners cannot get a subscription eg: telephone


Foreigners cannot open a bank account without a work permit


Foreigners have no rights when married to a Thai


Foreigners can only do certain jobs, most others are reserved for Thais only


Foreigners with work permit must report to immigration every 90 days

… and the list goes on.

As for legal refugees and asylum-seekers, well they just sell them off to slave 
labour, incarcerate them, sexually and physically abuse them.

Thailands appaling treatment of the Rohingya people….

http://tastythailand.com/rohingya-muslims-kept-in-overcrowded-dirty-cages-in-thailand-for-months-video/

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/thailand?page=3

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/2008-2013-five-years-hell-boatpeople-thailand-secretly-tries-options-19358/

Rohingya boatpeople by the Reuters news agency on July 17 reported such crimes against humanity by the Thai authorities, but it seems that most are not taking much notice or turning a blind eye.

When you plan to take your next holiday or living there, just remember the type of nation your supporting !

Here's some feedback and thoughts on your list of discrimination against foreigners, Please let me know where I am wrong.

Foreigners cannot own land <-- This is to prevent chineese or other foreigners from bying the entire nation.

When I last checked, Chinese immigrants and other elitists mostly control the country … Famously, the Shinawatra clan come to mind. Even so, you cannot physically take the land out of the country so this rule is rather pointless.

Many developing nations have laws like this to prevent rich foreigners to sweep up and take ownership of the land. If the land was suddenly owned by chineese or something, then alot of money that would otherwise stay in thailand would flow out of thailand.

For the record, I no longer believe that land can be taken out of the country, thank you for pointing that out.


Foreigners cannot own a business outright only 49%
 <-- See above

Correction, American citizens can own a business outright, except any other foreigner which is a slap in the face given that many other countries assist Thailand directly and indirectly.

Interesting, so, they hate all foreigners except americans? Doesn't sound right to me.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/188939-american-owned-100business-in-thailand/

Foreigners cannot get a loan without a work permit <-- This sounds bad. I understand not giving loans to tourists but to retired people that have ties with the community (own house etc) should be able to get a loan imho. So in this case I agree.


Foreigners cannot get a subscription eg: telephone <-- Not true in practice, many people i know have subscriptions on tourist visas!

No officially you cannot get any loan or subscription unless you have residency status

Again, in practice it is completely ignored. As I said, I know countless foreigners that have different subscriptions. And on the contrary I have never heard about anyone being denied a subscription (although i'm sure you will find an example just to prove me wrong.).

I personally have subscriptions to 3bb and sinet.


Foreigners cannot open a bank account without a work permit <- Not true in practice, many people i know have bank accounts on tourist visas! Wrong, officially all foreigners are not allowed a bank account without a work permit.

Actually you are wrong in theory and in definitely in practice.,

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/SpecialServices/ForeignCustomers/Pages/Openinganaccountnew.aspx

http://pattayatoday.net/news/latest-edition/stricter-rules-for-foreigners%E2%80%99-bank-accounts/

There's some extra documentation required for foreigners, and it is due to money laundering issues due to pressure from foreign countries! (ironic huh?)

I know for a fact that countless foreigners have bank accounts. I also know that some banks will deny applications. But going to the next bank usually works.

And I have a bank account in Thailand. So I know it's no problem. Also immigration expects me to show thai bank statements, knowing that foreigners can open thai bank accounts.

read this: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/248628-opening-bank-account-with-no-work-permit/


Foreigners have no rights when married to a Thai
 <-- Please elaborate? you mean when divorcing, or?

Correction,The only rights I am aware of it the fact that you can apply for a non-immigrant 'O' (marriage visa), and can apply

for residency (which is a mine field of bureaucracy)

I too hate the bureaucracy, but it's NOTHING compared to what a Thai must go through to visit Sweden (schengen) for a holiday,, almost 6 months long visa procedure..

Foreigners can only do certain jobs, most others are reserved for Thais only <-- This is to keep up employment for thais,, Makes complete sense,, it's not aimed _against_ foreigners, but _for_ thais .. I think it's the same in many countries around the world.

Wrong, most other developed countries would class this as clear discrimination, and would not be legal in a democratic society since this violates human rights, regardless of color, race, sexual orientation, & religion.

Not allowing non-citizens to work has nothing to do with human rights. It's about labor politics..


Foreigners with work permit must report to immigration every 90 days <-- I lean on agreeing with you on this one. But I would be interested in hearing what they thought when they came up with this rule and how they reasoned about it before i judge.

Just to annoy foreigners I guess, since immigration will already have proof of your place of work.

Why would you guess that? That would be incredible if it was true, and yet it is your first guess?

Can you imagine the meeting where they sat down and pondered the rules and said "can't we annoy the foreigners somehow?" "yeah how about having them come in every 90 days" .. If they really had an agenda to "annoy" foreigners, dont you think it would be way way worse?

It's way more likely that the 90 day rule came in for good reasons,, OR just out of pure corruption. Maybe they were thinking "we need to have stuff to do so that we can hire more staff and get bigger budget", if we force people to come in every 90 days we got alot of stuff to do.. thats good for our pockets ..

You see, my belief is that people think about their pockets before they think about annoying foreigners.. and i guess that's where we differ

ps. I want to add that I think _ALOT_ of stuff in Thailand is absolutely horribly done.. But I don't think it's because Thais hate foreigners,, it's because of corruption and incompetence / poor education / systems / standards.

Take the whole driving fiasco, alot of people die every year (mostly thais) because they cant get the roads safe,, is the lack of road safety there because the department of transportation hates Thais? No, it's there because of a mixture of incompetence and corruption.

Edited May 24, 2014 by hobz

[mijan24]

The history of human rights is also a history against human wrongs. But in a country such as Thailand that refuses to teach and learn from their own real history, both rights and wrongs remain relative, personal and expedient.

Thailand is a fairly young country, with a historical consciousness of barely a few hundred years. The earliest references to 'siam' and 'siamese' people refer to wandering tribes and the nascent city states carved out of a crumbling Khmer empire. (This is different to the even younger USA as it was fought over and built by Europeans who brought with them their own heritage.) This isn't the place for a long history of Thailand, but it strikes me that the obvious policy of promoting ignorance and nationalism is seriously backfiring in an age of easy access to information. Thailand is not a unitary state, but rather than promote policies of inclusion, they've gone and asserted those Thai Cultural Mandates that promote repression of people's real cultural histories.

"At the r in the area of Chiang Klangoot of all our problems is Thais' inability to standardise fundamental values, including those concerning human rights."

Perhaps time to scrap those cultural mandates born of the fascist era and write a new set. Perhaps then the peoples of Thailand can sort out their legal frameworks to reflect these new cultural values. We're back, as always, to education.

Iteresting but to say Thailand is "a fairly young country" is one way of introducing a bias to colour future debate -Homo Sapiens established themselves in Thailand 40000 years ago, 4000 years ago people in the area area of Chiang Klang, near Udon Thani started to grow rice.

Around 2500 BC, the bronze age began at this period ceramic tripods were also being manufactured Surathani, Nakhon Sri Tammarat, Trang and Krabi.

An important network of farming communities flourished in Pattani, and Yala in the South,

and around Khon Kaen in the Nort East.

The Thais before occupying Siam lived in the provinces of Sichuan and Yunnan under the influence of the Chinese - it was in fact the Chinese who called them THAIS (meaning glorious or great ) and so the story goes on and of course we know they were defeated in 78 BC and their states were made part of the western provinces of China which caused many Thais to emigrate southwards - Sichuan - Burma and Thailand followed. So with this in mind how can you say "time to scrap cultural mandates" that in itself is a facist statement/thought.

May respectfully add data to your post?

The Chinese, who came to what is now Thailand, did so as a result of Mongols invading the (nowadays) Sichuan province. They settled around the area where Nan is. When after the Mongol invasion subsided and eventually their hegemony disappeared, the Chinese coming into the area known today as Thailand (up until 1939 Siam) referred to Thais not as "glorious" but as people "difficult to control or unruly". The word Thai in ancient Mandarin and Sichuan dialect has been interpreted to benefit the meaning of today's Thailand.

Pibun was the one responsible for:

1- Changing the name of Siam to Thailand

2- Cult of personality. Pibun's image was ubiquitous throughout the entire country.

3- Changing the way Siamese people dressed for hundreds of years to conform to Western standards and even nixing chopsticks in favor of spoon and fork.

4- Issuing the 12 Mandates : the onset of Xenophobia and Merit Making as national traits.

5- Military rule as the "right way" of government.

6- Allowing the Japanese army to occupy Thailand.

7- Declaration of war to UK and USA.

8- Systemic rewriting of history to indoctrinate the "masses.

Rhetorical question: Was there a reaction from the population against those decreed changes???

Enjoyed your post.

The kingdom of Ngai-Lo refused to pay tribute to China in 78 BC - The Thais were indeed defeated and there states were made part of the western provinces of China, exasperated by the tyranny of the Chinese they moved to the powerful kingdom of Nan- Chao which stretched from Burma to Vietnam.

The Mongols arrived in force in in 1253 and some Thai decendants still live in Yunnan to this day.

Of course I digress from the original post and many Thais are not made aware of their history and I have no doubt by the comments you read on TV many foreigners know little of Thailand and show no interest in knowing nor understanding the roots many of these people have.

We can only hope some good comes out of the current shambles and they(the Thai people) are not naieve or greedy enough to follow the western ways as proported to be the solution by many TV posters.

[hobz]

how about treating the many thais living abroad the same way. i am sure the borders will be closed permanently for all farangs.

You have no idea how easy it is to stay in Thailand compare to european countries, for a Thai person to visit Sweden for a 10 day holiday or something it's a MINIMUM 6 month visa process.

Maybe that is the reason why most Thai people never can go anywhere except the poor neighboring countries where it's even shittier and maybe that is why they never get to see how a good society works.

Edited May 24, 2014 by hobz

[virtualtraveller]

Very well put. Much that coups are 'dirty' I challenge anyone to condemn this coup without mentioning that it seized power from an 'elected govt' that had handed power over to an unelected fugitive criminal for 3 years. No difference then between Thaksin in charge or a general. Same difference, not the person the people 'selected'.