Duel National child traveling from Thailand to the UK

[phuketbased]

Hi i hope you guys can help out here...My son is a Duel UK and Thai national holding a UK passport. We plan to travel back to the UK and remain there. The mother is long gone so we cannot get a Thai passport. But does my son actually need one? We have a Thai ID card, birth certificate etc, showing that he is a Thai national also the same plus a UK passport. Can we not show his Thai ID as proof of legally ok to stay in Thailand plus the UK passport as the valid travel document to the UK? (When we go through immigration etc)

We have all the documents for both countries showing me as having parental responsibility

[ubonjoe]

Moved to the Thai visas forum.

[7by7]

The normal procedure for dual national children born in Thailand and leaving the Kingdom is for them to use their Thai passport to leave; and the same when/if they return.

Using his British passport when checking in with the airline and again when entering the UK will, obviously, not be a problem.

The problem, if any, will be passing through Thai immigration on leaving Thailand without a Thai passport, just a British one, as there will be no record of his entering Thailand with his British passport.

He could, therefore, be treated by them as a British citizen who has overstayed. However, my understanding is that if he is under 14 he will not be subject to overstay fines etc.

Whether or not the evidence you have of his Thai citizenship will overcome this, I don't know.

Hopefully, those with more knowledge and/or experience will be able to answer.

[ubonjoe]

Since he has Thai nationality he will need a Thai passport to leave the country.

He would not even be able to check in for his flight much less clear immigration without it.

You should be able to get is Thai passport if you have been given full parental authority by an Amphoe or the courts.

Info on the requirement for getting the passport is here. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

[7by7]

Using his British passport when checking in with the airline........will, obviously, not be a problem.

Since he has Thai nationality he will need a Thai passport to leave the country.

He would not even be able to check in for his flight much less clear immigration without it.

I stand corrected; thank you.

[Mario2008]

Not sure. If the child has a UK passport and has never left the country before, the child might be able to leave on the UK passport on show of the birth certificate which explains why there is no immigration record.

But this might still lead to questions whether the mother has given permission to leave with the child. Proof of sole responsibility would negotiate that problem.

In all, if you have proof of sole parental rights getting a Thai passport would be best. If not, you could try it but there are no guarantees it will work .

[ubonjoe]

As far as I know only a child born to non Thai nationals can leave using the birth certificate and a passport for another country to leave the country.

[Mario2008]

As far as I know only a child born to non Thai nationals can leave using the birth certificate and a passport for another country to leave the country.

I am not sure if I have seen such situations, reason I am careful if it is a real possibility. But I have also not seen a rule that a Thai national must leave on his Thai passport. Only the passport of the nationality one enters on. Hence it might be a possibility, if the child has never left Thailand.

[bkk_mike]

The US and UK both require you to enter/exit on your local passport if you've been issued one.

Thailand actually doesn't.

However, they do want you to exit on the passport you entered on.

I did have my daughter once leave with an expired Thai passport (but non-expired UK one), and it caused a bit of a fuss at the immigration counter, but she was eventually allowed to get on the plane (we were originally booked on flights before her passport expired, but got delayed by a friend of hers' visa taking longer than expected). She then re-entered Thailand on her UK passport, but was, fortunately, under 14 when she next left, over a year later, so wasn't liable for the overstay fine. (It's a lot easier/quicker to get the new Thai passport in Thailand than from the embassy in the UK).

If the kid's UK passport was issued at the FCO, and you have a birth certificate showing the child was born in Thailand (assuming this is her first trip abroad), then you should be able to exit with the UK birth certificate (one reason for a birth registration at the embassy that I'd never thought of) plus the UK passport.

The alternative is to go the sole custody route, which would, for a Thai at least, involve a sworn declaration with witness(es?) that you have sole custody and take sole care of the child. With that, you could apply for the Thai passport with only one parent's signature. However, as a foreign parent, I'm not sure if you can do that without getting a court order.

The sole custody route is obviously more certain as immigration are always (quite rightly) watching out for possible parental abductions by either parent in the event of a break-up. Having said that, I've never had any problems travelling with any of my kids when my wife hasn't been travelling at the same time.

[Jonmarleesco]

I doubt it. He really needs a Thai passport. Apart from the ease of getting through immigration, it'll prevent possible issues with the airline.

But if he has the Thai documents, why not apply for the passport, anyway. The Thai process is much more efficient and user friendly than the UK one, too.

[ben2203]

It's possible that you could leave the country with just those documents but I think it would be pretty unusual and also take a lot of time to sort out at the airport. I would suggest going to the ministry of foreign affairs and getting a Thai passport there, explaining the situation with the mother and let them issue a travel document rather than risk possibly not being able to fly.

Essentially, he is Thai now, regardless of the British Passport. So that being the case, you do have to get a Thai passport basically.

The rule is, in and out of Thailand on Thai passport, if you come in on your british passport, you are thus British regardless of if you have a Thai passport, ID card etc. The same logic would be used going out, I would guess.

Some immigration police could overlook it, get the documents copied etc, but getting them there at the right time etc. Doubtful, I would say MFA and explain to them, takes 15 minutes to process it and it's ready within 3 days, or chaeng watthana anyway.

Edited May 26, 2014 by ben2203

[phuketbased]

Thanks for all the input thus far, and it seems a mixed bag of posibily or not, So to add so detail.

Yes the Child has never left Thailand, Whilst as far as i can see the documents should be sufficient to legally get a thai passport, when we went to get one, basically they would not allow it, to paraphrase, As i wasn’t the mother, they explained it would be the same even if i was a thai father. Unless i can prove she is either dead, or have documents showing sole custody, which i don’t. and cannot afford the cost of pursuing this or the time it would take, (3-6 months)Apparently this is a recent change in the law (procedure).

From what i understand, you need valid documentation for the country you are traveling to, this is the only legal requirement i can find. So in this case a uk passport is a valid travel document. I also need proof he is in Thailand legally, did not enter Thailand illegally. these to me seem to be the only requirements, As i can proof he was born here in Thailand, is a Thai resident, ID Card birth cert, School ID card. name on taben barn, I cannot see any legal reason wht he needs a thai passport, to leave Thailand and travel to the UK.

I appreciate the need if / when he comes back to Thailand, but that’s can be resolved in the future

Does this extra detail help?

Appreciate your comments feedback and insights

Edited May 26, 2014 by phuketbased

[phuketbased]

Since he has Thai nationality he will need a Thai passport to leave the country.

He would not even be able to check in for his flight much less clear immigration without it.

You should be able to get is Thai passport if you have been given full parental authority by an Amphoe or the courts.

Info on the requirement for getting the passport is here. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

Actually that is not strictly true, as Thais can leave Thailand to some connecting countries on there Thai ID only, e.g Lao

He would be able to check in his flight if the flight is booked under his UK passport.

Clearing imigration is the question mark i feel

[ubonjoe]

Since he has Thai nationality he will need a Thai passport to leave the country.

He would not even be able to check in for his flight much less clear immigration without it.

You should be able to get is Thai passport if you have been given full parental authority by an Amphoe or the courts.

Info on the requirement for getting the passport is here. http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

Actually that is not strictly true, as Thais can leave Thailand to some connecting countries on there Thai ID only, e.g Lao

He would be able to check in his flight if the flight is booked under his UK passport.

Clearing imigration is the question mark i feel

That is not exactly correct. A Thai must get a border pass to enter Laos just the ID card is not enough.

Leaving from an airport cannot be compared to a border crossing.

[7by7]

Whilst as far as i can see the documents should be sufficient to legally get a thai passport, when we went to get one, basically they would not allow it, to paraphrase, As i wasn’t the mother, they explained it would be the same even if i was a thai father. Unless i can prove she is either dead, or have documents showing sole custody, which i don’t.

Which does rather conflict with your OP where you said

We have all the documents for both countries showing me as having parental responsibility

Presumably you mean you can show that you take care of the child, but not that you have legal custody?

In which case, as far as I understand, child abduction prevention rules mean that even if he had a Thai passport you would not be able to take him out of Thailand without one of: legal custody, his mother's death certificate or written permission from his mother.

I think you should postpone your travel plans until at least you have legal custody and preferably until he has a Thai passport as well.

Otherwise you could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble.

[GarryUK]

Oh dear, I never considered for one second we'd have a problem, but this thread is making me wonder.

At the end of June I'll be flying to Thailand to collect my wife and 2-month old daughter who are moving to the UK. The wife already has her visa but we're currently still waiting for our daughter's UK passport. She has not applied for a Thai passport. I'm already wondering if I'll need to apply for an Emergency Travel Document should the passport not turn up (it's been 8 weeks since the application was submitted at the Embassy just prior to it changing to VFS, we have 5 weeks remaining for it to arrive), but now I have the added confusion as to whether we'll need to try to get a Thai passport in the week I'm there.

[Briggsy]

Could you do a test run by flying to KL and back on his UK passport? If it goes ok, your son has then entered on his UK passport and so should leave in June on it.

[samran]

Oh dear, I never considered for one second we'd have a problem, but this thread is making me wonder.

At the end of June I'll be flying to Thailand to collect my wife and 2-month old daughter who are moving to the UK. The wife already has her visa but we're currently still waiting for our daughter's UK passport. She has not applied for a Thai passport. I'm already wondering if I'll need to apply for an Emergency Travel Document should the passport not turn up (it's been 8 weeks since the application was submitted at the Embassy just prior to it changing to VFS, we have 5 weeks remaining for it to arrive), but now I have the added confusion as to whether we'll need to try to get a Thai passport in the week I'm there.

Your child will need a thai passport to leave the country and more importantly, renter it without restriction.

Best get the thai passport sorted the week you are here.

[ubonjoe]

Oh dear, I never considered for one second we'd have a problem, but this thread is making me wonder.

At the end of June I'll be flying to Thailand to collect my wife and 2-month old daughter who are moving to the UK. The wife already has her visa but we're currently still waiting for our daughter's UK passport. She has not applied for a Thai passport. I'm already wondering if I'll need to apply for an Emergency Travel Document should the passport not turn up (it's been 8 weeks since the application was submitted at the Embassy just prior to it changing to VFS, we have 5 weeks remaining for it to arrive), but now I have the added confusion as to whether we'll need to try to get a Thai passport in the week I'm there.

Your wife could get your daughters passport if you sent her a consent letter for her to do it. You would have to have it notarized at the embassy in London though.

See for passport application info: http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

[GarryUK]

Your wife could get your daughters passport if you sent her a consent letter for her to do it. You would have to have it notarized at the embassy in London though.

See for passport application info: http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/1415/21479-Requirements-for-the-Ordinary-e-Passports-Applicat.html

Have just been reading that as you posted the link earlier, thanks. I think rather than go to her home from the airport we're going to have to stay in Bangkok so on the Monday after arriving we can go to the MoFA together and apply for a Thai passport, then to the British Embassy if her British passport doesn't arrive by then to see if an Emergency Travel Document is possible having not actually held a British passport yet (am following another thread where the guy will investigate this route tomorrow).

[Mario2008]

Thanks for all the input thus far, and it seems a mixed bag of posibily or not, So to add so detail.

Yes the Child has never left Thailand, Whilst as far as i can see the documents should be sufficient to legally get a thai passport, when we went to get one, basically they would not allow it, to paraphrase, As i wasn’t the mother, they explained it would be the same even if i was a thai father. Unless i can prove she is either dead, or have documents showing sole custody, which i don’t. and cannot afford the cost of pursuing this or the time it would take, (3-6 months)Apparently this is a recent change in the law (procedure).

From what i understand, you need valid documentation for the country you are traveling to, this is the only legal requirement i can find. So in this case a uk passport is a valid travel document. I also need proof he is in Thailand legally, did not enter Thailand illegally. these to me seem to be the only requirements, As i can proof he was born here in Thailand, is a Thai resident, ID Card birth cert, School ID card. name on taben barn, I cannot see any legal reason wht he needs a thai passport, to leave Thailand and travel to the UK.

I appreciate the need if / when he comes back to Thailand, but that’s can be resolved in the future

Does this extra detail help?

Appreciate your comments feedback and insights

you have parental rights, if you are the legal father of the child (in essence you were married to the mother or went through court)

you have sole parental right when you alone have the right to make decisions regarding your child. The rights of the mother have then be taken away by the court, or she is dead or she signed her rights away.

For a passport application both parents need to sign, unless the parent has sole parental rights. The passport office was right in their denial.

I have nothing to add to my earlier post. Try it with birth certificate and Thai passport. Might be better at a land border, as they check less for permission of the mother there and take a flight from a neighboring country to the UK.

I would advise getting sole parental rights, all though that takes a while. As you will/might need it in the future.

[nexus99]

Get a Thai passport for him. You absolutely want that. I have two kids that are dual citizen (Thai and USA) and holding both passports is key.

[phuketbased]

Whilst as far as i can see the documents should be sufficient to legally get a thai passport, when we went to get one, basically they would not allow it, to paraphrase, As i wasn’t the mother, they explained it would be the same even if i was a thai father. Unless i can prove she is either dead, or have documents showing sole custody, which i don’t.

Which does rather conflict with your OP where you said

We have all the documents for both countries showing me as having parental responsibility

Presumably you mean you can show that you take care of the child, but not that you have legal custody?

In which case, as far as I understand, child abduction prevention rules mean that even if he had a Thai passport you would not be able to take him out of Thailand without one of: legal custody, his mother's death certificate or written permission from his mother.

I think you should postpone your travel plans until at least you have legal custody and preferably until he has a Thai passport as well.

Otherwise you could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble.

Parental responsibility and sole custody are 2 different things, i have legal custody As i have said as far as i can see i should be able to get the thai passport, but so far to no avail, and therefore i am exploring posible legal alternatives, whilst actually still trying to get the thai passport, I came on here to ask if anyone had any insight into the legal requirement of what passport are actually needed in light of the information provided

[phuketbased]

Could you do a test run by flying to KL and back on his UK passport? If it goes ok, your son has then entered on his UK passport and so should leave in June on it.

That my friend is an outstanding idea, thank you for the input!

[phuketbased]

Oh dear, I never considered for one second we'd have a problem, but this thread is making me wonder.

At the end of June I'll be flying to Thailand to collect my wife and 2-month old daughter who are moving to the UK. The wife already has her visa but we're currently still waiting for our daughter's UK passport. She has not applied for a Thai passport. I'm already wondering if I'll need to apply for an Emergency Travel Document should the passport not turn up (it's been 8 weeks since the application was submitted at the Embassy just prior to it changing to VFS, we have 5 weeks remaining for it to arrive), but now I have the added confusion as to whether we'll need to try to get a Thai passport in the week I'm there.

Could Your wife could get the thai passport now? My difficulties re thai passport are mainly due to his mother lack of availability

[7by7]

Whilst as far as i can see the documents should be sufficient to legally get a thai passport, when we went to get one, basically they would not allow it, to paraphrase, As i wasn’t the mother, they explained it would be the same even if i was a thai father. Unless i can prove she is either dead, or have documents showing sole custody, which i don’t.

Which does rather conflict with your OP where you said

We have all the documents for both countries showing me as having parental responsibility

Presumably you mean you can show that you take care of the child, but not that you have legal custody?

In which case, as far as I understand, child abduction prevention rules mean that even if he had a Thai passport you would not be able to take him out of Thailand without one of: legal custody, his mother's death certificate or written permission from his mother.

I think you should postpone your travel plans until at least you have legal custody and preferably until he has a Thai passport as well.

Otherwise you could find yourself in a whole heap of trouble.

Parental responsibility and sole custody are 2 different things, i have legal custody As i have said as far as i can see i should be able to get the thai passport, but so far to no avail, and therefore i am exploring posible legal alternatives, whilst actually still trying to get the thai passport, I came on here to ask if anyone had any insight into the legal requirement of what passport are actually needed in light of the information provided

Indeed, parental responsibility and sole custody are two different things. Hence my question.

If you have legal custody then getting him a Thai passport without his mother signing anything is simple; provided you have the documents to show this.

What documents did you use when you originally went to the passport office?

Did they say why those documents were unacceptable?

My wife had legal sole custody of her daughter when we married (I say 'had' as the daughter is now 23) and the sole custody document from the court was all she needed to get her daughter a passport without any input from the father.

(She had to go to court as the father wouldn't attend the ampur to sign the necessary papers there; which would have been quicker and cheaper. Not because he cared about the girl, but out of sheer bloody mindedness. He didn't even turn up for the court hearing, despite it being adjourned three times to give him time him to do so.)

[utkb]

I think you should visit your embassy. I recall talking to someone at the American embassy who mentioned that she had gone to the airport regarding American/Thailand children issues leaving Thailand. Don't recall the specifics though.

[phuketbased]

Poste by 7by7

Indeed, parental responsibility and sole custody are two different things. Hence my question.

If you have legal custody then getting him a Thai passport without his mother signing anything is simple; provided you have the documents to show this.

What documents did you use when you originally went to the passport office?

Did they say why those documents were unacceptable?

My wife had legal sole custody of her daughter when we married (I say 'had' as the daughter is now 23) and the sole custody document from the court was all she needed to get her daughter a passport without any input from the father.

(She had to go to court as the father wouldn't attend the ampur to sign the necessary papers there; which would have been quicker and cheaper. Not because he cared about the girl, but out of sheer bloody mindedness. He didn't even turn up for the court hearing, despite it being adjourned three times to give him time him to do so.)

As i have said in the original and subsequent posts this is not about getting a thai passport, The law has changed (recently) since your wife needs. If I can get a thai passport, then there is no issue, If I cannot I need to find an alternative legal solution. Which is the point and topic of the post.

Having studied to the best of my abilities the legal requirement for travel as far as I can ascertain from a legal requirement POV He does not need a thai passport (as long as the proof I provide shows he is Legal in Thailand) Just a UK Passport for his journey to the UK.

I cannot say this is 100% correct so I am therefore asking for thoughts on this, maybe someone has had a similar experience, some legal or immigration knowledge, or perhaps some other ideas

[earthpig]

Thanks for all the input thus far, and it seems a mixed bag of posibily or not, So to add so detail.

Yes the Child has never left Thailand, Whilst as far as i can see the documents should be sufficient to legally get a thai passport, when we went to get one, basically they would not allow it, to paraphrase, As i wasn’t the mother, they explained it would be the same even if i was a thai father. Unless i can prove she is either dead, or have documents showing sole custody, which i don’t. and cannot afford the cost of pursuing this or the time it would take, (3-6 months)Apparently this is a recent change in the law (procedure).

From what i understand, you need valid documentation for the country you are traveling to, this is the only legal requirement i can find. So in this case a uk passport is a valid travel document. I also need proof he is in Thailand legally, did not enter Thailand illegally. these to me seem to be the only requirements, As i can proof he was born here in Thailand, is a Thai resident, ID Card birth cert, School ID card. name on taben barn, I cannot see any legal reason wht he needs a thai passport, to leave Thailand and travel to the UK.

I appreciate the need if / when he comes back to Thailand, but that’s can be resolved in the future

Does this extra detail help?

Appreciate your comments feedback and insights

you have parental rights, if you are the legal father of the child (in essence you were married to the mother or went through court)

you have sole parental right when you alone have the right to make decisions regarding your child. The rights of the mother have then be taken away by the court, or she is dead or she signed her rights away.

For a passport application both parents need to sign, unless the parent has sole parental rights. The passport office was right in their denial.

I have nothing to add to my earlier post. Try it with birth certificate and Thai passport. Might be better at a land border, as they check less for permission of the mother there and take a flight from a neighboring country to the UK.

I would advise getting sole parental rights, all though that takes a while. As you will/might need it in the future.

Mario,

Would you kindly advise specifically how in this case one can get sole parental rights and, of even greater interest, on what basis do you suggest such a thing is possible? I ask because my experience suggests otherwise, with only two narrow exceptions.

I petitioned the Family court to both legitimize and get sole parental rights. The mother, who had already abandoned the child and moved overseas, even returned to Thailand to attend the hearing to support my request for sole parental rights, but it was not granted, though legitimization was.

Now several years later, the mother has not been seen and while having returned to Thailand is out of contact and as a result we are trapped here, as the child was born in Thailand and hence did not enter on a foreign passport. Without the mother's suignature we are unable to get Thai and foreign passports renewed much less a consent letter.The amphur refuses to act without a court order and even if it did our embassy would not issue a new passport without a court order anyway.

My research suggests only two ways such a court order might be obtained, First is when the other parent is deemed to be a danger to the child which, thankfully, is not an issue in this case.

The second may be when a missing in action parent fails to show up, despite repeated adjournments to give her another chance, to the court hearing requesting sole parental powers. Of course, there is nothing stopping the missing parent from showing up, objecting to the granting of sole powers for reasons of face or whatever, and then continuing to do absolutely nothing for the child and perhaps even refusing to renew passports. And even in the case of a no show, sole parental powers might not be granted as this is at the sole discretion of the judges. All of which suggest that this path may prove to be an expensive and time consuming way to end up poorer and as now, without passports and hence virtually imprisoned in the Land of Smiles.

So then, are you suggesting these two avenues to get sole parental rights, or might you have a far better idea in mind?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have!

[Mario2008]

Apply for sole custody based on that the mother is not to be found and get a competent lawyer.

Second option is to go to the UK and apply for sole custody there and then try to get a Thai passport at the Thai embassy.