Wake Up! Are We Really So Stupid!

[jdinasia]

The US sounds like a completly ****** up place,when billions maybe trillions are spent on the military when it refuses to spend money on offering free health care to its citizens.I'm from the UK,ok the health care is not perfect but at least there is some kind of safety net.

Well, the really stupid, tragic part is that per capita Americans spend much more than any other country in the world for health care. Most expensive in the world. For a decent percentage of Americans, they do receive some of the best care in the world. But for the 45 million uninsured, among those many millions who either want to buy insurance (uninsurable) or cannot afford the insurance, well, it is documented many thousands are dying every year. Many more than died in 911, many more than the dead US soldiers in Iraq. Priorities?

well the thread REALLY is not about US medical care ... or US military spending ....

But far more people die from malpractice errors in us Med care than Americans that have died in Iraq ... thaat same thing could be said about yanks that die from alcohol related car crashes

[a2396]

I thought this post was about land, houses and condos? I don't know why we are discussing health care?? Where are expert moderators and overseers on this one? As for QUOTE: "It is not the Thai people that I have contempt for - it is the Thai bureaucratic crap and inefficiency, and their 'I am better than you attitude'." I can say similar things about my own country, which I think is worse than Thailand in this regard.

I do think the property ownership rules need to be revised to allow foreigners, WHO ARE MARRIED TO THAIS, to own land for personal residences & businesses. Upon thier death, ownership would have to revert back to a Thai. I hardly think such a law would undermine the equilibrium of the property market here. Prices are already inflated in some cases by foreign money, via purchase by the wife, ie the money is provided by the Farang husband.

[Donz]

I do think foreigner shouldnt be allowed to buuy and own land in thailand, but ones who are married to Thais should.

[English Noodles]

Im still waiting for your responce on the Australian issue Donz, i gave you plenty to read.

[thankuverybig]

surely westeners with unlimited cash (compared to thais),who are prepared to pay ,way over the going rate for property,has some significance in this.

also the people that havent spent alot of time here or the people that have been living in tourist destinations for long periods of there stay in thailand,& a not really familiar with real thai prices.

i think if i had a nice pad in thailand with my imaginary wife,& put it up for sale,& then got a ridiculously high offer from a rich thai,& also a lower offer from a poor thai farmer,i'm not sure i'd be thinking of the wider picture.

[ROFL]

I do think foreigner shouldnt be allowed to buuy and own land in thailand, but ones who are married to Thais should.

Why not?

[Nignoy]

I thought this post was about land, houses and condos? I don't know why we are discussing health care?? Where are expert moderators and overseers on this one? As for QUOTE: "It is not the Thai people that I have contempt for - it is the Thai bureaucratic crap and inefficiency, and their 'I am better than you attitude'." I can say similar things about my own country, which I think is worse than Thailand in this regard.

I do think the property ownership rules need to be revised to allow foreigners, WHO ARE MARRIED TO THAIS, to own land for personal residences & businesses. Upon thier death, ownership would have to revert back to a Thai. I hardly think such a law would undermine the equilibrium of the property market here. Prices are already inflated in some cases by foreign money, via purchase by the wife, ie the money is provided by the Farang husband.

Let us abide by the thai laws as quirky as they are!!,isnt 2x30year lease long enough,as soon as these laws change the developers take over and the concrete jungles begin, look what is happening to the east coast of australia, in the last 3 years our sleepy little hamlet has become a suburb of brisbane which is 25kms away wall to wall housing estates, our littlevillage has grown from 86 houses to 1500 and it is still growing the land prices have gone up by 600% , So maybe the thais are not so stupid after all, we are quite happy to put up with their laws and regulations so why should not everyone else Nignoy

[Sir Burr]

^^^

No such thing as a 2x30 year lease. the maximum lease that is protected by law is a registered 1x30 year lease.

[tourleadersi]

I thought this post was about land, houses and condos? I don't know why we are discussing health care?? Where are expert moderators and overseers on this one? As for QUOTE: "It is not the Thai people that I have contempt for - it is the Thai bureaucratic crap and inefficiency, and their 'I am better than you attitude'." I can say similar things about my own country, which I think is worse than Thailand in this regard.

I do think the property ownership rules need to be revised to allow foreigners, WHO ARE MARRIED TO THAIS, to own land for personal residences & businesses. Upon thier death, ownership would have to revert back to a Thai. I hardly think such a law would undermine the equilibrium of the property market here. Prices are already inflated in some cases by foreign money, via purchase by the wife, ie the money is provided by the Farang husband.

Let us abide by the thai laws as quirky as they are!!,isnt 2x30year lease long enough,as soon as these laws change the developers take over and the concrete jungles begin, look what is happening to the east coast of australia, in the last 3 years our sleepy little hamlet has become a suburb of brisbane which is 25kms away wall to wall housing estates, our littlevillage has grown from 86 houses to 1500 and it is still growing the land prices have gone up by 600% , So maybe the thais are not so stupid after all, we are quite happy to put up with their laws and regulations so why should not everyone else Nignoy

Good point.

I wonder if there are any UK/US/Aussie laws that Thais living there find frustrating. I know my wife finds trying to get a simple holiday visa to the UK an 'emotional' experience....

[wilko]

I stoped reading the OP's post after the first paragraph

stoped? - Can't read, can't spell either!?

[bluetooth.th]

Many falaungs would probably find it hard to come up with the cash to buy an apartment or business outright but many would be in a position to make a 10 or 20% deposit. Have you thought about adjusting your business plan to include financing packages? Maybe talk to a bank or a private financer and find out about home loans for falaungs. EG. 10% deposit, work permit for 1 year, salary over 500 K per year would qualify for a loan for an apartment

Also maybe reduce the amount of cell calls, phone calls, faxes, SMSs and e-mails that you send to clients. A person receiving stacks of these on a regular basis may be put off by that

Opps I posted this in the wrong thread - sorry for that

Edited June 22, 2006 by bluetooth.th

[Nignoy]

^^^

No such thing as a 2x30 year lease. the maximum lease that is protected by law is a registered 1x30 year lease.

Oh my God!! in earlier thread , we went thoroughly into a lease which I signed in 1965 ,first 30 years was up in june 1995 , we are 11 years into the second 30 years, have had no problems outside of the death of the puyai ban who I had the original lease with, my wife is english, no thai relatives, just lots and lots of thai friends, Nignoy

[jdinasia]

possibly .. but if the lessor had died prior to the enstatement of the second lease it would not have had to be honored.

[Pakboong]

I see from the above postings that I received exactly the responses I thought that I would get. Some positive and some negative.

Some of the 'posters' completely missed the point! So, I'll try and restate the point.

Land prices have risen to the point that the 'average' Thai cannot afford to sell, purchase or build a home. Who benefited from the 2,000% (or more) increase in land prices? The 'average' Thai citizen? Who are the 'average' Thai citizen? The population of Thailand is approximately 66 million, give or take. The approximate population of Bangkok is - let's say - 8 million. Now take the 'resort' area's of Thailand and estimate another 4 million. So, what is left - 54 million! And who are these 54 million - villagers, city folk, farmers, unskilled laborers, etc.

Now back to the original point - The 'average', undereducated and uneducated Thai from the small towns, villages, etc. did not benefit from the sale of their land. These people, in many cases, had no choice but to sell their land so that their children could go to school, get out of debt, purchase equipment to make their life a little easier, to buy seed for their next crop, to buy fruit trees so that in years to come they may be able to live a decent life, etc. I could go on and on. So who benefited from the sale of land at 'rock bottom' prices? Who is in a position to know when a 'poor farmer' is in desperate need for money? The governmental elite's. And through GREED, THEIVERY, and CORRUPTION these 'elite's' take pity on the poor farmer, and others, to bail them out. Now then, if I am one of these 'elite's' and fairly well off, I do not have to sell this land I just 'stole'. I can wait and sell it to some 'stupid foreigner'! This might also be 'news' to some of you - and it is only a WAG (Wild Arse Guess) - many 'country' Thai cannot read or write the Thai language (maybe as high as 20%)! I have personally lived in 12 villages beginning as far back as 1967. There are far too many Thai's that only have a 3rd grade education. 'Farming' was more important. As a matter of fact, many children today have to quit school to help the family and are deprived of an education. Some of you are so blind that all you see is Bangkok, Phuket, Pattaya, CM, etc. As the title of this tirade states - Wake Up!

Some of you have stated that many Thai's have moved from the 'country' to Bangkok for a better life! In my original post, I stated that some 'foreigners' have blindfolds on. If you actually believe that the 'country' Thai's moved to Bangkok for a better life - you have 'blinders on'. If you believe that Thai's working in Bangkok (or any other city of size), living and sharing a one room apartment with several other workers is a better life, then you are stupid. I have relatives living and working in Bangkok for 130 baht per day with 5 people living in one room (that's sleeping, cooking, doing homework, etc. - with an outdoor shared toilet/shower)! For you that say this is an improvement from their previous why of life - I say 'nuts to you'! These people have 'no choice'. There are no jobs in the 'country'. And they are not happy living in Bangkok. There are 'millions' living in Bangkok exactly like this. So get your head out of the sand!

Some of you have the uncanny ability to be able to read my mind! So, another point that was completely missed or over-looked was my point about the Thai elite's, literally and figuratively, taking advantage of the undereducated and uneducated 'country' Thai citizens. I hate these governmental types that profess how well they are taking care of 'their' citizens. 30 baht medical plan! Do you know how long a person has to sit in a waiting room to get this 'great' service? Do you know that you may have to sit for over 8 hours to be told that the doctor cannot take any more patients? Because some of you are so knowledgeable about Thailand, name some other benefits that the government has provided to these 66 million people (I forgot to deduct the approximately 4 million elite's - MY asinine WAG - 'guess')? I 'pity' these 62 million, give or take, Thai people that have no recourse but to accept what is 'dished out' to them by a government that only think of themselves. Get my point - It's not the people - It's the (can't use profanity)!!!!!

Why do I say that the 60s, 70s, and 80s were better for the Thai people, in general? Some of you write about all the wonderful improvements that the people enjoy today. Yup, huge increase in deaths from motorcycles, drunk drivers, gun-shot wounds, assassinations, lack of 'proper' health care and a 'system' that does not hold doctor's accountable, etc. - Do you want me to go on? Oh, and the 'average' Thai cannot afford all the outstanding improvements that some of you mention. During the periods I mentioned above, the average Thai actually enjoyed life and were always happy. 'Free' roaming movies right to the doorstep of the village, 'free' health care, no fear of being robbed, 'free' county fairs, 'free' rice if you were poor and had none, 'free' transportation to the market, etc. And the education system was 'lousy' just as it is today. Do you want me to go on? The average wage was 20 baht per day (1967) vis today, 130 baht per day. My math is terrible but I would guess that is 2,000% increase!

And for my final 'tirade'. You people that have only negative 'one liners' are the undereducated or uneducated 'foreigners' that I tried to get the message to in my original post. If all you have is 'one liners' then you may need some further education. And, if you have 'never lived' in Thailand, again, you do not no what you are talking about - in other words, you 'have no opinion'.

I will not bore the forum members with anymore of my 'tirade' and 'stupid' opinions relating to why we are here. We all have reasons for being here. I will not go into mine. Except to say to the one individual who seems to think that I should be able to get a visa for my (new) family. Since you are so knowledgeable in this matter maybe you can tell me how to get a visa for my son who's 'foreigner' father 'dumped' him at the age of 10 months, never to be seen again! Of course, in Thailand you can manufacture a birth certificate for the right price. Maybe you no what that price is?

There are only 2 essential ingredients to having a middle class. They of course are the rich and the poor. The relative numbers of each group will vary but normally, the middle class takes it upon itself to manage the numbers. It doesn't really matter when the "good old days" actually took place; it is your relative position that remains essentially unchanged in the macro sense.

Now why would the middle class not want Thai Bar girls with Farang husbands and boyfriends to control the prime real estate in Thailand's resort areas? Get over the exceptions, they really don't matter all that much.

[Erwin1011]

Pakboong,

Let me add a little bit statistics here (source Bangkok Post : Annual supplement on Thai Economy)

2003 : Arable land : 32.88% out of 511,770 Km2.

2005 : 29.36%

2003 : workforce total 34.9 million

2005 : 36.3 million + 1.4 million

2003 : Agro Sector employed 13.9 million

2005 : 15.5 million + 1.6 million

2003 : Non agro sector employed 19.9 million

2005 : 20.6 million + 0.7 million

Can't remember the source on this one, but remember I picked it up from articles in The Nation and Bangkok Post

" Less than 20% of the population owns 90% of the arable land"

" Less than 1% of the population owns more than 20 Rai"

Average monthly wage in agro sector 2003 : 2420.3 THB

2005 : 3019 THB

Labour force by occupation 2003 : Agro 46.2%

Service 32.7 %

Industry 21.1 %

2005 : Agro 42.6 %

Serv 40.4 %

Indust 17 %

Just draw your own conclusion

[Tony Montana]

I think it would be good for the Thai economy if foreigners were allowed to buy property in Thailand with out all these bullshit rules,the people who make these crazy rules are second & third generation Chinese & they dont seem to do the average Thai no favours.IMHO these people are scared of foreigners moving in & doing a better job ie. building better quality condo's etc.

A lot of the infastructure work could be done by foreign companies who could run the project after the construction was finished ie.tolls,tickets etc,which would then be handed back to the Thai people after the construction costs were met plus interest.

Why are these people so scared of foreigners buying property or running buisness,because they know they would do a better job & would spoil everything.How does a police man who then becomes a failed buisness man & then becomes a billionaire because of these stupid, greedy & unfair rules.

[ray23]

I would have to admit Thailand has some of he most expensive dirt I have ever seen, speaking of farm land. As expensive if not moer then Californa's Central Valley farm land.

But comparable houses for 40k not anywhere I know about. But on the other hand it ain't Kansas Toto. Building codes and infrastructure simply do not compare By the way I'm talking Issan, not Hua Hin. There are many area in Thailand that I would really have to strugle to afford comparable housing to what I have here.

You mentioned that if you could go you would go, where would you go?

With the visa hazzles I can only gues your from the states who appear to have big problem wiht anything except fiancee visas.

The one thing I know is I'm not going back to the states, I left for reasons that were valid enough for me to leave in the first place and doubt there is much improvement. So are there not countires tht are attractive to you with less visa problems?

[Pakboong]

Pakboong,

Let me add a little bit statistics here (source Bangkok Post : Annual supplement on Thai Economy)

2003 : Arable land : 32.88% out of 511,770 Km2.

2005 : 29.36%

2003 : workforce total 34.9 million

2005 : 36.3 million + 1.4 million

2003 : Agro Sector employed 13.9 million

2005 : 15.5 million + 1.6 million

2003 : Non agro sector employed 19.9 million

2005 : 20.6 million + 0.7 million

Can't remember the source on this one, but remember I picked it up from articles in The Nation and Bangkok Post

" Less than 20% of the population owns 90% of the arable land"

" Less than 1% of the population owns more than 20 Rai"

Average monthly wage in agro sector 2003 : 2420.3 THB

2005 : 3019 THB

Labour force by occupation 2003 : Agro 46.2%

Service 32.7 %

Industry 21.1 %

2005 : Agro 42.6 %

Serv 40.4 %

Indust 17 %

Just draw your own conclusion

No arguement on these numbers. They don't really matter all that much. Perception does however. Thais are very Nationalistic. They want control over their country and are very reluctant to give away that control. There was an immediate need for foreign investment following the crash in the 90s. Opportunities were opened but were never intended to be long term. These "opportunities' were carefully worded and managed. Things have changed since that ugly time, perhaps only in perception but, the Middle class wants to regain their own percieved control over real estate. Clearly, farangs have priced them out of their own markets. The masses will control the the outcome of the voting process but the middle class has greater power as recently whitnessed with the Thaksin revote.

The middle class perceives that the under/working class have gained what used to be perceived as their's and they want it back. You really have to zoom out to view this in proper context. We tend to get lost in personal experiences. The greatest macro example in my lifetime was the 1975 pull-out by the US government. The Americans were asked to leave. I was here at Camp Samai San and myself and those around me were stupid enough to think that the Thais would be crazy to give up all that money. Problem was, we were hiring the underclass and were paying them 10 times what they would earn working in the private Thai sector. The collective damage done by this upsetting the Thai economy was inevitable. Prior to our being allowed to build bases and bomb Viet Nam, we were not permitted to gain our traditional foothold via a status of forces agreement. The Thai government would not commit. They pretty much expected what would happen and they would simply ask us to leave. This was all pre-planned. They received roads, bases, airfields, deep water ports and it cost them very little. The only price that was paid was the inconvenience of upsetting an economy that had functioned pretty well for several centuries.

[Gary A]

Without a doubt the price of land has gone up, WAY up. Blame it on the farangs? Not hardly. Five years ago my Thai wife bought two rai of land on the edge of a village for 30,000 baht. 15,000 baht per rai. Now just down the road and slightly out of the village land is selling for 100,000 baht per rai. I am the ONLY farang in the village and I have not bought anything. On the main road there is a 10 rai plot for sale. The sign said 500,000 baht. I asked my wife to call the telephone number because it was a nice location. She called and found out it was 500,000 baht PER rai. Prices up here skyrocketing cannot possibly have been influenced by farangs.

Edited June 29, 2006 by Gary A

[iansc]

but the services here, especially medical ,are the best in the world

That was good for an early morning chuckle.

Guess thats why Thais with money and folks with money from countries world wide fly to THAILAND for surgery, and not the USA.

The best medical services on the planet are available in the USA...its not even open to debate.

The first time I saw an Ambulance sitting behind traffic at a red light I was shocked, now Im used to watching what is most probably a person dying in the back of a minivan they call an ambulance sitting in traffic.

Id rather be operated on by a paramedic in the USA than a Thai doctor who went to medical school in Thailand.

DID YOU SAY THE BEST MEDICAL SERVICES IN THE WORDL ARE IN THE USA...WHAT A JOKE...HAHAHA

[wilko]

but the services here, especially medical ,are the best in the world

That was good for an early morning chuckle.

Guess thats why Thais with money and folks with money from countries world wide fly to THAILAND for surgery, and not the USA.

The best medical services on the planet are available in the USA...its not even open to debate.

The first time I saw an Ambulance sitting behind traffic at a red light I was shocked, now Im used to watching what is most probably a person dying in the back of a minivan they call an ambulance sitting in traffic.

Id rather be operated on by a paramedic in the USA than a Thai doctor who went to medical school in Thailand.

DID YOU SAY THE BEST MEDICAL SERVICES IN THE WORDL ARE IN THE USA...WHAT A JOKE...HAHAHA

agreed

[jackr]

but the services here, especially medical ,are the best in the world

That was good for an early morning chuckle.

Guess thats why Thais with money and folks with money from countries world wide fly to THAILAND for surgery, and not the USA.

The best medical services on the planet are available in the USA...its not even open to debate.

The first time I saw an Ambulance sitting behind traffic at a red light I was shocked, now Im used to watching what is most probably a person dying in the back of a minivan they call an ambulance sitting in traffic.

Id rather be operated on by a paramedic in the USA than a Thai doctor who went to medical school in Thailand.

DID YOU SAY THE BEST MEDICAL SERVICES IN THE WORDL ARE IN THE USA...WHAT A JOKE...HAHAHA

agreed

[AmeriThai]

Without a doubt the price of land has gone up, WAY up. Blame it on the farangs? Not hardly. Five years ago my Thai wife bought two rai of land on the edge of a village for 30,000 baht. 15,000 baht per rai. Now just down the road and slightly out of the village land is selling for 100,000 baht per rai. I am the ONLY farang in the village and I have not bought anything. On the main road there is a 10 rai plot for sale. The sign said 500,000 baht. I asked my wife to call the telephone number because it was a nice location. She called and found out it was 500,000 baht PER rai. Prices up here skyrocketing cannot possibly have been influenced by farangs.

I agree. It’s pretty hard to blame farangs for solely driving all the prices up.

I’m curious about the land going for 500,000 baht per rai. Has the land surrounding the 10-rai plot been developed? Or is it still vacant? Seeing how you mention it’s on a main road, I’m wondering if the land is seen as a prime location for a housing development.

[Donz]

I think it would be good for the Thai economy if foreigners were allowed to buy property in Thailand with out all these bullshit rules,the people who make these crazy rules are second & third generation Chinese & they dont seem to do the average Thai no favours.IMHO these people are scared of foreigners moving in & doing a better job ie. building better quality condo's etc.

A lot of the infastructure work could be done by foreign companies who could run the project after the construction was finished ie.tolls,tickets etc,which would then be handed back to the Thai people after the construction costs were met plus interest.

Why are these people so scared of foreigners buying property or running buisness,because they know they would do a better job & would spoil everything.How does a police man who then becomes a failed buisness man & then becomes a billionaire because of these stupid, greedy & unfair rules.

I think its a smart move buy the governemt actually, because the Thai's dont have the wealth like most foreigner at the moment and they dont want foreigner to come in and buy up all there lands.

They want Thai people to grow in wealth first IMO as they have come along way from 20 years ago.

The country is slowly developing and they want the Thai's to benefit from it.

[Gary A]

This plot is about 3 kilometers from a village that has nearly anything you would need to buy. It has a bank, supermarket, motorcycle dealers, garages and home supply stores. The property itself has a small stream running through it. There is a high spot that has a small shack on it. That spot would be ideal for a new home. The rest of the property is planted in young fruit trees that started to fruit last year. There is not enough population up here for a housing development. It would be a nice place to build on and if someone has an interest in taking care of fruit trees it would give at least some income.

I agree. It’s pretty hard to blame farangs for solely driving all the prices up.

I’m curious about the land going for 500,000 baht per rai. Has the land surrounding the 10-rai plot been developed? Or is it still vacant? Seeing how you mention it’s on a main road, I’m wondering if the land is seen as a prime location for a housing development.

[backflip]

"The best medical services on the planet are available in the USA..."

The most expensive, for sure.

[terrythesparky]

Hi can anyone tell me about how much it would cost to build a 3 bedroom 1 storey house in udon thani I already have the land

[kratindaeng]

oh dear, your statement was so long and i think you have a major bee in your bonnet, if you dont like it then dont live here. Simple chai mai? but i agree with you on a few things you mumbled in haste....

KD

[Pepe']

I'm sure everything will be just fine...

[ray23]

Hi can anyone tell me about how much it would cost to build a 3 bedroom 1 storey house in udon thani I already have the land

Boy thats a tough one Thia Style house 500 K, Farrang 750K up depending in what you want.

Don't forget to budget medical expense as your blood pressure rises LOL I would tell you this is not going to be easy, especially if you apply western thinking and most of us do.