Suddenly, hope for the South from an unlikely source: Thai editorial

[khunken]

I see absolutely no reason to agree with the OP. The Thai army have been accused of a very great number of grave human rights abuse in the Deep South and that was when they were at least nominally under the control of a civilian authority. As they are now free to do what they wish, which as far as I can tell is restricted to the threatened or actual use of force, why would things suddenly get better rather than worse? Have the army desperately been trying to bring about peace for the last decade only to hampered by the war-mongering civilians in Bangkok? Hardly. To be honest, the OP just sounds like more cheer-leading from The Nation for the junta.

Yes the OP's heading sounds positive while the main article is saying very little. I suspect that the army's current priorities are not in the south just now.

The rest of your post is not even half-right. The police as well as the army have been accused of human rights violations in the south too. If you take the time to read the article linked to by Simple1, you would discover that the army has not been control of the ISOC-type of bodies for many years.

The 'Pattani' problem is, in a nutshell, the kingdom of Thailand refusing to give some autonomy to an area mainly populated by Malays. I do doubt however that the army would be the one to grant the necessary local rule.

[Zooheekock]

The police as well as the army have been accused of human rights violations in the south too

Yes but that doesn't change anything about the army's wrongdoings and since this is a military junta, not a police junta, the human rights abuses of the police aren't really very relevant here.

If you take the time to read the article linked to by Simple1

Responding to the insurgency with brutality, the Thai government has been accused of abuse, torture and the extra‐judicial killing of Malay Muslims suspected of involvement in the insurgency. A very detailed January 2009 report by Amnesty International found widespread evidence that torture of suspects had become a standard operating procedure, routinely practiced by army rangers, and other military and police units, often carried out in unofficial detention centres. The consequences of these wrongdoings are profound and are simply likely to backfire....The heavy‐handed approach, the detentions without trial, and impunity of the army and police in the region are not resolving the conflict, and in fact can be seen as making the situation worse. The violence continues not least because the Southern Thai Muslims have not received just treatment, and any trust they once had in the authorities has been eroded

I'm not sure how that conflicts with what I said.

[ultimate weapon]

I see absolutely no reason to agree with the OP. The Thai army have been accused of a very great number of grave human rights abuse in the Deep South and that was when they were at least nominally under the control of a civilian authority. As they are now free to do what they wish, which as far as I can tell is restricted to the threatened or actual use of force, why would things suddenly get better rather than worse? Have the army desperately been trying to bring about peace for the last decade only to hampered by the war-mongering civilians in Bangkok? Hardly. To be honest, the OP just sounds like more cheer-leading from The Nation for the junta.

Yes the OP's heading sounds positive while the main article is saying very little. I suspect that the army's current priorities are not in the south just now.

The rest of your post is not even half-right. The police as well as the army have been accused of human rights violations in the south too. If you take the time to read the article linked to by Simple1, you would discover that the army has not been control of the ISOC-type of bodies for many years.

The 'Pattani' problem is, in a nutshell, the kingdom of Thailand refusing to give some autonomy to an area mainly populated by Malays. I do doubt however that the army would be the one to grant the necessary local rule.

Does the US give autonomy to states populated by mexicans like say texas?

[khunken]

The police as well as the army have been accused of human rights violations in the south too

Yes but that doesn't change anything about the army's wrongdoings and since this is a military junta, not a police junta, the human rights abuses of the police aren't really very relevant here.

If you take the time to read the article linked to by Simple1

Responding to the insurgency with brutality, the Thai government has been accused of abuse, torture and the extra‐judicial killing of Malay Muslims suspected of involvement in the insurgency. A very detailed January 2009 report by Amnesty International found widespread evidence that torture of suspects had become a standard operating procedure, routinely practiced by army rangers, and other military and police units, often carried out in unofficial detention centres. The consequences of these wrongdoings are profound and are simply likely to backfire....The heavy‐handed approach, the detentions without trial, and impunity of the army and police in the region are not resolving the conflict, and in fact can be seen as making the situation worse. The violence continues not least because the Southern Thai Muslims have not received just treatment, and any trust they once had in the authorities has been eroded

I'm not sure how that conflicts with what I said.

The Op is not about the military - it's about the south. Your quite obviously biased attack on the military needed some balance which I provided. I'm not deflecting any blame from the army's conduct in the south but it is pretty obvious that all parties - including the police & insurgents - are blameworthy.

The separate article doesn't conflict with what you said but it doesn't contain any snide remarks about what the army might have been doing before containing the abuse of power and violence in the rest of the country.

Edited May 30, 2014 by khunken

[khunken]

I see absolutely no reason to agree with the OP. The Thai army have been accused of a very great number of grave human rights abuse in the Deep South and that was when they were at least nominally under the control of a civilian authority. As they are now free to do what they wish, which as far as I can tell is restricted to the threatened or actual use of force, why would things suddenly get better rather than worse? Have the army desperately been trying to bring about peace for the last decade only to hampered by the war-mongering civilians in Bangkok? Hardly. To be honest, the OP just sounds like more cheer-leading from The Nation for the junta.

Yes the OP's heading sounds positive while the main article is saying very little. I suspect that the army's current priorities are not in the south just now.

The rest of your post is not even half-right. The police as well as the army have been accused of human rights violations in the south too. If you take the time to read the article linked to by Simple1, you would discover that the army has not been control of the ISOC-type of bodies for many years.

The 'Pattani' problem is, in a nutshell, the kingdom of Thailand refusing to give some autonomy to an area mainly populated by Malays. I do doubt however that the army would be the one to grant the necessary local rule.

Does the US give autonomy to states populated by mexicans like say texas?

Absurd comparison given that all US states have a degree of autonomy anyway.

Take off your US glasses - this is Thailand.

[seajae]

the fact that these people randomly kill women and children of both muslim and buddhist faiths shows they are not doing this for religious doctrine, the are simply terrorists that will never be happy with what they achieve as killing has become too much a part of their lives. Until the thai forces actually remove the leaders and the kill teams it will continue, they want the south to consist of uneducated people they can turn into their death squads through indoctrination. Offering them autonomy will achieve nothing as they will continue to want more and more, they need to be removed permanently. The armed forces know who the leaders are, they need to hit them hard and make sure that there are none left to cause this again, then maybe they will be able to offer the muslims some sort of autonomy that will defuse any further uprisings, you chop of the head to kill the snake, this is a hydra, they need to remove it all.

[Zooheekock]

The Op is not about the military - it's about the south.

The opening sentence:

The junta should grab this opportunity to do something decisive and constructive for the conflict-ridden provinces

The closing sentence:

The generals who seized power last week don't have to worry about opposition in Parliament. They should grab this opportunity and find the political courage to do something decisive and constructive for the deep South, something to show that they truly care about the people of this historically contested region.

In between these two (and you might like to identify the subject of those sentences) is lots of stuff about the failure of elected governments to solve the problem. To me, that sounds like an article trying to get us to believe that the brave young men in khaki can work wonders in the South. For the reasons I said, I don't think they can and I think The Nation is, as always, motivated by ideological concerns rather than a sane assessment of reality.

The separate article doesn't conflict with what you said but it doesn't contain any snide remarks about what the army might have been doing before containing the abuse of power and violence in the rest of the country.

Ah, I see. Objecting to the coup makes me biased but your waving your pom-poms as the handsome soldiers march by makes you objective. Got it.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Zooheekock

[khunken]

Ah, I see. Objecting to the coup makes me biased but your waving your pom-poms as the handsome soldiers march by makes you objective. Got it.

No, you haven't got it. There are two separate points here that you are trying to converge as one.

First, the army, police & insurgents have all committed crimes in the south. You deliberately just chose one of those & I introduced some balance. Got that?

Second objecting to the coup does make you biased - my support makes me equally biased. Got that too?

Putting words in others' mouths' is not necessarily biased, but is is not honest.

[Zooheekock]

First, the army, police & insurgents have all committed crimes in the south. You deliberately just chose one of those & I introduced some balance. Got that?

Look, this really isn't very hard. The OP is about the possibility of the army bringing peace to the South now that they have seized power. In a discussion of that, what the police and insurgents have done is of very secondary importance. There's no 'balance' to introduce - the topic just is the army in the South. If you want to start a topic on police human rights abuses in the South, go ahead. I'd be interested to read more.

Second objecting to the coup does make you biased - my support makes me equally biased. Got that too?

Good. So then accusing me of bias and of making snide remarks was just a pointlessly asinine comment of yours. Lovely. Glad that's all cleared up.

[baboon]

Not dumping useless/corrupt officials on them as a punishment might be a start. How would one like it if one felt one's home was being treated so shabbily?

[khunken]

First, the army, police & insurgents have all committed crimes in the south. You deliberately just chose one of those & I introduced some balance. Got that?

Look, this really isn't very hard. The OP is about the possibility of the army bringing peace to the South now that they have seized power. In a discussion of that, what the police and insurgents have done is of very secondary importance. There's no 'balance' to introduce - the topic just is the army in the South. If you want to start a topic on police human rights abuses in the South, go ahead. I'd be interested to read more.

Second objecting to the coup does make you biased - my support makes me equally biased. Got that too?

Good. So then accusing me of bias and of making snide remarks was just a pointlessly asinine comment of yours. Lovely. Glad that's all cleared up.

'the topic just is the army in the South'

Seems you haven't read the OP. It mentions Thaksin's heavy handed worsening of the insurgency, Yingluck and others got a mention too. I'm not falling for any propaganda-like take on the OP. It is about the south and the influence there of a whole lot of players. You're just not being honest here.

Also posting your & my quotes about bias in a different sequence to which they occurred is more playing with the truth. It's certainly not hard to maintain some degree of veracity.

[Zooheekock]

It mentions Thaksin's heavy handed worsening of the insurgency, Yingluck and others got a mention too.

Christ on a bike. Talk about pulling <deleted> teeth. Of course it mentions them. Their failure is the army's anticipated success. It's hardly subtle stuff, for Christ's sake.

[khunken]

It mentions Thaksin's heavy handed worsening of the insurgency, Yingluck and others got a mention too.

Christ on a bike. Talk about pulling <deleted> teeth. Of course it mentions them. Their failure is the army's anticipated success. It's hardly subtle stuff, for Christ's sake.

No one said it was subtle. Does that mean you agree it is about the south or do we continue with the 'asinine' stuff?

[Robby nz]

Don't know that because part of the population in the southern provinces are of Malay origin that they should be given autonomy, these provinces are part of Thailand and that isn't going to change.

You could compare with some provinces in the northeast where the people are prominently Lao, even speak a version of Thai that is closer to Lao so they would have just as much claim to autonomy.

Of course there are no terror attacks happening there.

The ability to elect their own Governors would be a start as it would in the rest of the country.

However it would seem that the ones doing the bombing and killing are very set in their ways and it would be very difficult to convince them to stop.

I don't see anywhere that there have been any reasonable claims by the terror element that could be given to them that would convince them to stop their killing.

Even if there were should those who are nothing but cold blooded murderers be forgiven ?

Would think that the general population down there would be very sick of the continual bombings where they cant even send their kids to school in safety.

After all there are only really a small group that is causing all the deaths and injuries.

[khunken]

Don't know that because part of the population in the southern provinces are of Malay origin that they should be given autonomy, these provinces are part of Thailand and that isn't going to change.

You could compare with some provinces in the northeast where the people are prominently Lao, even speak a version of Thai that is closer to Lao so they would have just as much claim to autonomy.

Of course there are no terror attacks happening there.

The ability to elect their own Governors would be a start as it would in the rest of the country.

However it would seem that the ones doing the bombing and killing are very set in their ways and it would be very difficult to convince them to stop.

I don't see anywhere that there have been any reasonable claims by the terror element that could be given to them that would convince them to stop their killing.

Even if there were should those who are nothing but cold blooded murderers be forgiven ?

Would think that the general population down there would be very sick of the continual bombings where they cant even send their kids to school in safety.

After all there are only really a small group that is causing all the deaths and injuries.

Read the article that Simple1 posted a link to - earlier in this thread.

To justify autonomy (devolution was and is written into the constitution) is easy - it saves separation from Thailand. If those in the NE who you call Lao (which most hate being called as such as it's a derogatory term) want autonomy, I haven't seen them asking for it.

Chaing Mai is another part of the country justifying autonomy as there are may there who would support it. Incidentally the autonomy would be nothing more that what Bangkok currently has - a local participation.

There may be only a handful of small groups causing the main anti-authority violence but they have widespread local support. Heavy-handed incidents such as Tak Bai & Krue Se have turned many of the population against the authorities as did Thaksin's dismantling of the SBPAC and the disastrous 'war on drugs'.

Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International & others have condemned the killing & torture of citizens by both sides. Far too much of the 'terrorists', 'murderers', and other name-calling people just are totally ignorant of what has gone on there and are fuelled by the usual anti-Muslim sentiment. Nothing has worked so far so it needs a group in authority to come up with a plausible solution. I doubt that the army is that group.

[englishoak]

It could start with a court martial of all military atrocities all police atrocities....and also insurgents caught, but it would have to start with the establishment bringing its own to justice first, only when Thailand starts to jail those of its own that have committed these crimes will there be a clear message sent there is justice now.

Zero tolerance is fine but it must include its own as well.

Somehow I cant see the military jailing its own and therefore unlikely to appear serious.

It is btw nothing like the reds other than its pretty clear there are and will be untouchables here if they are on a certain side, just like the military never hangs one of its own

[BSJ]

The military should build an Israel type security fence for starters. And increase coastal aND marine surveillance.

Secure the border first then use the army to sweep all the trouble makers into one small area then instigate the scorched earth policy.

[baboon]

The military should build an Israel type security fence for starters. And increase coastal aND marine surveillance.

Secure the border first then use the army to sweep all the trouble makers into one small area then instigate the scorched earth policy.

What border? How do you identify the trouble makers? How to avoid antagonising the innocent who want nothing to do with violence?

Was 'Full Metal Jacket' on telly last night during curfew?

[fab4]

Not dumping useless/corrupt officials on them as a punishment might be a start. How would one like it if one felt one's home was being treated so shabbily?

You're not talking about Thawil are you?

[baboon]

Not dumping useless/corrupt officials on them as a punishment might be a start. How would one like it if one felt one's home was being treated so shabbily?

You're not talking about Thawil are you?

No. I am not talking about any one individual. Just responding to the 'Send 'em to the south. That'll teach them' school of thought, if it can be called that.

[fasteddie]

Seriously?

The parallels are inescapable.

It wasn't so long ago that Red Shirts attacked peaceful protesters in Trat, murdering two innocent children. And if I remember correctly, the parents of the murdered children were actually Red supporters.

What we see now is the military dismantling the Reds. We should all hope that things learned dismantling the Reds can be useful dealing with the south.

It may not be easy, and doing the right thing often isn't. But that doesn't make it any less right.

And nothernjohn's post was very good. The Thais should indeed embrace the southerners, just as the recent leaders have embraced the farmers.

We should be a friend to those less fortunate, and ruthlessly pursue those who would harm another.

They are not dismantling the reds, that's some 25 million plus?

They are dismantling the Shinawatra influence, nothing like the problem in the south. With Thaksin and the Shin dynasty gone the "reds" will still have a massive say in what goes on in Thailand unless the "reforms" are something completely outrageous.

As for deaths and violence, all sides, parties, colors, creeds here have an equal number of idiots capable of atrocities,it's not limited.

You are correct it is not limited. But it is only carried out by the red shirts and the Muslim terrorist's.

One other thing the problems in the south have been around for a very long time. But it is only since the Shinawatra influence in the early 2000s that it has become so big.

Close to 6,000 deaths in ten years. As is typical of the Muslims they don't care who they kill they will kill other Muslims. Makes no difference to them.

"As is typical of the Muslims they don't care who they kill they will kill other Muslims. Makes no difference to them"

As opposed to Christians, who slaughter mainly Muslims by the thousands!

[farang62]

A golden opportunity now exixts to solve this B.S. in the South.

Now is the time to send some one to work and talk with the people involved.

It is time to listen on both sides.