"Saving face"

[hellohello123]

Lose the need to be always right and lose the need to always have to show that you are right.

I've learnt not to bother with showing a person who uses face as a lame excuse for behaving like an idiot

But a lot of times its not about proving who is wrong or right, often it's about getting what you paid for or deserve

Eg go to a restaurant, ask the waitress if a particular dish is vegetarian, order it and it comes out with meat in it, if you tell the waitress she made a mistake, and she starts crapping on about face, then you need to get the correct dish!

[kurnell]

I guess i need to learn how to handle it.

Any suggestions?

Stay in your own country ?

Wow, it didn't take long for that little chestnut to rear it's head.

[tifino]

...was teaching Radar concepts to a group of fellow military technicians on deployment. There were Thai and Malaysian Air Force techs in the group.

You teach and you reinforce by querying their understanding.....

...alll I got from those (particular) troops were blank nods, and I knew not to direct questions TO THEM at this time

[expatsupreme]

But thais have such a big boiling point. You can scream at them and they will always smile back and be polite. But when you come in Thai only part of BKK, you better watch out, but havent experienced this anyways. The boiling point of Thais is really really high, so you can really really make them angry till they explode. I remember only one Thai was angry at me, fitness instructor in the BKK, where not many falangs were around. He said to take my clothes off in the jacuzzi and I did not want to . Then he wanted to boot me out of the fitness but I started to scream at him, so we exchanged some words. But nothing more....

But you have to be carefull if you get into altercation with Thai, another Thai or several of them might step in, I have heard such stories in safest place on earth Pattaya.

Good to read that you were not tempted to loose your virginity in the jacuzzi.

But can you imagine my blood boiling that he almost banned me from fitness in my hotel because I did not want to share jacuzzin naked with other fags there? WHo know if they weere fags or not, but still, and male, female section was separated!!!!!

If there would be chicks in jacuzzi I would be up for it. But I gave up, took my shorts off after that......

<deleted>

[samran]

Saving face is pretty simple to understand and for the most part we do it in the west.

It is simply not going out of your way to embarrass people when especially in the long run it isn't needed.

Don't like the service? Smile, but don't come back.

Someone is wrong? Smile, and never talk to that idiot again (NB. Involves chosing not marrying one to begin with either).

It puts the onus in yourself to do a bit more homework in advance, and be prepared to go around rather than through people.

Instead of 'you are wrong' say 'but I read that it can be done this way and XYZ over there has done it that way'.

For times that you need to hold your ground there is a particular type of arrogance you can employ to project your superiority. But you use that sparingly. As the saying in the west goes. Being polite costs nothing.

Problem is too many farang here are used to being door mats. They don't realise that in the everyday run of the mill social interactions in Thailand people will generally hold them as a higher 'status' (until they prove themselves otherwise - read Pattaya). Given this you can from time to time employ effectively the arrogance I speak of and get away with it to your advantage.

[Berkshire]

Saving face is pretty simple to understand and for the most part we do it in the west.

It is simply not going out of your way to embarrass people when especially in the long run it isn't needed.

Don't like the service? Smile, but don't come back.

Someone is wrong? Smile, and never talk to that idiot again (NB. Involves chosing not marrying one to begin with either).

It puts the onus in yourself to do a bit more homework in advance, and be prepared to go around rather than through people.

Instead of 'you are wrong' say 'but I read that it can be done this way and XYZ over there has done it that way'.

For times that you need to hold your ground there is a particular type of arrogance you can employ to project your superiority. But you use that sparingly. As the saying in the west goes. Being polite costs nothing.

Problem is too many farang here are used to being door mats. They don't realise that in the everyday run of the mill social interactions in Thailand people will generally hold them as a higher 'status' (until they prove themselves otherwise - read Pattaya). Given this you can from time to time employ effectively the arrogance I speak of and get away with it to your advantage.

Well said, Samran. This whole "face" thing is not nearly as sinister as some farangs make it out to be. As you mentioned, it's done in the west as well. For example, western managers know that if they want to chew someone out, it's best to do it in private and not in front of the whole office. Prevents a "loss of face" unnecessarily.

Perhaps a better example for farangs in Thailand is this: If your buddy has just met a new Thai female with whom he is completely enamored with, and you meet her for the first time and your first impression is that she is a total skank, do you tell him so? Tell her so? I think not.

[samran]

Saving face is pretty simple to understand and for the most part we do it in the west.

It is simply not going out of your way to embarrass people when especially in the long run it isn't needed.

Don't like the service? Smile, but don't come back.

Someone is wrong? Smile, and never talk to that idiot again (NB. Involves chosing not marrying one to begin with either).

It puts the onus in yourself to do a bit more homework in advance, and be prepared to go around rather than through people.

Instead of 'you are wrong' say 'but I read that it can be done this way and XYZ over there has done it that way'.

For times that you need to hold your ground there is a particular type of arrogance you can employ to project your superiority. But you use that sparingly. As the saying in the west goes. Being polite costs nothing.

Problem is too many farang here are used to being door mats. They don't realise that in the everyday run of the mill social interactions in Thailand people will generally hold them as a higher 'status' (until they prove themselves otherwise - read Pattaya). Given this you can from time to time employ effectively the arrogance I speak of and get away with it to your advantage.

Well said, Samran. This whole "face" thing is not nearly as sinister as some farangs make it out to be. As you mentioned, it's done in the west as well. For example, western managers know that if they want to chew someone out, it's best to do it in private and not in front of the whole office. Prevents a "loss of face" unnecessarily.

Perhaps a better example for farangs in Thailand is this: If your buddy has just met a new Thai female with whom he is completely enamored with, and you meet her for the first time and your first impression is that she is a total skank, do you tell him so? Tell her so? I think not.

Brits and Aussies should understand the concept more than most.

We pretty much have it in our DNA 'not to complain', and say 'sorry' for something even when there is no need. Why? Cause we want to save (the other persons) face.

[A1Str8]

My suggestion is just too laugh at it coz its funny. Besides they are so bad liars that it makes it even more enjoyable when they actually think that anybody is going to believe them.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dotpoom]

We (Foreigners) are not that far removed from not wanting to "lose face" either. I have written here before about the lack of "open mindedness" in the world today. Nearly everyone now has a closed mind with their fixed ideas and opinions and it's as if they lose their self identity if they admit they might be wrong about something they believed. Why is that? Why do people find it so difficult to admit that if they had looked at a situation from a different perspective they could see how wrong their beliefs were. Same as not wanting to lose face.....what else is it?

[Suradit69]

I really love the country and its people but one thing i have still failed to get my head around is the Thai custom of saving face.

Any suggestions?

I suggest you spend some time reading through Thai Visa threads and realize that so many of the rants and the whining & moaning is from farang who feel they've suffered loss of face.

It's not the money, it's the principle ... Someone didn't smile at me = must mean THEY hate all farang

Also a fairly superficial reading of history, particularly farang history, should show you all the wars, disputes, conflicts caused by people who either have felt they needed to respond violently to save face or claim their "honor" has been sullied.

Road rage, going postal, school shootings, bullying. name calling, running for political office ... all a part of life back in farang land are either caused by anger at the loss of face or a vain attempt to recover face. Smearing an opponent with lies or being smeared and reacting in righteous indignation to it is considered de rigueur in farang politics.

You may love this country (but apparently not the people), but you don't seem to see them as you would people where you come from. To you their behavior is some how different from people you are familiar with. Try looking for similarities rather than obsessing over what you think are differences.

If you realize someone, Thai or farang, is feeling defensive about something they said, why would you press them into defending themselves? Try allowing someone a graceful exit from a faux pas rather than insisting you have to be right.

You could print these up and hand them around to people and save yourself the need to always have everyone acknowledge your omniscience ... one more face saving ploy of farang.

[Rockhopper]

Read:

"Thailand Fever" by Chris Pirazzi and Vitida Vasant

"Private Dancer" by Stephen Leather

"Working With The Thais" by Henry Holmes and Suchada Tangtonglavy

[somchy]

how about: east is east, west is west, and never the twain shall meet... ?

[kamahele]

I'm come to view "saving face" as cowardly and prideful, however this is not my country or my culture as I am a guest here so I grin and bear it.

[catinthehat]

The "face" issue is nothing but a shield with which to hide behind from accountability and responsibility which is taught at a very young age in developed countries.

[Globeman]

If you want to understand the sensation of 'losing face', imagine the worst embarrassment you ever had in your life - the worst public humiliation - and ideally one when you were in your childhood, so were particularly sensitive. Remember the feeling of being crushed like an insect, feeling like you had no value as a human being whatsoever, and how you just wanted the earth to open up and swallow you?

Right, now take that feeling and multiply it by 50 ... and imagine that that feeling could be set off by the smallest ill-timed perceived insult or slight. Then you'll have some idea of what it feels like to Thais to save face... and why they are so desperate to avoid it happening to them - and to those around them.

And why, if in that moment they have a gun to hand, they are likely as not to blow the head off the person who pointed out whatever inadequacy of theirs has caused this embarrassment... and then be sorry afterwards.

[slipperx]

Fortunately im british. We dont play the face game so much, but we do skirt around the flower garden a little. Just learn to be indirect or 'diplomatic' and voila, you understand 'face'. If you still dont understand, spend a month with copies of yes minister/prime minister and watch Sir Humphrey until you get the general gist.

im a brit too,

but im not sure i agree with this,

you live in a street, go buy a new car, i bet there would bo some down that street go and get a new car even if it skint them or on tick, just to show face, like we can afford one too,

i used to call it keeping up with the johnes,

ive seen it mant times, new conservetory,,, next door get one,,,

its all face

That's called jealousy and is a little different to face but jealousy is alive and veritably thriving in Thailand as well.

[mfharrison]

use it to your own advantage. i had a mate who bought a tv in the night market. within a week the tv had broken. he took it back and said you sell broken tvs to the guy. to save fave the guy gave him a bigger tv and its been working for 2 years.

dont complain about things learn how to work with them

[hellohello123]

If you want to understand the sensation of 'losing face', imagine the worst embarrassment you ever had in your life - the worst public humiliation - and ideally one when you were in your childhood, so were particularly sensitive. Remember the feeling of being crushed like an insect, feeling like you had no value as a human being whatsoever, and how you just wanted the earth to open up and swallow you?

Right, now take that feeling and multiply it by 50 ... and imagine that that feeling could be set off by the smallest ill-timed perceived insult or slight. Then you'll have some idea of what it feels like to Thais to save face... and why they are so desperate to avoid it happening to them - and to those around them.

And why, if in that moment they have a gun to hand, they are likely as not to blow the head off the person who pointed out whatever inadequacy of theirs has caused this embarrassment... and then be sorry afterwards.

Um talk about an exaggeration

The idea is correct however

The idea of face I think is ridiculous

When it gets in the way of solving problems or.creating unnecessary problems I think it's really unproductive and hypocritical

What also annoys me.is that they hide.behind the concept of face to shy away from their responsibilities and obligations

However its how they are programmed so you just have to bite your tongue when some idiot has given you the wrong order at a restaurant for example even though you confirmed the order with them three times, or they told you it's sold out and they are still serving it

[hellohello123]

Saving face is pretty simple to understand and for the most part we do it in the west.

It is simply not going out of your way to embarrass people when especially in the long run it isn't needed.

Don't like the service? Smile, but don't come back.

Someone is wrong? Smile, and never talk to that idiot again (NB. Involves chosing not marrying one to begin with either).

It puts the onus in yourself to do a bit more homework in advance, and be prepared to go around rather than through people.

Instead of 'you are wrong' say 'but I read that it can be done this way and XYZ over there has done it that way'.

For times that you need to hold your ground there is a particular type of arrogance you can employ to project your superiority. But you use that sparingly. As the saying in the west goes. Being polite costs nothing.

Problem is too many farang here are used to being door mats. They don't realise that in the everyday run of the mill social interactions in Thailand people will generally hold them as a higher 'status' (until they prove themselves otherwise - read Pattaya). Given this you can from time to time employ effectively the arrogance I speak of and get away with it to your advantage.

Well said, Samran. This whole "face" thing is not nearly as sinister as some farangs make it out to be. As you mentioned, it's done in the west as well. For example, western managers know that if they want to chew someone out, it's best to do it in private and not in front of the whole office. Prevents a "loss of face" unnecessarily.

Perhaps a better example for farangs in Thailand is this: If your buddy has just met a new Thai female with whom he is completely enamored with, and you meet her for the first time and your first impression is that she is a total skank, do you tell him so? Tell her so? I think not.

that's not quite how face works

Anotehr example

You go into a go go bar

A girl asks you to barking her

You say no for whatever reason

reason

You come back the next night and see another girl who is friends with the original bargirl and bar fine her

She loses face because you chose her friend

In developed world, that would either mean her friend was better then you, or the customers tastes were to her and not you

That's life that's business, move on, you win some you lose some, thinking about face in these situations is just unnecessary energy and agro, in my.opinion

[callaway]

Soutpeel, you really are a tosser. 14,000+ comments and the best you can cotribute is "stay in your own country". As i am sure your parents taught you that if you do not have something good to say then do not say anything. Yes i am being a hypocrite but cannot help myself. Ignorant people like you p#ss me off. If i could be bothered i would go back all your other posts and can imagine they would all be of the same high standard of contribution. In fact I read your 2 other posts on this topic and they contributed absolutely nothing. Then again I guess with 14000 plus posts you dont get out very often and communicate in real life to people, just do it all from behind a screen. Turn off the computer and go outside occasionally and you will see that the world isnt quite like it was when you left it for a computer.

Edited June 4, 2014 by callaway

[mrfaroukh]

Best way do the same with them and ignore when they lie. You know they lie that is good enough and you don't have to make sure they understood that.

[Torrens54]

You'll never undestand it, so dont waste time and effort trying.

Just let it "wash over you", no point getting frustrated by ONE Negative aspect of life in LOS.

Having said that, I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN!!!! and there are times when, I attempt to let it "wash over me", I think I'm DROWNING in it!

[Halion]

I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

Try living in a Condominium in Bangkok and then tell me that Thai's are more sociable than in the west.

What you say may well be true in rural or suburban areas but it is far from the truth in metropolitan Bangkok.

[joshstiles]

I agree with you....but this is Thailand.....not the UK or the US or Australia. You won't change the culture. It is in their genetic code. I hope this is not viewed as a slur or insulting. At least I did not say that they are "stupid" or anything that may get me a warning from the TV Gods.

What I find frustrating is the double standards that the people that run TV use. It's ok for them to slur someone or some group of people....but God forbid you should have a post or reply that does this.......you'll be warned.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right Rimmer? Hope you are proud of your one-star rating.....I see your problem now.

[Tomtomtom69]

I don't know why you find the concept so hard to understand

Thais are a lot more social than people in the West where one could live in a neighborhood for ten years and not know the people living four houses away

because they are more social their reputation (face) is a lot more important than people in the west.

It's the same in Thailand, in fact, I would say in Thailand you generally DON'T know your neighbors unless you happen to live in a rural part of the country and everyone living in your neighborhood have been living in the same place for decades, perhaps even generations. What I have stated is especially true in Bangkok. I have never seen very much interaction between my neighbors (I live in a moo baan btw) and Thais generally care about their family, friends and business partners/other people they have become acquainted with (in that order) rather than strangers, including neighbors they haven't been introduced to.

Therefore I don't think Thais are more social at all. On the contrary if anything. People in the west value their privacy, but so do Thais (in a different sort of way though - they will open up about certain things but not others). The main difference is Thais are open and social with their families and people they already know. They are much more comfortable living in multi-generational households than most westerners. But to suggest they are more likely to talk to neighbors etc. I have to completely disagree with. Either you are living out in the sticks, or your neighbors are exceptionally friendly or it's because you're a westerner.

Thai people I've been introduced to have always been quite friendly, even very friendly (in a way I would expect that) but as for neighbors really bonding and becoming family with each other, I strongly doubt that occurs much at all in Thailand. Most neighbors living in moo baans get along just fine, by not talking to each other unless necessary. They guard their belongings and privacy. That's what I've noticed.

I used to make similar assumptions to you when I first came to Thailand too, sirieneou, but after years spent living in various accommodation, vague smiles are about the most I can expect from neighbors.

[kleelof]

Did you ever meet a Thai or other SE Asian before coming to Thailand? Maybe you noticed how easy they were to get along with. It is because of this sensitivity to not offending others.

You may never be able to fully understand it, but if you try some, you will learn some good diplomacy skills you can use when you do return home.

[Docno]

One way of looking at it, to use very broad brushstrokes, is that western European societies enforce morality through guilt while east Asian societies enforce morality through shame. Guilt means that you feel bad for doing something wrong because it goes against your principles, values, and beliefs; shame is more about feeling bad over wrongdoing because others will think poorly of you. This very much ties into the notion of face. Western culture (however you might define that) was very much influenced by the Bible, with its Ten Commandments... principles/rules that everyone was expected to follow. Eastern societies were very much influenced by Confucianism, which placed more emphasis on one's network of social relations and obligations. [Of course, it's a little chicken-and-egg in terms of which way the influence actually went, and Buddhism was sometimes regarded as the 'enemy' of Confucianism because it disregarded relational obligations]. But there you have it... Rules versus relational obligations. Focus on principles versus focus on relationships. Different frameworks for defining right and wrong...

[Berkshire]

Did you ever meet a Thai or other SE Asian before coming to Thailand? Maybe you noticed how easy they were to get along with. It is because of this sensitivity to not offending others.

You may never be able to fully understand it, but if you try some, you will learn some good diplomacy skills you can use when you do return home.

That's a pretty good description. Better than what some of these other nutjobs are coming up with. "Face" is an Asian thing, related to maintaining harmony and peace. In other words, why insult someone and cause them to lose face (or as referred to in the west, to "publicly humiliate someone") when it's not necessary? That's all it is.

[Runamile]

You're so not getting this. It's all your fault. Fancy finding out when people lie, so making them lose face!

[hellohello123]

Did you ever meet a Thai or other SE Asian before coming to Thailand? Maybe you noticed how easy they were to get along with. It is because of this sensitivity to not offending others.

You may never be able to fully understand it, but if you try some, you will learn some good diplomacy skills you can use when you do return home.

That's a pretty good description. Better than what some of these other nutjobs are coming up with. "Face" is an Asian thing, related to maintaining harmony and peace. In other words, why insult someone and cause them to lose face (or as referred to in the west, to "publicly humiliate someone") when it's not necessary? That's all it is.

Yes it's. A pretty