Member With A Problem!

[corkscrew]

Why does it have to be all or nothing? Sounds very American to me.

Why cant you just cut down? Enjoy a drink, but dont go over the top.

If any of you actually stop drinking altogether, watch out for them in a year or two's time joining some prohibition lobby, or raising the drinking ages to 45.

Good luck if you feel you need to cut down, but keep things in perspective. Even Jesus enjoyed a drink!

I wake up every morning and the first thought that comes to my mind is "I am not drinking tonight". I Sh1t, Shower, Shave and make a coffee, turn the pc on and look at some porn then jump in the car that takes me to work.

By 9am I am worried that the local shop will have run out of my favourite brand of beer, if they have I decide to buy a few of the generic brand and send a taxi to look for a shop with my brand.

By 10am I am thinking that perhaps if they don't have my brand I might buy vodka instead, nah I like beer, but I like my favourite brand, perhaps vodka then.

In between these desires I have work to do.

millwall_fan it is hard for someone to understand the pull that alcohol has on someone that has not experienced it.

I have never been able to stop at one, I get the taste and not much can stop me from going for another drink. As a teenager I pawned all sorts of stuff in order to buy drink, now that I have a career (luckily, due to some very unfortunate experiences) and I am earning enough to keep a drinking habit plus buy houses, and keep money in the bank it is harder and hardser not to get slaughtered every night.

I will never understand a gambling addiction, but I do not doubt its pull and its effect on life.

I hope you can keep an open mind about this.

Thanks for your input.

Best

tuky

If you have the money go to some place where there is AA. Take a 28 day detox program; this latter program will really help....in fact, this is the only way to go.

[robitusson]

There is a Darwinian aspect to alcoholism. People who have been exposed to alcohol for a very long period of time have a lower rate of alcoholism: the Italians, the Jews and other Mediterranean folks for example. For them drinking predates the Bible. For people who have been exposed to it more recently, they have less tolerance: Eskimos, American Indians, and many Nordic peoples.

The early adopters of alcohol had their alcoholics killed off in horseback riding accidents or by inability to mate. So it was the genes of the non-alcoholics that prevailed. Darwin has not had time to work on the peoples of the far north.

Alcoholism is largely an inherited thing. An alcoholic can look at his family tree and clearly see bottles hanging from the limbs.

Where did you get this information from? Any links or evidence to back this up?

[robitusson]

[

[robitusson]

The 12 step programme to recovery works 4 years sober says it does.. anybody want to contradict me?

No contradiction here. It sure does work!...for about 5 - 10% of people. People who give up on their own have a higher statistical chance of success, they won't have demands placed on them to change their religious beliefs either. Keep staying away, it just gets better.

Sure....AA can claim 100% success to those who follow the program 100%

I'd be curious to know where this statistic comes from. Success for AA means new members "surrendering" to God. They're not interested in all alcoholics, only potential members.

[NovaBlue05]

Sure....AA can claim 100% success to those who follow the program 100%

I'd be curious to know where this statistic comes from. Success for AA means new members "surrendering" to God. They're not interested in all alcoholics, only potential members.

And if someone doesn't make it, then AA can claim they didn't follow the program 100%..No contradiction here. Perfect logic. I sampled a number of different (demographic-wise) AA groups but it wasn't for me. I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it however because it is definitely works for some. I certainly wouldn't stay away because of what I hear second hand.

[millwall_fan]

Well Tuky. todays the day. Day one of 90. How have you got on? what did you do with your day?

What about tomorrow?

If you really want to stop drinking completlely, good luck to you. If you fail today, dont give up trying, but maybe try more manageable steps.

I'd be far more worried if I was a Coke head like one of the previous posters.

[robitusson]

And if someone doesn't make it, then AA can claim they didn't follow the program 100%..No contradiction here. Perfect logic. I sampled a number of different (demographic-wise) AA groups but it wasn't for me. I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it however because it is definitely works for some. I certainly wouldn't stay away because of what I hear second hand.

Ok, so the statement that it works for 100% of people who follow the program 100% is an AA fact.

[Jai Dee]

If you fail today, dont give up trying, but maybe try more manageable steps.

Tuky's not going to fail... I won't let him.

[NovaBlue05]

If you fail today, dont give up trying, but maybe try more manageable steps.

Tuky's not going to fail... I won't let him.

I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I found that when I had been drinking heavy for a long time...especially spirits like Vodka, Whisky, etc...that the immediate de-tox can be both painful and dangerous to a persons system. I found that when I got past the 1st 3 days, it physically became significantly easier at which time I was better able to focus on the goal.. Sometimes, those first 3 days can be relieved by medication. In my case, doctors gave me valium, revia (naltrexone) and vitamen B which I took during this period and it really helped. Willpower is fine & dandy but sudden de-tox can be dangerous so, if you slip (I dont like the word "fail") the first time because of this, then try to get your doctor to prescribe you some meds to help you over the initial hump and do it again. They really calm your nerves and help you rest while you sweat it out.

Chok Dee Khrap!

[chonabot]

I'd be far more worried if I was a Coke head like one of the previous posters.

Don't Worry yerself Fella , Was, as in Past Tense.

All Good now!

[thankuverybig]

yes,i think you have to do some research,but i heard that giving up an alcohol addiction abruptly without any medication can be fatal,whereas knocking a drug addiction on the head is not so serious.

ive never drunk enough to be considered an alcoholic,so i dont really know what its like to go through it,but i would think that the first step in giving up,is being honest with yourself with why you drink (mentally),which isnt as easy as it sounds.

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(NovaBlue05 @ 2006-06-27 18:04:54) *

Sure....AA can claim 100% success to those who follow the program 100%

I'd be curious to know where this statistic comes from. Success for AA means new members "surrendering" to God. They're not interested in all alcoholics, only potential members.

Please explain this utterly ridiculous suggestion.

Why would AA want new members?

I'd say that AA success rate is 5-10 % higher than any other method I've heard of.

I have known and know thousands of alkies and NONE has stopped by themselves or another method.

I've known problem drinker too and some of them have managed to quit. There is a very big difference between a heavy or problematic drinker and an alcoholic!

[ayakiawe]

you love your kids huh? do u smoke around them? I hope you dont and nobody else does either!

Editorial

The Dangers of Secondhand Smoke

Published: July 1, 2006

The new surgeon general's report on secondhand smoke should demolish any lingering contentions that inhaling the fumes from smokers is simply a nuisance that should be tolerated, not a health hazard that needs to be eliminated entirely. The report persuasively argues that inhaling secondhand smoke can cause both immediate and long-term harm to the millions of Americans, young and old, who are still regularly exposed to it despite crackdowns in many states and localities.

Although the strength of the evidence varies from one ailment to another, the report cites many alarming findings. The smoke inhaled by adult nonsmokers increases their risk of heart disease by 25 to 30 percent and lung cancer by 20 to 30 percent. Such smoke is even more dangerous to children and infants because it is a known cause of sudden infant death syndrome, respiratory problems, ear infections and asthma.

Surgeon General Richard Carmona refrained from calling for a federal ban on smoking at work or in public places, but his report surely strengthens the case for such a ban either at the federal level or in any state or locality that has yet to crack down. The report concludes that halfhearted measures like separating smokers from nonsmokers, cleaning the air and ventilating buildings won't suffice. The only sure way to protect nonsmokers from the dangerous chemicals in secondhand smoke is to eliminate all smoking indoors.

[Neeranam]

What's smoking got to do with drinking?

I smoke but not around my kids.

My old man smoked around me indoors, and there's nothing wrong with me, but we're not American!!

[Khutan]

yes,i think you have to do some research,but i heard that giving up an alcohol addiction abruptly without any medication can be fatal,whereas knocking a drug addiction on the head is not so serious.

Quite so. There are documented cases of this.

With people with a strong physical addiction, it is standard procedure to give them a medicinal alcohol during detox. This is during the supervision stage of the detox - also known as "Red Alert"

The withdrawal symptoms can be fatal. Symptoms of trouble would be siezures, fits etc

[robitusson]

QUOTE(NovaBlue05 @ 2006-06-27 18:04:54) *

Sure....AA can claim 100% success to those who follow the program 100%

I'd be curious to know where this statistic comes from. Success for AA means new members "surrendering" to God. They're not interested in all alcoholics, only potential members.

Please explain this utterly ridiculous suggestion.

Why would AA want new members?

I've been discouraged by other posters from debating this here. So briefly, AA wants new members because it is a religious evangelising movement. Read the 12th step for a start. Also come back to me with absolutely any evidence of any kind that links a belief in God being necessary to overcome alcoholic addiction or any other addiction. My statement that AA is primarily interested in winning new sould for God is expressed countless times in their literature. Why is it ridiculous? If they were interested in alcoholics or alcoholism why has absolutely no new scientific information been included in their programme? Replace the word disease in the 12 step group literature with sin and you can get a pretty good idea of what their motivation is; getting people to surrender to God because they have no control over their sin. Let me know how far you want to take this. I have plenty of information, objective scienctific literature and sources about this.

I'd say that AA success rate is 5-10 % higher than any other method I've heard of.

I have known and know thousands of alkies and NONE has stopped by themselves or another method.

Well your experience doesn't reflect objective study done about this. As I said, let me know how interested you are in this and I can let you know the relevant information. People who give up on their own are statistically more likely to stay off than with AA. Fact.

I've known problem drinker too and some of them have managed to quit. There is a very big difference between a heavy or problematic drinker and an alcoholic!

Exactly. The definition of an alcoholic is an important matter and not one best left to a religious organisation that has used no new scientific or medical information in it's programme since the 1930's!

[Neeranam]

I've been discouraged by other posters from debating this here. So briefly, AA wants new members because it is a religious evangelising movement. Read the 12th step for a start.

I know a few atheists who do 12th step work - it's about helping yourself to remain sober.

Saving souls - don't make me laugh

People who give up on their own are statistically more likely to stay off than with AA. Fact.

Rubbish. I've experienced the opposite.

Do you know any alcoholics who have given up by themselves?

Have you ever worked in a treament/detox centre? Obviously not.

If you want I can give you the number of the head of one, who has experienced a huge success in patients joining AA. You can tell them about you experience, or rather lack of, and why they should not use AA.

Listen to experienced alcohoics who have tried to give up by themselves.

Tuky, how are you doing mate? I wish you all the best - I know how demoralizing, confusing and painful it is.

Exactly. The definition of an alcoholic is an important matter and not one best left to a religious organisation that has used no new scientific or medical information in it's programme since the 1930's!

If you ask any alcoholic if a doctor could help them, you'll find they all say no.

[Khutan]

....If you ask any alcoholic if a doctor could help them, you'll find they all say no.

I will add the comment that detox under medical supervision, can be a great kick-start to a program, be it AA, DD, live in etc.

Without some sort of a support program and also some counselling, the task is near enough impossible.

A good example (no this is not an advertisement) of somewhere to do supervised Detox, is The Northside Clinic in Sydney.

[robitusson]

I've been discouraged by other posters from debating this here. So briefly, AA wants new members because it is a religious evangelising movement. Read the 12th step for a start.

I know a few atheists who do 12th step work - it's about helping yourself to remain sober.

Saving souls - don't make me laugh

Helping yourself to remain sober. Nice platitude. Besides, even if that were true, it's obviously not working for at least 90% of people who use the AA 12 step method to get sober.

People who give up on their own are statistically more likely to stay off than with AA. Fact.

Rubbish. I've experienced the opposite.

I did not say your experience is somehow untrue. What I said was, it is it does not reflect the facts about the situation.

Do you know any alcoholics who have given up by themselves?

Have you ever worked in a treament/detox centre? Obviously not.

If you want I can give you the number of the head of one, who has experienced a huge success in patients joining AA. You can tell them about you experience, or rather lack of, and why they should not use AA.

My lack of experience? Have you read my other posts. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Do you think I've made this up? It's not my fault AA is proven to be largely unsuccessful. Investigate it and find out the facts.

Listen to experienced alcohoics who have tried to give up by themselves.

Yes. I agree. Listen to them.

Tuky, how are you doing mate? I wish you all the best - I know how demoralizing, confusing and painful it is.

Exactly. The definition of an alcoholic is an important matter and not one best left to a religious organisation that has used no new scientific or medical information in it's programme since the 1930's!

If you ask any alcoholic if a doctor could help them, you'll find they all say no.

Well if mean if you ask any AA member if a doctor can help them they'll say no. Though they'll also say an imaginary being can. Medical and scientific knowledge or pseudo-religious rhetoric? I know which I choose.

[sbk]

Well, robitusson, certainly your experience is your own but hardly can you call yours indicative of the entire AA experience.

Also, just because YOU don't believe in spirituality does not make it invalid. Nothing is sadder than a mind so closed it won't allow others the validity of their own opinions.

And please, show us the source of your facts regarding AA's long term success rate compared to that of someone who goes through purely a medical experience. If you can't back your statistics up with some kind of study then may I suggest you refrain from posting such opinions in the future?

[robitusson]

Well, robitusson, certainly your experience is your own but hardly can you call yours indicative of the entire AA experience.

I didn't say it was my experience. I do have some experience with AA. What I'm tallking about here is what I have learned about it, not my own experience. I am talking about the experience of the majority of people with AA as documented by numerous sources.

Also, just because YOU don't believe in spirituality does not make it invalid. Nothing is sadder than a mind so closed it won't allow others the validity of their own opinions.

I didn't say I don't believe in spirituality or anything like it. Anyone is entitled to their opinion about this and I hav given no indication of any close-mindedness on my part. Close-minded is maintaining that 60-70 year old information abouit a serious condition is the be-all and end-all of material on the matter. Close-mindedness is completely shutting out any new information on a subject which affects people who are at their most vunerable. Close-mindedness is being totally shut off to the possiblity that a religious answer to a psychological and medical condition may be misguided at best.

And please, show us the source of your facts regarding AA's long term success rate compared to that of someone who goes through purely a medical experience. If you can't back your statistics up with some kind of study then may I suggest you refrain from posting such opinions in the future?

Back up some claims about AA! I never "suggested" that anyone else refrain from posting about AA despite it's hopelessly unsuccessful documented track record and extremely dubious motivations. Sorry if you don't like what I'm pointing out. I don't see how remaining silent on this will help alcoholics and problem drinkers.

................................................................................

...........................................................

http://www.unhooked.com/sep/persip1.htm

But what of those AA members who do not attain sobriety? And, unlike the case in 1939, far fewer than 50% of members maintain continuous sobriety for any appreciable period of time Several studies report statistics or estimates that indicate that nationally, less than 10% of recovering alcoholics maintain sobriety for more than one year. That is an incredibly low success rate! Were this percentage evident in any other area of medical treatment, it would stimulate much research into alternative or revised treatment methodologies.

................................................................................

.............................................................

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates.

................................................................................

...............................................................

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chapter7.htm

The survey brochure indicates that 45% of members have at least five years’ sobriety. Using the figure of five years’ sobriety as the criterion of success, one arrives at an AA success rate of approximately 2.6% to 3.5% (in comparison with the total number of “alcoholics” in the U.S. and Canada). And the success rate is lower than that if one defines “success” as AA does—as lifelong abstinence.

................................................................................

...........................................................

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/r_intro.htm

"Unfortunately, even though the research conducted by the members of our Division and other psychologists forms most of the scientific foundation for addiction treatment, in practice scientific knowledge has little impact on addiction treatment in the United States, and psychologists typically play a small role in addiction treatment. Instead, we have a treatment system which is almost entirely based on an approach that has little evidence of success, and which attempts to treat human diversity with a one-size-fits-all approach. This approach is implemented primarily by drug and alcohol counselors who have far less training than psychologists or other mental health professionals."

"The primary responsibility for the current state of affairs in addic- tion treatment lies with present treatment providers, who continue to misinform the public about the diversity and effectiveness of treat- ment and support groups."

"The central precepts of the disease concept of alcoholism have already been refuted or remain unconfirmed. In addition to its lack of scientific basis, there are also powerful public health arguments to be made for jettisoning the disease hypothesis the foundation of 12-step treatment as a basis of public policy."

"Although for some working the steps may be the only road to success, the number of such individuals is probably very small."

A. Thomas Horvath, Ph.D., FAClinP

President of the American Psychological Association's Division on Addictions

................................................................................

............................................

AA's 12th step motivations.

"Every year 1,000,000 Americans are coerced into Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, and 12-step treatment.

Many of these people are neither alcoholics or drug addicts. Even for those who do abuse alcohol or drugs, coerced treatment does little good, and often amounts to little more than religious indoctrination."

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/r_chap_4.htm

................................................................................

............................................................

The origins of the disease concept of alcoholism and the addiction treatment industry.

"It was Jellinek's "scientific" study that opened the door for the medical communities' support. E.M. Jellinek's study was funded by the efforts of Marty Mann and R. Brinkley Smithers. And, like so many other circumstances involving Jellinek and Marty Mann, the study was bogus if not outright fraudulent. The surveys he based his conclusions on were from a hand picked group of alcoholics. There were 158 questionnaires handed out and 60 of them were suspiciously not included. His conclusion was based on less than 100 hand picked alcoholics chosen by Marty Mann. Ms. Mann, of course, had a personal agenda to remove the stigma about the homeless and dirty alcoholic or "bowery drunk" in order to gain financial support from the wealthy. By removing the stigma, the problem becomes one of the general population, which would then include the wealthy. The first step was Jellinek publishing his findings in his book "The Stages of Alcoholism" which was based on the selective study. Later, E.M. Jellinek was asked by Yale University to refute his own findings. He complied. E.M. Jellinek's Stages of Alcoholism did not stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Early in the 20th Century, the validity of the disease concept was often debated in medical circles. However, in 1956 the American Medical Association (AMA) proclaimed alcoholism an "illness." Then, in 1966, the AMA proclaimed alcoholism a disease. The decision was wrapped in controversy. Historically, Marty Mann had her hand in much of this and manipulated information and doctors into agreeing with the disease concept. Marty Mann used her position as founder of the NCA (National Counsel for Alcoholism) to promote the disease concept through Jellinek and a somewhat clandestine relationship with the founder of the NIAAA (National Institute for Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse) whose founder worked with Marty Mann during the institute's early development. The founder of NIAAA (R. Brinkley Smithers) was a major contributor to and promoter of the disease concept. It was his money that actually funded Jellinek's work at Yale. Smithers was also responsible for gaining insurance coverage for patients in treatment (hence the 28 day program). Smithers was certainly not altruistic in his efforts. At that time he had already launched a treatment program for which he was lobbying for insurance payments. Acceptance by the medical community was the only way this could happen; alcoholism had to be a medical problem in order for medical insurance to pay for programs. We can see the influence of these "advances" everyday in treatment programs. Today the treatment industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, with insurance paying the lion's share of the costs."

http://www.baldwinresearch.com/alcoholism.cfm

You did ask sbk. I am not being deliberately antagonistic. I think that this needs to be pointed out to give people information to make a choice.

[medz]

I really wish you the best on your efforts.

[kayo]

I don´t think definitions really matter.

What matters is that the people become aware of where they are at, and where they want to go.

but that´s just me.

[kat]

Robitusson:

I just glanced over your points, and just want to respond briefly for now. I'm sorry if I've missed something, because I don't have the focus to read everything carefully at the moment. It seems to me you have two major points:

AA requires you to surrender to God;

And the success rates of AA are significantly lower than quitting on your own.

On your first point:

AA does not require you to surrender to God. It requires you to surrender to a higher power of your own design, and to admit your powerlessness over alcohol. There is a lot about it that is off-putting for many people at first, until one becomes accustomed to the method of group sharing. I know that almost everyone that I met at those meetings went regularly, and had sponsors in the program.

Repeat: the program does not require you to submit to God, but to a force greater than yourself.

Secondly: One of your major points about the low success rate mentions the condition of CONTINUAL sobriety. Many alcoholics and addicts fall off the wagon numerous times before forging a continual road. What exactly is the CONTINUAL rate of sobriety for people going it alone? I think that would be quite hard to sample in a reliable way that is equal to the measures of an established fellowship with more reliable, measureable results.

[Neeranam]

My lack of experience? Have you read my other posts. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes I've read your other posts and think you are speaking crap. You have some resentment against AA as a whole because your father became involved with some religious nuts that he met in AA. Maybe he wasn't even an alcoholic as you said you preferred it when he was drinking. You search the internet for anything that tries to bring them down. There is a lot more positive things to be found than negative about AA - you are deluded

Let us hear all about the people you know who have got better by themselves and tell us how they did it, then maybe they can help the OP here get better.

I'll ask you again - do you know any alcoholic who has given up drinking for a long time by himself?

Here is a correspondence between a respected doctor and the founder of AA, do you know better than them?

A spiritual solution was necessary for this alkie, I tried all the best medical treatment available.

(Mentioned on pages 26 & 27 of the Big Book)

My dear Dr. Jung:

This letter of great appreciation has been very long overdue. May I first introduce myself as Bill W., a co-founder of the Society of Alcoholics Anonymous. Though you have surely heard of us, I doubt if you are aware that a certain conversation you once had with one of your patients, a Mr. Rowland H., back in the early 1930's, did play a critical role in the founding of our Fellowship.

Though Rowland H. has long since passed away, the recollections of his remarkable experience while under treatment by you has definitely become part of AA history. Our remembrance of Rowland H.'s statements about his experience with you is as follows:

Having exhausted other means of recovery from his alcoholism, it was about 1931 that he became your patient. I believe he remained under your care for perhaps a year. His admiration for you was boundless, and he left you with a feeling of much confidence.

To his great consternation, he soon relapsed into intoxication. Certain that you were his "court of last resort," he again returned to your care. Then followed the conversation between you that was to become the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous.

My recollection of his account of that conversation is this: First of all, you frankly told him of his hopelessness, so far as any further medical or psychiatric treatment might be concerned. This candid and humble statement of yours was beyond doubt the first foundation stone upon which our Society has since been built.

Coming from you, one he so trusted and admired, the impact upon him was immense. When he then asked you if there was any other hope, you told him that there might be, provided he could become the subject of a spiritual or religious experience - in short, a genuine conversion. You pointed out how such an experience, if brought about, might remotivate him when nothing else could. But you did caution, though, that while such experiences had sometimes brought recovery to alcoholics, they were, nevertheless, comparatively rare. You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for the best. This I believe was the substance of your advice.

Shortly thereafter, Mr. Rowland H. joined the Oxford Groups, an evangelical movement then at the height of its success in Europe, and one with which you are doubtless familiar. You will remember their large emphasis upon the principles of self-survey, confession, restitution, and the giving of oneself in service to others. They strongly stressed meditation and prayer. In these surroundings, Rowland H. did find a conversion experience that released him for the time being from his compulsion to drink.

Returning to New York, he became very active with the "O.G." here, then led by an Episcopal clergyman, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker. Dr. Shoemaker had been one of the founders of that movement, and his was a powerful personality that carried immense sincerity and conviction.

At this time (1932-34) the Oxford Groups had already sobered a number of alcoholics, and Rowland, feeling that he could especially identify with these sufferers, addressed himself to the help of still others. One of these chanced to be an old schoolmate of mine, Edwin T. ("Ebby"). He had been threatened with commitment to an institution, but Mr. H. and another ex-alcoholic "O.G." member procured his parole and helped to bring about his sobriety.

Meanwhile, I had run the course of alcoholism and was threatened with commitment myself. Fortunately I had fallen under the care of a physician - a Dr. William D. Silkworth - who was wonderfully capable of understanding alcoholics. But just as you had given up on Rowland, so had he given me up. It was his theory that alcoholism had two components - an obsession that compelled the sufferer to drink against his will and interest, and some sort of metabolism difficulty which he then called an allergy. The alcoholic's compulsion guaranteed that the alcoholic's drinking would go on, and the allergy made sure that the sufferer would finally deteriorate, go insane, or die. Though I had been one of the few he had thought it possible to help, he was finally obliged to tell me of my hopelessness; I, too, would have to be locked up. To me, this was a shattering blow. Just as Rowland had been made ready for his conversion experience by you, so had my wonderful friend, Dr. Silkworth, prepared me.

Hearing of my plight, my friend Edwin T. came to see me at my home where I was drinking. By then, it was November 1934. I had long marked my friend Edwin for a hopeless case. Yet there he was in a very evident state of "release" which could by no means accounted for by his mere association for a very short time with the Oxford Groups. Yet this obvious state of release, as distinguished from the usual depression, was tremendously convincing. Because he was a kindred sufferer, he could unquestionably communicate with me at great depth. I knew at once I must find an experience like his, or die.

Again I returned to Dr. Silkworth's care where I could be once more sobered and so gain a clearer view of my friend's experience of release, and of Rowland H.'s approach to him.

Clear once more of alcohol, I found myself terribly depressed. This seemed to be caused by my inability to gain the slightest faith. Edwin T. again visited me and repeated the simple Oxford Groups' formulas. Soon after he left me I became even more depressed. In utter despair I cried out, "If there be a God, will He show Himself." There immediately came to me an illumination of enormous impact and dimension, something which I have since tried to describe in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and in "AA Comes of Age", basic texts which I am sending you.

My release from the alcohol obsession was immediate. At once I knew I was a free man. Shortly following my experience, my friend Edwin came to the hospital, bringing me a copy of William James' "Varieties of Religious Experience". This book gave me the realization that most conversion experiences, whatever their variety, do have a common denominator of ego collapse at depth. The individual faces an impossible dilemma. In my case the dilemma had been created by my compulsive drinking and the deep feeling of hopelessness had been vastly deepened by my doctor. It was deepened still more by my alcoholic friend when he acquainted me with your verdict of hopelessness respecting Rowland H.

In the wake of my spiritual experience there came a vision of a society of alcoholics, each identifying with and transmitting his experience to the next - chain style. If each sufferer were to carry the news of the scientific hopelessness of alcoholism to each new prospect, he might be able to lay every newcomer wide open to a transforming spiritual experience. This concept proved to be the foundation of such success as Alcoholics Anonymous has since achieved. This has made conversion experiences - nearly every variety reported by James - available on an almost wholesale basis. Our sustained recoveries over the last quarter century number about 300,000. In America and through the world there are today 8,000 AA groups.

So to you, to Dr. Shoemaker of the Oxford Groups, to William James, and to my own physician, Dr. Silkworth, we of AA owe this tremendous benefaction. As you will now clearly see, This astonishing chain of events actually started long ago in your consulting room, and it was directly founded upon your own humility and deep perception.

Very many thoughtful AAs are students of your writings. Because of your conviction that man is something more than intellect, emotion, and two dollars worth of chemicals, you have especially endeared yourself to us.

How our Society grew, developed its Traditions for unity, and structured its functioning will be seen in the texts and pamphlet material that I am sending you.

You will also be interested to learn that in addition to the "spiritual experience, "many AAs report a great variety of psychic phenomena, the cumulative weight of which is very considerable. Other members have - following their recovery in AA - been much helped by your practitioners. A few have been intrigued by the "I Ching" and your remarkable introduction to that work.

Please be certain that your place in the affection, and in the history of the Fellowship, is like no other.

Gratefully yours,

William G. W.

Co-founder Alcoholics Anonymous

Reply by Dr. Jung to Bill W.

Jan. 30, 1961

Mr. William G. Wilson

Alcoholics Anonymous

Box 459 Grand Central Station

New York, 17, N.Y.

Dear Mr. Wilson,

your letter has been very welcome indeed.

I had no news from Roland H. anymore and often wondered what has been his fate. Our conversation which he has adequately reported to you had an aspect of which he did not know. The reason that I could not tell him everything was that those days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I said. I had found out that I misunderstood in every possible way. Thus I was very careful when I talked to Roland H. But what I really thought about, was the result of many experiences with men of his kind.

His craving for alcohol was the equivalent on a low level of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in mediaeval language: the union with God. 1)

How could one formulate such an insight in a language that is not misunderstood in our days?

The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is, that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path, which leads you to higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or thought a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I see from your letter that Roland H. has chosen the second way, which was, under the circumstances, obviously the best one.

I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world, lends the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by a real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. An ordinary man, not protected by an action from above and isolated in society cannot resist the power or evil, which is called very aptly the Devil. But the use of such words arouse so many mistakes that one can only keep aloof from them as much as possible.

These are the reasons why I could not give a full and sufficient explanation to Roland H. but I am risking it with you because I conclude from your very decent and honest letter, that you have acquired a point of view above the misleading platitudes, one usually hears about alcoholism.

You see, Alcohol in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spirituus contra spiritum.

Thanking you again for your kind letter

I remain

yours sincerely

1)"As the heart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God." ( Psalm 42,1)

[Jai Dee]

I really wish you the best on your efforts.

Thanks medz.

I am on alcohol free day 4.

Keep up the good work and encouragement everyone.

And... congrats Neeranam.

You beat it!

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter how you beat it... different methods work for different folks.

[sbk]

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter how you beat it... different methods work for different folks.

Precisely, a point that seems lost on some people. AA does work for some, Medical treatment works for some. Does it really matter what method is used as long as it works????

Robitusson: as for your "proof" well, mainly it seems to be supposition based on a few research programs, one of your websites clearly has an agenda of their own to promote as well. As for your declaration that you aren't opposed to spirituality, well, since you constantly refer to psuedo religious rhetoric and seem to deliberately misrepresent AA's teachings of spirituality as being religious, then, yes, I think you are being closed minded and antaganostic. But, hey, thats just my opinion, which, believe it or not, I have as much right to as you have yours.

[robitusson]

Robitusson:

I just glanced over your points, and just want to respond briefly for now. I'm sorry if I've missed something, because I don't have the focus to read everything carefully at the moment. It seems to me you have two major points:

AA requires you to surrender to God;

And the success rates of AA are significantly lower than quitting on your own.

On your first point:

AA does not require you to surrender to God. It requires you to surrender to a higher power of your own design, and to admit your powerlessness over alcohol. There is a lot about it that is off-putting for many people at first, until one becomes accustomed to the method of group sharing. I know that almost everyone that I met at those meetings went regularly, and had sponsors in the program.

Repeat: the program does not require you to submit to God, but to a force greater than yourself.

As you said you glanced over the points. I would urge you to read the links I posted and then disagree by all means but there is a lot more to this than the view you have presented above. What you have written sounds very reasonable and who could disagree? However this is not the full story and it is not up to me to make you read more about it.

Secondly: One of your major points about the low success rate mentions the condition of CONTINUAL sobriety. Many alcoholics and addicts fall off the wagon numerous times before forging a continual road. What exactly is the CONTINUAL rate of sobriety for people going it alone? I think that would be quite hard to sample in a reliable way that is equal to the measures of an established fellowship with more reliable, measureable results.

You've touched upon two issues. Firstly the definition of what is alcoholism or an alcoholic and secondly; what defines sobriety. These are both open to some interpretation and there are many different views on it. The view of AA is that alcoholism is a disease which suits their programme although this has been dismissed by many sources since the original idea came about in the 1930's which AA has maintained without including any new information or study since then.

The second is the notion of sobriety. I agree most problem drinkers and alcoholics repeatedly fall off the wagon in their attempt to stay sober. I stressed this in one of my earlier points. AA defines sobriety as life-long abstanaince and using this definition it has negligble success compared with giving up on ones own.

[robitusson]

My lack of experience? Have you read my other posts. I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Yes I've read your other posts and think you are speaking crap. You have some resentment against AA as a whole because your father became involved with some religious nuts that he met in AA. Maybe he wasn't even an alcoholic as you said you preferred it when he was drinking.

Ignorant and cowardly insults aimed at my father might may you feel better about your pseudo-religion and yourself but it doesn't change the points I've made, the sources I've shown and the verifiable facts. Your sponsor would be proud of the AA-speak you use. "You've got a resentment" Don't tell me, I need a Higher Power in my life to help my incurable, bad, scary disease.

You search the internet for anything that tries to bring them down. There is a lot more positive things to be found than negative about AA - you are deluded

Good! Let there be positive things. Point them out by all means. There are, however much you may not like it, a great many negative things and me not pointing them out doen't mean they're going to evaporate. Take some responsability for your movement!

Let us hear all about the people you know who have got better by themselves and tell us how they did it, then maybe they can help the OP here get better.

I'll ask you again - do you know any alcoholic who has given up drinking for a long time by himself?

According to AA alcoholics have an incurable disease. I don't know anyone who has this because it is a 70 year old myth. Sorry to burst your bubble. I know plenty of people who AA would call alcoholics and drug addicts who gave up drinking or cut down to sensible levels by themselves. So yes.

Here is a correspondence between a respected doctor and the founder of AA, do you know better than them?

I do now. Yes. The reason is because I have kept an open mind to what addiction and alcoholism are, unlike AA which has not changed since before this letter was written. At the time this probably represented the extent of knowledge about the topic. Things have changed since then. Unfortunately AA would have to give up it's evangelising ways if these new ideas were incorporated into it's programme and we all know they'd never do that because that's where their real motivations lie.

A spiritual solution was necessary for this alkie, I tried all the best medical treatment available.

(Mentioned on pages 26 & 27 of the Big Book)

My dear Dr. Jung:

This letter of great appreciation has been very long overdue. May I first introduce myself as Bill W., a co-founder of the Society of Alcoholics Anonymous. Though you have surely heard of us, I doubt if you are aware that a certain conversation you once had with one of your patients, a Mr. Rowland H., back in the early 1930's, did play a critical role in the founding of our Fellowship.

Though Rowland H. has long since passed away, the recollections of his remarkable experience while under treatment by you has definitely become part of AA history. Our remembrance of Rowland H.'s statements about his experience with you is as follows:

Having exhausted other means of recovery from his alcoholism, it was about 1931 that he became your patient. I believe he remained under your care for perhaps a year. His admiration for you was boundless, and he left you with a feeling of much confidence.

To his great consternation, he soon relapsed into intoxication. Certain that you were his "court of last resort," he again returned to your care. Then followed the conversation between you that was to become the first link in the chain of events that led to the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous.

My recollection of his account of that conversation is this: First of all, you frankly told him of his hopelessness, so far as any further medical or psychiatric treatment might be concerned. This candid and humble statement of yours was beyond doubt the first foundation stone upon which our Society has since been built.

Coming from you, one he so trusted and admired, the impact upon him was immense. When he then asked you if there was any other hope, you told him that there might be, provided he could become the subject of a spiritual or religious experience - in short, a genuine conversion. You pointed out how such an experience, if brought about, might remotivate him when nothing else could. But you did caution, though, that while such experiences had sometimes brought recovery to alcoholics, they were, nevertheless, comparatively rare. You recommended that he place himself in a religious atmosphere and hope for the best. This I believe was the substance of your advice.

Shortly thereafter, Mr. Rowland H. joined the Oxford Groups, an evangelical movement then at the height of its success in Europe, and one with which you are doubtless familiar. You will remember their large emphasis upon the principles of self-survey, confession, restitution, and the giving of oneself in service to others. They strongly stressed meditation and prayer. In these surroundings, Rowland H. did find a conversion experience that released him for the time being from his compulsion to drink.

Returning to New York, he became very active with the "O.G." here, then led by an Episcopal clergyman, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker. Dr. Shoemaker had been one of the founders of that movement, and his was a powerful personality that carried immense sincerity and conviction.

At this time (1932-34) the Oxford Groups had already sobered a number of alcoholics, and Rowland, feeling that he could especially identify with these sufferers, addressed himself to the help of still others. One of these chanced to be an old schoolmate of mine, Edwin T. ("Ebby"). He had been threatened with commitment to an institution, but Mr. H. and another ex-alcoholic "O.G." member procured his parole and helped to bring about his sobriety.

Meanwhile, I had run the course of alcoholism and was threatened with commitment myself. Fortunately I had fallen under the care of a physician - a Dr. William D. Silkworth - who was wonderfully capable of understanding alcoholics. But just as you had given up on Rowland, so had he given me up. It was his theory that alcoholism had two components - an obsession that compelled the sufferer to drink against his will and interest, and some sort of metabolism difficulty which he then called an allergy. The alcoholic's compulsion guaranteed that the alcoholic's drinking would go on, and the allergy made sure that the sufferer would finally deteriorate, go insane, or die. Though I had been one of the few he had thought it possible to help, he was finally obliged to tell me of my hopelessness; I, too, would have to be locked up. To me, this was a shattering blow. Just as Rowland had been made ready for his conversion experience by you, so had my wonderful friend, Dr. Silkworth, prepared me.

Hearing of my plight, my friend Edwin T. came to see me at my home where I was drinking. By then, it was November 1934. I had long marked my friend Edwin for a hopeless case. Yet there he was in a very evident state of "release" which could by no means accounted for by his mere association for a very short time with the Oxford Groups. Yet this obvious state of release, as distinguished from the usual depression, was tremendously convincing. Because he was a kindred sufferer, he could unquestionably communicate with me at great depth. I knew at once I must find an experience like his, or die.

Again I returned to Dr. Silkworth's care where I could be once more sobered and so gain a clearer view of my friend's experience of release, and of Rowland H.'s approach to him.

Clear once more of alcohol, I found myself terribly depressed. This seemed to be caused by my inability to gain the slightest faith. Edwin T. again visited me and repeated the simple Oxford Groups' formulas. Soon after he left me I became even more depressed. In utter despair I cried out, "If there be a God, will He show Himself." There immediately came to me an illumination of enormous impact and dimension, something which I have since tried to describe in the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" and in "AA Comes of Age", basic texts which I am sending you.

My release from the alcohol obsession was immediate. At once I knew I was a free man. Shortly following my experience, my friend Edwin came to the hospital, bringing me a copy of William James' "Varieties of Religious Experience". This book gave me the realization that most conversion experiences, whatever their variety, do have a common denominator of ego collapse at depth. The individual faces an impossible dilemma. In my case the dilemma had been created by my compulsive drinking and the deep feeling of hopelessness had been vastly deepened by my doctor. It was deepened still more by my alcoholic friend when he acquainted me with your verdict of hopelessness respecting Rowland H.

In the wake of my spiritual experience there came a vision of a society of alcoholics, each identifying with and transmitting his experience to the next - chain style. If each sufferer were to carry the news of the scientific hopelessness of alcoholism to each new prospect, he might be able to lay every newcomer wide open to a transforming spiritual experience. This concept proved to be the foundation of such success as Alcoholics Anonymous has since achieved. This has made conversion experiences - nearly every variety reported by James - available on an almost wholesale basis. Our sustained recoveries over the last quarter century number about 300,000. In America and through the world there are today 8,000 AA groups.

So to you, to Dr. Shoemaker of the Oxford Groups, to William James, and to my own physician, Dr. Silkworth, we of AA owe this tremendous benefaction. As you will now clearly see, This astonishing chain of events actually started long ago in your consulting room, and it was directly founded upon your own humility and deep perception.

Very many thoughtful AAs are students of your writings. Because of your conviction that man is something more than intellect, emotion, and two dollars worth of chemicals, you have especially endeared yourself to us.

How our Society grew, developed its Traditions for unity, and structured its functioning will be seen in the texts and pamphlet material that I am sending you.

You will also be interested to learn that in addition to the "spiritual experience, "many AAs report a great variety of psychic phenomena, the cumulative weight of which is very considerable. Other members have - following their recovery in AA - been much helped by your practitioners. A few have been intrigued by the "I Ching" and your remarkable introduction to that work.

Please be certain that your place in the affection, and in the history of the Fellowship, is like no other.

Gratefully yours,

William G. W.

Co-founder Alcoholics Anonymous

Reply by Dr. Jung to Bill W.

Jan. 30, 1961

Mr. William G. Wilson

Alcoholics Anonymous

Box 459 Grand Central Station

New York, 17, N.Y.

Dear Mr. Wilson,

your letter has been very welcome indeed.

I had no news from Roland H. anymore and often wondered what has been his fate. Our conversation which he has adequately reported to you had an aspect of which he did not know. The reason that I could not tell him everything was that those days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I said. I had found out that I misunderstood in every possible way. Thus I was very careful when I talked to Roland H. But what I really thought about, was the result of many experiences with men of his kind.

His craving for alcohol was the equivalent on a low level of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in mediaeval language: the union with God. 1)

How could one formulate such an insight in a language that is not misunderstood in our days?

The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is, that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path, which leads you to higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or thought a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I see from your letter that Roland H. has chosen the second way, which was, under the circumstances, obviously the best one.

I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world, lends the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by a real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. An ordinary man, not protected by an action from above and isolated in society cannot resist the power or evil, which is called very aptly the Devil. But the use of such words arouse so many mistakes that one can only keep aloof from them as much as possible.

These are the reasons why I could not give a full and sufficient explanation to Roland H. but I am risking it with you because I conclude from your very decent and honest letter, that you have acquired a point of view above the misleading platitudes, one usually hears about alcoholism.

You see, Alcohol in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spirituus contra spiritum.

Thanking you again for your kind letter

I remain

yours sincerely

1)"As the heart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God." ( Psalm 42,1)

Glad you find solace in this. Good luck with it. I think I managed to reply to you without insulting any members of your family. Can you?

[robitusson]

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter how you beat it... different methods work for different folks.

Precisely, a point that seems lost on some people. AA does work for some, Medical treatment works for some. Does it really matter what method is used as long as it works????

Robitusson: as for your "proof" well, mainly it seems to be supposition based on a few research programs, one of your websites clearly has an agenda of their own to promote as well. As for your declaration that you aren't opposed to spirituality, well, since you constantly refer to psuedo religious rhetoric and seem to deliberately misrepresent AA's teachings of spirituality as being religious, then, yes, I think you are being closed minded and antaganostic. But, hey, thats just my opinion, which, believe it or not, I have as much right to as you have yours.

A few research programs. Exactly. Research. Hearsay? Rhetoric? Religious belief? No, research. One of the websites has an agenda? Which one? What agenda? Why is it an agenda? Does AA not have an agenda? Please elaborate.

Of course AA's teachings are religious. Why would anyone deny this? Please investigate this. I don't mean to be rude but I don't get the sense from your posts that you know that much about it. I think you can tell I have investigated this issue thoroughly and I'm very familiar with it.

You haven't addressed any of the specific points I've raised. You've said I'm being close-minded without countering anything specifically.

As I said already good for the 5% of people that AA works for. Glad it works for you and keep it up. For the rest of us who are problem-drinkers or alcoholics I suggest keeping an open mind to what alcoholism is, the available treatments, the modern scientific, relgious and medical knowledge on the matter and the vunerabilty to exploitation by evangelising groups when people are at weak points in their lives.