Legal buisiness against Illegal

[N47HAN]

Was holding a discussion the other day with a friend about this.

Both of us legal , pay taxes , wp etc. etc.

Now we both know of several people operating buisinesses completeley illegal one way or another. Fortunately for me they dont compete in my industry so I have no chance of loosing prospective clients from them , however they do compete in my friends buisiness.

Now heres the quandry , what would you do ?

Leave it be or ?

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[PiPiFFS]

Leave it be !

[N47HAN]

Pipiffs , could you explain why ? Thats really more of what im curious about opinions.

Thx.

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Edited June 2, 2014 by N47HAN

[Old Croc]

If they are able to undercut you for work because they don't pay taxes, WP, etc, and you're losing business to them, I would warn them to get out of the way or be dobbed.

Of course this takes away the anonymity from the reporting, but they could probably work out who it was anyway.

[PiPiFFS]

Has the person involved done you any harm ? Wronged you in any way ? Why should the fact this person is operating illegally here be of any concern to you. can you honestly say, hand on heart you adhere to every single law here in Thailand ?

When the expats start in fighting between each other then it is a sad day.

I like you have a work permit, pay taxes etc yet have many friends in the same game who do not. For whatever reason they can't get a permit and I have no problem with this. They are the ones taking the risk not me. i like to sleep easy and not have to look over my shoulder all the time like now when immigration are on the island checking permits etc.

Oh and as an aside twice now I have been reported to immigration for working without a permit and each time I have had one and they also told me the person who informed them that I had no permit. One a person I thought was a good friend.

[cdmtdm]

your friend would be wiser to spend the time and energy improving his business, raise the bar to speak ,,,,the other business will eventually be caught for illegal activities ... Kharma !!

[N47HAN]

So far im agreeing with the replies , but i think an interesting thread , looking forward to hopefully some interesting replies to come.

I may add at this point my stand on this is leave it be

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Edited June 2, 2014 by N47HAN

[huuwi]

Old croc is right, give them a warning.

It is not easy to get a workpermit and it cost a lot of money in taxes and fee's.

I have to maintain a higher price to pay my bills and this guys just give a shit.

[Old Croc]

your friend would be wiser to spend the time and energy improving his business, raise the bar to speak ,,,,the other business will eventually be caught for illegal activities ... Kharma !!

He may already be very wise, have the best possible business model, use the most skilful workers and best materials, but customers still tend to go with the cheapest quote from the guy without the overheads or tax bill.

Kharma can be bought off!!

[CharlesHH]

Thailand is a place where revenge can be purchased.

Foreigner with Thai wife(FWTW) I used to know... she started competing biz against former employer (FE). FE's gun men, three, visit FWTW at their home. FWTW both fly out next day. Never returned.

I used abbvs. in revenge to posters here who use lots of abbvs. (PHWULA).

I KNOW to keep a low profile, don't complain officially, and smile at everyone. Trick is to always do that.

[LivinginKata]

<snip>

I KNOW to keep a low profile, don't complain officially, and smile at everyone. Trick is to always do that.

That's the best advice offered so far.

[greenwater]

People with illegal work? Must be report to immigration and work office. Legal business pay a lot for permits and taxes. The illegal are thieves and robbers against the State and legal workers. Point!!

[NamKangMan]

I had a similar conversation with a guy a while ago. He has a small guest house with bar, restaurant and motorbike hire.

It's a very small operation, but the principles would be the same.

I must mention, he is single, so there is no Thai girlfriend or wife to "hide behind" in the business.

He bought the guest house but has no work permit etc etc. He lives here on a retirement visa. He employs two Thai staff full time.

He does not do obvious things that are banned for foreigners, like serve food and drinks, however, he pays utility bills, plays the sport and music he wants, pays the monthly "tea money" and he keeps "the books" and does very minor maintanence jobs Eg. changes light bulbs. He also does some shopping for the business - sometimes small things, sometimes large appliances like air conditioners. All phone equiries go directly to his phone - he accepts all the calls personally.

The staff carry out his instructions and any questions from a customer or supplier is referred to him, directly.

In my opinion, he is "managing" the business, and just also happens to be the owner.

I think you would find, a very high percentage of small businesses, particularly bars, across Thailand, are "run" the same way. The owner is the manager, but sits on the customer side of the bar, instructing staff.

The guest house owner basically told me, why would he get a work permit that doesn't allow him to do anymore than what he currently does, which is all that is needed to be done by him, and which seems to be acceptable to Thai authorities? He said there would be extra costs for him and he would have to hire two more Thai staff. He said his business could not support four Thai staff.

When I put to him, "But you are obviously working, couldn't you be arrested?" His reply, with a smile, was something along the lines of, "No. The Thai's are working here. I'm just the owner keeping an eye on my business." Of course, my reply was, "Well, keeping an eye on your business is still work, isn't it?"

Anyway, the conversation went in circles for a while and never really stopped going in circles until the subject changed.

In my opinion, to the strict letter of Thai Law, anyone actively making day to day operational decisions in relation to a commercial premises in Thailand, is 'working" and those decisions could be as simple as telling a Thai staff member to "put the Singha beer on the top shelf of the fridge" or "move that table and chairs overs over there."

So, there are thousands of "owners" working illegally here because there is no reason for them to become legal as there is no benefit for them to do so. In fact, their business would be financially penalised for them doing so and the business can not justify having four Thai staff.

So, if all of these people were to be arrested, most of the bars and small hospitality businesses would shut down, as they are not large enough to justify four Thai staff and a work permit and you can't do the work that is required in that business anyway.

In answer to your question, I would leave it be, sleep well at night being legal and concentrate my efforts on improving my business to the point where it overtakes those working illegally.

Edited June 2, 2014 by NamKangMan

[nedkellylives]

To many people with little or no experiece opening businesses here

Warranties are a joke and have no value with these type of people so do not think they will honour them

If you cannot afford to pay the costs and fees to operate a legal business do not have a business

If you think you have been ripped of report the business to the relevent authorties or do not use or recommend them

Or both but wait to you have proof of their poor business practices

Ask local people and local businesses you know to recommend someone if you need work done, they usually know

someone who is reliable, knows what they are doing and do not over charge you, which most of the time means they are Thai

[cornishcarlos]

Are the illegal businesses, that you know of, affecting your friends business in a negative way ?

If not then there is no real discussion here.

On the other hand, if illegal operators are reducing his income then get rid of them. It's a dog eat dog world, get eatin

[N47HAN]

I had a similar conversation with a guy a while ago. He has a small guest house with bar, restaurant and motorbike hire.

It's a very small operation, but the principles would be the same.

I must mention, he is single, so there is no Thai girlfriend or wife to "hide behind" in the business.

He bought the guest house but has no work permit etc etc. He lives here on a retirement visa. He employs two Thai staff full time.

He does not do obvious things that are banned for foreigners, like serve food and drinks, however, he pays utility bills, plays the sport and music he wants, pays the monthly "tea money" and he keeps "the books" and does very minor maintanence jobs Eg. changes light bulbs. He also does some shopping for the business - sometimes small things, sometimes large appliances like air conditioners.

The staff carry out his instructions and any questions from a customer or supplier is referred to him, directly.

In my opinion, he is "managing" the business, and just also happens to be the owner.

I think you would find, a very high percentage of small businesses, particularly bars, across Thailand, are "run" the same way. The owner is the manager, but sits on the customer side of the bar, instructing staff.

The guest house owner basically told me, why would he get a work permit that doesn't allow him to do anymore than what he currently does, which is all that is needed to be done by him, and which seems to be acceptable to Thai authorities? He said there would be extra costs for him and he would have to hire two more Thai staff. He said his business could not support four Thai staff.

When I put to him, "But you are obviously working, couldn't you be arrested?" His reply, with a smile, was something along the lines of, "No. The Thai's are working here. I'm just the owner keeping an eye on my business." Of course, my reply was, "Well, keeping an eye on your business is still work, isn't it?"

Anyway, the conversation went in circles for a while and never really stopped going in circles until the subject changed.

In my opinion, to the strict letter of Thai Law, anyone actively making day to day operational decisions in relation to a commercial premises in Thailand, is 'working" and those decisions could be as simple as telling a Thai staff member to "put the Singha beer on the top shelf of the fridge" or "move that table and overs over there."

So, there are thousands of "owners" working illegally here because there is no reason for them to become legal as there is no benefit for them to do so. In fact, their business would be financially penalised for them doing so and the business can not justify having four Thai staff.

So, if all of these people were to be arrested, most of the bars and small hospitality businesses would shut down, as they are not large enough to justify four Thai staff and a work permit and you can't do the work that is required in that business anyway.

In answer to your question, I would leave it be, sleep well at night being legal and concentrate my efforts on improving my business to the point where it overtakes those working illegally.

Just a small but important point NKM , a limited company requires 4 Thais , however a limited partnership only requires 2 thai staff and a small.capitalization of the buisiness.

I know a bar owner who has just this , he has a workpermit but as he employs only 2 staff and is not a co.,ltd. he must renew every his non b every 90 days.

So he has decided to follow the rules , has run the bar for many years , so it is possible to keep the buisiness running . So it kind of cancels anyones elses argument who owns / runs a small bar does it not ?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Old Croc]

Oh and as an aside twice now I have been reported to immigration for working without a permit and each time I have had one and they also told me the person who informed them that I had no permit. One a person I thought was a good friend.

They should never reveal the identity of the informant! Basic rule, but TIT.

I worked in Immigration in Australia a long time ago. Most would be very surprised at which people could inform on them. Sometimes people very close do this for petty reasons.

Never boast in a pub about your unlawful activities, it will piss somebody off. Rejected girlfriends are always seeking revenge. Flatmates who think you are not doing your share of cleaning or paying enough rent, or just want you out, will dob. Jealous workmates will ring.

And never stand in the back of a plane to Australia drinking with a group of fellow passengers telling everyone you are planning to stay and work illegally. The big bloke standing next to you could be someone like me returning from holidays.

[PiPiFFS]

Oh and as an aside twice now I have been reported to immigration for working without a permit and each time I have had one and they also told me the person who informed them that I had no permit. One a person I thought was a good friend.

They should never reveal the identity of the informant! Basic rule, but TIT.

I worked in Immigration in Australia a long time ago. Most would be very surprised at which people could inform on them. Sometimes people very close do this for petty reasons.

Never boast in a pub about your unlawful activities, it will piss somebody off. Rejected girlfriends are always seeking revenge. Flatmates who think you are not doing your share of cleaning or paying enough rent, or just want you out, will dob. Jealous workmates will ring.

And never stand in the back of a plane to Australia drinking with a group of fellow passengers telling everyone you are planning to stay and work illegally. The big bloke standing next to you could be someone like me returning from holidays.

I'm sorry but if you haven't the balls or are not man enough to stand there and be willing to admit to being the person who informed against the illegal working them you shouldn't do it in my opinion.

If I am going to do something I would do it to the person face to face or not try to hide the fact I had done it.

[NamKangMan]

I had a similar conversation with a guy a while ago. He has a small guest house with bar, restaurant and motorbike hire.

It's a very small operation, but the principles would be the same.

I must mention, he is single, so there is no Thai girlfriend or wife to "hide behind" in the business.

He bought the guest house but has no work permit etc etc. He lives here on a retirement visa. He employs two Thai staff full time.

He does not do obvious things that are banned for foreigners, like serve food and drinks, however, he pays utility bills, plays the sport and music he wants, pays the monthly "tea money" and he keeps "the books" and does very minor maintanence jobs Eg. changes light bulbs. He also does some shopping for the business - sometimes small things, sometimes large appliances like air conditioners.

The staff carry out his instructions and any questions from a customer or supplier is referred to him, directly.

In my opinion, he is "managing" the business, and just also happens to be the owner.

I think you would find, a very high percentage of small businesses, particularly bars, across Thailand, are "run" the same way. The owner is the manager, but sits on the customer side of the bar, instructing staff.

The guest house owner basically told me, why would he get a work permit that doesn't allow him to do anymore than what he currently does, which is all that is needed to be done by him, and which seems to be acceptable to Thai authorities? He said there would be extra costs for him and he would have to hire two more Thai staff. He said his business could not support four Thai staff.

When I put to him, "But you are obviously working, couldn't you be arrested?" His reply, with a smile, was something along the lines of, "No. The Thai's are working here. I'm just the owner keeping an eye on my business." Of course, my reply was, "Well, keeping an eye on your business is still work, isn't it?"

Anyway, the conversation went in circles for a while and never really stopped going in circles until the subject changed.

In my opinion, to the strict letter of Thai Law, anyone actively making day to day operational decisions in relation to a commercial premises in Thailand, is 'working" and those decisions could be as simple as telling a Thai staff member to "put the Singha beer on the top shelf of the fridge" or "move that table and overs over there."

So, there are thousands of "owners" working illegally here because there is no reason for them to become legal as there is no benefit for them to do so. In fact, their business would be financially penalised for them doing so and the business can not justify having four Thai staff.

So, if all of these people were to be arrested, most of the bars and small hospitality businesses would shut down, as they are not large enough to justify four Thai staff and a work permit and you can't do the work that is required in that business anyway.

In answer to your question, I would leave it be, sleep well at night being legal and concentrate my efforts on improving my business to the point where it overtakes those working illegally.

Just a small but important point NKM , a limited company requires 4 Thais , however a limited partnership only requires 2 thai staff and a small.capitalization of the buisiness.

I know a bar owner who has just this , he has a workpermit but as he employs only 2 staff and is not a co.,ltd. he must renew every his non b every 90 days.

So he has decided to follow the rules , has run the bar for many years , so it is possible to keep the buisiness running . So it kind of cancels anyones elses argument who owns / runs a small bar does it not ?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I can only speak about the guy I was talking to about this.

I do not ask every foreigner, who "appears" to be in charge of a business here, what visa they are on, what corporate structure they have set up etc etc. It is none of my business.

This guy was running the operation, in the manner I described, and was on a retirement visa.

Just how common, or rare it is, is anyone's guess, however, i would say a lot of bar owners would not be 100% legal. Of course, many have their girlfriend/wife "manage" the bar, but really they carry out the instructions of their spouse.

This is why I thought it important to mention he was single, and this has just reminded me that I asked in who's name the various licences were in and he toild me, for a small fee each year, his Thai lawyer put the licences in his name.

Edited June 2, 2014 by NamKangMan

[Old Croc]

Oh and as an aside twice now I have been reported to immigration for working without a permit and each time I have had one and they also told me the person who informed them that I had no permit. One a person I thought was a good friend.

They should never reveal the identity of the informant! Basic rule, but TIT.

I worked in Immigration in Australia a long time ago. Most would be very surprised at which people could inform on them. Sometimes people very close do this for petty reasons.

Never boast in a pub about your unlawful activities, it will piss somebody off. Rejected girlfriends are always seeking revenge. Flatmates who think you are not doing your share of cleaning or paying enough rent, or just want you out, will dob. Jealous workmates will ring.

And never stand in the back of a plane to Australia drinking with a group of fellow passengers telling everyone you are planning to stay and work illegally. The big bloke standing next to you could be someone like me returning from holidays.

I'm sorry but if you haven't the balls or are not man enough to stand there and be willing to admit to being the person who informed against the illegal working them you shouldn't do it in my opinion.

If I am going to do something I would do it to the person face to face or not try to hide the fact I had done it.

In my experience most informants would do anything to hide their identity from the person they informed on.

A few didn't give a toss. I also had to protect a few from death threats.

[nedkellylives]

I had a similar conversation with a guy a while ago. He has a small guest house with bar, restaurant and motorbike hire.

It's a very small operation, but the principles would be the same.

I must mention, he is single, so there is no Thai girlfriend or wife to "hide behind" in the business.

He bought the guest house but has no work permit etc etc. He lives here on a retirement visa. He employs two Thai staff full time.

He does not do obvious things that are banned for foreigners, like serve food and drinks, however, he pays utility bills, plays the sport and music he wants, pays the monthly "tea money" and he keeps "the books" and does very minor maintanence jobs Eg. changes light bulbs. He also does some shopping for the business - sometimes small things, sometimes large appliances like air conditioners. All phone equiries go directly to his phone - he accepts all the calls personally.

The staff carry out his instructions and any questions from a customer or supplier is referred to him, directly.

In my opinion, he is "managing" the business, and just also happens to be the owner.

I think you would find, a very high percentage of small businesses, particularly bars, across Thailand, are "run" the same way. The owner is the manager, but sits on the customer side of the bar, instructing staff.

The guest house owner basically told me, why would he get a work permit that doesn't allow him to do anymore than what he currently does, which is all that is needed to be done by him, and which seems to be acceptable to Thai authorities? He said there would be extra costs for him and he would have to hire two more Thai staff. He said his business could not support four Thai staff.

When I put to him, "But you are obviously working, couldn't you be arrested?" His reply, with a smile, was something along the lines of, "No. The Thai's are working here. I'm just the owner keeping an eye on my business." Of course, my reply was, "Well, keeping an eye on your business is still work, isn't it?"

Anyway, the conversation went in circles for a while and never really stopped going in circles until the subject changed.

In my opinion, to the strict letter of Thai Law, anyone actively making day to day operational decisions in relation to a commercial premises in Thailand, is 'working" and those decisions could be as simple as telling a Thai staff member to "put the Singha beer on the top shelf of the fridge" or "move that table and chairs overs over there."

So, there are thousands of "owners" working illegally here because there is no reason for them to become legal as there is no benefit for them to do so. In fact, their business would be financially penalised for them doing so and the business can not justify having four Thai staff.

So, if all of these people were to be arrested, most of the bars and small hospitality businesses would shut down, as they are not large enough to justify four Thai staff and a work permit and you can't do the work that is required in that business anyway.

In answer to your question, I would leave it be, sleep well at night being legal and concentrate my efforts on improving my business to the point where it overtakes those working illegally.

He pays tea money like the other 95% of farang owned businesses here and employs staff

Everyone tells their staff what to do and how to do it more often than not

So what is he doing wrong and who is going to arrest him???

Do you think the relevant authorities are interested in your opinion or their tea money???

[N47HAN]

Seems a pretty even split so far as what people would do , leave it be or dob them in.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NamKangMan]

I had a similar conversation with a guy a while ago. He has a small guest house with bar, restaurant and motorbike hire.

It's a very small operation, but the principles would be the same.

I must mention, he is single, so there is no Thai girlfriend or wife to "hide behind" in the business.

He bought the guest house but has no work permit etc etc. He lives here on a retirement visa. He employs two Thai staff full time.

He does not do obvious things that are banned for foreigners, like serve food and drinks, however, he pays utility bills, plays the sport and music he wants, pays the monthly "tea money" and he keeps "the books" and does very minor maintanence jobs Eg. changes light bulbs. He also does some shopping for the business - sometimes small things, sometimes large appliances like air conditioners. All phone equiries go directly to his phone - he accepts all the calls personally.

The staff carry out his instructions and any questions from a customer or supplier is referred to him, directly.

In my opinion, he is "managing" the business, and just also happens to be the owner.

I think you would find, a very high percentage of small businesses, particularly bars, across Thailand, are "run" the same way. The owner is the manager, but sits on the customer side of the bar, instructing staff.

The guest house owner basically told me, why would he get a work permit that doesn't allow him to do anymore than what he currently does, which is all that is needed to be done by him, and which seems to be acceptable to Thai authorities? He said there would be extra costs for him and he would have to hire two more Thai staff. He said his business could not support four Thai staff.

When I put to him, "But you are obviously working, couldn't you be arrested?" His reply, with a smile, was something along the lines of, "No. The Thai's are working here. I'm just the owner keeping an eye on my business." Of course, my reply was, "Well, keeping an eye on your business is still work, isn't it?"

Anyway, the conversation went in circles for a while and never really stopped going in circles until the subject changed.

In my opinion, to the strict letter of Thai Law, anyone actively making day to day operational decisions in relation to a commercial premises in Thailand, is 'working" and those decisions could be as simple as telling a Thai staff member to "put the Singha beer on the top shelf of the fridge" or "move that table and chairs overs over there."

So, there are thousands of "owners" working illegally here because there is no reason for them to become legal as there is no benefit for them to do so. In fact, their business would be financially penalised for them doing so and the business can not justify having four Thai staff.

So, if all of these people were to be arrested, most of the bars and small hospitality businesses would shut down, as they are not large enough to justify four Thai staff and a work permit and you can't do the work that is required in that business anyway.

In answer to your question, I would leave it be, sleep well at night being legal and concentrate my efforts on improving my business to the point where it overtakes those working illegally.

He pays tea money like the other 95% of farang owned businesses here and employs staff

Everyone tells their staff what to do and how to do it more often than not

So what is he doing wrong and who is going to arrest him???

Do you think the relevant authorities are interested in your opinion or their tea money???

When I said "he pays tea money" - the meaning behind that was the BiB know for sure he is the owner and the manager. He does not hide from that fact. This is what I meant by saying he pays tea money. I didn't mean he pays tea money to be able to work illegally.

As to your question, "What is he doing wrong?" Well, he is managing a business, is he not? Like I said, under the strict letter of Thai Law, shouldn't he require a work permit for doing so?

As to your question if relevant authorities are interested in my opinions. They are about as interested in my opinions as they are yours, and every other foreigner's.

[keestha]

Not such a wise move for a foreigner or his Thai wife to report an illegally operating competitor. In case they find out or suspect who made the call, revenge could be easily taken, and I mean within the framework of the law. The legally operating foreigner's work permit will usually state he is the general manager, but does he really restrict himself to only managing all the time? Never serve a beer because the waitress went to the toilet, do the shopping, pick up a customer at the airport, or put the heavy garbage out himself because there is only female staff working?

[shirtless]

I have never been in favour of informing on people who are breaking the law, under these circumstances its very tempting. They all think they are so clever , yet really they built their business on a house of cards.

[shirtless]

Reporting them to the authorities is not something I would like to do, I am sure if they are competing with any Thai nationals they will be shut down soon just mention them to their Thai competition and problem will soon be solved

[stevenl]

Reporting them to the authorities is not something I would like to do, I am sure if they are competing with any Thai nationals they will be shut down soon just mention them to their Thai competition and problem will soon be solved

If that were the case there would not be so many illegal businesses.

[yankee99]

Like most i recommend to stay out of other peoples affairs. He may be operating illegally but with the blessing of the proper authority. This could backfire on you as legal people can get scrutinized more then illegals.

[Colabamumbai]

Every good deed comes with a cost. No good deed goes unpunished.

[Loles]

Oh, Man, what you should do? You should flush your-self in toilet. Henchman.

And you don't forget something, this land of revenges and contacts BUT not at all of smiles. Every "black" business farang who known and met by myself have a Thai wife/GF and her has TH families. They have way to know who was the delator. And of course your authorities friends who were very happy with your tip and slapped you on the back don't care what is happening to you.

They laugh enough about idiot farangs who delate each-other.

Only one thing which you can do, you keep your anonymity and do make a poison-pen letter as your brave style advises you.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Loles