Refusal of Holiday Visa to the UK

[malct]

Hi, I am posting this on behalf of my friend who is dating my wife's sister.

Back Ground

My wife's sister joined a dating site early last year and started to correspond to a gent who has now become a friend of mine and after a short while of chatting Via the dating site, they both decided to delete their accounts and started chatting via Mobile and then via Viber and then met each other in Thailand in September 2013 where they toured Thailand together.

My Wifes sister runs the family shop which i believe the property is in her father and mothers name, but she runs the shop for the family.

In April this year, They decided to apply for a tourist visa, so my Friend spent 3 weeks up in Isaan spending time with the family and before going back home, they submitted the application with the intention that her parents and other members of the family would manage the shop

My wife's sister stated that she had to return home by the end of august due to the rice harvest since her parents would not have the time to run the shop.

The Refusal.

you have applied to visit your British BF XXXX in the UK . In reaching my decision, i have considered all the documents and statements submitted by you and your sponsor.

You have submitted am invitation letter from your sponsor stating that you started your relationship in april 2013 but you have no evidence to substantiate this because you cancelled your accounts in may 2013 and all correspondence was deleted. from then you communicated through emails and phone calls and in September you met each other in person. you have provided evidence of some travel together at the end of September and a series of undated photos.

The evidence of contact to you and your sponsor appears to have commenced from November of last year from the information that i see. i accept that you have met each other but there is no evidence to suggest that you have been in a relationship since april of last year.

You have described yourself has divorced with a teenage daughter and you have been self employed as a shop keeper since 1994 earning 15,000 baht per month. i note that you have submitted a business licence to sell tobacco dated from Jan to Dec 2014 however you have chosen not to provide any evidence of your income and there is no evidence of your personal circumstances prior to the business registration. i am not satisfied that your circumstances are as you describe, you have no evidence of assets or propriety which might encourage your presence in your country. i am not satisfied under these circumstances that your economically well settled in your country. in the light of this i am not satisfied on a balance of probability's that your a genuinely seeking entry to the UK as a visitor and at the end of the period of your visit, you intend to live for the extended periods in the uk though frequent or successive visits.

Your right to appeal is limited to grounds in section 84/1/c

I under stand the frustration of my wife's sister and her BF since our first Visitors Visa was rejected even though we told the truth, but they try and make you out to be lairs in the refusal letter but i do under stand that their are also bogus relationships just to get into the UK and that's why so much effort needs to go into the documentation that's submitted.

Any tips on what they can do going forward would be great.

Regarding my wife and I, We have known each other since 2007 and got married in 2011 and last year we got the IIR, so its happy days for us and it proves that not all applications are fake.

Malc

Malc

[bobrussell]

Not a particularly good sounding application. Emails can be submitted (not the contents) and phone records provided to show contact. Bank/income records should be provided.

Fill in the gaps as much as you can. A failed application will not be held against the applicant as long as no deception has been attempted.

They are not indicating the belief that the relationship is bogus, just that there is insufficient evidence to confirm the relationship.

Not the end of the world, a little more time and better documented contact will work wonders for the next application. The mere fact that a further application goes in at some time in the future supports the validity of the relationship.

This is not that unusual a rejection and generally suggests a lack of preparation rather than anything more sinister.

[I Like Thai]

Contact the dating site and try and get the accounts reactivated or try have the dating site furnish any records they have of the accounts any any contact between them

Send copies of emails and phone records

Send records of her Business license for as far back as she can obtain, along with bank records relating to either her pay or a business account.

Send records of her parents owning the shop and proof that they are her parents.

[David48]

OP ... the UK government has not inferred that the applicant was a liar.

To be accepted as a fact, there usually have to be supporting evidence, not verbal evidence i.e. 'her say so'.

Do they plan to gather further evidence which can be corroborated and reapply?

[7by7]

The ECO has to be satisfied that, on the balance of probabilities, the criteria for the visa applied for have been met.

The onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence to show that they have been.

The wording of the refusal notice is standard. As others have said, they are not calling your sister-in-law a liar. All they are saying is that she has not provided the necessary evidence in the areas they mention.

For example, she says she has owned a business since 1994, but has only provided evidence of her ownership from January this year.

Poor preparation seems to be the reason for this refusal.

[malct]

Thank you for your reply,s yes i agree Liar is the wrong word, its just the wording that is used in the refusal letter "i am not satisfied that your circumstances are as you describe, you have no evidence of assets or propriety which might encourage your presence in your country. i am not satisfied under these circumstances that your economically well settled in your country. in the light of this i am not satisfied on a balance of probability's that your a genuinely seeking entry to the UK as a visitor"

I think a lot of thought needs to go into the next application to cover the points in the refusal

[Bpuumike]

The ECO has to be satisfied that, on the balance of probabilities, the criteria for the visa applied for have been met.

The onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary evidence to show that they have been.

The wording of the refusal notice is standard. As others have said, they are not calling your sister-in-law a liar. All they are saying is that she has not provided the necessary evidence in the areas they mention.

For example, she says she has owned a business since 1994, but has only provided evidence of her ownership from January this year.

Poor preparation seems to be the reason for this refusal.

It seems like the evidence with the original application was very skimpy.

Tell them to keep trying.

[cvm]

Hi all though I would come out of hiding malct has started this post because of me.

After the big shock 6 days ago of are refusal things are beginning to make sense now.

Many thanks to everyone who has given their advice I have taken all the advice on board.

We will be applying again in September.

We will be supplying a few more different years showing the tobacco and alcohol licence in her name.

One big problem we have is.. There is no documents to show how long the shop has been running in her name or that the ground floor of her parents house is being used as a shop. We only have the blue book which shows how many people live in the house ?

Also there are no bank accounts for the shop when the shop stock is sold money goes in the till next day it is used in the local markets to replace the stock. The only records that are kept are for tobacco and alcohol which tax has to be paid on twice a year.

Any advice on this would be gratefully received cvm

Edited June 9, 2014 by theoldgit
Large font changed

[malct]

Hi CVM

Just another issue, its the communication from April 2013, This will need addressed for your new application since their is no proof of a relationship.

The way i could see it and other people may offer advice, would it not be better to say that your relationship started from the day you first met and the months prior to meeting up was a period of communication via Emails and phone getting to know each other.

Good Luck

Malc

Edited June 8, 2014 by malct

[7by7]

For her next application to be successful, the major hurdle is dealing with all the reasons for the refusal of this one.

An online relationship is not a problem per se.

Whilst there is a requirement in a spouse/partner/fiance settlement application for sponsor and applicant to have met, there is no such requirement in a visit application.

In any future application the ECO will refer back to this one. Any unexplained change in what was said then and what is said in the new one will immediately ring alarm bells.

Explain, as she did in this application, that some evidence of communication between you has been lost and supply all the evidence of communication which you have. Phone bills, email headers etc.

If you communicate via a medium where such records are not available; say so.

Explain why she cannot supply business accounts; ECOs are well aware that much of Thailand is a cash society and many small businesses do not keep records in the way a similar business in the UK would.

Include the tobacco and alcohol licences and, if she has it, evidence that she paid the tax; going back as far as she has them. You say these are in her name and so they are evidence of her owning the business.

If she does not have any bank accounts at all, explain why. If she does have one, supply evidence (statements/bank book/letter from bank) of it's balance covering at least the 6 months prior to the application.

For further advice, see UK visit visa basics.

[CharlieH]

Just a thought, take some photos of the building showing the shop, also her in it.

[7by7]

With respect; how would that prove she owns the shop?

[durhamboy]

Looking at the bigger picture of visit visa refusals maybe this is starting to become more and more of a problem for applicants.

The other day there was a topic about a Brit who was married to a Thai lady for 17 years and had always lived in Thailand with her. They wanted to go to the UK for a couple of weeks for a wedding...........visit visa refused!

It seems as if you can be caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Either not enough evidence of a relationship or, on the other hand, too much!

Could it be that because Settlement Visas (SV) have become so expensive and onerous to obtain that UKVI are thinking that some people will just apply for a 90 quid tourist visa and take their chances of being caught? If so, then the evidence of proof of return to Thailand will become more and more critical.

Btw, I am not suggesting that this circumvention of SV is the case here (or the guy married for 17 years). Possible they are paying the penalty for greater scrutiny.

Refusal stats on visit visa refusals could be interesting.

[bobrussell]

Lots of people have been admitted to the UK on visit visas and not gone home. Overstaying has been a common problem as can be seen when the Border Force go into takeaways and laundries (we have had several raids locally).

Whilst a high proportion seem to be from India and Pakistan it is seen as a high risk visa in many countries. Legitimate applicants are caught in the crossfire. I am sure many have considered alternatives to settlement visas even if illegal.

Most rejections are as a result of inadequate preparation not failures of the ECO';s. Provide the right evidence and a visa will be granted (mistakes excepted!).

Someone married to a Thai for 17 years wanting to visit for two weeks should have no difficulty getting a visa if they provide the right documentation. Reason to return is they have a settled life in Thailand but they still have to show this!

I would agree that refusal stats would be interesting. They used to be easy to get using the old website but the new .gov website is a nightmare IMO. I have to admit I cannot find the information anywhere!

[7by7]

<snip>

Most rejections are as a result of inadequate preparation not failures of the ECO';s. Provide the right evidence and a visa will be granted (mistakes excepted!).

Indeed; whilst ECOs do make mistakes, reading the archives of forums such as this certainly shows this to be the case.

Someone married to a Thai for 17 years wanting to visit for two weeks should have no difficulty getting a visa if they provide the right documentation. Reason to return is they have a settled life in Thailand but they still have to show this!

And that they can afford the visit; which in the case referred to by durhamboy was not done as the financial evidence provided had no name on it and therefore no proof of whose finances they were!

I would agree that refusal stats would be interesting. They used to be easy to get using the old website but the new .gov website is a nightmare IMO. I have to admit I cannot find the information anywhere!

Migration Statistics

Edited June 13, 2014 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

I had found the immigration statistics quite easily but not visitor visa rejection figures! They may be hiding in there but I have clearly missed them!

[7by7]

On reflection, I feel that others may be interested in these figures, so have started a new topic here.

Edited June 14, 2014 by 7by7

[malct]

Just a up-date
My wife's sister has just received a email saying the following The processed visa application for GWF reference number - gwf03112xxx was received at the UK Visa Application Centre on 6/25/2014 5:34 PM


I understand that she waited a long time for the refusal, but i don't know why she has just received today's message.
Regarding putting together the paperwork for her new visa and showing details of the shop, My wife's sister has been able to get details of been able to sell Tobacco for the last 5 years, but normally they have been burning their paperwork at the end of each year and most of the time they never get receipts.
regarding the Blue Book, They did not submit this last time, but this would proof that she and her family have stayed in the shop since 1994, would this help when next applying?

[7by7]

Anything which shows stability will help; but does the book show she owns the property?

Unless she has already submitted her new application, I can only assume the email was sent by mistake.

[malct]

just to give you all some good news, My wife's sister has just received her tourist visa through the post in thailand, She and her boyfriend addressed all the issues from the rejection letter from June, so 4 months on and everything is now done. Hope she will enjoy the UK winter.

[highlander403]

just to give you all some good news, My wife's sister has just received her tourist visa through the post in thailand, She and her boyfriend addressed all the issues from the rejection letter from June, so 4 months on and everything is now done. Hope she will enjoy the UK winter.

good news indeed,