Suthep defends his riot control role in 2010

[Fat Haggis]

Love1012=WoopyDoo=PepperMe

[fab4]

Suthep doesn't need to take the fall for anything. We've been over this many times before. Under the SoE in place at the time, the PM is immune to prosecution.

And that small armed and willing element? I call bullshit. It was a very large and well armed element being sheltered willingly by everyone else. I call a spade a spade.

This has been gone over a number of times but it appears that you have not been listening. abhisit and suthep will only be immune from prosecution under the SoE IF the response to the perceived threat is seen to be proportionate.

I would imagine the imposition of live fire zones, the use of snipers and around 80 plus unarmed civilians having been shot dead may be stretching the definition of proportionate somewhat.

[AleG]

The Red Shirts were armed with things that carried a lot more punch than molotovs and rocks, so you may try to extrapolate from your experience what the Thai conscripts had to deal with.

yes, and the PIRA and the INLA were always in the wings with a lot more than rocks and petrol bombs too in Northern Ireland, did I say that the red shirts were not armed ? I'm putting it into context that being on the front line, is not a place many can handle, it's terrifying, it's the unknown that is the greatest fear, now knowing if you're up to the job in the first place, it's the unknown that you can't see that cause the biggest fears.

I'm not sure if you're having a dig here or pointing out the similarities of having been there done that ?

I'm not taking a dig at you, but others like to downplay the role that heavily armed "Men in Black" within the Red Shirts played on the 2010 events.

[Morch]

I'm sure they're far from being done with questioning Suthep, but the fact remains he and he alone has claimed responsibility for the order being given. Case closed unless they magically find some piece of paper with Abhisit's signature on it ordering the shootings.

And again, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't make any claim that all that were killed were armed. The facts are however very clear, there was a large Thaksin-sponsored mob that took over large areas of Bangkok for months, the residents of Bangkok and the infrastructure were being shot, bombed and burned daily, warnings were given, opprtunities were given for people to leave, and labeling them as terrorists was more than warranted and justified. They should have known what was coming. Exactly what Thaksin had planned from day 1.

Well, there should be a paper somewhere with someone's signature and that ought to settle it. If there isn't (which might be

a case worth investigating by itself), then the generals receiving the order could confirm whichever version. Wonder is Suthep

is just taking the fall for this, as doesn't seem likely he'll be back anytime soon in any official capacity. Other thing I wonder

about is that as Abhisit was the PM, wouldn't the authority to make such decisions lie with him? He certainly knew or should

have known - either option isn't too great. The other thing is back to the Yingluck responsibility precedent (as per the rice

scam) - where does the buck stop?

I am not trying to say Abhisit is guilty, not even sure Suthep is. Some decisions need to be taken, consequences not always

go as planned. Just saying that still a way to go before its clear what happened, and being Thailand, maybe not even then.

No argument about the red shirts taking over the center of Bangok etc. I was here at the time. My only reservation is that

whatever they are tagged as, not all present were terrorists, armed or even violent. Some wish to say all or most were, that's

fine - personally don't subscribe to this view. The armed and willing element in most groups isn't that large, really.

Suthep doesn't need to take the fall for anything. We've been over this many times before. Under the SoE in place at the time, the PM is immune to prosecution.

And that small armed and willing element? I call bullshit. It was a very large and well armed element being sheltered willingly by everyone else. I call a spade a spade.

Wasn't referring to legal consequences necessarily. Thinking more about public image.

A PM might be immune to prosecution under SoE, but if he aspires to be PM again, better to have this washed off best he can.

Again, I am not really in the opinion that either of them did anything exceedingly unreasonable. You hold this post, you need

to take some tough calls, nature of the beast. If they wouldn't have, or if they would have sent the soldiers in shackled, they

might have been criticized for either being wimps or as responsible for soldier's body count.

You can call it BS, though I'd rather keep it civil - think football fans, how many actually get into pre/post game aggro? Not

that many. Most support but don't want to know. Take most insurgencies - locals may support passively or otherwise, sure,

how many pick up arms? Much less than that. That many people present were aware of who the muscle are? Yes, it isn't very hard to tell, if you've been to one of these demos.

As for "well armed" - there were a few thousands(?) red shirts around when the army marched in. I don't think the fire arms

caught after the smoke cleared were anything close to these numbers. That they had weapons, sure. That they had those

MiB supporting them, sure as well. Not saying there was not threat - there was. If the number of fire arms was anything close

to the number of red-shirt demonstrators, and if they were all willing to fight, it would have gone much worse as far as casualties

go.

[whybother]

Suthep doesn't need to take the fall for anything. We've been over this many times before. Under the SoE in place at the time, the PM is immune to prosecution.

And that small armed and willing element? I call bullshit. It was a very large and well armed element being sheltered willingly by everyone else. I call a spade a spade.

This has been gone over a number of times but it appears that you have not been listening. abhisit and suthep will only be immune from prosecution under the SoE IF the response to the perceived threat is seen to be proportionate.

I would imagine the imposition of live fire zones, the use of snipers and around 80 plus unarmed civilians having been shot dead may be stretching the definition of proportionate somewhat.

First of all, I don't believe that Abhisit, as PM, was immune from prosecution. IIRC, the SOE gave Abhisit and Suthep certain rights to deal with the protesters. Tarit must have decided that they did what they were allowed to do under the SOE, because he decided to charge them as private citizens rather than public officials.

I have no idea why the army would take orders from private citizens though.

[Robby nz]

If you all had not been so quick to leap in with your condemnation and taken the time to read the OP you would have seen that this is not part of any trial against Suthep and indeed it is very likely that it is being heard in a completely different court.

Try reading :

He testified in the court for a case he filed against Department of Special Investigation (DSI) former director-general Tarit Pengdit and three other DSI senior officials of malfeasance and power abuse for indicting murder and attempted murder charges on former premier Abhisit Vejjajiva and him in connection with the legitimate crackdown of rioters between April and May 2010.

It is indeed a hearing of an action against Tarit and the DSI.

[djjamie]

I disagree with one aspect of this article. I would not call it a legitimate crackdown. I would call it legitimate self defense against a crazed insurgent minority group. The minority that feel violence is the answer to everything.

This is what the red shirts did before live bullets were fired. They threatened to blow up LPG truck, grenade attacks at Thai banks, attacked Thai charity with grenades, stormed parliament, attacked NPP and TPI buildings with M16 and grenades, stormed police hospital, stormed TV station, bomb attacked on electricity pylons, 2 police taken hostage, destroy CCTV cameras, dumped tyres on sky train tracks and then 200 red shirts engaged military personnel at the 1st army region base knowing full well it may cause a deadly response. So how did Suthep and Ahbisit respond? Rubber bullets and water cannons. To reiterate, this is all before a single bullet was fired.

​The frustration by the red shirts that they were not able to provoke the army after the above chaos culminated that very evening. Troops and protesters faced off at democracy monument when troops began to proceed on the protestors while firing blanks above their heads. A similar operation by Colonel Romklao a year earlier (who led this operation), dispersed protestors with only 2 fatalities that turned out to be two civilians gunned down by protesters. Frustrated the red shirts intent on a bloodbath intermingled with a group of gunmen that were armed and engaged the soldiers with a combination of grenade attacks and sniper fire that killed Colonel Romklao and 6 other soldiers. Troops immediately fell back in disarray while protesters were divided in confusion and adulation. The gunmen went through the protesters firing sporadically at Thai troops who has no choice but to defend themselves. In total, 23 died that night.

.

​The restraint by Suthep and Ahbisit should be commended and recognized in the form of an award ceremony. This restraint unfortunately cannot be said for the ruthless attacks by the police under Chalerm in 2013 that left innocent dead protestors on the streets of Bangkok.

This court case will fall flat on its face. The thaksin regime initially pushed it to try to corner Ahbisit into accepting an amnesty. Ahbisit knowing full well he was innocent played thaksins bluff. thaksin did not know it would proceed this far and the only looser in the courts will be thaksin when under outh Ahbisit and Suthep will get centre stage in the media when the air all the red shirt dirty laundry for the world to see.

As for Tarit and the abuse of power. He changes color quicker than a chameleon. Abuse of power is in his blood. It is who he is. If he is guilty of anything it is for being himself.

Edited June 9, 2014 by djjamie

[gemini81]

Suthep doesn't need to take the fall for anything. We've been over this many times before. Under the SoE in place at the time, the PM is immune to prosecution.

And that small armed and willing element? I call bullshit. It was a very large and well armed element being sheltered willingly by everyone else. I call a spade a spade.

This has been gone over a number of times but it appears that you have not been listening. abhisit and suthep will only be immune from prosecution under the SoE IF the response to the perceived threat is seen to be proportionate.

I would imagine the imposition of live fire zones, the use of snipers and around 80 plus unarmed civilians having been shot dead may be stretching the definition of proportionate somewhat.

As I mentioned in this article's responses; nice to have you come in here, to counter balance our memory of facts, experience, the fact we were there in BKK at the time; and the sheer reminder how much common sense we possess. As well as how cool it is I have a wife and Thai acquaintances with some idea what they heck is going on, and what crooks and swindlers all PTP are, and money hungry bums their followers are.

[Tatsujin]

I disagree with one aspect of this article. I would not call it a legitimate crackdown. I would call it legitimate self defense against a crazed insurgent minority group. The minority that feel violence is the answer to everything.

This is what the red shirts did before live bullets were fired. They threatened to blow up LPG truck, grenade attacks at Thai banks, attacked Thai charity with grenades, stormed parliament, attacked NPP and TPI buildings with M16 and grenades, stormed police hospital, stormed TV station, bomb attacked on electricity pylons, 2 police taken hostage, destroy CCTV cameras, dumped tyres on sky train tracks and then 200 red shirts engaged military personnel at the 1st army region base knowing full well it may cause a deadly response. So how did Suthep and Ahbisit respond? Rubber bullets and water cannons. To reiterate, this is all before a single bullet was fired.

​The frustration by the red shirts that they were not able to provoke the army after the above chaos culminated that very evening. Troops and protesters faced off at democracy monument when troops began to proceed on the protestors while firing blanks above their heads. A similar operation by Colonel Romklao a year earlier (who led this operation), dispersed protestors with only 2 fatalities that turned out to be two civilians gunned down by protesters. Frustrated the red shirts intent on a bloodbath intermingled with a group of gunmen that were armed and engaged the soldiers with a combination of grenade attacks and sniper fire that killed Colonel Romklao and 6 other soldiers. Troops immediately fell back in disarray while protesters were divided in confusion and adulation. The gunmen went through the protesters firing sporadically at Thai troops who has no choice but to defend themselves. In total, 23 died that night.

.

​The restraint by Suthep and Ahbisit should be commended and recognized in the form of an award ceremony. This restraint unfortunately cannot be said for the ruthless attacks by the police under Chalerm in 2013 that left innocent dead protestors on the streets of Bangkok.

This court case will fall flat on its face. The thaksin regime initially pushed it to try to corner Ahbisit into accepting an amnesty. Ahbisit knowing full well he was innocent played thaksins bluff. thaksin did not know it would proceed this far and the only looser in the courts will be thaksin when under outh Ahbisit and Suthep will get centre stage in the media when the air all the red shirt dirty laundry for the world to see.

As for Tarit and the abuse of power. He changes color quicker than a chameleon. Abuse of power is in his blood. It is who he is. If he is guilty of anything it is for being himself.

+1

[Boxclever]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

.....so how did 90+ peacefull protesters - most of which were sheltering in a temple - were shot and killed by high powered sniper rifles?

Shotgun below the knee my azz. This wanna-be dictator directly ordered the slaughter of nearly 100 inocent men, women and children and should be tried at an international court of justice for crimes against humanity!

[Crushdepth]

I don't think that admission of ordering the protesters to be shot in the legs below the knee will have done him any favours. People can still bleed out in less than 45 seconds if they lose a limb if there's a severed artery.

I could see in his defence if he stated that the ammunition to be used was not solid enough in which to cause loss of limb or life, not too familiar with the levels of buckshot, I do believe that the larger the number of pellets, the greater the spread??

The rest of the sentence which people have stopped quoting indicated that the troops were being fired on with automatic weapons at that time. I don't believe the below the knee nonsense, but I also doubt that they would wait for official permission to fire back. Who would?

[leesgems]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

Taking a part of the statement out to leave it stand alone is attempted trickery.

Here is the entire statement: Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level when men in black emerged from among the rioters and started to fire at soldiers with assault rifles, prompting the need for self-defense.

With armed protesters firing live rounds at soldiers his soft order would not have been out of line whatsoever. Many would have instructed for the soldiers to 'fire at will' when under live fire.

[realenglish1]

This is the mentality of Suthip. Shoot below the knees Any moron knows if you shoot at someone regardless of where you want to bullets to go they are going to shoot back. Daaaaaa

I don't blame the solders for shooting I blame Suthip for giving the orders knowing it would escalate the conflict . Just lock him up its that simple

[chotthee]

Suthep and the army at that time have no choice.

Kill or be killed.

[Crushdepth]

Suthep doesn't need to take the fall for anything. We've been over this many times before. Under the SoE in place at the time, the PM is immune to prosecution.

And that small armed and willing element? I call bullshit. It was a very large and well armed element being sheltered willingly by everyone else. I call a spade a spade.

This has been gone over a number of times but it appears that you have not been listening. abhisit and suthep will only be immune from prosecution under the SoE IF the response to the perceived threat is seen to be proportionate.

I would imagine the imposition of live fire zones, the use of snipers and around 80 plus unarmed civilians having been shot dead may be stretching the definition of proportionate somewhat.

Oh give up the emotive garbage. Using snipers to identify and selectively remove threats (eg. people with guns) makes good sense given the circumstances. It's way, way better than having terrified infantry hose down the street with automatic weapons.

Here's another hard question for you: Big sign says "live fire zone". You going to go inside?

[whybother]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

.....so how did 90+ peacefull protesters - most of which were sheltering in a temple - were shot and killed by high powered sniper rifles?

Shotgun below the knee my azz. This wanna-be dictator directly ordered the slaughter of nearly 100 inocent men, women and children and should be tried at an international court of justice for crimes against humanity!

I think you should read up a bit more about what actually happened.

Less than 80 protesters died. Some of those where outside protest areas attacking soldier positions and amongst armed protesters. Some were killed during fire fights between the protesters and the army, and it's unknown which side they were killed by, and not what I would call innocent. IIRC, only 6 died in the temple, with a couple of those possibly being shot outside the temple. Only a small number of causes of death have been officially determined.

The cause of death of the soldiers (included in your "90+ peaceful protesters") have not been determined, except for one killed by friendly fire on Vipivardi-Rangsit Rd.

[gamini]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

you only quoted half what he said. You deliberately twisted it. He said when the men in black started firing assault weapons he ordered troops to retaliate in self defence. I am sure that Suthep is far more a gentleman than you could ever be

[gamini]

O, so these japanees and italian journalists, as well as those civilians at the temple in a red cross tent, and another some 80 civilians, they all were armed and not shot at head and hart

The elite yellow farangs, forget about this

and you are a low class UDD suporter obviously.

[Equalizer]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level when men in black emerged from among the rioters and started to fire at soldiers with assault rifles!!

Would it not have been more fitting for him to order the soldiers to shoot at the men in black instead!!!! What a crazy bizarre thing to say. This man is a lunatic, always has been. Besides, the way i remember it back then is i was deprived of attending my young sisters funeral. The airport was taken hostage by thousands of people in yellow shirts.

[Equalizer]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

Not justifying orders, decision or application - but I think instructions to aim bellow knee level (or similar phrasing) aren't that

rare in other armies as well. This is more about defining that the shooting is not intended to kill, setting an upper bar the

soldiers. Would be pretty standard to set something of the sort as guideline.

Obviously, better in theory than in practice.

Not sure if it has much to do with Suthep being a fine upstanding gentleman or not, it is more a procedural decision someone

has to take and be responsible for. I am guessing the army generals weren't going anywhere without clear signed orders, and

that Suthep was It (not saying he was unwilling or forced to).

You are taking B/S i am an ex soldier and you ARE NOT taught to aim below the knees you are taught only one method. Shoot for the chest and shoot to kill. End of story.

[unanimosity]

Is there any other politician that you could name (maybe just one on the red side...) who goes to court when ordered and answers questions and - even more - admits to what he did and ordered??

Chapeau, Khun Suthep.

Who wouldn't when the court works for you.

[whybother]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level when men in black emerged from among the rioters and started to fire at soldiers with assault rifles!!

Would it not have been more fitting for him to order the soldiers to shoot at the men in black instead!!!! What a crazy bizarre thing to say. This man is a lunatic, always has been. Besides, the way i remember it back then is i was deprived of attending my young sisters funeral. The airport was taken hostage by thousands of people in yellow shirts.

The yellow shirt airport protests were in 2008. The red shirt protests (what this topic is about) were in 2010.

[Equalizer]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level when men in black emerged from among the rioters and started to fire at soldiers with assault rifles!!

Would it not have been more fitting for him to order the soldiers to shoot at the men in black instead!!!! What a crazy bizarre thing to say. This man is a lunatic, always has been. Besides, the way i remember it back then is i was deprived of attending my young sisters funeral. The airport was taken hostage by thousands of people in yellow shirts.

The yellow shirt airport protests were in 2008. The red shirt protests (what this topic is about) were in 2010.

The quote about my sisters funeral was not directly referring to a date it was something that directly effected me through Thailand's political turmoil in the past. No idea what years any of it was. Not particularly interested. I specifically posted to say the orders he gave where bizarre and crazy.

[ianf]

O, so these japanees and italian journalists, as well as those civilians at the temple in a red cross tent, and another some 80 civilians, they all were armed and not shot at head and hart

You are so boring Londonthai. Do you think that soldiers shot soldiers? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, Thaksin had some militia in there trying to create mayhem? Do you think everyone of those killed was killed by the Thai army? If so, dream on. You are just repeating Amsterdam propaganda. And you know what? It's boring and ignorant.

Edited June 9, 2014 by ianf

[Frank James]

Little man has served his purpose and is now on his way....down.

[rabas]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

.....so how did 90+ peacefull protesters - most of which were sheltering in a temple - were shot and killed by high powered sniper rifles?

Shotgun below the knee my azz. This wanna-be dictator directly ordered the slaughter of nearly 100 inocent men, women and children and should be tried at an international court of justice for crimes against humanity!

Your "facts" are way way off, dozens, including military, were killed long before the final day when there was shooting at the temple, and it is still not clear who did that shooting. As an exercise to start, find out how many people at the temple where shot and at what time.

Also note in your reasoning that everyone understood that targeting international reporters, nurses, medical aids, and innocent people taking refuge in a temple would be most obviously damning for the Abhisit government that Thaksin was trying so hard to overthrow. I honestly do not know who shot all those people as there is no hard evidence, but do I remember following the events minute by minute and even expected it based on my understanding of what was going on.

[Larry001]

The man who has ruined this country single handedly. A murderer in his own right.

[Larry001]

gamini, on 09 Jun 2014 - 18:23, said:

lomatopo, on 09 Jun 2014 - 14:56, said:

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

you only quoted half what he said. You deliberately twisted it. He said when the men in black started firing assault weapons he ordered troops to retaliate in self defence. I am sure that Suthep is far more a gentleman than you could ever be

Ignorance at its best. How can you make a comment when you do not even know the gentlemen you are talking about. Highly educated comment!!!!!!

[pmugghc]

Seem to be clearing the way to bring Mark back in as an unelected PM once more. (hence why he has kept such a low profile in all this.) Suthep from the word go seem to have been the fall guy, willing to take the hit, presumably for a huge sum of money. His politics days will be over but he can retire in his mansion down south with his millions now in billions, most of it stolen from the state.

Then once "the" event happens which this whole charade has been about and they install the "democrats" once more as government, it will be back to square one and the cycle can begin again.

Groundhog day

Billions? Source?

[Morch]

Suthep admitted ordering troops to shoot at rioters with real shotguns but at below the knee level

Oh, that's OK then. What a fine upstanding gentleman.

Not justifying orders, decision or application - but I think instructions to aim bellow knee level (or similar phrasing) aren't that

rare in other armies as well. This is more about defining that the shooting is not intended to kill, setting an upper bar the

soldiers. Would be pretty standard to set something of the sort as guideline.

Obviously, better in theory than in practice.

Not sure if it has much to do with Suthep being a fine upstanding gentleman or not, it is more a procedural decision someone

has to take and be responsible for. I am guessing the army generals weren't going anywhere without clear signed orders, and

that Suthep was It (not saying he was unwilling or forced to).

You are taking B/S i am an ex soldier and you ARE NOT taught to aim below the knees you are taught only one method. Shoot for the chest and shoot to kill. End of story.

Actually an ex-soldier too.

Different countries, different rules, different armies, different instructions.

What you say about shoot to kill is simply nonsense, or simplified version of reality at best.

There are many situation when restrictions are placed on soldiers actions, and there are many that call a soldier to

apply his judgement.

I do agree that most armies are not really intended, nor adept, at the sort of operation conducted in 2010.