Legalities with regard to 'working'

[sean in udon]

Not sure which forum is appropriate for this, so I'll start here and mods feel free to move.

I'm in Thailand on an education visa. I'm residing with a Thai family. Have funded the purchase of some land and am having a house built on the land.

I've been quite happily pottering about on the land, planting banana trees, pineapple, water melon. Drainage ditch was blocked, so I dug it out.

Bubble got burst today. A fellow farang advised that i shouldn't be 'working' on the land. He suggested that if someone told immigration, I could be in a bit of poo.

Having researched a little, I believe that my pottering would be considered working, so I now need to find a way to be on the right side of the law.

I'm a little peeved as I do find pottering quite relaxing.

What are my options? The house won't be habitable for at least 2 months and is therefore not currently my home.

What are the legalities once I am living there? Can I work on the land or would that also be considered working illegally?

If I lease the land and house, even on a short term lease (1 or 2 years) would I then be ok to resume pottering?

I'm also a little confused about ownership. I understand that land can never be owned by me, but can I own the house in my name? If yes, would that help with this situation?

Or is this going to be one of the lovely grey areas that Thailand has. Depends on the immigration officer and which way the wind is blowing?

[sean in udon]

As the dust is settling, thoughts are occurring.

Would being on a retirement visa make any difference? Would a marriage visa make any difference?

[PattayaPhom]

Twitching cutains round your way. How could tending your own property be working. Would be interesting to hear from anyone that knows of someone being arrested, charged and deported for cutting their grass etc?.

[falang07]

I remember there was a similar question posted in the Ask the lawyer section and the reply was that you can work on your own property without a work permit.

[sean in udon]

Problem I have at present, is nothing in writing to say this will be my home.

It feels a bit grey. Yes, the locals know I'm going to live there and the builders know I'm paying the bills, but would that be sufficient should immigration come knocking?

I was blissfully ignorant of any curtain twitching until now.

In the UK I would phone the relevant authorities and discuss the situation directly.

Unfortunately, not so straightforward here. But it may come down to taking a trip into Udon, with family and translator, and having a discussion with immigration.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[dddave]

Since foreigners can not own property, you must have bought the land under a Thai citizens name which means that you will be working on that persons property...not "your own".

[Mario2008]

Gardening is not against the law, in esence if you produce it for yourself. If you produce to sell products you need a work permit, which you will not get for farming.

[Ladysquare]

Please get this link translate from the professional translator. The house and land cannot own by YOU but you can register as “Beneficiary” for your entire life on that land/house at the local land office. The owner of the house/land cannot sell the property/land without your signature/permission. Get the lawyer to help prepare for some documents needed...also backtrack by get it translate to see all details mentioned on the paper is exactly what you want.

http://www.dol.go.th/dol/images/medias/dol/example/lo/smt/handbook/november/news1.htm

After that, when you are working on your property/land....no need to worry at all. Please make sure to get some bills under your name for that address too. For example, phone bill, UBC bill, magazine...etc..

[wotamess]

<deleted> - "I'm fixing up my (wife's) home" is your getoutofshit card. If you're really worried, get your partner to find the local plod, bring them round, ask for "advice". In return, either get them drunk or give them a brown envelope - if your partner is Thai, they will know how to accomplish this without causing embarrassment/complications/jail time/beating. Don't do this yourself! - but it will work.

Thais don't think like westerners, they just get on with it & solve consequences as they happen - take a leaf. Roll it & smoke;-)

[ericthai]

Some people will try and scare you and tell you that the law says anything you do can be considered work under Thai law definition and make statements that checking email can be considered work etc. Which under Thai law this is true, but reality is immigration is looking for people that are illegally working for companies and getting paid. Doing things around your house, having a small garden for self use is not going to be a problem. You don't need to wait until you move in you can work on it now. My wife and I have a house but our land for growing rice, bananas etc is not near our house it's in a different part of the village. I have been seen out working on the land with her for many years. We cut the grass, plant trees fertilize the land ourselves. Never had an issue. Immigration has even been out in our village looking for illegal Cambodians working on farms and never questioned me even with a grass cutter in my hand and me cutting the grass. I would not worry about it and just go on as you have been.

[Suradit69]

From Phuket Gazette interview:

However, Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of the Phuket Provincial Employment Office, the government office established to specifically regulate and administer employment law, maintained that the wording does not allow officers to apply the law beyond its intended scope.

“Foreigners cannot perform any work – in the true sense of the word – without a work permit. And they may only perform the work listed in the work permit and only at the place of work listed in the permit.

“But that doesn’t mean they can’t cook their own meals, clean their own houses or tend to their own gardens. Of course they can, but as soon as they are hired or profit by doing any of these things, they are ‘working’,” she said.

“And any foreigners who want to build their own boats on their own time, using their own skills and experience, for their own personal use are not breaking the law. They can do this, but they cannot build a boat so they can sell it later on. That would be profiting from the work,” Ms Yaowapa added.

Not applying the law beyond its intended scope is also what makes it legal for foreigners to assist in public cleanup campaigns and other community projects – as long as the volunteer work is not regular, she added.

“Being a volunteer for an organization requires a work permit. This is because although you might not get money from the volunteer work, you might get food or a place to stay as a reward. So if you do not have a work permit, you are illegal,” Ms Yaowapa said.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket-news/Special-Report-Permission-to-function-in-Phuket/22548

[hobz]

What about going to the gym and being my own personal trainer. Surely a Thai could have been my personal trainer So I'm taking a job from a thai

[Suradit69]

What about going to the gym and being my own personal trainer. Surely a Thai could have been my personal trainer So I'm taking a job from a thai

Fortunately the people working in Immigrations or who are regulating employment law are more sensible than you. The Farang Fantasy Factory just never stops blowing smoke does it?

Edited June 10, 2014 by Suradit69

[Soutpeel]

What about going to the gym and being my own personal trainer. Surely a Thai could have been my personal trainer So I'm taking a job from a thai

Now your just being a silly sod

[Justanotherpassword]

There is often "a fellow farang" coming around with unneeded and unnecessary advice. The world would be a better place if people just allowed other people "to flourish on their own." It was not the business of the established farang to give newbie advice to you unasked. In the pool in our condo some people love to sit and complain in ways such as: "This table has coffee marks on it.....just awful...." I look up from my Bangkok Post and reply: "There is water in the bucket next to the faucet you can dip in you towel and wipe it."

The responce: "I don't have a work permit!"

My retort: "Well, the building cleaners will get here eventually they come twice a day, but meanwhile you could go to the office and complain."

......and they do. Heaven forbid they crease their withered fingers with a napkin wiping a coffee ring from a marble table.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Justanotherpassword

[khunPer]

OP: »Or is this going to be one of the lovely grey areas that Thailand has…«

I presume, yes.

I think working on “your own” land will not be a problem, as long as what you work with – or grow – is used for yourself only and not being sold…

There were recently some cases from Phuket in the news feed about foreigners building boats or repairing (upgrade) motorbikes, and here was the point that if the items were sold or intended for sale it was “work”, if for private use only it was legal.

No, you cannot own land as a foreigner; however yes, you can own a house on the land you do not own (but lease or have a usufruct right on).

To my knowledge: To be “official” owner a house, registered as such at the land department, you need to buy a second hand house. If you build a new house, your proof of ownership will be only:

Building permission in your name (must have your name written on the documents),

Drawings must have your name printed on each drawing – the drawings used for building permission, stamped and returned to you – or at least at the cover page (normally the name will be on each of the drawings),

Keeping all construction contracts, money transfers, receipts and like paperwork from construction as proof, preferably all with your name on,

House Book with your name (the yellow House Book) shall state something like “Master of House” in Thai, and any name in a blue House Book (for Thai nationals) shall not state any as House Master.

Hope this information helps…

[sean in udon]

Thanks for all the sensible replies.

Thanks Ladysquare.

Your info sent me in a new direction and led me to the following links which may be beneficial to others as they're in English:

http://www.windowonphuket.com/features_property_phuket/legal-matters-81.htm

http://www.thailegal.co.th/articles.php?no=00035

Particularly like the second link and am going to pursue the suggestion of having the rights mentioned, registered against the land.

This being Thailand, I have had a mixed response. Had a farang friend phone a Thai lawyer and explain my situation. Response - cannot work on the land at present.

Had a Thai friend phone a Thai Lawyer, who said I can work on the land as it would not be considered business premises. The same Thai friend phoned immigration in Udon, explained the situation and they said no problem.

Armed with this information and the comments from falang07, kunPer, ericthai, wotamess, Suradit69 and Mario2008 I'm back in my happy bubble.

So, screw it, I'm pottering.

I didn't mention this in my first post, but during the conversation, the fellow farang stressed 3 times that he wouldn't be phoning immigration 'but you never know who might'. And gave assurances that he wasn't bothered that I was 'working'. My original concern was exacerbated somewhat as 'I think thou doth protest too much'.

Justanotherpassword, not come across the 'coffee ring' scenario yet, but, sadly, it'll only be a matter of time.

[CharlesHH]

Lets be a little bit Thai for a minute.

There are only two ways to get on official radar or into problems....

1. You or your loved ones make someone angry or jealous; they turn you in with an official complaint. Problems.

2. An official happens to observe you by chance or on purpose and needs a donation to his kids' new shoes fund. Official makes note of your problem; you make donation. Problem gone, at least for now.

I think the vast number of officials can get donations easier than this shake down technique, so don't worry about option #2.

Foreigner, smile, keep your low profile, be seen donating at the wat, donate at the funeral of a big shot or a poor family, be sure to deliver token holiday gifts to post office, land guard at gate, and village head man if possible, and smile.

Did I mention smiling?

Then relax.