Work Permit for Condo Foreign Board Chairman and Members

[Maestro]

Jusrtanotherpassword, thank you for your last post. I have taken note of the fact that you answered neither of my two questions.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Soutpeel]

Jusrtanotherpassword, thank you for your last post. I have taken note of the fact that you answered neither of my two questions.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

He will not answer your questions cos he can't all that will happen will be he will post more " factless " rhetoric

[Justanotherpassword]

Fifth item under "Know your condominium Juristic person"

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/Condominium-Rights-in-Thailand.php

There, now this attorney saw no need to mention work permits. Complain about it.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Justanotherpassword

[iancnx]

I see that the member qkd888, who started this topic, asked the question also in the forum Ask the Lawyer and got this answer:

Yes they require work permits to function in this capacity as it is considered employment, not having a work permit for this is considered illegal and you can be arrested.

Goodness is this still going. I checked the link and can perhaps see the confusion. There is no Board. A condominium has a committee with a chair person heading the committee. I can understand a Thai Lawyer seeing the word BOARD (as in Board df Director's) saying a WP would be required. As with anything legal if you ask an inaccurate question you will get the wrong advice. Board members are normally compensated in commercial organisations!

For your further understanding of how things work practically in a well managed condominium

The Juristic Person - appointed by the Committee - JP (normally a Thai) will receive some form of compensation for holding this position.

The JP, with the authority of the committee, can appoint a separate manager who would become the administration and facilities manager. There might be a further appointment of an accounts clerk to take care of the disbursements, and maintain a very simple cash account ready for audit at any time. These latter two position would also normally be Thai. They would be salaried.

It is possible in a small condominium the above 3 jobs are handled by just one person, this then would be known as the Juristic Person Manager - JPM.

Add to this a maintenance team and security guards. Also Thai. This would make up the workforce for the condominium, and for any non-Thai a WP would need to be in place! Add to this contracted services such as accountant, auditor, attorney and municipality.

Now, as I have already inferred the condominium committee has the exclusive authority to appoint all of the above. The composition of the committee would normally in a best case scenario be 50% Thai owners and 50% foreign owners. Committee members are not paid and receive no compensation. It is a voluntary position. At each annual general meeting AGM of all of the condominium co-owners the committee is proposed, seconded, votes are cast and they are duly elected under law (the Condominium Act) to oversee the accountable and responsible management of the building thus ensuring all expenditure is genuine and transparent. At the same AGM the Committee Chairperson is elected. In good buildings the contracting of services for the year ahead, and a forecast expenditure would also be discussed and if necessary voted on at the AGM. The role of committee is purely oversight and the day to day running of the building is down to the management, who have been appointed by the committee, who were appointed by the co-owners, including the chairman who steers the ship, ensures minutes are taken (by the Thai staff) ensures audits are undertaken (by Thai auditors) and ensures the JP duly reports and documents the whole process annually to the Land Office.

A co-owner is not required to have a work permit to sit in an AGM and propose agenda items and vote and demand accountability. Further a co- owner is entitled to discuss issues for the good and benefit of the condominium, and where necessary can propose the removal of staff, management, services or indeed committee members if that co-owner wishes!

The committee is made up of those co-owners elected at the AGM . This smaller group of co- owners have their own mini meetings, perhaps bi-monthly or quarterly in a similar vein to the AGM. Minutes are taken. The JP, or the admin/facilities manager would be in attendance and will be appointed to take the minutes. The Thai staff would report to the committee on the daily operations and expenditure and ask for guidance and authority where problems have arisen or extraordinary expenditure is deemed necessary.

Guys you can argue until you are blue in the face ... You do NOT need a WP to sit on such a committee, and that includes the chair person. All of the work should be undertaken by Thai's. It really is a very simple and uncomplicated process.

Edited June 21, 2014 by iancnx

[mahjongguy]

I agree with nearly all of what iancnx posted above, with one caveat: the bank accounts for a condo, in order to prevent embezzlement, generally require at least two signatures. When cash is needed to pay staff salaries, it is typically the committee chairperson who accompanies the juristic person to the bank. This is what I referred to in my post on page 1 as "doing banking" and I think that it could easily be construed as "doing work". There are often situations where a foreigner chairperson might be tempted to do work just for the sake of expediency.

Thus my advice to be on the committee if you wish but avoid the role of chairperson.

Edited June 21, 2014 by mahjongguy

[iancnx]

Department of Land boys! Go ahead, run yourself in circles looking for daddy to approve your involvement in management oversight of a building of which you are a percentable owner (aka your home and property). I am certain you will find someone to drive a fee for you. Meanwhile, you who do not live in condos, presume to tell others what common practice is. A system that works flawlessly with 100 large condo building around Thailand does not expose the committee to risk and further no liability can come to a committee member who has acted in the best interests of the building. That last bit saves any committee from frivilous lawsuits from the senile or others with too much time on their hands.

Why are you getting all hysterical ?......this is actually an interesting debate, to date you have not posted or linked to anything which indicates a WP is not needed.

As requested previously please show where it says in the condo act or a department of land document which indicates a WP is not needed

No need to show anything because (read my factual post above) being a co-owner, a committee member or the chairperson involves NO work. Just as simple as that!

[FritsSikkink]

Department of Land boys! Go ahead, run yourself in circles looking for daddy to approve your involvement in management oversight of a building of which you are a percentable owner (aka your home and property). I am certain you will find someone to drive a fee for you. Meanwhile, you who do not live in condos, presume to tell others what common practice is. A system that works flawlessly with 100 large condo building around Thailand does not expose the committee to risk and further no liability can come to a committee member who has acted in the best interests of the building. That last bit saves any committee from frivilous lawsuits from the senile or others with too much time on their hands.

Why are you getting all hysterical ?......this is actually an interesting debate, to date you have not posted or linked to anything which indicates a WP is not needed.

As requested previously please show where it says in the condo act or a department of land document which indicates a WP is not needed

No need to show anything because (read my factual post above) being a co-owner, a committee member or the chairperson involves NO work. Just as simple as that!

Not true:

“Whether or not you will need a work permit depends on whether your intended activity actually qualifies as work under the Employment Department's existing definition.

Normally, being on a committee involves attending meetings to make decisions and signing papers. In this case, you would need a work permit.

If you want to apply for a work permit you must be in possession of a non-immigrant "B" visa.

You can not use your retirement visa to apply.

You can visit the Phuket Employment Office at 38/27 Rattanakosin 200 Pi Road during normal office hours: Monday to Friday, 8:30am to 4:30pm, or call 076-219660 or 076-219661 ext. 13.” Monday, August 27, 2012 12:19:03 PM Phuket Employment Office, Work Permit Division chief Jeeraphan Sookhwan.

[Maestro]

It would be nice to hear from a Thaivisa member who is a foreigner and who is a member of a condominium committee what documents the Condominium Juristic Person had to submit with the application for his work permit.

[iancnx]

Department of Land boys! Go ahead, run yourself in circles looking for daddy to approve your involvement in management oversight of a building of which you are a percentable owner (aka your home and property). I am certain you will find someone to drive a fee for you. Meanwhile, you who do not live in condos, presume to tell others what common practice is. A system that works flawlessly with 100 large condo building around Thailand does not expose the committee to risk and further no liability can come to a committee member who has acted in the best interests of the building. That last bit saves any committee from frivilous lawsuits from the senile or others with too much time on their hands.

Why are you getting all hysterical ?......this is actually an interesting debate, to date you have not posted or linked to anything which indicates a WP is not needed.

As requested previously please show where it says in the condo act or a department of land document which indicates a WP is not needed

No need to show anything because (read my factual post above) being a co-owner, a committee member or the chairperson involves NO work. Just as simple as that!

Not true:

Whether or not you will need a work permit depends on whether your intended activity actually qualifies as work under the Employment Department's existing definition.

Normally, being on a committee involves attending meetings to make decisions and signing papers. In this case, you would need a work permit.

If you want to apply for a work permit you must be in possession of a non-immigrant "B" visa.

You can not use your retirement visa to apply.

You can visit the Phuket Employment Office at 38/27 Rattanakosin 200 Pi Road during normal office hours: Monday to Friday, 8:30am to 4:30pm, or call 076-219660 or 076-219661 ext. 13. Monday, August 27, 2012 12:19:03 PM Phuket Employment Office, Work Permit Division chief Jeeraphan Sookhwan.

Absolute nonsense!

[iancnx]

It would be nice to hear from a Thaivisa member who is a foreigner and who is a member of a condominium committee what documents the Condominium Juristic Person had to submit with the application for his work permit.

Yep, it would be nice. Of the hundreds (thousands) condos in the country surely one chairperson or committee member has a WP specifically for ummmmm sitting in a meeting which formulates decisions for the common good at no profit whatsoever and thereby directs a salaried Thai staff to manage their freehold property in a building which foreign ownership is 49% and Thai ownership is 51%.

Waiting, but it ain't gonna happen. This is a complete nonsense!

[Maestro]

...

If you want to apply for a work permit you must be in possession of a non-immigrant "B" visa.

You can not use your retirement visa to apply.

...

Wrong, in general, because many foreigners have a work permit issued on the basis of a one-year extension of stay for the reason of living with a Thai family member such as wife or child, ie after arriving in Thailand with a non-O visa.

Wrong, in particular, because we have no reports from foreigners who applied for and received a work permit for the job of being a member of a condo committee. The requirements listed in the work permit application package (see attachment) specifies no particular type of visa and therefore gives the Department of Employment discretion in this regard.

WP.3 Work permit application - S.11.pdf

[FritsSikkink]

No need to show anything because (read my factual post above) being a co-owner, a committee member or the chairperson involves NO work. Just as simple as that!

Not true:

Whether or not you will need a work permit depends on whether your intended activity actually qualifies as work under the Employment Department's existing definition.

Normally, being on a committee involves attending meetings to make decisions and signing papers. In this case, you would need a work permit.

If you want to apply for a work permit you must be in possession of a non-immigrant "B" visa.

You can not use your retirement visa to apply.

You can visit the Phuket Employment Office at 38/27 Rattanakosin 200 Pi Road during normal office hours: Monday to Friday, 8:30am to 4:30pm, or call 076-219660 or 076-219661 ext. 13. Monday, August 27, 2012 12:19:03 PM Phuket Employment Office, Work Permit Division chief Jeeraphan Sookhwan.

Absolute nonsense!

Of course, you (and justanotherpassword) know better than the chief of the work permit division from the employment office.

Why should we believe him, he is only the highest in command about this subject in Phuket. Next time i make sure i consult one of you about any Thai laws and not the Thai officials.

[Justanotherpassword]

I agree with nearly all of what iancnx posted above, with one caveat: the bank accounts for a condo, in order to prevent embezzlement, generally require at least two signatures. When cash is needed to pay staff salaries, it is typically the committee chairperson who accompanies the juristic person to the bank. This is what I referred to in my post on page 1 as "doing banking" and I think that it could easily be construed as "doing work". There are often situations where a foreigner chairperson might be tempted to do work just for the sake of expediency.

Thus my advice to be on the committee if you wish but avoid the role of chairperson.

Procedures vary depending upon professionalism of the condo management company. A lot of people try to do things on the cheap which can lead to such problems and greater ultimate costs. Each of our employees had a bank account created for them and a direct deposit transfer of their salary. In this manner we were able to insure that all employees were legal Thai workers while "salaries" were taken out of the responsibility of management to have cash on hand which was felt by the committee to be an unneeded risk. Also, humanely, it was a risk to the employees to be handed an envelope monthly they could lose. We required three signatures on checks by parties who had registered with the bank as a signatory approved by (deep breath) The Land Office. In a given month checks were paid to electricity for the common area and pool, water, petty cash for the office, bills of outside suppliers of services, equipment and materials (such as tools, paint, cement and landscaping), insurance, elevator maintenance contracts, cable TV, appropriation for Buddha holidays, . Although our BONDED LICENSED AND INSURED management company did handle cash payments no committee member during my time ever physically touched a satang. Again, procedures vary, but I would never take on handling other people's cash money in a voluntary positon in a condo building where receipts follow the money. Any committee member (in any building) who would do so is a fool as it looks shady even if it is totally innocent. The most I have ever done was pay a water bill for for someone overseas who would be gone when his or her bill arrived.

Greetings and thanks to iancrix. You are a rare breath of sanity.

I guess the rest of you will be spending your money on lawyers only too happy to take your money to "consult" with you to no particular effect.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Justanotherpassword

[qkd888]

I see that the member qkd888, who started this topic, asked the question also in the forum Ask the Lawyer and got this answer:

Yes they require work permits to function in this capacity as it is considered employment, not having a work permit for this is considered illegal and you can be arrested.

Goodness is this still going. I checked the link and can perhaps see the confusion. There is no Board. A condominium has a committee with a chair person heading the committee. I can understand a Thai Lawyer seeing the word BOARD (as in Board df Director's) saying a WP would be required. As with anything legal if you ask an inaccurate question you will get the wrong advice. Board members are normally compensated in commercial organisations!

For your further understanding of how things work practically in a well managed condominium

The Juristic Person - appointed by the Committee - JP (normally a Thai) will receive some form of compensation for holding this position.

The JP, with the authority of the committee, can appoint a separate manager who would become the administration and facilities manager. There might be a further appointment of an accounts clerk to take care of the disbursements, and maintain a very simple cash account ready for audit at any time. These latter two position would also normally be Thai. They would be salaried.

It is possible in a small condominium the above 3 jobs are handled by just one person, this then would be known as the Juristic Person Manager - JPM.

Add to this a maintenance team and security guards. Also Thai. This would make up the workforce for the condominium, and for any non-Thai a WP would need to be in place! Add to this contracted services such as accountant, auditor, attorney and municipality.

Now, as I have already inferred the condominium committee has the exclusive authority to appoint all of the above. The composition of the committee would normally in a best case scenario be 50% Thai owners and 50% foreign owners. Committee members are not paid and receive no compensation. It is a voluntary position. At each annual general meeting AGM of all of the condominium co-owners the committee is proposed, seconded, votes are cast and they are duly elected under law (the Condominium Act) to oversee the accountable and responsible management of the building thus ensuring all expenditure is genuine and transparent. At the same AGM the Committee Chairperson is elected. In good buildings the contracting of services for the year ahead, and a forecast expenditure would also be discussed and if necessary voted on at the AGM. The role of committee is purely oversight and the day to day running of the building is down to the management, who have been appointed by the committee, who were appointed by the co-owners, including the chairman who steers the ship, ensures minutes are taken (by the Thai staff) ensures audits are undertaken (by Thai auditors) and ensures the JP duly reports and documents the whole process annually to the Land Office.

A co-owner is not required to have a work permit to sit in an AGM and propose agenda items and vote and demand accountability. Further a co- owner is entitled to discuss issues for the good and benefit of the condominium, and where necessary can propose the removal of staff, management, services or indeed committee members if that co-owner wishes!

The committee is made up of those co-owners elected at the AGM . This smaller group of co- owners have their own mini meetings, perhaps bi-monthly or quarterly in a similar vein to the AGM. Minutes are taken. The JP, or the admin/facilities manager would be in attendance and will be appointed to take the minutes. The Thai staff would report to the committee on the daily operations and expenditure and ask for guidance and authority where problems have arisen or extraordinary expenditure is deemed necessary.

Guys you can argue until you are blue in the face ... You do NOT need a WP to sit on such a committee, and that includes the chair person. All of the work should be undertaken by Thai's. It really is a very simple and uncomplicated process.

The reason for using the word 'Board' now is used in the revised Thai Condo Act of 2551 (2008) and states in Section 37 "There shall be a Condominium Corporate Board consisting of members of not less that three etc. The Act thence forth refers to the 'Board' in several places i.e., Sections 38 "The Board shall have the power and duty as follows: etc." and in Section 42/1 "The Board shall arrange to have the Ordinary General Meeting convened once a year etc."

Whether the word 'Board' has now confused the various legal firms when addressing the work permit issue for Board Chairman and Board members is beyond my pay grade.

[Maestro]

Removed some troll posts, abusive posts, off-topic posts, and the replies to them.

[iancnx]

Qkd888. Board. Thanks for the correction.

Condominium Corporate Board instead of Committee? Seems like a convoluted title to me. Is that really the correct translation. Where does the Corporate element come into all of this? Corporation?

So I now assume the lawyer (link posted earlier) really does believe a WP,is necessary. I still maintain this is nonsense.

[qkd888]

Qkd888. Board. Thanks for the correction.

Condominium Corporate Board instead of Committee? Seems like a convoluted title to me. Is that really the correct translation. Where does the Corporate element come into all of this? Corporation?

So I now assume the lawyer (link posted earlier) really does believe a WP,is necessary. I still maintain this is nonsense.

Of course translations can always be a problem. The quotes were taken from published translations of the Thai Condo Acts of 2522 (1979) and 2551 (2008) found on-line at <samuiforsale.com> and they also published a complete up-dated version of the revised 2008 Act.

When we recently filed our revised local Regulations we inadvertently under Meeting Notice stated "The Manager shall send written notice to all Co-Owners summoning all General Meetings etc., the local Land Office kicked it back instructing us to replace the word 'Manager' with the word 'Board.'

Further, in the <samuiforsale.com> translation of Section 3 of the 2008 Act it states "The definition of the words "General Meeting." "Board." "Director." and "Manager shall be added in between the words "Bylaws" and "Competent Official" in Section 4 of the Condominium Act of 1979. Specifically:

"General Meeting" means an Ordinary General Meeting or an Extraordinary Meeting of joint owners, as the case may be

"Board" means Condominium Corporate Board

"Member" means a member of the Condominium Corporate Board

"Manager' means a Manager of the Condominium Corporate

Why Condominium Corporate, who knows?

The site Samuiforsale also publishes two handbooks: Condominium Laws in Thailand, Buying a Condominium / Practical Legal for Foreign Ownership and Condominium Admin Handbook, Juristic Condo Handbook (Thailand).

In none of their translated versions of the Thai Condo Acts or completed smooth copy of the revised Act or either of the two handbooks cited above, is there any reference to Work Permits. I did direct my original question re WP for foreign Board Chairman and foreign Committee Members to Samuiforsale, which to-date remains unanswered.

Not withstanding the replay to my same question to 'Ask the Lawyer' on ThaiVisa, most posts including a similar question to the Phuket Gazette a few years ago, seem to just refer one to the general definition of work. No where to-date can I find a specific law that states foreign Condo Board Chairman and/or members need work permits. And of course no one has ever published the results of the case against the Canadian individual. I also have been unable to find any other instances of legal action taken against a foreign Board Chairman or member for lack of a WP. But as many have said that doesn't mean it can't happen. If anyone can find a written law addressing specifically WPs for foreign Board Chairman and/or members, please post the reference. He said, she said or legal office says is not really helpful.

[mahjongguy]

There is no government list of specific activities which require a work permit. There is no government list of specific activities which do not require a work permit.

The Condo Act mentions no exemptions, and the Labor Act is intentionally fuzzy. That's just the way things are here.

So, it's up to the individual to make up his or her mind. What do you believe is the risk (none, a little, a lot) of being on the Board, of being an officer or the JP, versus the benefit to you?

[Arkady]

Being on any type of board or committee that involves attending meetings or performing duties of any type in Thailand, whether for remuneration or not, is defined as work under the Working of Aliens Act and requires a work permit. However, you can normally expect to get away with this kind of work and other government dept don't usually care, e.g. the Commerce Ministry, Revenue Dept and Land Dept don't usually ask to see a WP for a foreign authorised director. However, banks sometimes ask to see a WP, if you are authorised signatory for a corporate account and the same might apply to a JP account.

In certain special circumstances it can be a serious problem, e.g. I know two farangs who applied for permanent residence and were advised to to withdraw their applications a couple of years into the process because it had been noticed that they were non-executive directors of subsidiary companies without having WPs for those additional jobs, even though they were unpaid. They were told that the Labour Ministry would prosecute them, if they refused to withdraw their applications but they could withdraw them, straighten up the problem and re-apply.

[Maestro]

Of course translations can always be a problem. The quotes were taken from published translations of the Thai Condo Acts of 2522 (1979) and 2551 (2008) found on-line at <samuiforsale.com> and they also published a complete up-dated version of the revised 2008 Act.

...

Further, in the <samuiforsale.com> translation of Section 3 of the 2008 Act it states "The definition of the words "General Meeting." "Board." "Director." and "Manager shall be added in between the words "Bylaws" and "Competent Official" in Section 4 of the Condominium Act of 1979. Specifically:

"General Meeting" means an Ordinary General Meeting or an Extraordinary Meeting of joint owners, as the case may be

"Board" means Condominium Corporate Board

"Member" means a member of the Condominium Corporate Board

"Manager' means a Manager of the Condominium Corporate

...

As qkd888 forgot to give a link to the specific page with the updated Condominium Act on samuiforsale.com I looked for it and found this link:

http://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/new-thailand-condominium-act-2008.html

[Maestro]

...

The site Samuiforsale also publishes two handbooks: Condominium Laws in Thailand, Buying a Condominium / Practical Legal for Foreign Ownership and Condominium Admin Handbook, Juristic Condo Handbook (Thailand).

In none of their translated versions of the Thai Condo Acts or completed smooth copy of the revised Act or either of the two handbooks cited above, is there any reference to Work Permits. I did direct my original question re WP for foreign Board Chairman and foreign Committee Members to Samuiforsale, which to-date remains unanswered.

...

It is wrong to expect that the Condominium Act should have a clause about work permits. There are many laws about matters that apply to people, which can include foreigners, working in Thailand, and none of them except the Alien Working Act talks about work permits. Take, for example, the Civil Commercial Code, which has detailed rules about various types of juristic persons but not a single word about work permits.

[Maestro]

...

When we recently filed our revised local Regulations we inadvertently under Meeting Notice stated "The Manager shall send written notice to all Co-Owners summoning all General Meetings etc., the local Land Office kicked it back instructing us to replace the word 'Manager' with the word 'Board.'

...

At what Land Office was this, ie in what province?

Is it necessary to submit the Condominium Regulations not only in the Thai original but also an English translation? It is kind of your local Land Office to check not only the Thai text for conformity to the Condominium Act, but also the translation.

There are several English translations of the Condominium Act out there and I am using the attached version (which uses "Committee", "Committee Member" and "Manager"). My reading of it is that it is indeed the responsibility of the "Manager", ie the Juristic Person Manager, to send the notice of invitation for a General Meeting, not the "Committee" or, in your translation of the Condominium Act, the "Board". It would appear, therefore, that the English text of your Condominium Regulations, after replacing "Manager" with "Board", does not conform to the Condominium Act and you may want to check if at least the Thai text is correct.

Condominium Act - 2522 1979 - updated until 2008.pdf

[qkd888]

The LO we use is in Phuket. They retained only the Thai translation of our up-dated Regs.

We worked from the samuiforsale site, specifically <http://www.samuiforsale.com/law-texts/new-thailand-condominium-act-2008.html>.

Section 3 has the definition for "Board.' We mistakenly used the term "Manager" shall arrange to have the General Meeting, when we should have used the term "Board" as referred to in Section 42/1 of the 2008 Act. At least that is the word used in the above cited translation by samuiforsale. When we took our revised regs to the Phuket LO, they specifically made us change the word 'Manager" to "Board" as regards, Board shall arrange to have the Ordinary General Meeting convened once a year etc.

The confusion may be that in Section 42, the Thai Act uses the word "Manager" shall arrange to have a General Meeting convened which shall be deemed to be the first Ordinary General Meeting within six months from the date of the registration of the condominium corporate in order that the Meeting can appoint the Board . . . etc.

For sure there must be many translations of the Thai Act in circulation and different Land Offices may say different things. The important result for us, was that once we made the change in our Thai version of the Condo Regs, the official stamped and signed each page of the Thai version. And as stated above only put the Thai version in our file.