British 'Finnwatch' activist faces prosecution in Thailand

[Globeman]

No matter if the charges are true or false, this so called government or whatever they call themself are going after farangs for whatever reason they can. Mark my words, immigration policies will change in the next year.

Show us a year when they didn't change.

This is the fourth or fifth charge in a case that has been ongoing since long before the coup. It is criminal defamation law, which is a ridiculous concept, and total;ly unjust, but it has nothing at all to do with the junta coming after farangs "for whatever reason they can" .... Actually, they have been leaving farangs pretty much alone as far as summons and detention goes, knowing full well the unwanted international outcry that would result. (And as if that didn't strike sufficient terror into their hearts, the paranoia and whining on ThaiVisa would be enough to bring them to their knees.)

[max72]

what is wrong with that to investigate working conditions

Try googling criminal defamation since that was why he was arrested. Not for qeustioning the workers

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It is defamation only when the statements are false. If they were true (which I don't know ) , it is not defamation.

Edited June 20, 2014 by max72

[timewilltell]

what is wrong with that to investigate working conditions

Try googling criminal defamation since that was why he was arrested. Not for qeustioning the workers

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

It is defamation only when the statements are false. If they were true (which I don't know ) , it is not defamation.

Maybe in your country Max, not the same laws in Thailand nor the same concept of law and justice here. Unfortunately foreigners assume because the words of the law look similar that the end result of justice is the same - it's not because the whole mindset here is different.

As another example there is a fairly universal concept in the west of buyer beware. In Thailand that concept is alien.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[German Viking]

No matter if the charges are true or false, this so called government or whatever they call themself are going after farangs for whatever reason they can. Mark my words, immigration policies will change in the next year.

Show us a year when they didn't change.

This is the fourth or fifth charge in a case that has been ongoing since long before the coup. It is criminal defamation law, which is a ridiculous concept, and total;ly unjust, but it has nothing at all to do with the junta coming after farangs "for whatever reason they can" .... Actually, they have been leaving farangs pretty much alone as far as summons and detention goes, knowing full well the unwanted international outcry that would result. (And as if that didn't strike sufficient terror into their hearts, the paranoia and whining on ThaiVisa would be enough to bring them to their knees.)

Hi Globeman I like your comment mostly the last sentence this remembered me that I forgot in my comment before a very important group of ppl the "Paranoid Whiners". I apologize for my incomplete comment(LOL).

[timewilltell]

Oxymoron of the day the Thai "public secret." I hope Mr. Hall has the resources necessary to defend himself and win the case. If it is a charge against printed or video media, then it is libel and the defense is 'truth." Was it proven to be true? It's a certainty that Mr. Hall has his evidence and hopefully will receive a fair trial and unbiased interpretation by the judges.

Unfortunately 'truth' is not the defense you think it is under the Thai defamation laws. These laws are horrendous and do nothing to better the country but protect criminality and malpractice and hamper progress.

Thailand does not like its dirty laundry aired in public, true or not. Like its society it prefers things unexposed and hidden so it can deceive itself of reality. It is a mirror of society and the way people personally conduct themselves as a general rule.

Western nations are guilty of turning a blind eye for the benefit of profits which is just as nauseating, preferring to pay lip service to fool their consumers, the average person who does not want to support slavery and in humane conditions and would prefer to buy from more morally responsible companies. Unfortunately the same people want things as cheaply as possible which does not gel.

What a wonderful world we live in.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Are these migrent workers being forced to work in these factories or are they in Thailand working because the pay and conditions in Thailand are better than in there own countries?

If this is about migrent workers on boats whitnessing mirders than we have a different case,,,murder. Why is this about workers willing to work for more money than they could earn elswhere and not about exploited, forced, slavory if this is what's happening???

The initial attraction made by the promise of good wages is revealed to be false unfortunately late; with low wages and indebted beyond their means, employees feel forced to cooperate with an increasing demand set by the employer and the "job" becomes a legalised form of slavery. At least this is how it works for most people in the UK.

In answer to the first response, yes the pay is better but I think the conditions are no better and most likely worse. The Thai law, as I understand it, pretty much forces the workers to use agents to get jobs here. The agents take a portion of their earnings added to which the police extort them as you will see if you spend any time at a construction site. Some avoid the police but then immigration extort them in stead. Some are forced onto fishing vessels that never dock and become virtual slaves. I think your response looks just at the face of things, maybe delve a little deeper, especially in Asia where little is really as it seems.

I don't think the UK has many parallels and certainly not in scale nor sanctioned by the authorities which is what makes the situation here very very different. Why do you think these thousands of people ran away. It couldn't be because of fear do you think?

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[rebelplatoon]

Instead of acting upon the information in the report (try to better the situation of the workers) the idea is to take someone to court for defamation. The typical case of danger of "loss of face" is in progress. Good luck Andy, hope they will at least in the end act to help these people.

Let's make Thailand a better place.

[Mudcrab]

Oxymoron of the day the Thai "public secret." I hope Mr. Hall has the resources necessary to defend himself and win the case. If it is a charge against printed or video media, then it is libel and the defense is 'truth." Was it proven to be true? It's a certainty that Mr. Hall has his evidence and hopefully will receive a fair trial and unbiased interpretation by the judges.

Unfortunately 'truth' is not the defense you think it is under the Thai defamation laws. These laws are horrendous and do nothing to better the country but protect criminality and malpractice and hamper progress.

Thailand does not like its dirty laundry aired in public, true or not. Like its society it prefers things unexposed and hidden so it can deceive itself of reality. It is a mirror of society and the way people personally conduct themselves as a general rule.

Western nations are guilty of turning a blind eye for the benefit of profits which is just as nauseating, preferring to pay lip service to fool their consumers, the average person who does not want to support slavery and in humane conditions and would prefer to buy from more morally responsible companies. Unfortunately the same people want things as cheaply as possible which does not gel.

What a wonderful world we live in.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Are these migrent workers being forced to work in these factories or are they in Thailand working because the pay and conditions in Thailand are better than in there own countries?

If this is about migrent workers on boats whitnessing mirders than we have a different case,,,murder. Why is this about workers willing to work for more money than they could earn elswhere and not about exploited, forced, slavory if this is what's happening???

It's about people who have no prospects in their own country who need to feed their families and because of that they are wide open to exploitation and slavery, both of which are in contravention of international and labour law, as well as possibly being paid below the minimum wage which is against Thai law. Those who think it's a simple consequence of the free labour market are simplistic and ignorant.

How does this become Thailands problem??

Many people all over the world have such issues and they deal with it and survive. Illegal immigration is a scourge on all societies. The people in the countries with the problems need to deal with it in one way or another - Man Up - not make it a problem in someone else's country.

From what I understand Europe is now paying big time for the cuddly feely approach taken in recent years to such illegal immigrants and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

[Mudcrab]

Really he should know better then to get involved in Thailand.

You're probably right to some degree.....however, some people feel a genuine responsiblity to help those who can't help themselves.....the poor worldwide appreciate outsiders assistance.

I believe he knew of the possible outcomes of reporting these matters, in Thailand, prior to going to press......

Yes mate, another loud mouth <deleted> of the red variety who sees himself as the new Mao Tse Tung of the oppressed with the same aim - make them free then oppress them.

They are a dime a dozen - call them activists or whatever you will, they are all the same. they hate freedom and will use any cause to achieve their long term goal.

[crazydrummerpauly]

What a disgusting use of law this is - absolutely typical of a repressive paranoid regime. It's beyond me why anyone wants to move their whole life to such a society - unless they are running from an even MORE repressive one of course !

[Jools]

The "Criminal Defamation" charge is used in much the same way as the Lese Majeste charge in Thailand. Effectively, anyone with money has the right to squelch free speech. I've noticed that every kind of business from large hospitals to corporations use the "defamation" charge with often devastating results for those who did nothing more than tell the truth.

[wilcopops]

"They should go elsewhere" That has to be the most facile comment of the thread so far...... you clearly have no idea how these people are exploited.

My reply,,,

I'm sorry, I may not have the total picture but think that if there is slavory happening there needs to be something done, yes, like I said, bring the hammer down hard.

If it's wages than move on. Again like I said, I know a few dozen Bermeese workers happy with 9 to 20 thousand Baht per month.

A couple of Burmese doesn't account for the other 2 million

[wilcopops]

Really he should know better then to get involved in Thailand.

You're probably right to some degree.....however, some people feel a genuine responsiblity to help those who can't help themselves.....the poor worldwide appreciate outsiders assistance.

I believe he knew of the possible outcomes of reporting these matters, in Thailand, prior to going to press......

Yes mate, another loud mouth <deleted> of the red variety who sees himself as the new Mao Tse Tung of the oppressed with the same aim - make them free then oppress them.

They are a dime a dozen - call them activists or whatever you will, they are all the same. they hate freedom and will use any cause to achieve their long term goal.

So you are saying that there is no exploitation or if there was no one should do anything about it?

Perhaps youbshould heed the words of Mr Burke - All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

It applies to all of us

Edited June 20, 2014 by wilcopops

[englishoak]

There is no freedom of speech in Thailand .To even talk film or write about about illegality in the country is better done from outside, many Thais know that. So why the surprise and sympathy for Hall ? He should have known better.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Because good men stand up for what they believe in.

Deformation law here is used as a weapon all too often to try to silence people.

When a body or group that is trying to do good is attacked in this manner by who it has highlighted is flaunting rules and acting very questionably it just shines the spotlight even more. Same as the many reports of trafficking and labour conditions.

People are murdered here for standing up for themselves and what is right for others. The point is this, everyone deep inside knows how they would feel if treated in the manner slaves are or abused or if trafficked, maybe your children.

They dont need to be taught what is right and what is wrong for they already know in their hearts. What they do need is to be forced to be moral and that is done by public opinion and laws The difference is without people standing up and saying NO MORE nothing changes.

People throughout history have sacrificed themselves in many ways for what they believe in, it is a rare type of courage when it is done for strangers.

There is no surprise but certainly outrage, If you have no sympathy then your not one of the rare ones that put themselves at risk for the sake of others.

Really this is all just a question of treating people like people not animals just because their luck didint have them born into a board room.

It is people like Hall that remind us what it is to be human, civilised and show true unselfish courage, it is companies like this "thing" that remind us they dont give a damn about people at all and self serving as they can be. So why buy their crap if its not palatable ? seems fair to me. Its not deformation just stark truth, employee treatment is sub standard... fact... dont like the drop in sales ? then they should clean up their act and show they care..

Pineapples is what they mainly export, just have to read the label where they come from and vote with your pocket if you dont like it..

Edited June 20, 2014 by englishoak

[Johpa]

I know at least 3 dozen Bermeese workers, all earning 9,000B to 20,000B, is that explytation? The Thais won't take these same jobs. If the workers in the factories and on the boats aren't happy they should go elswhere in Thailand for work, or back home. I'm not defending low wages, I just don't see there can be any other issue here than forced slavory. If forced slavory is happening than yes, drop the hammer down and drop it hard.

Did anyone accuse any of the employers of your dozens of Burmese aquaintances with expoitation? Thais take plenty of low wage jobs in factories throughout the Kingdom. But there are some industries in, say, construction, agriculture and fishing, that don't want to pay the same wages that are paid in the more urban factories. What happens here is that Burmese flee Burma, often from persecution or from dire economic straits such as their land being conviscated by government actors, and enter Thailand ignorant of the plight of illegal workers. Once accepting employment they are forced to work for far below wages any Thai would accept. They are then threatened if they complain or attempt to find work elsewhere, threats backed up by the local police who are paid to act with prejudice if they should find such illegals leaving the plantation so to speak. Sometimes the chains of slavery are not clearly visible to those who do not quite open their eyes wide enough. Mr. Hall and Finnwatch attempt to open those eyes and now the Kingdom is using its ridiculous defamation laws once again to intimidate those who would justifiably cause the Kingdom to lose face. Chaiyo!

[dude123]

Thailand has been making world news for quite some time now but for all the wrong reasons. How more ridiculous can you get than charging someone who is investigating human abuses.

Edited June 20, 2014 by dude123

[Chris Lawrence]

Legal action against Hall has raised international criticism. In addition to Finnwatch, numerous NGOs and global union federations have condemned the harassment. 5 UN Special Rapporteurs have sought clarifications amidst concern Hall is being targeted for his work to promote migrant rights. – Hall told us he will voluntary take part in all judicial processes.

He has done nothing wrong and hopes his case will shed only further light on systematic migrant rights abuses in Thailand, said Vartiala. Together Natural Fruit has raised 4 charges against Hall. The initial 2 criminal charges relate to defamation by publication/propagation under the Thai Criminal Code and breach of the Computer Crimes Act, for which initial hearings have begun but the case awaits summons delivery confirmation by the Bangkok South Criminal Court.

A third charge relates to civil defamation.The latest and fourth charge against Hall, Natural Fruit Company Ltd. filed additional criminal charges against Hall at Bangna Police Station for criminal defamation. If found guilty of criminal charges laid against him at Bangkok South Criminal Court, Hall could face together seven years in prison per count. Natural Fruit are also claiming 300 million baht ($10 million) in damages from Hall in the civil case filed at Nakhon Pathom Civil Court.

The latest charges at Bangna Police Station that were today taken forward by the Attorney General and Prakanong Court carry a maximum sentence of one years imprisonment and a fine not exceeding 20, 000 Baht (US$650).

Serious problems in Natural Fruit’s labour conditions have been highlighted in several other reports and research as well as the Finnwatch report, to which Hall assisted initially.

According to Finnwatch’s information, Thai authorities have not raised any legal actions against Natural Fruit.

Best of luck Andy, one day truth here will be valued not punished.

Englishoak, thanks for further information. Do you know why the Natural Fruit Co went after Hall and not the other 2 companies?

It sounds a strange action as it has highlighted this practice even more.

Thailand's new military government was the only government to vote against the treaty at ILO's annual ministerial conference, a protocol to the ILO's Forced Labour Convention of 1930, aims to halt the practice of forced or compulsory labour by requiring countries ratifying it to identify and release victims, ensure them access to compensation and punish perpetrators.

[MyFriend You]

Oxymoron of the day the Thai "public secret." I hope Mr. Hall has the resources necessary to defend himself and win the case. If it is a charge against printed or video media, then it is libel and the defense is 'truth." Was it proven to be true? It's a certainty that Mr. Hall has his evidence and hopefully will receive a fair trial and unbiased interpretation by the judges.

Unfortunately 'truth' is not the defense you think it is under the Thai defamation laws. These laws are horrendous and do nothing to better the country but protect criminality and malpractice and hamper progress.

Thailand does not like its dirty laundry aired in public, true or not. Like its society it prefers things unexposed and hidden so it can deceive itself of reality. It is a mirror of society and the way people personally conduct themselves as a general rule.

Western nations are guilty of turning a blind eye for the benefit of profits which is just as nauseating, preferring to pay lip service to fool their consumers, the average person who does not want to support slavery and in humane conditions and would prefer to buy from more morally responsible companies. Unfortunately the same people want things as cheaply as possible which does not gel.

What a wonderful world we live in.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Are these migrent workers being forced to work in these factories or are they in Thailand working because the pay and conditions in Thailand are better than in there own countries?

If this is about migrent workers on boats whitnessing mirders than we have a different case,,,murder. Why is this about workers willing to work for more money than they could earn elswhere and not about exploited, forced, slavory if this is what's happening???

Ummm, all the above?? Have you ever been to Burma??

[englishoak]

Legal action against Hall has raised international criticism. In addition to Finnwatch, numerous NGOs and global union federations have condemned the harassment. 5 UN Special Rapporteurs have sought clarifications amidst concern Hall is being targeted for his work to promote migrant rights. – Hall told us he will voluntary take part in all judicial processes.

He has done nothing wrong and hopes his case will shed only further light on systematic migrant rights abuses in Thailand, said Vartiala. Together Natural Fruit has raised 4 charges against Hall. The initial 2 criminal charges relate to defamation by publication/propagation under the Thai Criminal Code and breach of the Computer Crimes Act, for which initial hearings have begun but the case awaits summons delivery confirmation by the Bangkok South Criminal Court.

A third charge relates to civil defamation.The latest and fourth charge against Hall, Natural Fruit Company Ltd. filed additional criminal charges against Hall at Bangna Police Station for criminal defamation. If found guilty of criminal charges laid against him at Bangkok South Criminal Court, Hall could face together seven years in prison per count. Natural Fruit are also claiming 300 million baht ($10 million) in damages from Hall in the civil case filed at Nakhon Pathom Civil Court.

The latest charges at Bangna Police Station that were today taken forward by the Attorney General and Prakanong Court carry a maximum sentence of one years imprisonment and a fine not exceeding 20, 000 Baht (US$650).

Serious problems in Natural Fruit’s labour conditions have been highlighted in several other reports and research as well as the Finnwatch report, to which Hall assisted initially.

According to Finnwatch’s information, Thai authorities have not raised any legal actions against Natural Fruit.

Best of luck Andy, one day truth here will be valued not punished.

Englishoak, thanks for further information. Do you know why the Natural Fruit Co went after Hall and not the other 2 companies?

It sounds a strange action as it has highlighted this practice even more.

Thailand's new military government was the only government to vote against the treaty at ILO's annual ministerial conference, a protocol to the ILO's Forced Labour Convention of 1930, aims to halt the practice of forced or compulsory labour by requiring countries ratifying it to identify and release victims, ensure them access to compensation and punish perpetrators.

I did yes and its sheer cowardice to attack and attempt revenge on an academic and professional that is being asked to evaluate and put in a report... he was just doing his job, disgusting is what it is.

They have gone after Andy because he was commissioned by Finnwatch and therefore a contractor not an employee, to go after Finnwatch would probably mean tangling with international law courts and international business, by going after the guy for doing his job and not his employer is just cowardice. They know they wont get anywhere with the big boys that pack some punch back so are chasing the little guy. Only Andy isnt without his friends and supporters, including the UN, they may have miscalculated this one.

Its much the same as Shell Oil suing the Iraq WMD evaluators if contracted for the entire war and revenue loss... ludicrous. And that was a proven lie and mistake whereas this is just the truth he's getting hounded for.

Best for Thailand to drop this and have a quiet word with the fruit co... there are a lot of people/organisations behind the likes of Andy and the reporters on Phuket that want a light shone on the injustice of suing the truth bringers that are highlighting the plight of others as much as anyone. Right now after being downgraded still being seen to try and drag people through Thai courts will do nothing for its International image, which is quite frankly in a total mess in so many areas on the international stage right now....

[6NS]

I know at least 3 dozen Bermeese workers, all earning 9,000B to 20,000B, is that explytation? The Thais won't take these same jobs. If the workers in the factories and on the boats aren't happy they should go elswhere in Thailand for work, or back home. I'm not defending low wages, I just don't see there can be any other issue here than forced slavory. If forced slavory is happening than yes, drop the hammer down and drop it hard.

Did anyone accuse any of the employers of your dozens of Burmese aquaintances with expoitation? Thais take plenty of low wage jobs in factories throughout the Kingdom. But there are some industries in, say, construction, agriculture and fishing, that don't want to pay the same wages that are paid in the more urban factories. What happens here is that Burmese flee Burma, often from persecution or from dire economic straits such as their land being conviscated by government actors, and enter Thailand ignorant of the plight of illegal workers. Once accepting employment they are forced to work for far below wages any Thai would accept. They are then threatened if they complain or attempt to find work elsewhere, threats backed up by the local police who are paid to act with prejudice if they should find such illegals leaving the plantation so to speak. Sometimes the chains of slavery are not clearly visible to those who do not quite open their eyes wide enough. Mr. Hall and Finnwatch attempt to open those eyes and now the Kingdom is using its ridiculous defamation laws once again to intimidate those who would justifiably cause the Kingdom to lose face. Chaiyo!

Indeed it's great the man had the courage to go this route and so very sad he's run up against Fascisms at it's highest. I'm sorry that I myself was ignorant to what is going on in places other than my own back yard.

[6NS]

Oxymoron of the day the Thai "public secret." I hope Mr. Hall has the resources necessary to defend himself and win the case. If it is a charge against printed or video media, then it is libel and the defense is 'truth." Was it proven to be true? It's a certainty that Mr. Hall has his evidence and hopefully will receive a fair trial and unbiased interpretation by the judges.

Unfortunately 'truth' is not the defense you think it is under the Thai defamation laws. These laws are horrendous and do nothing to better the country but protect criminality and malpractice and hamper progress.

Thailand does not like its dirty laundry aired in public, true or not. Like its society it prefers things unexposed and hidden so it can deceive itself of reality. It is a mirror of society and the way people personally conduct themselves as a general rule.

Western nations are guilty of turning a blind eye for the benefit of profits which is just as nauseating, preferring to pay lip service to fool their consumers, the average person who does not want to support slavery and in humane conditions and would prefer to buy from more morally responsible companies. Unfortunately the same people want things as cheaply as possible which does not gel.

What a wonderful world we live in.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Are these migrent workers being forced to work in these factories or are they in Thailand working because the pay and conditions in Thailand are better than in there own countries?

If this is about migrent workers on boats whitnessing mirders than we have a different case,,,murder. Why is this about workers willing to work for more money than they could earn elswhere and not about exploited, forced, slavory if this is what's happening???

Ummm, all the above?? Have you ever been to Burma??

Here you bring up Burma,,,Burma's bad conditions are why I thought they were better off here. This is why I posted in favor of them being here and chosing to work for what I thought they'd be paid, 9000B to 20,000B like they do here in Phuket. I thought they had the right and hopfully a couple hundre Baht and could chose where they landed. I see now I was wrong and there is indeed slavory happening (this without proof,,,,to me anyways). Other than the slavory aspect I see no reason to give them special treatment.

[Equalizer]

Employment conditions are an ever evolving part of industry. From the work houses back in 18th century Britain, to the modern day sweat shops in Asia. It is also very much viewed in differing perspectives dependent on the social status of the person making the assessment about the subject. I hear the unemployed people in Britain complain about the normal working class people, i hear the working class complain about the middle class people, i hear the middle class people complain about the upper class people. It seems there is no end until everyone complains about Bill Gates and Carlos Slim.

[peecee]

defamation laws exists for a reason.

To allow scumbag's who exploit their workers no doubt!

[Cadan]

Gents, The rich will always be living off the poors. Thats how the globe rolls. Some parts of the world its better some its worse... but it will always come down to this point. We as humans can only do our best and help where we can. Treat and respect them accordingly for what they are and what they wanna achieve in their lives...

[GuestHouse]

This case is receiving further coverage in The Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/itf-thailand-government-drop-andy-hall-defamation-trial