Pump safety

[JesseFrank]

I'm sure the devil is involved in what happened today.

Only yesterday I had in mind to start a thread about this as I had a leak at a waterfilter in the pumphouse, which is located in a far corner of my land, so I can't hear the pumps running when at the house.

I wanted to ask if there is some kind of safety that warns me, or even better cut off the pump, if a pump runs for an extended time most probably because of a leak.

Then today I wanted to install something in the pumphouse and took some measurement then went to buy a waterpipe.

When I returned after about an hour and went straight to the pumphouse with the waterpipe I noticed that 2 pumps were running constantly. The one that pumps the water from the collecting tank to the tank that provides the house, and the pump that provides one side of the house with water.

I knew something was wrong so ran to the house and saw the water on the terras coming out of the master bedroom. I'm lucky every bathroom is a separate circuit with a valve in the pumphouse so I could quickly close the faulty circuit. A flexible tube from the wall connection to the bath faucet under the bath had exploded.

lucky the water had only ran for about an hour, so it was only about 2000 liter in the house , but it could as well have happened in the morning as I had been away all morning, or at night when I'm asleep.

In such an event the damage is inconceivable of course.

So is there a safety that can be build to prevent this happen again ?

[lopburi3]

Hopefully your bathrooms will have a drain that can keep up with the water supply when such happens as not sure there is anything short of turning off electric to pumps for when you are away or sleeping. I would make a check of the flex hose connections/replace just in case there are others at end of life - they do seem to be a weak link.

You could rig up a light or alarm to show when pumps are operating - or even use a baby monitor to listen - but that will not help if nobody in home. Turning power supply off would likely be a cheaper and better option. But suspect the chance of it happening again is minimal (unless you upset the same devil again).

[JesseFrank]

Hopefully your bathrooms will have a drain that can keep up with the water supply when such happens as not sure there is anything short of turning off electric to pumps for when you are away or sleeping. I would make a check of the flex hose connections/replace just in case there are others at end of life - they do seem to be a weak link.

You could rig up a light or alarm to show when pumps are operating - or even use a baby monitor to listen - but that will not help if nobody in home. Turning power supply off would likely be a cheaper and better option. But suspect the chance of it happening again is minimal (unless you upset the same devil again).

I indeed have to change the flexible to the cold water faucet as well, as it looks like it has it's best time, and will check the flexible tubes to the waterheaters in the house tomorrow. Those are easy to check, but one under a corner bath with a cover isn't that convenient to check.

Lets hope it doesn't happen again, because I have a floor drain in the bathroom right next to the bathtub, but I believe it or not a bottle of toilet cleaner stood on top of it.

[Crossy]

If you have a bit of hobby electronics nouse it should be easy to build something that will either simply indicate that the pump is running, or, more complex of course, turn it off after a pre-set run time.

A quick Google returned this:-

It's intended to turn on a shop-vac when a table saw is running, but would happily turn on a pump indicator light (change the 110V transformers to 220V items).

Add a 555 timer circuit to cut all power until a reset button is pressed and you're heading in the right direction.

[JesseFrank]

If you have a bit of hobby electronics nouse it should be easy to build something that will either simply indicate that the pump is running, or, more complex of course, turn it off after a pre-set run time.

A quick Google returned this:-

Current Sense Switch.gif

It's intended to turn on a shop-vac when a table saw is running, but would happily turn on a pump indicator light (change the 110V transformers to 220V items).

Add a 555 timer circuit to cut all power until a reset button is pressed and you're heading in the right direction.

Thanks for the info, this would indeed be useful, that is ofcourse if you're handy with electronics, which I'm not.

I guess however if this can be made, it will also be available ready made somewhere. To initiate a search, should I search for current sense switch, or should I use another phrase ?

[lopburi3]

I suspect your drain may need a check that it has a odor trap and has water to seal it if a bottle covered it (likely placed there to prevent odor from entering). Water has to be replaced when it evaporates if you do not regularly use the drain.

[JesseFrank]

I suspect your drain may need a check that it has a odor trap and has water to seal it if a bottle covered it (likely placed there to prevent odor from entering). Water has to be replaced when it evaporates if you do not regularly use the drain.

The bottle was indeed there for odor reasons.

Where I come from and as well here in Thailand we don't use odor traps, or so called elbows, in underground drains because if they block you maybe in for some trouble.

We use the floor drains with odor traps, but when I build the house the only type of floor drains that were available were the one with the upside down cup under the drain cover. Most people will know already that this typer drains very slowly, so the only solution is to remove the odor trap.

Now I have found the floor drains with the swing valve underneath, but they are all a tad bigger as the ones I have, which would involve cutting the floor tiles.

[JesseFrank]

If you have a bit of hobby electronics nouse it should be easy to build something that will either simply indicate that the pump is running, or, more complex of course, turn it off after a pre-set run time.

A quick Google returned this:-

Current Sense Switch.gif

It's intended to turn on a shop-vac when a table saw is running, but would happily turn on a pump indicator light (change the 110V transformers to 220V items).

Add a 555 timer circuit to cut all power until a reset button is pressed and you're heading in the right direction.

Thanks for the info, this would indeed be useful, that is ofcourse if you're handy with electronics, which I'm not.

I guess however if this can be made, it will also be available ready made somewhere. To initiate a search, should I search for current sense switch, or should I use another phrase ?

From the other side, would a simple stand alone timer not suffice ? That is of course if a timer that opens after a certain time exists.

[Crossy]

From the other side, would a simple stand alone timer not suffice ? That is of course if a timer that opens after a certain time exists.

Yes, timers that run for a period then open are readily available (even in HomePro).

To use one you would need to modify your pump to bring out the pressure switch, the timer needs to go between the pressure switch and the pump motor.

[JesseFrank]

From the other side, would a simple stand alone timer not suffice ? That is of course if a timer that opens after a certain time exists.

Yes, timers that run for a period then open are readily available (even in HomePro).

To use one you would need to modify your pump to bring out the pressure switch, the timer needs to go between the pressure switch and the pump motor.

So if i use one of those, and set it to lets say 15 minutes, will it reset itself if the pump is stopped before the time limit.

I assume this has the exact same function as the current sense switch, or do I understand that wrong ?

This is what I need right ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-normally-closed-type-trigger-delay-relay-delay-circuit-module-/261247201651

Edited June 20, 2014 by JesseFrank

[Crossy]

That's rather complex Jesse.

You need a run-down timer, I've seen mains powered ones in HomePro. You plug them in and the output stays on for an adjustable time before switching off.

Connecting one between the pressure switch and the motor should do exactly what you want.

Looking for an image to post.

[lopburi3]

I am an electronic guy but would advise "KISS". My drain can keep up with shower flow as long as it is cleaned weekly. But even if you have to replace drain with a bit of tile work it should not cost much more than a timer and be more reliable than trying to run electric timers which turns your pump off half way through flower watering and also solve the odor issue.

[JesseFrank]

I am an electronic guy but would advise "KISS". My drain can keep up with shower flow as long as it is cleaned weekly. But even if you have to replace drain with a bit of tile work it should not cost much more than a timer and be more reliable than trying to run electric timers which turns your pump off half way through flower watering and also solve the odor issue.

The drain is in case of a leak inside the house, while a timer is convenient for a leak anywhere in the piping, or a faulty pressure switch or whatever errors.

The leak at the filter in the pumphouse 2 days ago occurred while I was inside there, and was of a poor plumber job, so I could switch off electric right away, but it could have happened at another time and running for a day or more before discovered.

Flowers are watered by a irrigation system with a centrifugal pump controlled by a controller.

[JesseFrank]

Timer will not be usable because an automatic pump, even with a leak, will not run continuously.

Back to square one.

[Crossy]

Timer will not be usable because an automatic pump, even with a leak, will not run continuously.

Back to square one.

OP stated pumps running continuously, and asked how to prevent that happening again.

Solution provided.

Goalposts now moved, task much more difficult (how to tell a slow-ish leak from genuine water use).

We're now looking at a solution using a flow-meter and a PLC (to detect slow leaks and long run times).

EDIT This may do the trick. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aqua-Alarm-Water-Leak-monitor-Be-green-and-save-Money-NEW-in-the-box-NIB-CIB-/111367113604?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19edff4b84

[JesseFrank]

Timer will not be usable because an automatic pump, even with a leak, will not run continuously.

Back to square one.

OP stated pumps running continuously, and asked how to prevent that happening again.

Solution provided.

Goalposts now moved, task much more difficult (how to tell a slow-ish leak from genuine water use).

We're now looking at a solution using a flow-meter and a PLC (to detect slow leaks and long run times).

EDIT This may do the trick. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aqua-Alarm-Water-Leak-monitor-Be-green-and-save-Money-NEW-in-the-box-NIB-CIB-/111367113604?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19edff4b84

Yesterday with a torn flexible tube, so water flowing freely, the pump would switch on and off constantly. I think that is the correct working of a automatic pump with pressure switch.

The smaller automatic pump which pumps from one tank into the other was running without interruption.

[Crossy]

You could probably still use timers, let me think about this for a while, something to keep the grey cells functional

[JesseFrank]

You could probably still use timers, let me think about this for a while, something to keep the grey cells functional

Please do, because that flow switch is little over the budget, especially because I have to cover at least 2 pumps.

[Mike45]

This might be what you need.

Watts FloodSafe® auto-shutoff connectors protect against catastrophic water damage by automatically shutting off the water supply to plumbing fixtures/appliances if excess water flow is sensed. Water flow through the FloodSafe® device is limited to a factory preset flow rate, any flow over the preset rate will automatically shutoff all flow of water through the device

[IMHO]

How about some bare active or neutral wire with a bare earth wire, a couple of mm above the floor, and on the same breaker as the pump? Then if the water leaks to the point of a small flood, bam! ground fault, RCBO off, tragedy averted.

555

Edited June 27, 2014 by IMHO