Thai kids with expired Thai passports, cannot leave Thailand. How to renew their Thai passports?

[samran]

Get a Lawyer, let them sort it out for you.

Lawyer won't tell him anything that hasn't been said here. And the OP will still have to go to the local Khet or Ampur and sit with his wife and children and get them registered on the tabieen baan anyway. Lawyer will add nothing to the process except fees.

[TerryLH]

OP, you might try having just your wife and kids talk to the house registration folks.

If she still gets resistance, tell her to ask for a supervisor.

You might just be a distraction. You're not really needed for that, just to sign once they are able to apply for new passports.

Edited June 22, 2014 by TerryLH

[bkk_mike]

Get a Lawyer, let them sort it out for you.

Lawyer won't tell him anything that hasn't been said here. And the OP will still have to go to the local Khet or Ampur and sit with his wife and children and get them registered on the tabieen baan anyway. Lawyer will add nothing to the process except fees.

Are you sure he has to attend? I never did, and my kids, including the one born in the UK, with the Thai embassy birth certificate, are now in the Tabien Baan. (I don't think she even took the kids with her, just the documents.)

Admittedly, our marriage certificate is Thai, so we wouldn't have had that issue, although I'm sure there must be unmarried Thai mothers registering their kids on their Tabien Baan's, which begs the question of why they need the marriage registration?

Admittedly, that was in Bangkok, maybe he was in a district that doesn't deal with many foreign-born Thais, and the person he talked to doesn't know what they're doing?

Edited June 22, 2014 by bkk_mike

[samran]

Get a Lawyer, let them sort it out for you.

Lawyer won't tell him anything that hasn't been said here. And the OP will still have to go to the local Khet or Ampur and sit with his wife and children and get them registered on the tabieen baan anyway. Lawyer will add nothing to the process except fees.

Are you sure he has to attend? I never did, and my kids, including the one born in the UK, with the Thai embassy birth certificate, are now in the Tabien Baan. (I don't think she even took the kids with her, just the documents.)

Admittedly, our marriage certificate is Thai, so we wouldn't have had that issue, although I'm sure there must be unmarried Thai mothers registering their kids on their Tabien Baan's, which begs the question of why they need the marriage registration?

Admittedly, that was in Bangkok, maybe he was in a district that doesn't deal with many foreign-born Thais, and the person he talked to doesn't know what they're doing?

Strictly speaking he probably doesn't. Similar to you, when I got registered on the tabieen baan at 30, only my mother, my overseas issued Thai birth certificate and another Thai citizen to 'vouch' for me were required. Note, no marriage certificate - and my parents were married in OZ.

But it seems his local office is asking for all sorts of stuff. So I'd be conservative and just turn up anyway if I was him.

[thainewvisa]

OP here, just want to update. We went to try to add the name of our kids into the house book this morning. Was sent away to translate the NYC marriage certificate. Will see how it goes this afternoon.

One quick question just to not get into troubles again, if we enter Thailand using Thai passports, does it mean we gave up our right as an American citizen? I mean, we are no longer an American citizen because we use Thai passports to enter Thailand? The US embassy won't be able to help us at all for any reason? Please clarify.

[harrry]

OP here, just want to update. We went to try to add the name of our kids into the house book this morning. Was sent away to translate the NYC marriage certificate. Will see how it goes this afternoon.

One quick question just to not get into troubles again, if we enter Thailand using Thai passports, does it mean we gave up our right as an American citizen? I mean, we are no longer an American citizen because we use Thai passports to enter Thailand? The US embassy won't be able to help us at all for any reason? Please clarify.

Whichever passport you enter on any help given by the American Embassy is only a courtesy as they have no right to interfere in the relations between Thailand and its citizens in Thailand.

[ubonjoe]

OP here, just want to update. We went to try to add the name of our kids into the house book this morning. Was sent away to translate the NYC marriage certificate. Will see how it goes this afternoon.

One quick question just to not get into troubles again, if we enter Thailand using Thai passports, does it mean we gave up our right as an American citizen? I mean, we are no longer an American citizen because we use Thai passports to enter Thailand? The US embassy won't be able to help us at all for any reason? Please clarify.

You still have US citizenship but you fall under Thai laws when you are here. This puts limits upon what the embassy can do to help you if you have legal problems.

See this for more info: http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/dual-nationality.html.

[thainewvisa]

OP here, if they enter with US passports next time, how long can they stay? They are 8 and 10. Are they allowed to overstay? Or would they have to get a proper visa and then report every 90 day just like the rest?

[a99az]

This is an interesting problem, but one that I think can be resolved. As some have said if you go to the Ampur with the family and all the documents I would think that they will provide what you need. Failing that you could try leaving Thailand into Cambodia or Malaysia for example as your wife and children could enter with just a slip of paper at the border cost about 30B if I remember right. Then use the US passports to leave there. I have never tried this and I am not sure if it would work, but if all else fails it might be worth a try. Good luck what ever.

[samran]

OP here, if they enter with US passports next time, how long can they stay? They are 8 and 10. Are they allowed to overstay? Or would they have to get a proper visa and then report every 90 day just like the rest?

If they enter on their non-Thai passport:

- People will tell you that children under 15 are not charged for overstay, which is true, but it isn't written into law so is only granted by convention, and can be withdrawn at any time.

- Easiest for them is to get a one year extension of stay, based on proof of showing Thai nationality. But yes, you have to go through the rigmorole of 90 day reporting.

To answer your earlier question - entering on the US passport isn't some sort of 'get of jail free' card. You are still subject to Thai law. Furthermore, in the cases where the person is a Thai dual national it is highly likely that the embassy will refuse to provide consular assistance, regardless of what passport you entered on.

Note also, that in this day and age, 'consular assistance' generally means a list of lawyers known to the embassy if you get into some sort of trouble, and a monthly visit, if that, if you are in jail.

Given your children are still Thai citizens, regarless of what passport they use, they will still be considered as such. In the case of a child dual national born to at least one foregin parent, legislation does not allow for them to renounce Thai citizenship until they are at least 20, and only for the year following their 20th birthday.

I know you've been given the run around since you've arrived with the whole tabieen baan, but to my estimation, if they are Thai citizens, once you've got them registered, life is much, much easier for them to be here on Thai passports (unless you are currently enjoying your daily interactions with the Thai civil service, which can be guaranteed with the 90 day reporting and annual visa extension rigmorole).

Edited June 23, 2014 by samran

[samran]

OP here, just want to update. We went to try to add the name of our kids into the house book this morning. Was sent away to translate the NYC marriage certificate. Will see how it goes this afternoon.

One quick question just to not get into troubles again, if we enter Thailand using Thai passports, does it mean we gave up our right as an American citizen? I mean, we are no longer an American citizen because we use Thai passports to enter Thailand? The US embassy won't be able to help us at all for any reason? Please clarify.

Just a heads up - if they need a translation they probably will be expecting that the translation is also certified by the MFA in Thailand. But see if you can get away without it.

[ubonjoe]

OP here, if they enter with US passports next time, how long can they stay? They are 8 and 10. Are they allowed to overstay? Or would they have to get a proper visa and then report every 90 day just like the rest?

They should always enter on their Thai passports. Many people do it and don't have any problems. You have had a problem because the passports expired. Once you have that problem resolved their will be not be any further problems.

If they enter on their US passports they fall under immigration rules. They would need proper visas or extensions of stay. Children under the age of 15 do not pay overstay fines. But overstaying is not recommended for a long stay.

A returning Thai national that enters the country on a foreign passport can get a one year extension of stay at immigration.

[thainewvisa]

OP here, update on getting names on house book. Was told to go deal with authenticating the marriage certificate at the MFA. Wife barked "rule number 96" that marriage certificate isn't needed for registration. The officer closed the binder and said, OK, we can continue the process, however, this will take a really long time and we won't make it for our July 7th departure. We said, we will give it a try.

Then, it went on for another hour or so, when she spotted the expired passport of the kids, then she said this is going to be a problem. Then, we politely pointed out that without them being properly registered into the house book, then the passports cannot be renewed.

We were sent home and was asked to go back tomorrow to prepare more paperworks for more investigation.

What sort of mess we are in? This is in the middle of the city in Chiang mai. This house book thing doesn't look promising at all. It seems like they are not willing to do it and will find some issues to avoid processing it.

Please advice.

OP.

[ubonjoe]

Just persevere and you will get it done. I think your wife did some good the way it sounds.

[samran]

OP here, update on getting names on house book. Was told to go deal with authenticating the marriage certificate at the MFA. Wife barked "rule number 96" that marriage certificate isn't needed for registration. The officer closed the binder and said, OK, we can continue the process, however, this will take a really long time and we won't make it for our July 7th departure. We said, we will give it a try.

Then, it went on for another hour or so, when she spotted the expired passport of the kids, then she said this is going to be a problem. Then, we politely pointed out that without them being properly registered into the house book, then the passports cannot be renewed.

We were sent home and was asked to go back tomorrow to prepare more paperworks for more investigation.

What sort of mess we are in? This is in the middle of the city in Chiang mai. This house book thing doesn't look promising at all. It seems like they are not willing to do it and will find some issues to avoid processing it.

Please advice.

OP.

It took a couple of trips for me to be registered. Get the docs they want. Probably a good idea to get your passport translated and certified by the MFA now I think about it, just so they have an official Thai document stating your name and other details which will go into the house book too (in thai).

That they've given you a list of documents sounds promising that they are actually following the rules so to speak. The lady where who registered me had to pull out the official binder and study it, and this was in Bangkok. Took a few days as said.

Now, one near miss from my side, the official then decided to ask about my dual nationality. This is the thing - it isn't illegal in Thailand and hasn't been since 1992. Some officials still don't know this and may make an issue about it. My official said she rang immigration in Bangkok and was told it was fine. I suggest keep quiet about your kids US passports, but if it becomes an issue tell them to call immigration in Bangkok. It isnt an issue a municipal level civil sevant can make a call on.

Don't stress what is going on here is that they are making sure your kids are eligible for Thai nationality. It is taken seriously and there are official ministry of interior guidelines which they are following. So just make sure they have the documents they want.

This is all normal. Don't worry. I have had bigger bureaucratic issues getting my Thai born daughter an Australian passport in Australia, even though she already had one and had a citizenship certificate. It is just the ritualistic pain of the public servants.

[Maestro]

The OP, thainewvisa, asked the same question in the forum Ask the Lawyer and the answer he received there confirms what he was advised in this topic:

Due to that the children are Thai, meaning that one parent is Thai, can't you just put their name in the Thai parent's house? This is the only way the children can apply for a new passport...

With "the Thai parent's house" the lawyer means the house registration book in which the children's Thai parent, ie their mother, is registered. The lawyer's answer goes on to give details about the procedure of getting the children entered in the house registration book.

[espinoza]

note also you will need mom an dad to travel to the passport office to sign for new Thai passports

How did they get their first Thai passports?

Cant leave on us passports unless they came in on them

Sometimes they can.

[samran]

note also you will need mom an dad to travel to the passport office to sign for new Thai passports

How did they get their first Thai passports?

Cant leave on us passports unless they came in on them

Sometimes they can.

Clearly not in the case of the OP

[NanLaew]

Chiang Mai immigration sucks again! Wanting notarised wedding certificates when it's a kids expired passport issue. The key is still getting the kids names in a tibian bahn (blue book). Has the OP confirmed if his wife is still registered in a blue book anywhere in Thailand?

Regarding the Amphurs inabiity to recognise the Thai birth certificates issued overseas; this was suggested earlier.

Our daughter was born in Germany, was issued a Thai birth Certificate (her mother is Thai) and passport by the Embassy in Berlin and when we got to Thailand her birth certificate was re-registered by an Amphur here and it was stamped with a personal ID. The whole procedure lasted about 2 hours. Once this is done your children can be registered in the house book...

Have you asked if Amphur if they will do this? Then you will have the kids in a blue house book and do a straightforward passport renewal. Seems like a 'silver bullet' solution but unfortunately, all Amphurs and all Immigration officers walk to the beat of their own drum.

Good luck on this quest.

[claffey]

Any update from OP? This is an interesting thread for parentsof dual national kids....THANKS...

[thainewvisa]

OP here, yes, wife's name on blue book since the beginning of her life, we are so beat. Still couldn't get the kids into the house book. Tomorrow, they said we should wait for a call, they might be able to add one name but not the other, citing birth certificate problem, the father's middle name was missing on her Thai birth certificate. They told us to fly back to New York (where our daughter was born), to get it fixed at the Royal Thai consulate in NYC.

Seriously, is there a way out of this? How's the land border these days?

Went to American consulate today in Chiangmai, the most helpful ever. We could get an affidavit for our marriage out with their stamp. Now, the marriage certificate and the affidavit went to the MFA in BKK.

All we ever want is just to get out of the country, and we haven't even made any progress. No interest in Thai nationalities for the kids whatsoever. The officer kept treating us like dirt, pretty much like we are illegals seeking Thai nationalities for benefit. Benefits???!!

Land border crossing, anyone? Advice? Kids' US passports are still valid.

[samran]

Not that it helps you, but there are tens of thousands of hill tribe people in your neck of the woods that would give their right arm to be registered. Hence their conservative approach.

Still, it sounds like you are dealing with an arse coverer, who won't think outside the box and the fathers middle name is just another discrepancy that they can't handle.

Still the idiot who you are dealing with should know that once a Thai birth certificate is issued they can't be changed or amended. So there is nothing that the consulate can do. Furthermore why does it matter terribly much about the fathers middle name. Thai citizenship is derived from the mother. Tell them that.

They are probably looking for someone higher up to give them cover which makes it okay to register your kids. One option is for them to speak to the department of consular affairs in Bangkok. There is a section there which liaises with Thai embassies and consulates overseas when there are back and forth issues with Thai documentation needed to be issued overseas.

I'm on the road at the moment so it is had for me to search for their contact details but they have been mentioned quite a few times here in Thai visa. Perhaps call them and explain the situation. My guess is they'll be more pragmatic as they would see this enough. Get their call on it and then get the official you are dealing with to call them. Worse come to worse, ask them how a passport might be issued for your child if they can't be registered, but ask them first what to do about the middle name issue to make the official you are dealing with happy.

I deal with th Thai government a lot. I can guarantee that the official you are currently dealing with just needs someone else to tell them it is okay.

Sorry you are having these ongoing issues.

[samran]

If on the off chance you get one registered and not another and they aren't offering a solution, I'd just move house. If you have friends or relatives who live in another district move your wife and child to their house registry and then try and register the remaining child there. Hopefully the discrepancy between birth certificates won't be noticed and you'll get someone who is a it more willing to help out.

[Mario2008]

OP here, yes, wife's name on blue book since the beginning of her life, we are so beat. Still couldn't get the kids into the house book. Tomorrow, they said we should wait for a call, they might be able to add one name but not the other, citing birth certificate problem, the father's middle name was missing on her Thai birth certificate. They told us to fly back to New York (where our daughter was born), to get it fixed at the Royal Thai consulate in NYC.

Seriously, is there a way out of this? How's the land border these days?

Went to American consulate today in Chiangmai, the most helpful ever. We could get an affidavit for our marriage out with their stamp. Now, the marriage certificate and the affidavit went to the MFA in BKK.

All we ever want is just to get out of the country, and we haven't even made any progress. No interest in Thai nationalities for the kids whatsoever. The officer kept treating us like dirt, pretty much like we are illegals seeking Thai nationalities for benefit. Benefits???!!

Land border crossing, anyone? Advice? Kids' US passports are still valid.

Not sure why you send the documents to BKK, there is a MFA office in Chiang Mai you could have uesed for legalisation.

If there are problems with the birth certificate, have the amphur put it in writing and contact the Thai Consular Department. If there really are any problems they can sort things out for you with the Thai consulate in NYC. No need to go there yourself.

www.consular.go.th

[thainewvisa]

Just want to give an update, OP here. We successfully registered one child in the house book, and we could renew his passport. That should come in a few days. For our younger one, they refused to enter her name on the house book, citing missing middle name of the father. We were told to go fix her birth certificate in New York city. Her Thai passport cannot be renewed.

We asked the passport office in BKK about this issue, after 2 hrs, they told us that they could do nothing for us, even though our younger child got 2 Thai passports prior. Was sent around from one office to another, one managed to say that I should go and bribe the immigration to let us leave. It's not their job to issue the passport when a child cannot be registered in the house book.

So, a person isn't Thai, when they aren't registered in a house book, even though they got the Thai birth certificate as proof and even when they were given Thai passports before. I gather this much.

Thai nationality is quite elusive. A Thai person can only be Thai when they are tied to the house book. Without the house book, they got no right. Essentially, becoming stateless when you don't have a house, and can't even claim to even have Thai nationality to get the passport issued.

[samran]

Have the consulate in New York offered any guidance?

[Mario2008]

Contact the consular department in BKK and see what they can do for you. They can handle things with the NYC consulate if need be.

www.consular.go.th

[TerryLH]

How about taking the child with the problem passport to Laos and getting them a tourist visa in their US passport.

Re-enter on the US passport and then fly home on that.

Yes, it is generally thought that you can't change passports at a land border, but there have also been reports that it can be arranged if one of the passports is a Thai pp.

It might require the Lao officials to stamp both the US passport and the border pass, but could be done if the situation is explained.

The Lao officials might even allow an entry on the US passport, as well. If there is hesitation, ask if you can enter with both the US pp and a Thai border pass.

With all the other problems it might be something to think about.

Other than that, trying to get the child entered in a house registration somewhere else has promise.

I'd guess that because of the situation in the country now, some officials are fearful of getting that call to have lunch at the Army Club.

[ubonjoe]

How would they do that with an expired passport.

[ubonjoe]

Just want to give an update, OP here. We successfully registered one child in the house book, and we could renew his passport. That should come in a few days. For our younger one, they refused to enter her name on the house book, citing missing middle name of the father. We were told to go fix her birth certificate in New York city. Her Thai passport cannot be renewed.

We asked the passport office in BKK about this issue, after 2 hrs, they told us that they could do nothing for us, even though our younger child got 2 Thai passports prior. Was sent around from one office to another, one managed to say that I should go and bribe the immigration to let us leave. It's not their job to issue the passport when a child cannot be registered in the house book.

So, a person isn't Thai, when they aren't registered in a house book, even though they got the Thai birth certificate as proof and even when they were given Thai passports before. I gather this much.

Thai nationality is quite elusive. A Thai person can only be Thai when they are tied to the house book. Without the house book, they got no right. Essentially, becoming stateless when you don't have a house, and can't even claim to even have Thai nationality to get the passport issued.

This is just an Amphoe making problems for no reason. Thai's don't normally have middle names so why are they making a big deal of it?

Do you know anybody that has a house book for another Amphoe that would allow your child to be put on it.