CM Fuzz - Let Us Prey

[JingerBen]

Thank you, Ulysses. Actually, I've taught university-level classes on both Thoreau and Gandhi.

'Civil Disobedience' was his take on the thinking of Emerson put down on paper, and related to the slavery issue, a major political debate at the time. However ever since, people have been 'quoting' it for everything from illegal parking to topless dancing...

So that explains it... you're an academic!

My first guess would have been that you were a lawyer. "Slippery as an eel" was an uncharitable evaluation that I couldn't repress.

We have your take on Thoreau vis a vis the current scene, could you continue on with Orwell, Gandhi, Kafka, and Huxley?

To turn them all into colourless nonentities of the middling sort so that they fit right in with the CM expat community would be a scholarly achievement; and timely as well, on the eve of Independence Day.

[FolkGuitar]

You're right. I apologize to you. Please forgive me.

The point; There are laws. The laws are in place to protect the safety and welfare of the society as a whole, rather than catering to individual choice.

If someone chooses to willfully break those laws, they are selfishly placing their own personal desires ahead of the safety and welfare of others. Period.

There is no justification for this sort of behavior, regardless of the motives of the individual. It's called 'breaking the law,' and the punishments for it are in place. If a person feels that these laws are unjust, they have the right to bring the issue to the courts and let the courts decide. They do NOT have the right to take the law into their own hands. Doing that is also breaking the law, compounding the problem.

This isn't some cloudy issue. The law exists. It's really pretty simple.

What you need is some remedial education.

Orwell; Gandhi; Thoreau, and Kafka would do for starters.

I know FolkGuitar and would guess that he has read all of them. He has much more than a "remedial" education.

If his posts are anything to go by, the time is ripe for a rereading... and the next time you see him, ask him to include Aldous Huxley. I reread Brave New World recently, and it's incredible how much of it has, or is, coming to pass.

Incidentally, we could all do with a little remedial education. The point is, some places are better to receive it in than others. For instance, a great little used bookshop on Chang Moi Khao would be preferable to Guantanamo Bay.

In a previous post you stated;

"These mealy-mouthed goody two-shoes' with their supine acceptance of state-extortion have made their own countries unliveable with their petty rules, regulations, permits, and licences for everything.

Where I grew up in Westchester County, north of New York City, you now can't do even minor repairs to your own home without a village permit, and the work has to be done by a licenced contractor at grossly inflated prices."

... so you left.

"Their own countries?" by which you meant 'your own country.' And you did nothing what so ever, even in your own country, to rectify the problem.

You moved out of the society in whose laws you found intolorable. You didn't violate those laws in protest. You didn't start a rebellion. You ran away. Frankly, that was smart. Violating petty laws in protest makes little sense. It often endangers others and doesn't accomplish anything more than making you upset when you get dinged for it by the courts. It certainly doesn't change anything. But you DID have other means at your command to try to change the laws but you never bothered to do so. You just left the problems for others to deal with.

You went on to say; "Is that what we want Chiang Mai to become?" You didn't try to correct the problem in your own country, why would we assume you will step up and do so here?

The fact is, WE don't get to decide. The Thais do. And only the Thais.

Our only choices are to abide by their laws, break their laws and run the risk of penalty, or leave.

You suggest a little remedial education. I agree... but in Civics 101.

Philosophy is fine for discussion, but it doesn't keep families together with food on the table.

[FolkGuitar]

Thank you, Ulysses. Actually, I've taught university-level classes on both Thoreau and Gandhi.

'Civil Disobedience' was his take on the thinking of Emerson put down on paper, and related to the slavery issue, a major political debate at the time. However ever since, people have been 'quoting' it for everything from illegal parking to topless dancing...

So that explains it... you're an academic!

My first guess would have been that you were a lawyer. "Slippery as an eel" was an uncharitable evaluation that I couldn't repress.

We have your take on Thoreau vis a vis the current scene, could you continue on with Orwell, Gandhi, Kafka, and Huxley?

To turn them all into colourless nonentities of the middling sort so that they fit right in with the CM expat community would be a scholarly achievement; and timely as well, on the eve of Independence Day.

First you suggest more education, then you do a 180 degree flip-flop and try to use eduation as a pejorative...

If you pick one platform and stick with it, you will gain a bit more credibility. As it is, you can't seem to make up your mind.

While it's delightful to sit around with friends and compare the world to sci-fi books, worrying that Big Brother is watching you in your living rooms, the fact is that word IS changing without consulting you for your input. It's going to continue to change without consulting you for your input. It doesn't care what you or I want. It only cares what 'society as a whole' wants. That's why most modern countries use a voting system.

You didn't care for the changes in your native country (where you actually could have made a difference with your input through legal channels,) and left to move to a different society. By doing so, you tacitly agreed to abid by the rules and regulations of this society. (I'm sure that as you are an educated individual, you made yourself aware of the rules and regulations of THIS society before you came, right?) Now you choose to complain about these rules and regulations? Another 180-degree flip-flop?

I understand that in the Sudan, the only law you need is a Kalashnikov. Perhaps they might like to debate Huxley and Orwell there...

Edited June 29, 2014 by FolkGuitar

[femi fan]

Folkguitar… you are rigidly sticking to your theoretical understanding of life and projecting it onto the characters of posters on this thread, whom you know nothing about. You are second-guessing what they do in their life, and what their beliefs are in life. You keep saying that the law must be obeyed for the good of all.

I am one person, society is all the other people. You are part of that society. You are one person, and i am part of the society that you see external to yourself. You are being selfish by denying me, part of the society you talk about, my free will to ignore laws and say i want to ignore them on this forum, when the laws i choose to ignore cause no harm to a single other person in that society.

Oh, but you might claim, i am allowed to flout the laws, but i must face up to this in a court of law. This is so theoretical when ti comes to the premise of this thread and to the nation we currently reside in. If i break a law, i can easily avoid the courts by paying the police some tea money. Problem over, and i still get to flout the silly law without having to face a court. Your theory is like a sieve.

Just to correct one of your assumptions which you have apparently converted into fact on this forum, i do my very best to know the laws of wherever i live. I make every effort to know them for very good reason. The two i got undone for were for very valid reasons, but don't let that stop you projecting your mistaken assumptions onto me, and posing them as fact.

[Gonzo the Face]

Awards, Certificates, Diplomas show one thing.

But not necessarily an education.....

They certainly do not replace brain power, heartfelt feelings or even basic common sense

I'll leave it to each of you to decide how that relates to this subject.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Gonzo the Face

[FolkGuitar]

You may not like the laws, but by living here you tacitly agreed to abide by them when you applied for your visa. In effect, you gave your word that you would live under Thai rules. Had you refused to do so, you would not have been granted a visa to live here.

Now you are breaking not only Thai laws, but your word.

The validity of these laws is completely irrelevant. They exist, and you agreed to abide by them.

Now you choose to break them because you don't like them and feel it's your 'right' to ignore them.

Sorry, but this speaks for itself.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

You may not like the laws, but by living here you tacitly agreed to abide by them when you applied for your visa. In effect, you gave your word that you would live under Thai rules. Had you refused to do so, you would not have been granted a visa to live here.

Now you are breaking not only Thai laws, but your word.

It's been 15+ years since I last applied for a visa (during which time Thailand shredded and rewrote its entire constitution three times) so I don't really recall what exactly I'm agreeing to on a non-immigrant visa application. Anyone has a recent form? From memory it didn't go much beyond your name, date of birth, nationality and when you arrive.

(Disclaimer for the partially dyslexic: No, this does not mean I therefore condone breaking laws, it just means I'd like a second look at the 'breaking your word' argument.)

Edited June 29, 2014 by WinnieTheKhwai

[JingerBen]

While it's delightful to sit around with friends and compare the world to sci-fi books, worrying that Big Brother is watching you in your living rooms,

There you go again, professor...

The novels of Huxley, Orwell, and Kafka aren't "sci-fi" in the usually accepted sense of the term.

They are dark prophecies based on the state of society at the time they were written; and what kind of future we could expect if state power and control went unchallenged.

Much of what they wrote has already turned out to be uncannily prescient.

[mamborobert]

I love these posts. Its a cheap personal validation of how utterly normal i remain after years in CM.

On what planet would anyone link Gandhi's campaign of civil disobedience for a free and independent India with car clamping for wrongful parking in CM?

And then there are reminders to read Kafka and how this might relate.......the only thing Kafkaesque is the suggestion itself.

Can we at least try and keep posts in the realms of reality.......or is Gandhi, Kafkha et al really that trivial.

[JingerBen]

You may not like the laws, but by living here you tacitly agreed to abide by them when you applied for your visa. In effect, you gave your word that you would live under Thai rules. Had you refused to do so, you would not have been granted a visa to live here.

Now you are breaking not only Thai laws, but your word.

The validity of these laws is completely irrelevant. They exist, and you agreed to abide by them.

Now you choose to break them because you don't like them and feel it's your 'right' to ignore them.

Sorry, but this speaks for itself.

This topic is about state operatives bending and breaking their own laws; not about individual posters and whether or not they are in violation of said laws.

As much as the wannabe lawyer in you would like to prove that and get a "lock-up".

[JingerBen]

I love these posts. Its a cheap personal validation of how utterly normal i remain after years in CM.

On what planet would anyone link Gandhi's campaign of civil disobedience for a free and independent India with car clamping for wrongful parking in CM?

And then there are reminders to read Kafka and how this might relate.......the only thing Kafkaesque is the suggestion itself.

Can we at least try and keep posts in the realms of reality.......or is Gandhi, Kafkha et al really that trivial.

You've failed the course!

Take off that silly crown and go sit in the corner wearing the dunce-cap.

[mamborobert]

I love these posts. Its a cheap personal validation of how utterly normal i remain after years in CM.

On what planet would anyone link Gandhi's campaign of civil disobedience for a free and independent India with car clamping for wrongful parking in CM?

And then there are reminders to read Kafka and how this might relate.......the only thing Kafkaesque is the suggestion itself.

Can we at least try and keep posts in the realms of reality.......or is Gandhi, Kafkha et al really that trivial.

You've failed the course!

Take off that silly crown and go sit in the corner wearing the dunce-cap.

Another joy of Thaivisa.

Sometimes there are wits...and at times people not quite there, halfwits.

As my good school Priest would say " titter not at the mentally afflicted young children, feel pity and move on".

You have my pity ,

[FolkGuitar]

You may not like the laws, but by living here you tacitly agreed to abide by them when you applied for your visa. In effect, you gave your word that you would live under Thai rules. Had you refused to do so, you would not have been granted a visa to live here.

Now you are breaking not only Thai laws, but your word.

It's been 15+ years since I last applied for a visa (during which time Thailand shredded and rewrote its entire constitution three times) so I don't really recall what exactly I'm agreeing to on a non-immigrant visa application. Anyone has a recent form? From memory it didn't go much beyond your name, date of birth, nationality and when you arrive.

(Disclaimer for the partially dyslexic: No, this does not mean I therefore condone breaking laws, it just means I'd like a second look at the 'breaking your word' argument.)

Obviously there is no mention of it on the forms. But anyone requesting permission to live or function within a closed society is giving tacit consent to abide by the rules of that society, and be subject to its decisions. We can't say "Hey! I'm a Citizen of XYZ and therefor you can't arrest me for breaking your laws." We are, by signing our names and entering their society, giving our word to play by their rules. That we don't generally think of it in these terms doesn't mean they don't apply.

It doesn't make much difference if the 'society' is large or small. A society such as a large country, or a society such as a small social club, the concept is the same. The society decides upon the rules. Members agree to follow those rules or legally change them. Break the rules enough times and the society levies penalties.

Edited June 29, 2014 by FolkGuitar

[MisterTee]

This topic started with my mistaken notion that there were fewer police checkpoints in Chiang Mai following the imposition of martial law.

Numerous posts disabused me of that idea very quickly.

My next inquiry was about other dubious police activities, and whether or not the Thai Army had curtailed them, and if so, to what extent?

Total silence on that one. Either the members don't know, or they're not telling.

The subsequent replies, although not without interest, became a debate about laws and how they can be used, and abused, to affect the everyday life of Chiang Mai people.

The civil-libertarians will never change their views; nor will the control-freaks who think that social stability depends on strict conformity, and zero-tolerance of anything they see as aberrant behaviour.

But to return to the original question: Is the Thai Army having any positive effect on preventing extortion by public officials?

Anybody know?

[Mapguy]

Corruption is one of the junta's targets, but how you would really gauge how effective an anti-corruption campaign is would be very difficult to measure. Anecdotal information around Chiang Mai about bribing the traffic police probably wouldn't be very good or useful. The question is problematic. On a national scale, at least stay tuned to Transparency International !

Otherwise, it would be nice if some of the soldiers could help more with traffic control. They all look terribly bored when they aren't looking at SMSs on their mobile phones.

[mamborobert]

On a purely micro level many of us contribute and facilitate local BIB corruption after we have broken the law (helmet, license etc). How many posters would rather go to the station rather than pay the on the spot "fine". How many, if the officer did not make a suggestion would make the suggestion to the officer themselves. For me, guilty on all counts M'lud. Having said that now i wear a helmet and carry my license and have not had any problems for years. If you don't want to comply with the laws....are you fighting the man if you pay on the spot or at the station....perhaps all those with true conviction are convicted and currently unable to post.

Edited June 29, 2014 by mamborobert

[FolkGuitar]

But to return to the original question: Is the Thai Army having any positive effect on preventing extortion by public officials?

Anybody know?

There is a nationaly published index of corruption. If the figures are to be believed, things are getting better. How something like this can be realistically tabulated is another story. Between the covert nature of corruption, and the small interval of time since the change in government, it doesn't seem likely that the figures have any significant value.

[northernjohn]

You may not like the laws, but by living here you tacitly agreed to abide by them when you applied for your visa. In effect, you gave your word that you would live under Thai rules. Had you refused to do so, you would not have been granted a visa to live here.

Now you are breaking not only Thai laws, but your word.

It's been 15+ years since I last applied for a visa (during which time Thailand shredded and rewrote its entire constitution three times) so I don't really recall what exactly I'm agreeing to on a non-immigrant visa application. Anyone has a recent form? From memory it didn't go much beyond your name, date of birth, nationality and when you arrive.

(Disclaimer for the partially dyslexic: No, this does not mean I therefore condone breaking laws, it just means I'd like a second look at the 'breaking your word' argument.)

Obviously there is no mention of it on the forms. But anyone requesting permission to live or function within a closed society is giving tacit consent to abide by the rules of that society, and be subject to its decisions. We can't say "Hey! I'm a Citizen of XYZ and therefor you can't arrest me for breaking your laws." We are, by signing our names and entering their society, giving our word to play by their rules. That we don't generally think of it in these terms doesn't mean they don't apply.

It doesn't make much difference if the 'society' is large or small. A society such as a large country, or a society such as a small social club, the concept is the same. The society decides upon the rules. Members agree to follow those rules or legally change them. Break the rules enough times and the society levies penalties.

Was just wondering how he would make out saying I never agreed to live by your rules because they are silly.

Winnie I had to have a medical which was a silly one. The doctor and I both laughed also a police report on me. It only covered the files of the local department and a Notarized paper that I was who I said I was.

[femi fan]

Awards, Certificates, Diplomas show one thing.

But not necessarily an education.....

They certainly do not replace brain power, heartfelt feelings or even basic common sense

I'll leave it to each of you to decide how that relates to this subject.

Well, i've just returned home from a nice walk, and was thinking much the same thing as you are posting here. I even like your choice of words 'heartfelt feelings'. I was thinking i'll have to concede debating defeat here because i've been up against 'the law' with on feelings or emotional quotient apparently allowed into the equation. One cannot win against the logic of a robot: 'it's the law, it's the law, it's the law'.

You will know how i decided your words fitted the subject!

[femi fan]

You may not like the laws, but by living here you tacitly agreed to abide by them when you applied for your visa. In effect, you gave your word that you would live under Thai rules. Had you refused to do so, you would not have been granted a visa to live here.

Now you are breaking not only Thai laws, but your word.

The validity of these laws is completely irrelevant. They exist, and you agreed to abide by them.

Now you choose to break them because you don't like them and feel it's your 'right' to ignore them.

Sorry, but this speaks for itself.

FG, yhou speak for yourself, and it's clear that you will not budge. It's the law.

I did not give my word at all about how i would live in thailand. You are wrong. The only laws i've broken here in thailand have been accidentally done, not knowing the law.

I did not agree to abide by the laws here. You are wrong.

It's my right to do anything. I will pay any consequences that result from my actions. I am a responsible adult and choose to live the way i want to live in my tiny portion of life on this planet. You live by the law, fine, but stop trying to tell me i should live by the law. All you can say is live by the law, my relationship with the laws is irrelevant, they are the law. You are, simply, wrong.

You are not allowing for any freedom of choice, because society has declared the laws already, and i must not break them. Well, i can tell you something: 'society' is just a word until you define it. Society is a word, and it cannot make laws, it cannot do anything. It is benign. So tell me instead who exactly is making these laws.

[northernjohn]

Corruption is one of the junta's targets, but how you would really gauge how effective an anti-corruption campaign is would be very difficult to measure. Anecdotal information around Chiang Mai about bribing the traffic police probably wouldn't be very good or useful. The question is problematic. On a national scale, at least stay tuned to Transparency International !

Otherwise, it would be nice if some of the soldiers could help more with traffic control. They all look terribly bored when they aren't looking at SMSs on their mobile phones.

You have evidence showing corruption is one of their aims. I am assuming you mean to commit it not to stop it.

Please show source.

As For Transparency International forget it. They will just give you the year figure. Not the figure from when the Coup started. It will also include the PTP. Who in 2013 increased it by 2% and dropped Thailand from the 88th to the 102 best country in other words 13 countries became more honest than them.

For those of you who think Thailand is the most corrupt country in the world there are still about 75 more corrupt.

I have not been stopped by the police or the army here since the coup and only once before for no seat belt. 200 baht tea money covered that one. So I couldn't say. On the national level I believe we will see a big decrease in corruption. It will always be with us but in my opinion judging on what I have seen so far it will be greatly reduced.

Rest assured there are those on Thai Visa who will make one crime seem like the whole administration is corrupt twice as bas as the Shinawatra one.

It is far to short a time to give a positive answer on that question but I believe Thailand is heading for the Golden land.

Maybe I am overly optimistic. But when you stop and consider all the money the previous government spent trying to white wash one mans crimes and cutting of the budget assigned to root out corruption while it grows 2% it sure looks good for Thailand. Lot's more to do.

[FolkGuitar]

FG, yhou speak for yourself, and it's clear that you will not budge. It's the law.

I did not give my word at all about how i would live in thailand. You are wrong. The only laws i've broken here in thailand have been accidentally done, not knowing the law.

I did not agree to abide by the laws here. You are wrong.

It's my right to do anything. I will pay any consequences that result from my actions. I am a responsible adult and choose to live the way i want to live in my tiny portion of life on this planet. You live by the law, fine, but stop trying to tell me i should live by the law. All you can say is live by the law, my relationship with the laws is irrelevant, they are the law. You are, simply, wrong.

You are not allowing for any freedom of choice, because society has declared the laws already, and i must not break them. Well, i can tell you something: 'society' is just a word until you define it. Society is a word, and it cannot make laws, it cannot do anything. It is benign. So tell me instead who exactly is making these laws.

I've never told you that you should live by the law. In fact, four different times I've told you that you always have three choices;

Follow the law and act like a responsible citizen

Change the law legally, which is your right.

Break the law and suffer the consequences.

If you are comfortable living in disregard of society, that's entirely your choice. But do understand that when you complain that you had to pay some sort of penalty for breaking the law, the rest of society will not join with you in sympathy.

For some reason you think that not knowing the law is some sort of validation for breaking it. I've got news for you... in every single modern society, ignorance of the law is NOT a valid excuse in court. You will lose if you try that defense.

I sincerely hope that your need to rebel doesn't cause you harm, or worse, harm to others. You may wish to take a look at Erikson's stages of psychosocial development, especially his fifth stage; "Identity vs. Role Confusion." It's pretty obvious that you are stuck there, and could use some help getting past it. Most get beyond it by age 20. Some never do.

I'll back out of this thread now as it's clear that you and I have very different ideas about what constitutes the responsibilities of an adult living within a society. I wish you well.

[femi fan]

Rebel or blindly follow laws because they're laws? I"m happy with my pick.

But jesus man, stop projecting your belief system and assumptions onto me. I'm just a pseudonym here, working under the limitations that written communication pose its communicators, and you're creating a character profile out of me. And it's unlawfully incorrect.

[JingerBen]

Rebel or blindly follow laws because they're laws? I"m happy with my pick.

But jesus man, stop projecting your belief system and assumptions onto me. I'm just a pseudonym here, working under the limitations that written communication pose its communicators, and you're creating a character profile out of me. And it's unlawfully incorrect.

You've survived a tsunami of verbal diarrhoea... and you're still standing.

Congratulations!

[FolkGuitar]

Rebel or blindly follow laws because they're laws? I"m happy with my pick.

But jesus man, stop projecting your belief system and assumptions onto me. I'm just a pseudonym here, working under the limitations that written communication pose its communicators, and you're creating a character profile out of me. And it's unlawfully incorrect.

Unlawful? Now you want to claim protection under these same code of laws that you've been choosing to ignore?

No... I won't waste any more time trying to explain to you what living within society entails.

You've been measured and found wanting.

[JingerBen]

Rebel or blindly follow laws because they're laws? I"m happy with my pick.

But jesus man, stop projecting your belief system and assumptions onto me. I'm just a pseudonym here, working under the limitations that written communication pose its communicators, and you're creating a character profile out of me. And it's unlawfully incorrect.

Unlawful? Now you want to claim protection under these same code of laws that you've been choosing to ignore?

No... I won't waste any more time trying to explain to you what living within society entails.

You've been measured and found wanting.

Who did the measuring, and who found her wanting?

She made you look like a self-righteous prig.

[naboo]

Folk Guitar is turning into Beetlejuice. This is dreadful.

[Chiengmaijoe]

I love these posts. Its a cheap personal validation of how utterly normal i remain after years in CM.

On what planet would anyone link Gandhi's campaign of civil disobedience for a free and independent India with car clamping for wrongful parking in CM?

And then there are reminders to read Kafka and how this might relate.......the only thing Kafkaesque is the suggestion itself.

Can we at least try and keep posts in the realms of reality.......or is Gandhi, Kafkha et al really that trivial.

I'm not sure what Kafka has do do with all of this, but if you ask me, he was never the same after he left AC Milan, and never lived up to his huge price tag.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Chiengmaijoe

[mikey88]

JohnLocke.....are you saying you paid 5000 baht corruption money because you did not have a licence......that's just sustaining and promoting the problem of corruption!

The person that does that IS the problem!......

[JingerBen]

I'm not sure what Kafka has do do with all of this, but if you ask me, he was never the same after he left AC Milan, and never lived up to his huge price tag.

If you're not sure what Kafka has to do with all of this, then read him carefully and judge for yourself.

Disregard his sad, later years when he became a mindless shadow of his former self... kicking around a little ball and making millions.