Get off your high horse, America, we do not need a ride: Thai opinion

[nojoma]

attention k-mart shoppers.....

[arjunadawn]

Why do you all defend your own countries, they don't care about you. Patriotism is for fools.

Interesting observation. I'm not sure, though, that there is anything unhealthy about patriotism. I think ethnocentrism to the point of blindness, militant nationalism, etc., is foolish. However, patriotism is mostly a healthy extended community "belonging." Unquestionably, patriotism=belonging- is the glue that must be diluted by those who espouse their New World Order and other regional Super States. There's actually considerable history of evaluating that it is indeed patriotism that acts as the cohesion for national identify. Why could there be something inherently wrong or foolish about this, unless you find you do support a Global and/or Regional Super State; then it would seem foolish to you.

First identified in 1962, Freedom from War study: Patriotism would have to be diluted. Thus the malignant push in America to self loathe and ethical relativity. I am American and being patriotic in no way blinds me to the terrible things my nation has become- intentionally. I am patriotic and critical of such that is done in "our name." Patriotism is not the problem. Social engineering is the problem.

[lvr181]

EVERYONE should get off their "high horse". There is no perfect country or perfect form of Government. Every "way" has its warts and flowers and "abusing" others accomplishes NOTHING! Criticism with out viable alternatives does not advance humanity. Tend to your own problems and let others tend to theirs. Offer humane assistance where humane assistance is asked for.

Maybe this forum has allowed many hotheads to vent their feelings but it has not accomplished anything apart from name calling. Wow, success - NOT. Get a life folks, you cannot change history but try and make the future a bit brighter for all.

BTW, I am neither a U.S.citizen or a Thai citizen.

[Lowryder]

You'd be speaking Russian is the correct answer.

The ruskies couldn't even beat Finland.

[ericjt]

Then why ever morning at the American Embassy their are long lines of people who want to come to this country. Answer that. We must be doing something right.

The fact that people from other countries think (for now) that they might be able to make more money in the US does not equal an endorsement of the US government, taxes, Iraq/Afghanistan wars, the Patriot Act, or the erosion of civil liberties spelled out in the US Constitution. It only means that, for now, salaries for entry level workers are higher in the US than elsewhere.

On the flip side, people who have already accumulated some wealth, are turning in their US passports and citizenship in record numbers. It's true the numbers are only in the thousands, but in percentage terms, the numbers are double or triple previous years growing exponentially. (That means faster and faster.) Since US citizenship used to be the most prized citizenship in the world, what does the fact that thousands of people each year are now renouncing it mean? What is it a reflection of?

I'm not smart enough to know the answer. Only smart enough to ask the question.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

On the flip side, people who have already accumulated some wealth, are turning in their US passports and citizenship in record numbers. It's true the numbers are only in the thousands, but in percentage terms, the numbers are double or triple previous years growing exponentially. (That means faster and faster.) Since US citizenship used to be the most prized citizenship in the world, what does the fact that thousands of people each year are now renouncing it mean? What is it a reflection of?

I'm not smart enough to know the answer. Only smart enough to ask the question.

I am smart enough to know the answer,

If you were born a US citizen, and manage to hand in your US passport and citizenship (usually to avoid tax).

Later if you change your mind, you can just ask for it back, and they return it.

So ZERO risk (except they might ask for the tax you avoided).

That's the rules for most countries in the world (except China).

Edited June 26, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[EBlair48]

What is the US BIGGEST contribution to Thailand?? Probably Pattaya would be among them - they turned a tiny fishing village into the scum that is Walking street in 6 months and filled the bars with issan bar ladies - thanks for supporting us USA!! next time keep walking!!

BS

I use to vacation in Pattaya for several years in the late 60's. The foreigners were mostly a nice community of family oriented US military. The real change began after US military was out of the region ,and shopping out impoverished citizens ( and kids ) to serve tourists sexually became the industry it still is

Il remember the cockroaches, still the biggest I've ever seen

[NeverSure]

Poor intellect. Let's see. Just what type of computer did you post that from? IBM clone PC? Mac? And what operating system are you using? Microsoft, Apple, Unix, Linux/Andoid? Did you post it on the internet via TCP/IP? Wireless, wired?

Do you get any information for the dumb people at Google?

Does your country use any nuclear power plants? Does it have stealth aircraft technology?

America by far leads the world in technology so it can't be all that lacking in "intellect."

Geez.

Reading this reminds me how thankful I am not to live in America anymore. I used to endure hearing this "Americans invented everything" for hours until I would literally puke.

You didn't invent anything "NeverSure". You are not that interesting. You are not Edison or Bell. You are mediocre. Get over it. Americans are way too brainwashed by that "we invented everything" to know that no one gives a damn.

Nothing gives you the right to take credit for the work of others, be they Merucuns or anybody else. You remind me well why I can't stand that place. Hearing "Americans invented everything" makes me grab a barf bag. No one owes you dirt for inventing anything. Grow up. Stay home.

Well then, stop using a computer, the internet, the telephone or cell phone, or any other of the things provided for you by the Americans since they make you puke.

1/3 of the students in American technical schools are foreigners, trying hard to get in and learn something they could never figure out for themselves.

I never said I invented something. Someone said that Americans had low intellect, which is ridiculous of course.

I hope you're all in, living in a fascist military dictatorship where the people truly have no intellect and need someone else to invent something so they can use it or steal it.

[ericjt]

On the flip side, people who have already accumulated some wealth, are turning in their US passports and citizenship in record numbers. It's true the numbers are only in the thousands, but in percentage terms, the numbers are double or triple previous years growing exponentially. (That means faster and faster.) Since US citizenship used to be the most prized citizenship in the world, what does the fact that thousands of people each year are now renouncing it mean? What is it a reflection of?

I'm not smart enough to know the answer. Only smart enough to ask the question.

I am smart enough to know the answer,

If you were born a US citizen, and manage to hand in your US passport and citizenship (usually to avoid tax).

Later if you change your mind, you can just ask for it back, and they return it.

So ZERO risk (except they might ask for the tax you avoided).

That's the rules for most countries in the world (except China).

You raise an interesting and, I think, valid point. If most people turn in their US citizenship to avoid taxes, what is it about the US tax system that provokes them to do that? Perhaps that the US charges its citizens tax on any and all income, from any and all sources, and from anywhere it might have been sourced from, anywhere in the world? No other country does that. If you make money in a country, you have to pay tax to that country. If you make money outside a country, you don't. You only have to pay taxes, maybe, to the country in which you made the money. So if the US tax system is, perhaps, a bit over-reaching, that might be a good reason for some people who turn in their passports. But that's a separate question from whether they can get their citizenship back. That could change at any time, and I'm sure most people who turn in their citizenship know that. But they still do it. What does that say about the US govt, its policies and direction?

[Gonki]

Well then, stop using a computer, the internet, the telephone or cell phone, or any other of the things provided for you by the Americans since they make you puke.

I don't owe you dirt for anything, 'Merucan. You invented oxygen too. And hemoglobin.

BTW I'm a Merucan too and I just can't stand that place. That "we invent everything" bully's bs is one reason why.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Gonki

[rijb]

Well then, stop using a computer, the internet, the telephone or cell phone, or any other of the things provided for you by the Americans since they make you puke.

I don't owe you dirt for anything, 'Merucan. You invented oxygen too. And hemoglobin.

I can see why you had a hard time in the U.S. You're lucky they didn't shoot your miserable butt.

[Fat Haggis]

It looks like the American bashing/bashers from Michael Yon's Facebook have migrated here.

[Gonki]

You're lucky they didn't shoot your miserable butt.

Who's "they"? LOL

[ClutchClark]

What everyone appears to be missing is that its the American consumer that is speaking through the government.

It isn't so much that Americans are defending their Country, its that they are defending their own values surrounding their food "supply".

This is not a "uniquely" American thing, all humans want to know the history of the food items they are feeding their family.

Simple enough, eh?

American consumer & it's food supply?...ok that's maybe not a good argument since most of the crops in America are GMO..

Now Europe knows about food. They are slimmer too lol

Yeah...I should have put a caveat about Americans failure to heed the dangers of GMO ;-)

But this entire thread and all this hoopla the last few days is because the American consumer is concerned about the food products we receive from Thailand and our Gov't is a representative for our concerns.

I think your concern for GMO-tainted food products clearly supports my suggestion that "all humanity" are concerned with the history and safety of their food supply.

This thread has been off-topic from page one.

Cheers

[3NUMBAS]

mussolinis very words ,after spilling so much blood and huge amounts of cash over WW2 .let them bitch about yank sentiments

[mutha289]

The U.S. historically disapproves of any government that was not elected by popular consent, i.e. voted in by the populace. As a former U.S.A.F. officer one of things that was drilled into our military education was our support of the constitution and legally elected government. Rightly or wrongly the U.S. takes a dim view of any government that was not elected, regardless of how well intentioned it may seem to be or how much "unofficial" popular support it may seem to have.

[iphad]

What everyone appears to be missing is that its the American consumer that is speaking through the government.

It isn't so much that Americans are defending their Country, its that they are defending their own values surrounding their food "supply".

This is not a "uniquely" American thing, all humans want to know the history of the food items they are feeding their family.

Simple enough, eh?

American consumer & it's food supply?...ok that's maybe not a good argument since most of the crops in America are GMO..

Now Europe knows about food. They are slimmer too lol

Yeah...I should have put a caveat about Americans failure to heed the dangers of GMO ;-)

But this entire thread and all this hoopla the last few days is because the American consumer is concerned about the food products we receive from Thailand and our Gov't is a representative for our concerns.

I think your concern for GMO-tainted food products clearly supports my suggestion that "all humanity" are concerned with the history and safety of their food supply.

This thread has been off-topic from page one.

Cheers

yea I agree with you about food security & food safety but some of the argument is the US government doesn't care about the health of the american people when it's the corporations call the shots..everything from GMO , high frutose corn syrup, antibiotics in meat etc.

Also there's the argument that chocolate that is grown with child slave labor,coffee & other crops grown in similar conditions to Thailand's poor standards but that appears ok.

I just question the double standard ...not saying Thailand shouldn't improve..I'm hoping everywhere improves for food safety & it's workers....but the US does know better... yet it's companies like Monsanto & many agri-businesses' that rule over the health of the american people.

[iphad]

The U.S. historically disapproves of any government that was not elected by popular consent, i.e. voted in by the populace. As a former U.S.A.F. officer one of things that was drilled into our military education was our support of the constitution and legally elected government. Rightly or wrongly the U.S. takes a dim view of any government that was not elected, regardless of how well intentioned it may seem to be or how much "unofficial" popular support it may seem to have.

Sorry ..I believe you were taught that..but as history shows.... that is not the truth.

The US has removed democratically elected governments & installed through coup's... dictators,supported "death Squads" & the economically demise of many countries...especially in Central & South America..

If you really knew what happened in the Ukraine..another coup supported by US to install neo Nazis..but the western media blames Russia...& people believe it since it's on the news everyday...except the coup part.

So this is the point of the OP that US has no moral high ground as their actions don't match their words of freedom.

[gazzasore]

[sustento]

The U.S. historically disapproves of any government that was not elected by popular consent, i.e. voted in by the populace. As a former U.S.A.F. officer one of things that was drilled into our military education was our support of the constitution and legally elected government. Rightly or wrongly the U.S. takes a dim view of any government that was not elected, regardless of how well intentioned it may seem to be or how much "unofficial" popular support it may seem to have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

[muchogra]

No single nation in the globe is perfect - that's what we all agree on.

When certain nations, like Thailand , for example, does a certain thing that's not directly endangering the security of the USA and the West, why would the USA and the West insist on imposing their values on them? When they start doing such, arn't they not proclaiming themselves on higher moral ground?

I accept and am proud of the USA and the West for taking actions against fanatical states who may endanger mankind, but Thailand is certainly not one. Beside, the current military is trying to mend the ills to make the country a lawful place for citizens and residents where they may enjoy their rights which the enforcement agencies have failed to deliver. What's wrong with that, especially for a normal citizen or resident?

The so-call democracy is not everything, especially when it's fed wrongly to certain places, like Thailand. In Thailand, many expats here have already witnessed what it has had done in the name of democracy.

Edited June 26, 2014 by muchogra

[maxman71]

As a Yank who loves his country, but also realizes the nasty reality that the US is indeed on the wrong path, it is easy to blame Congress, BO and Bushwhacker, but the real culprits are we Americans ourselves. As a collective group, it is we who keep voting these assclowns into office, election after election. I have never before in my lifetime witnessed a more sorry, pathetic, dumbed-down, self-centered bunch of whiny cry-babies who expect Mommy Government to wipe their behinds and do their thinking for them as I have the last 6 years. And before that, it was the belief that we could go into just about any country we wanted and play with our smart bombs and cruise missiles.

So while Thailand certainly has its share of corruption and political problems, at least the common people on either side of the political divide have demonstrated they have the balls to go into the streets and put their blood where their mouths are. You will NEVER see this happen in the US, because that would mean they would miss the latest episodes of American Idol, Oprah and Keeping Up With the KarTrashians, and also miss their welfare checks and foodstamps.

[mutha289]

The U.S. historically disapproves of any government that was not elected by popular consent, i.e. voted in by the populace. As a former U.S.A.F. officer one of things that was drilled into our military education was our support of the constitution and legally elected government. Rightly or wrongly the U.S. takes a dim view of any government that was not elected, regardless of how well intentioned it may seem to be or how much "unofficial" popular support it may seem to have.

Sorry ..I believe you were taught that..but as history shows.... that is not the truth.

The US has removed democratically elected governments & installed through coup's... dictators,supported "death Squads" & the economically demise of many countries...especially in Central & South America..

If you really knew what happened in the Ukraine..another coup supported by US to install neo Nazis..but the western media blames Russia...& people believe it since it's on the news everyday...except the coup part.

So this is the point of the OP that US has no moral high ground as their actions don't match their words of freedom.

What I said is the U.S. military is taught to defend the "constitution", perhaps I should have said U.S. constitution. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the U.S. is a paragon of virtue, but for that matter very few countries can say that they have always done the right thing 100% of the time. I don't always agree with the decisions of our elected officials, however I do agree with the overall U.S. position on supporting legally elected governments. Now if that means that the U.S. is on it's "high horse" or as you say is on high moral ground, well then so be it. There is right and there is wrong and I think most of us know the difference. If we don't stand up for what is right then we deserve to be called out for it. In this case I believe the U.S. has made the right call, and despite what currently seems to be a well intentioned junta, I can see this going badly if it's allowed to have carte blanche rule. You only need to look next door to the recent history of Myanmar (Burma) to see what could happen.

[sanuk711]

Then why ever morning at the American Embassy their are long lines of people who want to come to this country. Answer that. We must be doing something right.

Why are you then in Thailand and not in America. Thai's must be doing something right.

You get an answer yet ?

You Get an answer yet,,,,,,,,,,,,???

[jcisco]

really...... what a back and forth...... see below

3. Causes of conflict

Examples:
1. ‘Conflicts involve a clash of ideas, interests and expectations.’
2. ‘Conflict is born of fear.’
3. ‘Conflict is born of ignorance and intolerance.’
4. ‘The prime instigator of conflict is fear.’
5. ‘Fear of what is different or unfamiliar lies at the root of conflict.’
6. ‘Major conflicts often arise from minor misunderstandings.’
7. ‘Conflict is often the result of miscommunication.’
8. ‘New environments create conflict.’
9. ‘Social hierarchies create conflict.’
10. ‘Conflict is often the result of differing beliefs.’
11. ‘Conflict emerges from intensely emotional situations.’
12. ‘Power imbalances will inevitably produce conflict.’
13. ‘Conflict is heightened when people are not permitted to speak.’
14. ‘When values of institutions are at odds with those of individuals, conflict arises.’
15. ‘Conflict can bring out either courage or cowardice in an individual.’
16. ‘The clash between reason and emotion lies behind many conflicts.’
17. ‘The victims of one conflict are often the perpetrators of another.’
18. ‘Conflict is more likely to occur when reality doesn’t meet our expectations.’

[I Like Thai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Sorry but this is typical Thai posturing - When faced with criticism, they in turn become critical of the person - or nation - criticizing them, and spin the whole story with a nationalistic twist of Thailand the (couragous and proud) victim standing up for itself against the foreigner the bully.

But the persistent underlying problems remain. They just can't hear them anymore because they are all to busy screaming nationalistic sentiments.

It would seem that Americans have the same problem when America is criticised

[ClutchClark]

What everyone appears to be missing is that its the American consumer that is speaking through the government.

It isn't so much that Americans are defending their Country, its that they are defending their own values surrounding their food "supply".

This is not a "uniquely" American thing, all humans want to know the history of the food items they are feeding their family.

Simple enough, eh?

American consumer & it's food supply?...ok that's maybe not a good argument since most of the crops in America are GMO..

Now Europe knows about food. They are slimmer too lol

Yeah...I should have put a caveat about Americans failure to heed the dangers of GMO ;-)

But this entire thread and all this hoopla the last few days is because the American consumer is concerned about the food products we receive from Thailand and our Gov't is a representative for our concerns.

I think your concern for GMO-tainted food products clearly supports my suggestion that "all humanity" are concerned with the history and safety of their food supply.

This thread has been off-topic from page one.

Cheers

yea I agree with you about food security & food safety but some of the argument is the US government doesn't care about the health of the american people when it's the corporations call the shots..everything from GMO , high frutose corn syrup, antibiotics in meat etc.

Also there's the argument that chocolate that is grown with child slave labor,coffee & other crops grown in similar conditions to Thailand's poor standards but that appears ok.

I just question the double standard ...not saying Thailand shouldn't improve..I'm hoping everywhere improves for food safety & it's workers....but the US does know better... yet it's companies like Monsanto & many agri-businesses' that rule over the health of the american people.

I don't disagree with anything you have said, believe me.

But the issue with slave-labor in the Thai fishing industry has nothing to do with Monsanto, it is the America consumer becoming aware of labor practices that the average consumer finds abhorrent.

Now if anyone can find a nefarious link that Monsanto wants to enter the fishmeal industry in competition eith Thai fishing fleets, then I stand down. (I sure wouldn't be surprised.)

[ratcatcher]

Mr. Pornpimol Kanchanalak...you are right on...in you assessment of US foreign policy and domestic problems...

It is not often the US gets a dose of it's own medicine...but you sir...have dished it out correctly...

The average American is dismayed by the lack of a coherent foreign policy...a dysfunctional government...an ever increasing eroding of personal freedoms...lawlessness at the highest levels...and the police state mentality that has filtered down to the local level of law enforcement...

Thank you for speaking the truth...

pk.jpg

Mr. Pornpimol Kanchanalak...you are right on...in you assessment of US foreign policy and domestic problems...

Insulting those in the melting pot is to insult one's own lineage and ancestry. And begs the question why their ancestors fled if the old country land they hailed from was the land of mink & honey, and so much better........

I presume your comment is directed at ggt and not me?

[iphad]

Clutchclark

actually I know very little of the Thai fishing fleets...my understanding is that Thai used to do it but now Thai know it's long hours,low pay & abuse..so that people from neighboring counties with no passport work papers etc are used with same promises of good pay etc..maybe if someone complained they are thrown overboard too...

.

But my understanding they are not slaves...treated like "sh*t" yes and maybe many months before they can get off the boat.

so continuing with my points is previous post the Ivory coast uses actual child slaves,adults too in the growing cocoa for chocolate & they are rated tier 2 by US...maybe Nestles,Cadbury,Hershey's, etc influence as Corporations have an influence.

Consumers buy lots of chocolate with no regard to slavery..maybe they not know..or they love chocolate too much.

So without condoning what is going on with workers in Thailand I wonder if the issue is more political...than any concern for the workers.

Of course if Thailand..& I believe the Military will investigate it..there will be a positive outcome...perfection...probably not.

Edited June 26, 2014 by iphad

[Morch]

Whenever I see an "article" written by Pornpimol Kanchanalak (aka Pauline), referring to the USA, good governance

or ethics, I know the daily quota of silliness is met (even without factoring in the headline).

Integrity is indeed in short supply if that the best The Nation can drag to write a special piece. For those wishing to know

about a possible grudge this lady and great political thinker might bear towards the USA, read here:

http://articles.latimes.com/1997-01-19/opinion/op-20110_1_hollywood-women

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-dc-circuit/1277609.html

http://edition.cnn.com/ASIANOW/asiaweek/97/0321/feat6.html

Short version for those who don't want to read through all that - dear Pauline was found involved in illegal campaign

donations case a while back. That whole corrupting the political system thing she bangs on about in her mindering

diatribe.

Best way to sum her latest "work":

Edited June 26, 2014 by Morch