90 Day Borderbounce: 'Denied' Exit in Ranong despite non-B

[Bluedan]

Correct me if I am wrong, a non I'm B is only valid for 3 months, after that it's extension of stay with a WP and in country 90 day reporting?

Given what the OP says, he would have been better off with a 60 day double entry tourist visa.

Either way immigration certainly seem to be scrutinising passports at present.

90 days yes, but the extension depends on whether meet that stated salary requirements (excludes teacher's) and whether the business has had audited account for a couple of years

If your salary is not up to snuff or business doesn't have the audited accounts they will not issue an extension with 90 day reporting, you have to visa run every 90 days on a multi entry B

But the above doesn't change the number of employee rules to be issued a WP in the first place

And yes they are scrutinising passports, mine was looked at for only the 2nd time in 14 years as regards my work status (WP/extension) not two weeks ago at swampy

What you are saying sounds correct. So I don't understand why they would ask me for my work permit and say that I cannot do the border run in future. If for example I did not have a work permit why would I not be permitted to depart and renter every 90 days during the validity of my 12 month visa?

Er based on your previous post what your doing is illegal by your own admission, yours has been obtained under false pretenses so I would be bleating on too much to immigration

Where did you get the impression I was bleating to immigration?

[Soutpeel]

Correct me if I am wrong, a non I'm B is only valid for 3 months, after that it's extension of stay with a WP and in country 90 day reporting?

Given what the OP says, he would have been better off with a 60 day double entry tourist visa.

Either way immigration certainly seem to be scrutinising passports at present.

90 days yes, but the extension depends on whether meet that stated salary requirements (excludes teacher's) and whether the business has had audited account for a couple of years

If your salary is not up to snuff or business doesn't have the audited accounts they will not issue an extension with 90 day reporting, you have to visa run every 90 days on a multi entry B

But the above doesn't change the number of employee rules to be issued a WP in the first place

And yes they are scrutinising passports, mine was looked at for only the 2nd time in 14 years as regards my work status (WP/extension) not two weeks ago at swampy

What you are saying sounds correct. So I don't understand why they would ask me for my work permit and say that I cannot do the border run in future. If for example I did not have a work permit why would I not be permitted to depart and renter every 90 days during the validity of my 12 month visa?

Er based on your previous post what your doing is illegal by your own admission, yours has been obtained under false pretenses so I would be bleating on too much to immigration

Where did you get the impression I was bleating to immigration?

I never said you did, I said you shouldn't Edited July 7, 2014 by ubonjoe
fixed broken quotes (space needed between quote code blocks and text).

[digitalchromakey]

Perhaps the Thai immigration officer felt that the multiple-entry non-B visa was not the correct visa for living in Thailand long-term with back-to-back border runs.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Interesting, but as a matter of fact I do have only one back-to-back stamp in my passport within the last 5 years ... I did go to Satun one time this year but other than that I went to/from Prague, Düsseldorf and Berlin within the last 12 months and it was not for one day. Of course they will not show in my passport as I am EU citizen an do not get stamped there.

The Thai immgration stamps however do not go back-to back as I did stay in Europe for a period of time every time.

Actually that is where I am living, where I have my main income and business (workshop and showroom, staff and markets, so no internet business either) and pay taxes. This is also what I explained to the officer.

Does this still fit your theory?

Hope you don't mind me asking the following question.

If your business (workshop, show room, staff and markets) is in Europe, on what basis do you need a Non Immigrant 'B' visa for Thailand?

[digitalchromakey]

You say it has nothing to do with. to having the four employees? Regarding the work permit it is still issued with zero employees for a fee. I know a number of people who do this.

Do you therefore know why holders of non imm B without employees need to do the visa runs? I have several friends in the same situation.

There is no provision in the rules for limited companies to be issued a WP without the required 4 or 2 employees dependent on whether married to a thai for a fee

The only exception I am aware of is setting up a representative office which requires no Thai employee, but requires repatriation of Thb 5.0 mill in to Thailand, the first 3 mil in the first year, and under those circumstances its an extension of stay that's issued

The only two reasons why some in your case would be visa running with a WP is:

1 business has not been in operation long enough

2 WP holder does not meet the salary requirements for his nationality for extension to be issued

Or the 3 option, the legal company/accountant is playing silly buggers somehow, and you had better find out what exactly it is they are doing

You might be better explaining what legal structure you have set up to be issued a WP to comment further

Well actually I think we are in agreement. If you read again what I have said ...I didn't claim that such work permits were LEGALLY issued. They are issued by way of a payment to staff in the local Labour Department. This is common and those who can afford it take the next step of putting 4 imaginary employees on the books pay their social security and avoid the need to do the visa run.

So as I understand it, someone who has through their advisors/ accountants achieved this stands in the same position as a person who has a non immigrant B visa without a work permit, and is therefore required to do the visa runs.

Happy to be corrected on this.

You can get an extension based on working in the Kingdom of Thailand if you meet the criteriae in the document attached below and would then not need to make 90 day border runs.

Visa extension on the basis of employment 777 2551 Case 2.1t.pdf

[alex_4000]

Perhaps the Thai immigration officer felt that the multiple-entry non-B visa was not the correct visa for living in Thailand long-term with back-to-back border runs.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Interesting, but as a matter of fact I do have only one back-to-back stamp in my passport within the last 5 years ... I did go to Satun one time this year but other than that I went to/from Prague, Düsseldorf and Berlin within the last 12 months and it was not for one day. Of course they will not show in my passport as I am EU citizen an do not get stamped there.

The Thai immgration stamps however do not go back-to back as I did stay in Europe for a period of time every time.

Actually that is where I am living, where I have my main income and business (workshop and showroom, staff and markets, so no internet business either) and pay taxes. This is also what I explained to the officer.

Does this still fit your theory?

Hope you don't mind me asking the following question.

If your business (workshop, show room, staff and markets) is in Europe, on what basis do you need a Non Immigrant 'B' visa for Thailand?

Not sure why this is important so lets just say I do business here as I do in other countries, too, in favor of my business in Germany in sort of licensing, export and service which is why the Thai consulate issued that visa in the first place and yes they wanted to see proof from my business connections in Thailand beforehand.

Seeing a few people here reading between the lines i start wondering: Is it really that unusual to get a business visa to actually do business in Thailand - and be it for an extended period of time?! Did I miss something?

Well, I hope I could help anyone with my report who might face similar problems when exiting/entering Thailand on a non-B without WP or Ltd company.

And I would like to thank everyone, who actually helped me out in this situation by sharing their knowledge and experience. It is well appreciated!

[digitalchromakey]

Perhaps the Thai immigration officer felt that the multiple-entry non-B visa was not the correct visa for living in Thailand long-term with back-to-back border runs.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Interesting, but as a matter of fact I do have only one back-to-back stamp in my passport within the last 5 years ... I did go to Satun one time this year but other than that I went to/from Prague, Düsseldorf and Berlin within the last 12 months and it was not for one day. Of course they will not show in my passport as I am EU citizen an do not get stamped there.

The Thai immgration stamps however do not go back-to back as I did stay in Europe for a period of time every time.

Actually that is where I am living, where I have my main income and business (workshop and showroom, staff and markets, so no internet business either) and pay taxes. This is also what I explained to the officer.

Does this still fit your theory?

Hope you don't mind me asking the following question.

If your business (workshop, show room, staff and markets) is in Europe, on what basis do you need a Non Immigrant 'B' visa for Thailand?

Not sure why this is important so lets just say I do business here as I do in other countries, too, in favor of my business in Germany in sort of licensing, export and service which is why the Thai consulate issued that visa in the first place and yes they wanted to see proof from my business connections in Thailand beforehand.

Seeing a few people here reading between the lines i start wondering: Is it really that unusual to get a business visa to actually do business in Thailand - and be it for an extended period of time?! Did I miss something?

Well, I hope I could help anyone with my report who might face similar problems when exiting/entering Thailand on a non-B without WP or Ltd company.

And I would like to thank everyone, who actually helped me out in this situation by sharing their knowledge and experience. It is well appreciated!

Thanks for the reply..

Yes there is a category of non 'B' visa for doing business in Thailand and you may well appear to meet the criteriae in section 2.1 (2) - see link below:

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/123/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-%22B%22-(for-Business-and.html

So what is highlighted is the current crack down heavy handed approach where Work Permits are demanded at the border, but where a Work Permit may not be required to do business here if your company is based in Europe.

Don't know how to resolve this one; from your post you indicated that you must have entered Thailand in late May and I guess the immigration Officer at Ranong suspected that you were working here illegally, as it is, I think you would agree, unusual to be 'doing business' in a country for two months with out actually working...

Guess in future you will need a schedule of meetings with suppliers, details of your European Company and its business, etc to reassure immigration the next time you arrive on a Multiple Entry Non Immigrant 'B' Visa.

Edited July 6, 2014 by digitalchromakey

[harrry]

If you are doing any business here you do need to have a work permit. Maybe you need to set up a representative office here and get a work permit for yourself from it. An O visa does not give you any permission to work. Esentially it just gives you the right to apply for a work permit.

[NanLaew]

For a while between 2008 and 2011, I availed myself of multiple-entry, 1-year, Non-B's based on the rather vague premise of doing business in Thailand, ie. meeting clients, informal meetings and basic industry networking. Both the RTC in Houston and Hull issued these with the minimum documentation beyond a letter from my main agent who is actually based in the UK. Handily enough, I did manage to get three gigs in Thailand during that time and had the correct visa to get the WP's.

Since then, there has been a tightening of the enforcement of the existing regulations inasmuch as generally the multiple Non-O for Business needs much more substantial documentary support before it is issued. The fact that the Non-O for Business is also the prime enabler for the issuing of a Thai WP that has already been applied for, it appears that Immigration are seeking proof that with your Non-O multiple-entry visa, you are either working (or soon to be working) with a WP or actually conducting business and not sitting in your condo, playing golf or doing some vague 'internet business', ie. staying long term in Thailand under the wrong visa. It's the same rationale being applied to those sitting in their condo, playing golf or doing some vague 'internet business' on a TR visa, permission to stay stamps and/or a combination of those.

[MrWorldwide]

If you are doing any business here you do need to have a work permit. Maybe you need to set up a representative office here and get a work permit for yourself from it. An O visa does not give you any permission to work. Esentially it just gives you the right to apply for a work permit.

O visa ? I must have missed something here but I didnt think we were talking about the non-Imm O visa - mine specifically forbids me from working in the Kingdom.

[harrry]

If you are doing any business here you do need to have a work permit. Maybe you need to set up a representative office here and get a work permit for yourself from it. An O visa does not give you any permission to work. Esentially it just gives you the right to apply for a work permit.

O visa ? I must have missed something here but I didnt think we were talking about the non-Imm O visa - mine specifically forbids me from working in the Kingdom.

The OP stated he had a nom Imm O visa. He also stated he did not have a work permit. In other posts he stated his business was based in Europe

Not sure why this is important so lets just say I do business here as I do in other countries, too, in favor of my business in Germany in sort of licensing, export and service

This is why I posted it as it seems the OP thinks that an O visa is what permits him to service his business in Thailand. He does not seem to realise he also would need a work permit.

Edited July 7, 2014 by harrry

[chrisinth]

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If you are doing any business here you do need to have a work permit. Maybe you need to set up a representative office here and get a work permit for yourself from it. An O visa does not give you any permission to work. Esentially it just gives you the right to apply for a work permit.

O visa ? I must have missed something here but I didnt think we were talking about the non-Imm O visa - mine specifically forbids me from working in the Kingdom.

I was going to reply to Harry's last post, but will answer here to address two points.

Harry, I don't understand the wording that a non-O only gives you the right to apply for a work permit? I have been in country working for the last 9 years on a non-O visa, rather extensions based on that non-O. At the time, mine didn't have any stamps forbidding me to work. We have had a position filled last year with the employee on a non-O as well, no change to the visa required and extension based on the non-O.

To my knowledge the reason the non-B came into existence was for the convenience of travelers visiting Thailand, enabling them to conduct work at irregular intervals. The non-B visa has evolved somewhat since that time.

Edited July 7, 2014 by chrisinth

[ubonjoe]

The OP stated he had a nom Imm O visa. He also stated he did not have a work permit. In other posts he stated his business was based in Europe

Topic title "90 Day Borderbounce: Denied' Exit in Ranong despite non-B"

[harrry]

The OP stated he had a nom Imm O visa. He also stated he did not have a work permit. In other posts he stated his business was based in Europe

Topic title "90 Day Borderbounce: Denied' Exit in Ranong despite non-B"

OK granted I typed O in error. He does have a non-B Visa. This however does not permit any work in the country without a Work Permit. The OP has indicated that he is working for his company in providing advisory services etc here and that is working and needs a work permit.

While the intitial visa may be issued to set up work and get a work visa the fact that he has not got a work permit would surely be a flag after the first entry.

[digitalchromakey]

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If you are doing any business here you do need to have a work permit. Maybe you need to set up a representative office here and get a work permit for yourself from it. An O visa does not give you any permission to work. Esentially it just gives you the right to apply for a work permit.

O visa ? I must have missed something here but I didnt think we were talking about the non-Imm O visa - mine specifically forbids me from working in the Kingdom.

I was going to reply to Harry's last post, but will answer here to address two points.

Harry, I don't understand the wording that a non-O only gives you the right to apply for a work permit? I have been in country working for the last 9 years on a non-O visa, rather extensions based on that non-O. At the time, mine didn't have any stamps forbidding me to work. We have had a position filled last year with the employee on a non-O as well, no change to the visa required and extension based on the non-O.

To my knowledge the reason the non-B came into existence was for the convenience of travelers visiting Thailand, enabling them to conduct work at irregular intervals. The non-B visa has evolved somewhat since that time.

Your WP will be granted dependent on your extension basis, if you are already on an extension, not the visa that you entered on 9 years ago.

'B" is the norm, but many labour departments will issue WPs based on non immigrant 'O' entry stamps, provided there is no exclusion clause against working (often put in if the applicant has applied for retirement purposes).

In fact the non immigrant 'O' is the generic catch all visa - 'O' stands for other.

The 'B' visa has always been, certainly during the 14 years that I have been here, the first stop for some one wishing to either apply to work in Thailand or to 'do business' here.

[Soutpeel]

The OP stated he had a nom Imm O visa. He also stated he did not have a work permit. In other posts he stated his business was based in Europe

Topic title "90 Day Borderbounce: Denied' Exit in Ranong despite non-B"

OK granted I typed O in error. He does have a non-B Visa. This however does not permit any work in the country without a Work Permit. The OP has indicated that he is working for his company in providing advisory services etc here and that is working and needs a work permit.

While the intitial visa may be issued to set up work and get a work visa the fact that he has not got a work permit would surely be a flag after the first entry.

There is a bit of gray area even for immigration and DOL as to what constitutes visiting Thailand for the purposes of business, ie only requires the B visa, and what constitutes "work" and requires a WP as well

As mentioned a few times, I have heard that there are plans a foot to require anyone landing on a B visa to have a WP even if its only a temporary WP (14 day) sponsored by the Thai entity they are visiting in Thailand

Based on the number of people who have been stopped on non b's and asked about WP 's recently there may be some foundation in what I heard, it seems immigration are very aware that people are abusing the " B" visa and not using them for what they were intended for, eg they are using them to stay long term with no intention of setting up a business or are even working on them without the WP

Think we are in for interesting times over the next few months

[phuketrichard]

Question;

my gf just received her non B visa an she has her wp.

are u saying that she cant or can travel to Ranong for her 90 day exit/return?

[Bluedan]

Question;

my gf just received her non B visa an she has her wp.

are u saying that she cant or can travel to Ranong for her 90 day exit/return?

I was told I cannot.

[ubonjoe]

Question;

my gf just received her non B visa an she has her wp.

are u saying that she cant or can travel to Ranong for her 90 day exit/return?

As long as she has her work permit with her to show immigration she should not have a problem getting another 90 day entry.

The OP would not of had a problem if he had one.

[MK1]

Question;

my gf just received her non B visa an she has her wp.

are u saying that she cant or can travel to Ranong for her 90 day exit/return?

As long as she has her work permit with her to show immigration she should not have a problem getting another 90 day entry.

The OP would not of had a problem if he had one.

.

I’ll second that too, crossing the border at Ranong should not be problem with a Non-B plus providing you can produce the valid WP.

The people at the Immigration office there are extremely helpful compared to other provinces.

The problem with Alex_4000 is that most likely had no proof of onward travel while having just a non-B and no WP. Subsequently, he could not prove evidence to the contrary and denied departure for renewal.

If you’re unsure, call the Ranong Immigration office to check your status before going there.

[stevenl]

Question;

my gf just received her non B visa an she has her wp.

are u saying that she cant or can travel to Ranong for her 90 day exit/return?

I was told I cannot.

But you did not have a workpermit.

[Bluedan]

Question;

my gf just received her non B visa an she has her wp.

are u saying that she cant or can travel to Ranong for her 90 day exit/return?

I was told I cannot.

But you did not have a workpermit.

I do have a WP. I didn't take it with me because I have never been asked to produce it on a visa run. I had my accountant email copies and was still told no more border runs at least at Ranong.

I am assuming that the current policy at Ranong is this:

1. If you have a non immigrant B visa and no WP you can enter the kingdom for up to 90 days but this should not mean doing one day border runs but would facilitate some one living abroad and entering now and then to do business as opposed to work.

2. If you have the same visa with a work permit this means that you have satisfied the criteria which would enable an onshore extension and no need to do visa runs.

[stevenl]

Question;

my gf just received her non B visa an she has her wp.

are u saying that she cant or can travel to Ranong for her 90 day exit/return?

I was told I cannot.

But you did not have a workpermit.

I do have a WP. I didn't take it with me because I have never been asked to produce it on a visa run. I had my accountant email copies and was still told no more border runs at least at Ranong.

I am assuming that the current policy at Ranong is this:

1. If you have a non immigrant B visa and no WP you can enter the kingdom for up to 90 days but this should not mean doing one day border runs but would facilitate some one living abroad and entering now and then to do business as opposed to work.

2. If you have the same visa with a work permit this means that you have satisfied the criteria which would enable an onshore extension and no need to do visa runs.

Sorry, I remember again, I had you confused with the OP.

You had different issues, namely 4 Thai staff. Your final conclusions though could IMO be completely correct and would make sense as well.

Edited July 7, 2014 by stevenl

[phuketrichard]

there not the same

a non immigrant visa is a visa an you need depart every 3 months

if you have a non b visa and than LATER obtain an EXTENSION you only report every 90 days

Note; I asked the thai embassy about getting my Cambodian GF her 1 year Non B visa in PP as she had a wp. they told me;

As your girlfriend has already received a Non-B visa once, existing regulations prohibit us from issuing another non-B to her again. Please contact your nearest Immigration Office in Thailand to extend the existing visa, as this is the correct way to extend her stay in Thailand.

As to BlueDan; you made him lose face so no way would he admit he was wrong.

to get an extension;
(4) The business concerned must have duly submitted its financial statement as at the end of the two fiscal years and certified by an auditor or tax auditor, showing a sound financial condition and an on-going active business as attached order

Edited July 7, 2014 by phuketrichard

[MK1]

there not the same

a non immigrant visa is a visa an you need depart every 3 months

if you have a non b visa and than LATER obtain an EXTENSION you only report every 90 days

Note; I asked the thai embassy about getting my Cambodian GF her 1 year Non B visa in PP as she had a wp. they told me;

As your girlfriend has already received a Non-B visa once, existing regulations prohibit us from issuing another non-B to her again. Please contact your nearest Immigration Office in Thailand to extend the existing visa, as this is the correct way to extend her stay in Thailand.

As to BlueDan; you made him lose face so no way would he admit he was wrong.

to get an extension;

(4) The business concerned must have duly submitted its financial statement as at the end of the two fiscal years and certified by an auditor or tax auditor, showing a sound financial condition and an on-going active business as attached order

Plenty of traps to fall into when there’s no multiple entry permit including if the company is financially unstable in terms of tax reporting.

Edited July 7, 2014 by MK1

[Bakseeda]

Go do your crossing an Ban Phu Nam Ron.... you will have no trouble there... (near Kanchanaburi) 100% sure.

[phuketrichard]

LONG WAY from PHuket

[chrisinth]

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If you are doing any business here you do need to have a work permit. Maybe you need to set up a representative office here and get a work permit for yourself from it. An O visa does not give you any permission to work. Esentially it just gives you the right to apply for a work permit.

O visa ? I must have missed something here but I didnt think we were talking about the non-Imm O visa - mine specifically forbids me from working in the Kingdom.

I was going to reply to Harry's last post, but will answer here to address two points.

Harry, I don't understand the wording that a non-O only gives you the right to apply for a work permit? I have been in country working for the last 9 years on a non-O visa, rather extensions based on that non-O. At the time, mine didn't have any stamps forbidding me to work. We have had a position filled last year with the employee on a non-O as well, no change to the visa required and extension based on the non-O.

To my knowledge the reason the non-B came into existence was for the convenience of travelers visiting Thailand, enabling them to conduct work at irregular intervals. The non-B visa has evolved somewhat since that time.

Your WP will be granted dependent on your extension basis, if you are already on an extension, not the visa that you entered on 9 years ago.

'B" is the norm, but many labour departments will issue WPs based on non immigrant 'O' entry stamps, provided there is no exclusion clause against working (often put in if the applicant has applied for retirement purposes).

In fact the non immigrant 'O' is the generic catch all visa - 'O' stands for other.

The 'B' visa has always been, certainly during the 14 years that I have been here, the first stop for some one wishing to either apply to work in Thailand or to 'do business' here.

I initially entered Thailand with a multi non-O with the reason as dependency (support Thai wife). I was offered work, issued with work permit and the reason on the non-O changed to work (I presume). Perhaps not in that particular order.

Point being, the extensions were based on the original non-O multi entry which at the time I wasn't on an extension.

Not arguing about it, just commenting.

[digitalchromakey]

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I was going to reply to Harry's last post, but will answer here to address two points.

Harry, I don't understand the wording that a non-O only gives you the right to apply for a work permit? I have been in country working for the last 9 years on a non-O visa, rather extensions based on that non-O. At the time, mine didn't have any stamps forbidding me to work. We have had a position filled last year with the employee on a non-O as well, no change to the visa required and extension based on the non-O.

To my knowledge the reason the non-B came into existence was for the convenience of travelers visiting Thailand, enabling them to conduct work at irregular intervals. The non-B visa has evolved somewhat since that time.

Your WP will be granted dependent on your extension basis, if you are already on an extension, not the visa that you entered on 9 years ago.

'B" is the norm, but many labour departments will issue WPs based on non immigrant 'O' entry stamps, provided there is no exclusion clause against working (often put in if the applicant has applied for retirement purposes).

In fact the non immigrant 'O' is the generic catch all visa - 'O' stands for other.

The 'B' visa has always been, certainly during the 14 years that I have been here, the first stop for some one wishing to either apply to work in Thailand or to 'do business' here.

I initially entered Thailand with a multi non-O with the reason as dependency (support Thai wife). I was offered work, issued with work permit and the reason on the non-O changed to work (I presume). Perhaps not in that particular order.

Point being, the extensions were based on the original non-O multi entry which at the time I wasn't on an extension.

Not arguing about it, just commenting.

Question is, was your extension based on your job (National Police Order 777/2551 Case 2.1) or working with a Thai family (National Police Order 777/2551 Case 2.18)?

You extension would not have been based on you non immigrant status, but that 90 day non immigrant status would simply have allowed you to be considered for an extension.

The extension status will probably be hand written in Thai above your extension stamp.

The non immigrant visa status per se is never changed.

Edited July 7, 2014 by digitalchromakey

[user82374298374]

As I posted in another thread, I heard a rumour not so long ago that people arriving in Thailand on non imm B visa where going to be required to have a least a temporary WP sponsored by the host entity in Thailand, and it seems at least in this case, the rumour may have some foundation

I'd be grateful if you could synopsize these rumors and/or provide a pointer to the other thread - ThaiVisa's function which supposedly allows one to view posts by specific users seems to return mangled HTML.

Many thanks!

[Soutpeel]

As I posted in another thread, I heard a rumour not so long ago that people arriving in Thailand on non imm B visa where going to be required to have a least a temporary WP sponsored by the host entity in Thailand, and it seems at least in this case, the rumour may have some foundation

I'd be grateful if you could synopsize these rumors and/or provide a pointer to the other thread - ThaiVisa's function which supposedly allows one to view posts by specific users seems to return mangled HTML.

Many thanks!

The rumour I heard is as stated above, nothing synopsise dear boy, it was a passing comment in conversation from a rather well to do business man I know, who does genuinely has lots of contacts in many government departments, he said himself its possibly a rumour but practically it makes perfect sense Edited July 7, 2014 by Soutpeel