Israel, Hamas on collision course as clashes escalate

[Ulysses G.]

It is an understatement to say that the Palestinians do not benefit from these rockets, only the Israelis benefit.

How is that surprising? The Palestinians have not "benefited" from waging war on the Israelis for the past 6 decades either. They are in much worse shape than when they started, yet they just keep on doing the exact same things.

[Pralaad]

Wow, providing sources from uncredible sources such as wikipedia which anyone can edit and from anti Islamic websites doesn't make it a fact. I gave you a direct reference from the quran.

You are welcome to provide other sources to dispute it, but keep in mind reference to a mosque is not reference to a city

If city was as holy as you claiming it to be, you do not think it would be mentioned?

[ggold]

Continuous occupation and whatever is left of Palestine and still trying to build illegal settlements deemed by international communities such as EU and UN as occupied territory is illegal.

Not saying Israel does not have the right to exist it does but so does Palestine based on equal share of land. But what's left of Palestine and still trying to build illegal settlements on it?

...

That's a new one. Based on an "equal" share of land. Where did that come from? I agree Palestinians deserve a state but given the long history of Arab wars determined at driving the Jews into the sea, I'd say if it is ever going to happen, they'll have to settle for something ... less. In other words, get real. Yes Israel has a strong military ... why is that ... because if they didn't there would be no Israel in that neighborhood, and everyone knows that.

Land share based on 1967 borders would be a good start.

Never going to happen. Why should Israel make peice with Hamas? If The palastinians want a country they can take Jordan which is 95% populated by palestinians anyway.

[ggold]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

Infact when the Arabs pray on the temple mount their <deleted> are facing the temple. That's how important it is to them.

[shariq607]

Wow, providing sources from uncredible sources such as wikipedia which anyone can edit and from anti Islamic websites doesn't make it a fact. I gave you a direct reference from the quran.

You are welcome to provide other sources to dispute it, but keep in mind reference to a mosque is not reference to a city

If city was as holy as you claiming it to be, you do not think it would be mentioned?

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

[shariq607]

Continuous occupation and whatever is left of Palestine and still trying to build illegal settlements deemed by international communities such as EU and UN as occupied territory is illegal.

Not saying Israel does not have the right to exist it does but so does Palestine based on equal share of land. But what's left of Palestine and still trying to build illegal settlements on it?

...

That's a new one. Based on an "equal" share of land. Where did that come from? I agree Palestinians deserve a state but given the long history of Arab wars determined at driving the Jews into the sea, I'd say if it is ever going to happen, they'll have to settle for something ... less. In other words, get real. Yes Israel has a strong military ... why is that ... because if they didn't there would be no Israel in that neighborhood, and everyone knows that.

Land share based on 1967 borders would be a good start.

Never going to happen. Why should Israel make peice with Hamas? If The palastinians want a country they can take Jordan which is 95% populated by palestinians anyway.

People like you are a big obstacle toward a peace deal and towards a viable two sovereign state solutions.

It is exactly because of people like you that we have not achieved a comprehensive peace deal that compromises as well as benefits both sides.

I hope future israeli leadership and palestinian leadership get cleansed out of people like you and we may be able to achieve an everlasting peace.

[Ulysses G.]

Actually, the problem is folks like the Palestinian leadership, who have turned down numerous deals for peace and for the chance to create their own nation, for the first time in history. It is people like Arafat and Hamas who are holding up progress and ruining the lives of their own people in the process..

Edited July 9, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Pralaad]

Wow, providing sources from uncredible sources such as wikipedia which anyone can edit and from anti Islamic websites doesn't make it a fact. I gave you a direct reference from the quran.

You are welcome to provide other sources to dispute it, but keep in mind reference to a mosque is not reference to a city

If city was as holy as you claiming it to be, you do not think it would be mentioned?

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

We can debate this endlessly, please provide evidence of Jerusalem being so important to Arabs?

Do they prey facing it? NO

Is it mentioned in Quran? NO

Is it respected? NO

It is the 3 city of so called importance, so not exactly the most important, is it?!

[ggold]

That's a new one. Based on an "equal" share of land. Where did that come from? I agree Palestinians deserve a state but given the long history of Arab wars determined at driving the Jews into the sea, I'd say if it is ever going to happen, they'll have to settle for something ... less. In other words, get real. Yes Israel has a strong military ... why is that ... because if they didn't there would be no Israel in that neighborhood, and everyone knows that.

Land share based on 1967 borders would be a good start.

Never going to happen. Why should Israel make peice with Hamas? If The palastinians want a country they can take Jordan which is 95% populated by palestinians anyway.

People like you are a big obstacle toward a peace deal and towards a viable two sovereign state solutions.

It is exactly because of people like you that we have not achieved a comprehensive peace deal that compromises as well as benefits both sides.

I hope future israeli leadership and palestinian leadership get cleansed out of people like you and we may be able to achieve an everlasting peace.

And you really think Hamas want peace. They are showing everyone what sort of peace they want. Also the idea that there would be a viable two state solution is faulse. The arab world has as much love of the palestinians, as the Israelis. Even Egypt left Gaza to Isreal because they did not want to deal with the palestinians.

[Morch]

@Morch: Back in 2006 Hamas stated they would recognise the State of Israel within the 1967 borders. Why was this position reversed?

"The Hamas movement is ready to recognize agreements signed with Israel, and in fact recognize Israel, but only within the '67 borders, senior Hamas member Khaled Suleiman said Wednesday.

According to Suleiman, the movement will be ready to accept a Palestinian state inside the '67 borders and will not operate to thwart diplomatic negotiations held by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3249568,00.html

In another topic you referenced 'maps'. Can't remember, which negotiation, but not long ago whereby it was claimed a mutually acceptable two State agreement was only weeks away, based upon finalising the 'maps', but collapsed as Palestinian elections did not allow for sufficient time to finalise matters.

For those interested below is the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs version of the timetable and issues for the various negotiations.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/peace/guide/pages/israel-palestinian%20negotiations.aspx

As pointed out, Hamas is made out of two main "wings", political and military. There are further, divisions, especially among the political wing - hardliners vs. moderates (and I use moderate in a very loose sense here), leaders within Gaza Strip and leadership based abroad, Hamas in the Gaza Strip vs. Hamas in West Bank.

Theoretically, the military wing is subordinate to the political wing, in practice, it doesn't quite work this way. Each set of negotiations of whatever kind with Hamas involves internal negotiations of their own.

So yes, there are sometimes announcements like the one linked. They are almost always not made by leaders who bear real influence, almost always made by members of the political wing. This usually comes up whenever the Palestinians have one of their unification get togethers. The usual addendum is that they will not take steps to punish terrorists until a full treaty is signed to their satisfaction and that they will not relinquish control of their military assets.

Until a statement such as this would be made by a major figure and be confirmed as generally accepted by Hamas, I will choose to remain skeptic as to its importance. There was a similar case not long ago, a day or so after the announcement regarding the new Palestinian unification effort - a Hamas leader (not top notch, mind) gave an interview in which he did not go the full mile as the one linked, but close enough. That was about it, following statements were more militant in nature.

As for the second issue raised, I'm not sure which "maps", in which other topic, I supposedly made a reference to, and what that reference was about. If you point me out (by PM or otherwise) to the relevant post, I'll have look.

My general view is that both sides are not quite willing to make the sacrifices, concessions and compromises that will be part of any lasting peace agreement.

[Johpa]

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

And that is the crux of the matter as there is no rationality when all sides base at least part of their "claims" upon the existence of some imagined invisible man in the sky who they declare has the final word on the matter. Atheism, the denial of any invisible man in the sky, is the only reponse to all the crazies out there. We non-theists need a flag that clearly states that there is no god, perhaps a multi-colored flag with a peace symbol.

[Morch]

We all seem to be repeating old songs so why not.

The struggle is like a chess match between Bobby Fischer and Gomer Pyle. Israel has at least a 40 pt average IQ advantage which everyone on the forum alludes to in these threads without having to spell it out. True or not, the pro-Israeli posters and the Israeli Jews believe it to be true. The Israelis have the most competent intelligence operations in the world. In Gaza, there are more agents and CIs per square meter than anywhere in the world. The area is under constant surveillance from the air via drone and satellites. I continue to maintain that the only reason these rockets get launched, without somebody stopping them in the act, is that the Israelis want these rockets to be launched.

They rarely hit anything. These rockets are not guided but they should be able to hit a town. The mortars can be fairly accurate but they also never seem to hit anything. An entire case of mortar rounds can be fired in a couple of minutes but these mortar rounds are never counted and we don't know what size and make the mortars are but we collectively believe these mortar rounds are smuggled in from places like Iran. Again they never seem to hit anything. Again the question is, why are the Iranians not smuggling in a guided capability that can do more damage? What would be the point of smuggling weapons and munitions that have little or no chance of being effective?

I have worked with the Israelis, they would never let these rockets get off the ground unless they wanted these rockets launched. We are talking about tens of thousands of worthless rockets of which over 95% land in the desert.

Not being one for having too much credence, not acknowledging the importance or relevance of IQ and DNA related notions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I resent your assertion regarding what posters or Jews believe. Doubt you've actually made a survey or that your impressions of these supposed attitude trends are somehow a valid observation.

Next. While Israel's intelligence agencies are pretty good, they are by no means the most competent in the world. They may be said to top tier as far as it concerns Israel's neighbors. Israel's capabilities further afield, are not necessarily outstanding. Of course, the above goes as far as collecting information - correct analysis and accurate predictions are both quite different matters. Again, Israeli intelligence record on this is far from perfect. They are good, not omniscient. Your assertion that the Gaza Strip has more agents per square meter than anywhere else in the world is based on...? Yes, the Gaza Strip is under almost constant surveillance, but it does not mean that Israel knows everything. There are limits to what can be done and be known. That without considering the Palestinian's action, which unlike the picture painted by you are far from being idle, and actually improve their capabilities and tactics in order to adapt to the Israeli side.

Onward. Saying several times that the rockets fired from Gaza Strip almost never hit, does not quite make it true. The rockets (and mortars, them too) do hit. The immediate area on the Israeli side around the Gaza Strip is made out of mostly villages, agricultural and military areas. Mortar fire is normally directed at either nearby villages, or IDF bases and forces - towns and cities being a bit out of range. They do cause quite a bit of damage directly and indirectly (hard to run a business or work fields under fire - a good example of this would be Thai workers hurt).

A few points that should explain some aspects alluded to in your post:

- The IDF vastly improved its fire response times and accuracy. This means that a manned launcher is risky, and a buried remotely operated launcher might not have a long service term as well. Letting of the pressure by the IDF, would result in improved accuracy. Underground launchers are usually fixed, making adjustments as to their intended range and target is not always possible to do under fire.

- Lack of rocket guidance, radars and proper intelligence - all limit accuracy and hit rate. The issue is not so much knowing where the rockets fired hit (enough media coverage and local eyes on the ground for that), but more to do with the location and coverage areas of the Iron Dome batteries. One of the means the Palestinians employ this time is executing bursts of massive rocket fired at a large spread of targets. The idea is to challenge Iron Dome's capacity to deal with multiple targets. So far it is not very effective, although the IDF said it did change the amount of actual interceptions attempts (reasons both operational and economic).

- Israel has a much improved alert system, and public is more aware of the need to follow security precautions. While there are complaints about shelters not being adequate in some areas, the situation in general is not bad. Iron Dome is definitely a game changer as far as short range rockets go.

- Lack of proper training - Hamas cannot practice actual launches of rockets (and to a lesser degree, mortars) without calling in an IDF strike. As a result, they take a hit whenever one of the more experienced personnel gets killed. That would also be relevant to speed and accuracy issued related to mortar fire.

- Shoddy manufacture - Not all the rockets launched make it to Israel, some explode prematurely, some are duds. However, it does seem that they improve things between rounds, so somewhat less of an issue.

- Rockets are not a major threat as far as casualties go (at least not until cluster warheads will be introduced). They are not intended to inflict casualties, but rather they serve to immobilize soft targets and instill terror. That is not to say that there are no casualties or damage done. The main targets are morale and public opinion (on both sides).

There are constant attempts to smuggle better hardware to the Gaza Strip, Sinai peninsula and Lebanon. So far, most attempted have been thwarted. My guess is that this will not last forever - as the same thing happened with the rockets.

You have worked with some Israelis, great. I know quite a few too - they are not supermen.

To cap, your "argument" is basically that rockets are totally ineffective, and Israel being omnipotent it basically allows, if not indirectly initiates the Palestinian attacks. This outlandish conspiracy theory is supposedly supported by a set of spurious assertions based on personal opinions, presented as accepted common knowledge, and spiced with factual inaccuracies.

[NeverSure]

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

We can debate this endlessly, please provide evidence of Jerusalem being so important to Arabs?

Do they prey facing it? NO

Is it mentioned in Quran? NO

Is it respected? NO

It is the 3 city of so called importance, so not exactly the most important, is it?!

The Muslims originally prayed toward Jerusalem but changed to Mecca.

Yes it is mentioned in the Quran. It is also mentioned prominently in the Old Testament which the Muslims also have.

It is definitely respected and has a major Muslim temple on the original temple site in E. Jerusalem.

What in the world do you think all of the fighting is about? Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe they can worship properly without access to that site.

[Morch]

If hamas did not stop the attacks then why is Israel continuing to build settlements in east jerusalem and other areas that are not controlled by hamas ?

If I was in charge of Israel, I would never give the Arabs any part of Jerusalem, but, in the past, they have agreed to give the Palestinians East Jerusalem in an informal agreement in 2003 and have also proposed making all of Jerusalem an open city or allowing international supervision of Jerusalem's holy sites. The Israelis have already proved that they are willing to trade land for peace and that they will move any settlers off the land, before turning it over. As far as I am concerned, the settlements are meant as motivation for the Palestinians to stop stalling and sign a peace agreement, before it is too late.

Luckily, then, you are not "in charge of Israel" , not that it matters much on this front as most of the current leaders are set on pretty much the same opinions. Saying "never", in the context of getting an agreement between two sides who both need to make concessions is a good example of how things never get anywhere. It is one thing to hold this opinion, and even present it an negotiations, setting it up as a per-condition might not be just the thing to do.

In general, I think that the Jerusalem issue is way over blown out of proportion, as far as possible solutions go. There were quite a few almost workable formulations of this, usually they don't even get to the point of discussing it much, as the talks get stalled on other things. Making arrangements for a city, rather than a territory is less complicated. Not easy at all, don't get me wrong, but there are, in reality, more problematic issues. The Jerusalem card is played for the benefit of gathering popular emotional and religious support.

The settlements, which you see as motivators, have been around for a while. Somehow the point isn't getting across, and as a side effect to this motivational-fail, they actually make the other side pissed off to an immeasurable degree. As time passes, Israeli governments tend to treat the settlements as a purpose by itself, rather than a temporary pressure applying measure.

[Morch]

We all seem to be repeating old songs so why not.

The struggle is like a chess match between Bobby Fischer and Gomer Pyle. Israel has at least a 40 pt average IQ advantage which everyone on the forum alludes to in these threads without having to spell it out. True or not, the pro-Israeli posters and the Israeli Jews believe it to be true. The Israelis have the most competent intelligence operations in the world. In Gaza, there are more agents and CIs per square meter than anywhere in the world. The area is under constant surveillance from the air via drone and satellites. I continue to maintain that the only reason these rockets get launched, without somebody stopping them in the act, is that the Israelis want these rockets to be launched.

They rarely hit anything. These rockets are not guided but they should be able to hit a town. The mortars can be fairly accurate but they also never seem to hit anything. An entire case of mortar rounds can be fired in a couple of minutes but these mortar rounds are never counted and we don't know what size and make the mortars are but we collectively believe these mortar rounds are smuggled in from places like Iran. Again they never seem to hit anything. Again the question is, why are the Iranians not smuggling in a guided capability that can do more damage? What would be the point of smuggling weapons and munitions that have little or no chance of being effective?

I have worked with the Israelis, they would never let these rockets get off the ground unless they wanted these rockets launched. We are talking about tens of thousands of worthless rockets of which over 95% land in the desert.

If rockets never hit anything, what is the point of keep on firing them?

Why Iranians are not smuggling better rockets? because they can not, but have tried and keep on trying.

Why does not Hamas make better rockets? they would if they could, but due to blockades and tough security they can not

What is the point of smuggling weapons that have little or no chance of being effective? it is a million dollar question, giving opportunity to smuggle better weapons, you do not think they would?

Have you noticed that these rockets never hit the wall. They fly over the wall and into the desert. If they happen to hit somebody walking their dog in the desert, it is not really that big a deal. At least the Palestinians would hit the wall just to aggrivate the other side. Nope, over the wall and into the desert. They fired 200 rockets in the last two days and if it weren't for gravity, they would not have hit anything.

You are telling me that the Israelis are smart enough to stop the smuggling but not smart enough to stop the firing. I won't buy that for a second. It is an understatement to say that the Palestinians do not benefit from these rockets, only the Israelis benefit. Military aid, victim sympathy, expanding the settlements. etc... The Palestinians get their homes destroyed and their families killed. At least you would think that the Palestinians would at least try to damage the wall. I mean it would do some damage and maybe 200 rockets might just cause some grief on the other side.

At least if they were fired from the west bank they would be able to hit populated areas, nope, over the wall in gaza and into the desert. Of course I know the difference between Hamas and the PA. Still Palestinians with the same axe to grind.

What "wall" are these rockets supposed to hit?

Most of the actual "wall" is surrounding areas in the West Bank. Large parts of the so called "wall" are actually high-tech

fence with added security measures. The rockets are fired from the Gaza Strip. There is not much of a wall for them to

destroy. The security fence around the Gaza Strip does get repeated attempted attacks - not with rockets though, what

would be the point?

The rockets do not hit the "desert", fair number fall in open areas - which would include fields and roads.

That "it is not a big deal" as far as you are concerned is clear, that does not make it true nor do the people living there seem

to share your nonchalance. Ignoring that some of the rockets fired in the present round did hit, and ignoring objective reasons

why many do not hit will not make your claims any more in line with reality.

The Israelis (and the Egyptians) indeed succeed in blocking much of the smuggling into Gaza, but probably not all of it. Over

time Hamas (and other organizations) developed a certain level of manufacture capability - which gets better every year.

As for who benefits - your mistake is equating the "Palestinians" (as a whole or even as civilians in the Gaza Strip) with the

Hamas & Co. The rockets, the fighting, the severing of connection with the PA - non of it was beneficial for the Palestinians.

It was and it is, beneficial for Hamas's survival. That's about it. It serves as means to unite people under the supposed fight

against Israel (which leads nowhere), it serves to garner popular support when they get hit by the IDF, it gets morale going

due to a lot of fake "wins", and at the end of each round enter Egypt, the PA, perhaps a US envoy and Tony Blair - a deal is

reached, they get some more concessions regarding funds and flow of goods - which keeps them going until the next time.

Israel does not get military aid because of the rockets attacks. The USA aid predates this by decades. victim sympathy?

For real? Each time Israel attacks in the Gaza Strip, whatever sympathy earned is gone out the window. The last bit is

another nice trick - the rockets have little to do with expanding settlements, and there are no settlements in the Gaza Strip.

Doesn't seem like you have a very clear idea about what exactly it is you "won't buy for a second".

[Morch]

We all seem to be repeating old songs so why not.

The struggle is like a chess match between Bobby Fischer and Gomer Pyle. Israel has at least a 40 pt average IQ advantage which everyone on the forum alludes to in these threads without having to spell it out. True or not, the pro-Israeli posters and the Israeli Jews believe it to be true. The Israelis have the most competent intelligence operations in the world. In Gaza, there are more agents and CIs per square meter than anywhere in the world. The area is under constant surveillance from the air via drone and satellites. I continue to maintain that the only reason these rockets get launched, without somebody stopping them in the act, is that the Israelis want these rockets to be launched.

They rarely hit anything. These rockets are not guided but they should be able to hit a town. The mortars can be fairly accurate but they also never seem to hit anything. An entire case of mortar rounds can be fired in a couple of minutes but these mortar rounds are never counted and we don't know what size and make the mortars are but we collectively believe these mortar rounds are smuggled in from places like Iran. Again they never seem to hit anything. Again the question is, why are the Iranians not smuggling in a guided capability that can do more damage? What would be the point of smuggling weapons and munitions that have little or no chance of being effective?

I have worked with the Israelis, they would never let these rockets get off the ground unless they wanted these rockets launched. We are talking about tens of thousands of worthless rockets of which over 95% land in the desert.

If rockets never hit anything, what is the point of keep on firing them?

Why Iranians are not smuggling better rockets? because they can not, but have tried and keep on trying.

Why does not Hamas make better rockets? they would if they could, but due to blockades and tough security they can not

What is the point of smuggling weapons that have little or no chance of being effective? it is a million dollar question, giving opportunity to smuggle better weapons, you do not think they would?

Have you noticed that these rockets never hit the wall. They fly over the wall and into the desert. If they happen to hit somebody walking their dog in the desert, it is not really that big a deal. At least the Palestinians would hit the wall just to aggrivate the other side. Nope, over the wall and into the desert. They fired 200 rockets in the last two days and if it weren't for gravity, they would not have hit anything.

You are telling me that the Israelis are smart enough to stop the smuggling but not smart enough to stop the firing. I won't buy that for a second. It is an understatement to say that the Palestinians do not benefit from these rockets, only the Israelis benefit. Military aid, victim sympathy, expanding the settlements. etc... The Palestinians get their homes destroyed and their families killed. At least you would think that the Palestinians would at least try to damage the wall. I mean it would do some damage and maybe 200 rockets might just cause some grief on the other side.

At least if they were fired from the west bank they would be able to hit populated areas, nope, over the wall in gaza and into the desert. Of course I know the difference between Hamas and the PA. Still Palestinians with the same axe to grind.

In case you have not noticed tunnels take days or months to build , firing a rocket takes seconds.

If you know a way to detect a rocket launcher in minutes if not seconds and how to destroy it just as fast, I am sure Israel and the rest of the world would buy your technology

Just a small correction - the reaction time exhibited by the IDF/IAF with regards to detection/attacking rocket launchers

IS counted in minutes. Short of automating the whole process, I do not think they can cut it down much further.

[Pralaad]

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

We can debate this endlessly, please provide evidence of Jerusalem being so important to Arabs?

Do they prey facing it? NO

Is it mentioned in Quran? NO

Is it respected? NO

It is the 3 city of so called importance, so not exactly the most important, is it?!

The Muslims originally prayed toward Jerusalem but changed to Mecca.

Yes it is mentioned in the Quran. It is also mentioned prominently in the Old Testament which the Muslims also have.

It is definitely respected and has a major Muslim temple on the original temple site in E. Jerusalem.

What in the world do you think all of the fighting is about? Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe they can worship properly without access to that site.

It is not mentioned in Quran, but feel free to post links to it

It is definitely NOT resepected as all the riots and destruction's are in East Jerusalem.

As already stated it is 3rd site, mecca and medina are in the first 2 places, so most certainly not the priority

I do not know what all the fighting is about, why do not you tell me what all the fighting is about?

[Morch]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

The same can be said about some of the Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem and elsewhere.

Some definitely lack solid archeological and historical support to this popular accepted status, and yet they are deemed

to be holy.

Apart from the Temple Mount (and as it stands, actually just the Wailing Wall), other sites (especially supposed graves etc.),

are not really "holy" as far as Jewish religion goes. It has more to do with Jewish tradition and modern concepts of Judaism.

This can lead to a fascinating discussion of how Judaism evolved and which influences shaped it, but would probably be way

off topic.

The main point is that regardless of past formulations, Jerusalem and the mosques in question are presently considered to

be holy by most Muslims. Now, it is possible to try and prove that it wasn't always the case or that it was never the case or

that whatever - question is if such an endeavor is likely to get anywhere and if attempting it is indeed the best course of

action. I find it doubtful one would succeed in convincing the Muslim world to see it this way, when it is almost impossible to

reach an understanding on an internet forum...

[Morch]

Continuous occupation and whatever is left of Palestine and still trying to build illegal settlements deemed by international communities such as EU and UN as occupied territory is illegal.

Not saying Israel does not have the right to exist it does but so does Palestine based on equal share of land. But what's left of Palestine and still trying to build illegal settlements on it?

...

That's a new one. Based on an "equal" share of land. Where did that come from? I agree Palestinians deserve a state but given the long history of Arab wars determined at driving the Jews into the sea, I'd say if it is ever going to happen, they'll have to settle for something ... less. In other words, get real. Yes Israel has a strong military ... why is that ... because if they didn't there would be no Israel in that neighborhood, and everyone knows that.

Land share based on 1967 borders would be a good start.

Never going to happen. Why should Israel make peice with Hamas? If The palastinians want a country they can take Jordan which is 95% populated by palestinians anyway.

Israel is not intending to make peace with Hamas. An informal ceasefire at best.

Israel is dealing with the PA, which technically, if not actually, represents the Palestinian people and their interests.

Israel already withdrew from the Gaza Strip, pretty much to the 1967 border.

The PA controls large areas of the West Bank, with further areas to be discussed in future (whenever that is) negotiations.

The 1967 border is pretty much a baseline, with each sides pushing it this way or another. The basic concept, however, is

pretty much agreed.

The Palestinians cannot "take" Jordan. This isn't Risk. The Palestinians do not make 95% of the population of Jordan.

Without considering Jordan's interests and wishes, it is not obvious that it is in Israel's current best interest to promote

the formation of a hostile Palestinian state along its eastern border. Not with the mess going on in Syria and Iraq, and

maybe never.

[NeverSure]

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

We can debate this endlessly, please provide evidence of Jerusalem being so important to Arabs?

Do they prey facing it? NO

Is it mentioned in Quran? NO

Is it respected? NO

It is the 3 city of so called importance, so not exactly the most important, is it?!

The Muslims originally prayed toward Jerusalem but changed to Mecca.

Yes it is mentioned in the Quran. It is also mentioned prominently in the Old Testament which the Muslims also have.

It is definitely respected and has a major Muslim temple on the original temple site in E. Jerusalem.

What in the world do you think all of the fighting is about? Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe they can worship properly without access to that site.

It is not mentioned in Quran, but feel free to post links to it

See Post # 53 above. I thought everyone knew that.

It is definitely NOT resepected as all the riots and destruction's are in East Jerusalem.

The riots and destruction aren't at the holy Temple Mount which has an important Muslim temple on it.

As already stated it is 3rd site, mecca and medina are in the first 2 places, so most certainly not the priority

You don't think considering how it's mentioned in the Quran, and how it was originally what Muslims faced when praying, that it's important? Not even the Muslim Temple on the ancient Temple Site? Why do you think the Muslims even built the temple they prayed towards, on the site of the original Jewish temple while the Israelis were run off the land?

I do not know what all the fighting is about, why do not you tell me what all the fighting is about?

I just told you.

Edited July 9, 2014 by NeverSure

[Morch]

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

We can debate this endlessly, please provide evidence of Jerusalem being so important to Arabs?

Do they prey facing it? NO

Is it mentioned in Quran? NO

Is it respected? NO

It is the 3 city of so called importance, so not exactly the most important, is it?!

The Muslims originally prayed toward Jerusalem but changed to Mecca.

Yes it is mentioned in the Quran. It is also mentioned prominently in the Old Testament which the Muslims also have.

It is definitely respected and has a major Muslim temple on the original temple site in E. Jerusalem.

What in the world do you think all of the fighting is about? Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe they can worship properly without access to that site.

Jewish religion does not require access or control over the Temple Mount (in fact, most religious Jews avoid setting foot

in the supposed area of the Temple, due to some long standing religious prohibitions and reasoning). The Jews managed

to survive without the Wailing Wall for quite a while.

Religions, beliefs and traditions evolve - I think it can be just accepted that nowadays the city holds sites considered holy

and/or highly significant by Jews, Christians and Muslims.

[bina]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bina]

You all just waste a lot of bandwith arguing but if you havent been here then dont bother cause what u see from a safe seat isnt what u see ringside or in the middle of it. And I pity the gazaians but they are stuckin a rut of violence suckled at the breast snd including 4 yr olds in summer camp for learning jihad skills and cynical use if family houses for weapon storage and missile launchers...and they have no choice but to cooperate...or suffer...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bina]

So all this talk looks great on paper but when youre in it...perspective changes....lots of far off booms but no red alerts in our sector so I guess we'll see the mondial in peace and quiet

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NeverSure]

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

We can debate this endlessly, please provide evidence of Jerusalem being so important to Arabs?

Do they prey facing it? NO

Is it mentioned in Quran? NO

Is it respected? NO

It is the 3 city of so called importance, so not exactly the most important, is it?!

The Muslims originally prayed toward Jerusalem but changed to Mecca.

Yes it is mentioned in the Quran. It is also mentioned prominently in the Old Testament which the Muslims also have.

It is definitely respected and has a major Muslim temple on the original temple site in E. Jerusalem.

What in the world do you think all of the fighting is about? Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe they can worship properly without access to that site.

Jewish religion does not require access or control over the Temple Mount (in fact, most religious Jews avoid setting foot

in the supposed area of the Temple, due to some long standing religious prohibitions and reasoning). The Jews managed

to survive without the Wailing Wall for quite a while.

Religions, beliefs and traditions evolve - I think it can be just accepted that nowadays the city holds sites considered holy

and/or highly significant by Jews, Christians and Muslims.

I agree that to some extent...

But that Jewish Temple that was there before the current Muslim mosque had a room the Jews called "the Holy of Holies." It is said that it held the Ark of the Covenant (which was the focus in the movie "Raiders of The Lost Ark.") The Jews believed that the room was the dwelling place of the Divine Presence. (God,)

The Jews also believed that the room could be entered only by the highest priest on The Day of Atonement and that anyone else entering would be struck dead.

This is the area (E. Jerusalem) that Israel took as spoils of war in the Six Day War in 1967.

[NeverSure]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...
A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You all just waste a lot of bandwith arguing but if you havent been here then dont bother cause what u see from a safe seat isnt what u see ringside or in the middle of it. And I pity the gazaians but they are stuckin a rut of violence suckled at the breast snd including 4 yr olds in summer camp for learning jihad skills and cynical use if family houses for weapon storage and missile launchers...and they have no choice but to cooperate...or suffer...

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

So all this talk looks great on paper but when youre in it...perspective changes....lots of far off booms but no red alerts in our sector so I guess we'll see the mondial in peace and quiet

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I'm sorry if I sound arrogant. The current events and history interest me.

I hope you stay safe and I agree you are surrounded by crazy people.

[JohnnyJazz]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

[JohnnyJazz]

So all this talk looks great on paper but when youre in it...perspective changes....lots of far off booms but no red alerts in our sector so I guess we'll see the mondial in peace and quiet

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Pralaad]

-snip-

Once peace is signed and they have proven to have full control of their people and genuinely want to live in peace side by side, they can return back and ask for East Jerusalem to be their capital,

But keep in mind, they need to prove they can live in peace and control the borders.

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

The same can be said about some of the Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem and elsewhere.

Some definitely lack solid archeological and historical support to this popular accepted status, and yet they are deemed

to be holy.

Apart from the Temple Mount (and as it stands, actually just the Wailing Wall), other sites (especially supposed graves etc.),

are not really "holy" as far as Jewish religion goes. It has more to do with Jewish tradition and modern concepts of Judaism.

This can lead to a fascinating discussion of how Judaism evolved and which influences shaped it, but would probably be way

off topic.

The main point is that regardless of past formulations, Jerusalem and the mosques in question are presently considered to

be holy by most Muslims. Now, it is possible to try and prove that it wasn't always the case or that it was never the case or

that whatever - question is if such an endeavor is likely to get anywhere and if attempting it is indeed the best course of

action. I find it doubtful one would succeed in convincing the Muslim world to see it this way, when it is almost impossible to

reach an understanding on an internet forum...

Has little to do with Holy sites. Jerusalem is mentioned in Torah on every page at least once.

Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in Quran.

[Pralaad]

Yeah so the mosque is in east jerusalem and thats what muslims want.

Not only that but, arabs also lay their claim based on ancient prophets holy to all the three religion. So to say muslims do not have equal importance is wrong, it would be better to say jews,muslims and Christians have equal importance on their claim.

We can debate this endlessly, please provide evidence of Jerusalem being so important to Arabs?

Do they prey facing it? NO

Is it mentioned in Quran? NO

Is it respected? NO

It is the 3 city of so called importance, so not exactly the most important, is it?!

The Muslims originally prayed toward Jerusalem but changed to Mecca.

Yes it is mentioned in the Quran. It is also mentioned prominently in the Old Testament which the Muslims also have.

It is definitely respected and has a major Muslim temple on the original temple site in E. Jerusalem.

What in the world do you think all of the fighting is about? Neither the Jews nor the Muslims believe they can worship properly without access to that site.

It is not mentioned in Quran, but feel free to post links to it

See Post # 53 above. I thought everyone knew that.

It is definitely NOT resepected as all the riots and destruction's are in East Jerusalem.

The riots and destruction aren't at the holy Temple Mount which has an important Muslim temple on it.

As already stated it is 3rd site, mecca and medina are in the first 2 places, so most certainly not the priority

You don't think considering how it's mentioned in the Quran, and how it was originally what Muslims faced when praying, that it's important? Not even the Muslim Temple on the ancient Temple Site? Why do you think the Muslims even built the temple they prayed towards, on the site of the original Jewish temple while the Israelis were run off the land?

I do not know what all the fighting is about, why do not you tell me what all the fighting is about?

I just told you.

Lets try again, post any evidence that Jerusalem is mentioned in Quran?

Not the temple but the word Jerusalem

So if the riots are not near the temple its ok to destroy Jerusalem? so much for holiness and importance

When someone preys back to so called holy city, NO i do not consider it being important.

And no, you did not tell me anything, just posted regurgitated garble.