Israel, Hamas on collision course as clashes escalate

[Pralaad]

Special for Pakboong and simple1,

Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

[Pralaad]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

Following your theory, you along with the rest of expats should be thrown out of Thailand, just as all migrants should be sent back home from all over the world because they are displacing locals

[johna]

The true Gaza back-story that the Israelis aren’t telling this week

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-true-gaza-backstory-that-the-israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

[simple1]

Special for Pakboong and simple1,

Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

What's this incident got to do with me? If you are trying to infer I support Islamic terrorist groups, or for that matter any terrorist group you are wrong

[Ulysses G.]

The true Gaza back-story that the Israelis aren’t telling this week

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-true-gaza-backstory-that-the-israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

Rather one sided propaganda. He forgot to mention how the Palestinians ended up "cooped up in refugee camps" due to their own hatred and obstinance. However, the story of the village called Huj, sounds like a sad one, but sad things happen during wars on both sides.

If he was interested in being balanced, he might have thrown in the story of the Jewish families murdered by Palestinians in the Hebron massacre and a lot of other similar true stories.

[NeverSure]

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

The same can be said about some of the Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem and elsewhere.

Some definitely lack solid archeological and historical support to this popular accepted status, and yet they are deemed

to be holy.

Apart from the Temple Mount (and as it stands, actually just the Wailing Wall), other sites (especially supposed graves etc.),

are not really "holy" as far as Jewish religion goes. It has more to do with Jewish tradition and modern concepts of Judaism.

This can lead to a fascinating discussion of how Judaism evolved and which influences shaped it, but would probably be way

off topic.

The main point is that regardless of past formulations, Jerusalem and the mosques in question are presently considered to

be holy by most Muslims. Now, it is possible to try and prove that it wasn't always the case or that it was never the case or

that whatever - question is if such an endeavor is likely to get anywhere and if attempting it is indeed the best course of

action. I find it doubtful one would succeed in convincing the Muslim world to see it this way, when it is almost impossible to

reach an understanding on an internet forum...

Has little to do with Holy sites. Jerusalem is mentioned in Torah on every page at least once.

Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in Quran.

I just showed you that the Temple Mount is. It's in E. Jerusalem. Jerusalem wouldn't be important if it weren't for specific sites.

[JohnnyJazz]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

Following your theory, you along with the rest of expats should be thrown out of Thailand, just as all migrants should be sent back home from all over the world because they are displacing locals

Your comment is absurd.

How can you compare an invited guest and someone who use force to move in someone else house and kick the legitimate owner out.

I am here because I've been invited by the lawful inhabitants of this country. The place where I live has been freely let to me by the legitimate owner. Can you understand the difference ?

[Ulysses G.]

Your comment is absurd.

You've got it completely backwards. The Jews were there first and some had never left. The Arabs were the ones that used force to kick the Jews off land that they had bought legally and legitimately. That is how the conflict started and the Jews were forced into fighting back. We all know what happened after that.

[simple1]

The true Gaza back-story that the Israelis aren’t telling this week

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-true-gaza-backstory-that-the-israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

Rather one sided propaganda. He forgot to mention how the Palestinians ended up "cooped up in refugee camps" due to their own hatred and obstinance. However, the story of the village called Huj, sounds like a sad one, but sad things happen during wars on both sides.

If he was interested in being balanced, he might have thrown in the story of the Jewish families murdered by Palestinians in the Hebron massacre and a lot of other similar true stories.

For 'balance' Fisk would have needed pages upon pages covering tit for tat killings and expulsions. Continuously it’s presented as 'pragmatic' for the Palestinians to accept Israeli proposals that could be considered fair if you're the Israeli government. Maybe at some time the Palestinians will accept their losses, but highly contentious issues are at play and covered in the example URL provided below; from which a quote concerning the Palestinian exodus 1947 – 1948 of around 700,000 people

“At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations." To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return#1948_Palestinian_exodus

[JohnnyJazz]

Your comment is absurd.

You've got it completely backwards. The Jews were there first and some had never left. The Arabs were the ones that used force to kick the Jews off land that they had bought legally and legitimately. That is how the conflict started and the Jews were forced into fighting back. We all know what happened after that.

The jews were there first, based on what account ? How can people born in Buenos Aires, New York, Warsaw or Paris can legitimately claim the ownership of a land that have been Arab land for thousands years ? The people that are kicked out were born there, their parents were born there, their grand parents were born there, their great grand parents were born there .... How far should we go ?

The problem is you mix up history and mythology. All your claims are based on a book that also claim that the world was created 6,000 years ago.

[Ulysses G.]

As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases

Talking about false propaganda. I know that you are well aware that Wikipedia content can be altered by almost anyone and that it is never taken seriously. Arabs telling the Palestinians to leave their homes and the area so the Jews could be "slaughtered more easily" were FAR more than 5% and, if it was not off topic I would do the research to prove it.

[Pakboong]

Special for Pakboong and simple1,

Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

“Israel under renewed Hamas attack”. Some 100 underground rocket launchers and 10 attack tunnels were among the targets.

Three homes in Gaza used by Hamas as command and control centers for enabling rocket fire were also among the targets. JP

The homes belonged to Hamas members Muhammad Sba’at, a senior member its rocket-launching formations in Beit Hanun on the northeast edge of the Strip, who was involved in several recent attacks; Amin Ibrahim al-Alba’an, a Hamas member; and Abu Jarad, a Hamas member from northern Gaza who has been engaged in terrorism against Israel. JP

Yes, somebody claims that Syrian made 302 long range rockets were fired at Dimona and Tel Aviv. The chance of actually hitting either is next to zero but even if they could it would not be a bad play.

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

The first day of the reprisal, 6 Hamas members were killed in one of the many tunnels. It always seems that the Israelis respond to rocket attack with known targets.

Funny to me is that I am arguing that the Israelis are light years more intelligent than the Palestinians and the pro Israeli posters are arguing that they aren't. What is wrong with that? Is being the victim here so important that the arguments get that far off track. We are talking 180 here.

[Ulysses G.]

Your comment is absurd.

You've got it completely backwards. The Jews were there first and some had never left. The Arabs were the ones that used force to kick the Jews off land that they had bought legally and legitimately. That is how the conflict started and the Jews were forced into fighting back. We all know what happened after that.

The jews were there first, based on what account ?

You need to study some actual history, before making ignorant comments.

The Jewish people have had a well-documented, unbroken presence in Israel for well over 3,000 years, beginning in the 2nd millennium B.C.E., and continuing through a long series of Jewish kingdoms and foreign rulers, all the way through to the modern State of Israel. Conquerors, diplomats, pilgrims and visitors throughout the millennia have left tons of references to the Jewish communities living there. Israel is filled with archaeological and historical sites, which testify to Jewish life over the centuries. Even the Muslim Quran refers to the Jewish people as the Children of Israel.

As to the Palestinians, they lived there too - although they came much later. However, most of them arrived after 1900 as illegal immigrants, just like the big influx of Jews from Europe caused by WWII.

[Ulysses G.]

Funny to me is that I am arguing that the Israelis are light years more intelligent than the Palestinians and the pro Israeli posters are arguing that they aren't.

Who is arguing that? I don't agree with you about much on this issue, but I certainly agree with that specific sentiment.

[NeverSure]

Your comment is absurd.

You've got it completely backwards. The Jews were there first and some had never left. The Arabs were the ones that used force to kick the Jews off land that they had bought legally and legitimately. That is how the conflict started and the Jews were forced into fighting back. We all know what happened after that.

The jews were there first, based on what account ? How can people born in Buenos Aires, New York, Warsaw or Paris can legitimately claim the ownership of a land that have been Arab land for thousands years ? The people that are kicked out were born there, their parents were born there, their grand parents were born there, their great grand parents were born there .... How far should we go ?

The problem is you mix up history and mythology. All your claims are based on a book that also claim that the world was created 6,000 years ago.

The Jews were given that land by international decree after WWII. You don't need to go back any farther than that.

I don't know of any book that says for a fact the world was created 6,000 years ago. Please tell me what that might be and give me that quote.

[Pakboong]

Funny to me is that I am arguing that the Israelis are light years more intelligent than the Palestinians and the pro Israeli posters are arguing that they aren't.

Who is arguing that? I don't agree with you about much on this issue, but I certainly agree with that specific sentiment.

The trick to me at least, is to get all your opponents chips without letting the world know that you have tricked him into firing blanks.

The irony here, I would do exactly what the Israelis are doing. I am not sure I would feel ashamed and not want anyone to know but I do understand why the Israelis make the plays that they do. But, I can't say enough times is that if I was in their shoes, I would do exactly the same thing.

[Morch]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

Israelis live there because this is their country. Deal with it. It's not going to change - not because of rants on the net and not because of rockets and terrorist attacks.

Most Israelis were born in Israel, yes. Many who immigrated to Israel (in earlier days) were indeed persecuted in their own country. In many cases their lives were in danger. Immigrants came not just from Europe, but also from Muslim countries (as a side note - to the best of my knowledge there was never an offer by Muslim countries to compensate Jews or hand back property taken from them, not to mention allowing them to return).

If your point was that you believe in making bogus assertions and that turning back the clock is a viable option, then yes - you have made it.

[Morch]

So all this talk looks great on paper but when youre in it...perspective changes....lots of far off booms but no red alerts in our sector so I guess we'll see the mondial in peace and quiet

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

That's nice - a cartoon from Tasnim News (Irani Government mouthpiece).

The well informed cartoonist somehow forgot to put rockets fired the other way, but that is probably because he too

was busy watching the world cup. I'm quite sure that if one of the rocket attacks would have resulted in a major hit

the cartoon would be much different.

This is not even good quality propaganda (or artwork, for that matter) - sure you can do better than that.

[Morch]

This is what a lot of the fighting is about.

East Jerusalem contains some of the holiest sites in the ME in the eyes of both Muslims and Jews. There is no hope that Israel will give it up. There is little hope that the Muslims will quit trying to get it.

"E. Jerusalem contains Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre." LINK

There is now a Muslim temple on the temple site, and Jews and Christians believe it is the site of the Biblical temple where so many important events are said to have happened. Understanding that most Jews never accepted that Christ was the Messiah prophesied in their Old Testament, but many did and split off into Christianity, It is easy to see why Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that this is one of their holiest sites.

One way or the other, Muslims, Jews and Christians all have the Old Testament in their religion, and this is the site of many sentinel events. (Muslims believe the Old Testament was tampered with and trust the Qur'an more.) All have E. Jerusalem and at least the temple site as holy and necessary.

Truth is Jerusalem has little meaning to Arabs from religious point of you, they prey facing Mecca, not only that Jerusalem is not directly mentioned by name in the Qur'an nor is it mentioned by its Arabic translation.

so its more of a point maker for Pals instead of its being a real meaning.

The same can be said about some of the Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem and elsewhere.

Some definitely lack solid archeological and historical support to this popular accepted status, and yet they are deemed

to be holy.

Apart from the Temple Mount (and as it stands, actually just the Wailing Wall), other sites (especially supposed graves etc.),

are not really "holy" as far as Jewish religion goes. It has more to do with Jewish tradition and modern concepts of Judaism.

This can lead to a fascinating discussion of how Judaism evolved and which influences shaped it, but would probably be way

off topic.

The main point is that regardless of past formulations, Jerusalem and the mosques in question are presently considered to

be holy by most Muslims. Now, it is possible to try and prove that it wasn't always the case or that it was never the case or

that whatever - question is if such an endeavor is likely to get anywhere and if attempting it is indeed the best course of

action. I find it doubtful one would succeed in convincing the Muslim world to see it this way, when it is almost impossible to

reach an understanding on an internet forum...

Has little to do with Holy sites. Jerusalem is mentioned in Torah on every page at least once.

Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in Quran.

It doesn't matter how many times Jerusalem is mentioned in which holy book. What does matter is that nowadays (and for centuries, if not more) it is considered by most Muslims as holy.

Getting "proof" that it wasn't that important in the past does not matter one bit. Interesting on a historical, theological level, not very relevant to present day political mess.

[Morch]

The true Gaza back-story that the Israelis aren’t telling this week

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-true-gaza-backstory-that-the-israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

Oh, a Fisk piece, how surprising.

How will a future Palestinian state which includes the Gaza Strip be surrounded by Israel - there's a border with Egypt and sea access. Security arrangements along the eastern border have not been decided and will be dealt with under future agreements.

The Israeli PM did say something along these lines. It was not a first time these things were said and wouldn't be the last. Like most talk outside the negotiation room, they are mostly posturing. There are quite a few formulations of how this can work in practice, and again - not even coming close to being a major issue as far troublesome problems go.

Netanyau is scaremongering, yes. That's nothing new. But the issue of keeping Israeli military presence along the eastern border predates ISIS by a long mile. It was brought up in almost any negotiation talks relevant to this topic, and by previous Israeli PMs and representatives.

The assertion that "The truth, of course, is that the Israeli air force would have crushed Isis the moment it dared to cross the Jordanian border from Iraq or Syria" - is, pretty much like an "argument" made earlier by another poster. Namely, Israel is omnipotent, and therefore any worries regarding its security may be discarded. The real truth is that a border cannot be protected solely by air power, and that for obvious reasons, there are trust issues with the Palestinian on this particular score.

Netanyahu is indeed stalling at every opportunity when it comes to the peace process. That said, the Palestinians sure do their best to give him reasons to justify it. Israel's position is that it will not deal with Hamas or any form of Palestinian government which incorporated the Hamas. The way out of this, from the Israeli point of view, is either a clear declaration from joint Hamas leadership advocating a peaceful approach followed by actual deeds to reflect that. Saying that Israel uses the Palestinian unification process as an excuse is right to a degree, but when one of the partners keep on saying they will not stop their armed struggle, it is quite difficult to know who you're supposed to deal with.

As for the village story. Yes, it is a tragedy. And yes, Fisk could have chosen as an example the village of Najd instead as , but that would lack some of the human drama associated with Huj.

Bottom line - scaremongering Fisk calls out scaremongering Netanyahu. The victims are them pesky details.

EDIT - too make things a wee bit clearer. Huj was around since 1820 or so, and was a creation of the Ottoman empire. Free land was offered as means to encourage migration from Gaza.

[Morch]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

Following your theory, you along with the rest of expats should be thrown out of Thailand, just as all migrants should be sent back home from all over the world because they are displacing locals

Your comment is absurd.

How can you compare an invited guest and someone who use force to move in someone else house and kick the legitimate owner out.

I am here because I've been invited by the lawful inhabitants of this country. The place where I live has been freely let to me by the legitimate owner. Can you understand the difference ?

So does this principle apply everywhere around the globe? USA? Latin and South America? South Africa? India? Australia? The list goes on. There's usually no turning back of time and not much realistic possibility of restoring the past. Clinging on to this notion is one of the reasons this conflict goes nowhere.

While focusing on this point - would the above apply to Jews formerly living in Muslim countries? So far there was some reluctance to discuss (or even to acknowledge) this issue. Not that keen on "Right of Return" when it goes the other way, it would seem.

[simple1]

As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases

Talking about false propaganda. I know that you are well aware that Wikipedia content can be altered by almost anyone and that it is never taken seriously. Arabs telling the Palestinians to leave their homes and the area so the Jews could be "slaughtered more easily" were FAR more than 5% and, if it was not off topic I would do the research to prove it.

When you have the time claimed to be quoted from:

A report from the military intelligence SHAI of the Haganah entitled "The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948", dated 30 June 1948.

[Johpa]

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

Not a real threat?!? You have clearly never been under the arc of a rocket or mortar, hearing the low thump of the launch and then counting to ten while your sphincter increasingly tightens, only to get down on your knees and thank Baby Jesus when you hear the sound of an explosion further away from your person, no longer concerned that it might have landed upon someone else. These weapons may not be sophisticated nor accurate, but rest assured that if by some chance they fall close to your person that they can cause significant harm and destruction. You also imply that Israeli intelligence is omniscient. It is good, but not that good.

[Morch]

Your comment is absurd.

You've got it completely backwards. The Jews were there first and some had never left. The Arabs were the ones that used force to kick the Jews off land that they had bought legally and legitimately. That is how the conflict started and the Jews were forced into fighting back. We all know what happened after that.

A bit at a loss as to which Arabs you think kicked of which Jews from which specific place and at when all this happened.

Realizing that a full account of history, with both narratives to be included is well beyond the scope of this topic - but, really

can you give an example which is relevant and germane to the issue at hand?

The conflict starting over Jews buying land and the Arabs (the Palestinians, perhaps?) kicking them off? Like...this was all

some real estate deal gone wrong?

[Morch]

As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases

Talking about false propaganda. I know that you are well aware that Wikipedia content can be altered by almost anyone and that it is never taken seriously. Arabs telling the Palestinians to leave their homes and the area so the Jews could be "slaughtered more easily" were FAR more than 5% and, if it was not off topic I would do the research to prove it.

Go ahead and try makes false changes in that Wikipedia page. I dare you.

The myth that anyone can change whatever is just that.

As for being taken seriously - in general, the value itself is one thing, sources cited are usually solid.

[Morch]

Special for Pakboong and simple1,

Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

“Israel under renewed Hamas attack”. Some 100 underground rocket launchers and 10 attack tunnels were among the targets.

Three homes in Gaza used by Hamas as command and control centers for enabling rocket fire were also among the targets. JP

The homes belonged to Hamas members Muhammad Sba’at, a senior member its rocket-launching formations in Beit Hanun on the northeast edge of the Strip, who was involved in several recent attacks; Amin Ibrahim al-Alba’an, a Hamas member; and Abu Jarad, a Hamas member from northern Gaza who has been engaged in terrorism against Israel. JP

Yes, somebody claims that Syrian made 302 long range rockets were fired at Dimona and Tel Aviv. The chance of actually hitting either is next to zero but even if they could it would not be a bad play.

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

The first day of the reprisal, 6 Hamas members were killed in one of the many tunnels. It always seems that the Israelis respond to rocket attack with known targets.

Funny to me is that I am arguing that the Israelis are light years more intelligent than the Palestinians and the pro Israeli posters are arguing that they aren't. What is wrong with that? Is being the victim here so important that the arguments get that far off track. We are talking 180 here.

Could you possibly learn to properly quote? Not that hard and makes it so much easier to check the source.

There were rockets launched at Tel Aviv which were intercepted by an Iron Dome battery. Earlier there were rockets

that hit north of Tel Aviv. There was some debate as to which rocket was used, with the one you mentioned being a

possibility. Can't really see how that makes a huge difference.

The IDF knows where launchers are after they are activated. Otherwise they would be attacked beforehand.

They do not know where all launchers are, even if you continue to claim so.

The IDF knows of some tunnels, not all. When it does, they are destroyed.

The IDF does know a lot of the personnel involved and their locations. As this round of hostilities took time to

gather momentum, most of the higher up leadership of Hamas & Co. dug in. Those attacked now are more of

the "operational" level, which have to stay relatively exposed. Any attack on a residential building is preceded

by a warning, well over and beyond what is called for by international law.

Attacking rocket storage sites was acknowledged as a problematic issues as many are now situated near or

under hospitals, schools and local media/NGO headquarters.

Keeping on portraying the IDF as an super-human army with unlimited capabilities may fit in your "argument".

It does not confirm with reality. This is not about playing victim, this is about sticking to facts.

[Pakboong]

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

Not a real threat?!? You have clearly never been under the arc of a rocket or mortar, hearing the low thump of the launch and then counting to ten while your sphincter increasingly tightens, only to get down on your knees and thank Baby Jesus when you hear the sound of an explosion further away from your person, no longer concerned that it might have landed upon someone else. These weapons may not be sophisticated nor accurate, but rest assured that if by some chance they fall close to your person that they can cause significant harm and destruction. You also imply that Israeli intelligence is omniscient. It is good, but not that good.

I have not been in that particular situation but I am retired military and have had my time in the bunker. The point is, you have to play the hand you are dealt. We all have to face things we don't like or are afraid of. Last weekend for example, 80 some people were shot in Chicago. It is hard to say that they live in less danger than those living in rural Israel. Those Israelis that live under that threat can pack up and move. They have to gauge that for them selves. Absolute safety does not exist and it is not an achievable goal for any reasonable world leader.

How can a country be terrorized on a weekly basis and only lose one citizen in 2 years and 13 in 12 years. If you add the numbers from Cast Lead, the total jumps up to 50 something. These are either the most incompetent terrorists in the world or the game is rigged. It is hard to imagine that anybody can be that incompetent. Clearly Bibi has calculated the downside and can live with losing a few for the greater good. He has much bigger problems to deal with than the occasional rocket casualty.

The apparent need to lean rather heavily on the victim card here when Bibi has everything under complete control is something I am very interested in. Is that a part of the culture? It seems to be a very common issue in this particular subject.

[Pralaad]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

Following your theory, you along with the rest of expats should be thrown out of Thailand, just as all migrants should be sent back home from all over the world because they are displacing locals

Your comment is absurd.

How can you compare an invited guest and someone who use force to move in someone else house and kick the legitimate owner out.

I am here because I've been invited by the lawful inhabitants of this country. The place where I live has been freely let to me by the legitimate owner. Can you understand the difference ?

Invited guests??

May be I missed it but since when migrants or expats were invited ?

My neighbors did not invite me, my staff did not invite me, Thai government did not invite me.

They all simply tolerate me

[Pakboong]

Special for Pakboong and simple1,

Hamas: We attempted to hit the nuclear reactor in Dimona http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

“Israel under renewed Hamas attack”. Some 100 underground rocket launchers and 10 attack tunnels were among the targets.

Three homes in Gaza used by Hamas as command and control centers for enabling rocket fire were also among the targets. JP

The homes belonged to Hamas members Muhammad Sba’at, a senior member its rocket-launching formations in Beit Hanun on the northeast edge of the Strip, who was involved in several recent attacks; Amin Ibrahim al-Alba’an, a Hamas member; and Abu Jarad, a Hamas member from northern Gaza who has been engaged in terrorism against Israel. JP

Yes, somebody claims that Syrian made 302 long range rockets were fired at Dimona and Tel Aviv. The chance of actually hitting either is next to zero but even if they could it would not be a bad play.

I posted the quotes above from the JP.. Clearly the Israelis know from where the rockets are launched and where the homes of who they blame are. they also know the names of individuals that they want to target. They also know about the smuggler tunnels. They keep a big board with predetermined targets for these types of situations. They know what is going to happen and they handle it by going in after the rockets and bomb all the launch sites. Of course they could go in before the rockets are launched but they don't want to sound like the aggressor. The result is the same. They know the rockets are not a real threat.

The first day of the reprisal, 6 Hamas members were killed in one of the many tunnels. It always seems that the Israelis respond to rocket attack with known targets.

Funny to me is that I am arguing that the Israelis are light years more intelligent than the Palestinians and the pro Israeli posters are arguing that they aren't. What is wrong with that? Is being the victim here so important that the arguments get that far off track. We are talking 180 here.

Could you possibly learn to properly quote? Not that hard and makes it so much easier to check the source.

There were rockets launched at Tel Aviv which were intercepted by an Iron Dome battery. Earlier there were rockets

that hit north of Tel Aviv. There was some debate as to which rocket was used, with the one you mentioned being a

possibility. Can't really see how that makes a huge difference.

The IDF knows where launchers are after they are activated. Otherwise they would be attacked beforehand.

They do not know where all launchers are, even if you continue to claim so.

The IDF knows of some tunnels, not all. When it does, they are destroyed.

The IDF does know a lot of the personnel involved and their locations. As this round of hostilities took time to

gather momentum, most of the higher up leadership of Hamas & Co. dug in. Those attacked now are more of

the "operational" level, which have to stay relatively exposed. Any attack on a residential building is preceded

by a warning, well over and beyond what is called for by international law.

Attacking rocket storage sites was acknowledged as a problematic issues as many are now situated near or

under hospitals, schools and local media/NGO headquarters.

Keeping on portraying the IDF as an super-human army with unlimited capabilities may fit in your "argument".

It does not confirm with reality. This is not about playing victim, this is about sticking to facts.

The JP at the end of parts refers to Jerusalem Post. I took those from my notes that I take as I read everyday. I do not normally take the quotes from the various sources to repost on a forum. I did that today because i was in a hurry. You do have the option to ignore my posts and I won't be offended if you do. I do however enjoy discourse and from me on this subjuct, you are going to get discourse.

I would guess that you would consider the JP a reliable source. I do not feel like playing the source game. I did not use Press TV even though I often consider their reporting more accurate.

jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Rocket-alert-sirens-sound-in-Zichron-Yaakov-120-km-north-of-Gaza-362087

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Syrian-made-M302-rocket-fired-by-Hamas-at-Hadera-362008

Above are the two articles from which the comments were cut and pasted. I hope they are Kosher enough for you. Can I be of further assistance?

[JohnnyJazz]

Cant believe the arrogance if some here. A house was bliwn up near us yesterday. We got to the shelter in time but we are in a minute nd half area. The arab villages near us likewise spent the past few nights in their house bomb shelters (they have newer houses then us.we have to run or duck)...

A iron cap just got moved near us. Horay. We have five kibbutz families including visitors from overseas that werent able to have our kibbutz group bar mitzva tonite since we can't have large group of people in open area. Tons of scared tourist groups cancelled hotel orders. My son just got called up to emergency army reserve duty in middle of dinner. Wait! Several booms just now -iron cap sounds. But no red alert. Actual hits r not reported in news only general falls..at least until time has passed. And several army hits in gaza were stopped at last minute because children were in the house being targeted...this is from reports from boys from my kibbutz etc that are in regular service. Not news reports.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You are right we are not there. But you are there. Why are you there ? You were born there ? Were you persecuted when you left your home country ? Were you life in danger ?

The land where you kibbutz is built, how did you get it ? You bought it from the people who were living there before ?

You feel bad you couldn't have a party last night. And what about the people who were displaced to make room for the European settlers, did they have a party last night ?

I guess you get my point.

Israelis live there because this is their country. Deal with it. It's not going to change - not because of rants on the net and not because of rockets and terrorist attacks.

Most Israelis were born in Israel, yes. Many who immigrated to Israel (in earlier days) were indeed persecuted in their own country. In many cases their lives were in danger. Immigrants came not just from Europe, but also from Muslim countries (as a side note - to the best of my knowledge there was never an offer by Muslim countries to compensate Jews or hand back property taken from them, not to mention allowing them to return).

If your point was that you believe in making bogus assertions and that turning back the clock is a viable option, then yes - you have made it.

You assume a lot my dear friend. I don't make any assumption, bogus or not, it's you who make them when you reply a post without knowing the background of the question.

Anyway for your information here are some details about the demographic of Israel, I let you think about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Can we consider that the million of jews who came from Morocco/Algeria/Tunisia were persecuted in their country of origin ? And what of those from Russia ? Half of them are not even Jewish but criminals that the Russians were more than happy to let go, a bit like Castro who emptied his jails in Florida.

Anyway, the goal of most reasonable people is not to turn back the clock but to stop the expansion of the illegal settlements. That would be good enough for a start.