Newbie With Age Old Question

[MacMac]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this site and I would value you opinion on the best way of making a career from teaching in Thailand

I’m 33 years old and have spent some time in Thailand over the past six years. I’ve been a Divemaster and have run a restaurant and bungalows for a friend so I’m not just a fresh face kid. Actually I wish I was, then time wouldn’t be a problem. I’m also learning to speak, read and write Thai. I have now decided to pursue a teaching career and would like your comments on the best way to do this. I am currently doing on online TEFL Diploma with I-to-I. I’m only doing this to get a feel for TEFL. I’ve read the debates on the pros and cons of online courses and I intend to do a CELTA at a later date.

So guys, what do I do? Ideally I would do a 4 year BA in Primary Education then 1 year in full time employment before heading over to Thailand but I’m not sure I could handle another 5 years in sunny Scotland and as I said I’m 33.

The quickest option is an Open University degree. I’ve just been informed by the Open University that my HNC in Computing counts for 1 year of study in an ‘open’ degree. If I use the remainder of the degree to study English I could have a degree heavily weighted towards English related subjects in 2 years. Would I stand a chance of getting into an International school following the British curriculum with this degree? After a few years of teaching I would consider returning to Scotland to do a Postgraduate in Primary Education. I know I could go over there without a degree and work but I don’t want to do that.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated I hope your replies help those in a similar position.

[mbkudu]

I'm in a similar situation and I think your plan is sound. The only difference for me is that I'm doing my degree here in Thailand. Everybody knows teaching in Thailand without a degree is possible and widespread, but there isn't a solid future without one. If you want to go to other countries to earn more, a degree will also benefit.

By the way, I'm 39, so you've got a few years on me. There are a couple guys my age I study with and one guy in his late 40s, so no problem about age here.

Edited June 28, 2006 by mbkudu

[Eastender]

I was recently told that British degrees are among the best in the world, and the British OU degrees were the best regarded 'distance learning' degrees. Of course whether the Thais are aware of this I don't know. However, you will still be presenting them with a real degree certificate and transcript.

I'm in a similar position, have an HNC in electronics but would like a degree to enable me to teach English in Thailand. Are you sure I can study OU in English for 2 years to get a full degree? I already have a year and a half teaching experience and TEFL certificate.

[mbkudu]

xxxxxxxxxx

Edited July 4, 2006 by mbkudu

[mbkudu]

There is no doubt in my mind that a British degree, and probably an American, European or Australian degree, is good and grand, but I can't and won't live with a $US 50,000 student loan debt after graduation. I'll be debt free after graduation here. I'm being realistic however, an understand that this degree probably won't land me a full expat package in a Frotune 500 company here. You get what you put into it.

Edited July 4, 2006 by mbkudu

[kenkannif]

^ I don't know mate a foreign company might prefer a Thai based degree...if you're going to work in Thailand or Asia!

Down to the person, not the bit of paper....one of the cleverest blokes I knew.....couldn't really survive in the real world and had zero common sense.

[Big Guns]

You can teach in Thailand with a degree and a TEFL certificate. However, this basically qualifies you to teach English at state and private schools. Some international schools also employ TEFL teachers. I know there probably a lot of good TEFL teachers out there but I wouldn't say that you can have much of a career in Thailand. Your status and salary will be fairly poor and you will have little chance of career progression.

The other option is to teach a specific subject at an international school. This isn't a quick fix solution as you will need a degree in a particular subject, a PGCE and a couple of years teaching experience in the UK.

If you want to have a jolly for a few years in Thailand then the first option is ok. However if you are really serious about a career as a professional teacher then you will have to go for the second option.

[Loaded]

Do you have to go to the UK at all to complete the OU degree?

[kenkannif]

^ I think you're supposed to mate, but if you PM Desert Exile on the other board he can tell you a way around it I think ;

[Ladphrao]

MacMac

Since you are relatively young, and plan to make a career in teaching, think about your ultimate goal to be beyond teaching ESL. ESL teaching is OK, but there are a growing number of international programs at uni and HSs where other subjects are taught in English. Teaching other subjects (especially at a uni) might be more appealing than teaching the past tense to first graders when you get a few years older. If you embark on a life-long learning-education program there really are quite a few opportunities. Getting the basic qualifications to teach English is fine if you just want to bum around for a few years or as a second career, but teaching ESL for 30 years plus seems like a pretty tough career choice.

Cheers

[Eastender]

Ladpraoh, what soi are you on. I used to live on 122, soi Mahadthai.

Anyway, the original post has sparked me off and I'm now looking into using my British HNC to get a full degree with the OU. Thanks (although I think I've still got a full 3 years of study ahead).

[MacMac]

Thanks very much everyone for your information and encouragement. I’ve now accept that I will be in Scotland for a while if I want a career in teaching. I’ve decided to study for an Open University ‘open degree’ with a view to eventually becoming a Primary school teacher.

Sorry it took me so long to reply but I was gathering as much info as I could before posting. I’ve contacted the local Universities and the Open University and here is what I’ve found out.

It is possible to do some UK Open University subjects in Thailand but it is expensive and I am afraid there aren’t many. If you are a resident in the UK it will cost you about £525 per course. The same course will cost you £1250 outside of the UK.

Here is a link to subjects you can study outside of the Europe.

http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/about/p7.shtml

To get into a PGDE in Primary Education you need a Hons degree, preferably in a core curriculum subject i.e. English, Mathematics or Science. Alternatively you could do an Open degree and choose units from one of the core curriculum subjects and other relevant subjects such as Child Development. If you live in England or Wales there are more subjects available such as Supporting Learning in Primary Schools, but these education related subjects must be done while you are working or volunteering at a school with a British school curriculum.

Ok this is how it all breaks down for those who are interested in taking the Open University path.

To gain an Hons degree you need 360 points. This breaks down to 120 points at level 1, 120 points at level 2 and 120 points at level 3. An HNC counts for 120 points at level 1. Most courses at levels 2 and 3 are worth 60 points each. This takes about 16 hours of study time a week. So if you have an HNC it is possible to get the 240 points needed for the honours degree in two years but that means 32 hours of study a week. The maximum you are allowed to study is 120 points in a 12 month period.

If you want to teach secondary education it is the same but obviously you need to do the degree in the subject you want to teach.

They also recommended that you do voluntary work with kids either at the local schools or extra curriculum actives such as coaching football. Most of you are teaching at the moment so that will strengthen your application. The problem is that the PGDE in Primary Education is so popular now and there is no ‘best’ way to gain entry. One Uni I contacted said they had 110 places available this year and had over 700 applicants.

So if you pass the PGDE then you are classed as an NQT (Newly Qualified Teacher). After a year in teaching you gain QTS (Qualified Teacher Status). With two years of teaching experience you are then ready to start applying for the 100,000+ baht a month jobs at the top international schools.

So that is the course I am going to take. It looks like I have a lot of study and exams ahead of me. Good luck to anyone who is taking a similar course. And thanks again for all your help and advice.

[DrFisher]

I will point one thing out to you if you are or plan on working for the Thai government make sure that your degrees are real (not purchased on the internet) because they do check and request transcripts as well as a background check from INTREPOL and your country (through your embassy). So, be careful with on-line courses make sure they are accredited.

[Ijustwannateach]

Nonsense. The government has been doing everything it can to cover up its own lack of resources and competence in this matter, to point of laying the responsibility for degree checking on schools (as if they should have the resources to check). I've met several people whose degrees were probably dodgy, and worked at one school where an incompetent DOS was finally ejected because of investigative efforts re. his degree by his own staff. Your information is so off-base that it seems unlikely you believe it yourself.

[PeaceBlondie]

Perhaps Dr. Fisher is talking about a fine university like CMU, where one can't just walk in and claim to have a doctor's degree. But down the street or over in Saraphi, they ain't checking nobody for nothing much.

I worked for two schools in "the Thai government" for almost two years. They didn't check much of my real credentials, and even less of the credentials of other farang teachers. But that was before the bureaucrats of the Ministry of Education decided they couldn't possibly check credentials, so they simply decreed that employing schools have to check them. 90% of the schools can't check credentials because they're too uninformed or.....unenergetic.

[DrFisher]

Again I don't know why everyone is being so defensive, I’m not trying to hurt anyone’s feelings. When I applied for my job I had to fill out a form and get a criminal report from the US embassy as well as transcripts faxed from my university they would not accept the ones I had with me. I also had to get a government official to sign for me stating if I did anything wrong he would be responsible for my actions and pay the damages if I did not.

Other than that I have been electronically finger printed and taken to the labor department and immigration so many times I don’t even want to talk about it. Things are changing here and quickly (well quickly for Thai) they are starting to weed out the bad ones. In any event I’m not trying to start a pissing contest with anyone I was just trying to give some helpful advice.

[Ijustwannateach]

The scenario you describe seems highly unlikely. Assuming you're not just making it up [there are persons who would, just to make trouble, of course I'm sure you're not one of those], perhaps your employer has had unusually bad experiences before. I've only heard of one type of school requiring criminal reports before (a true-blue international) and never heard of anyone being fingerprinted by government agencies for the purpose of employment [though I have heard of several schools starting electronic fingerprint clock-in programs, which would solely be for in-house accounting- perhaps you misunderstood who was fingerprinting you and for what purpose?].

The multiple trips to various agencies are normal in the process of getting a Thai teacher's license, work permit, etc., and are more for paper-shuffling and fee-collecting than any sort of security or true investigation.

[kenkannif]

LoL it's getting easier Dr Fisher mate not harder.

In theory you should only need to go to Labour once, and then just Imm...although back in the day I had to have an interview at the MoE....and to be honest if you work for a 'good' school this should be minimal to say the least.

[DrFisher]

Never mind the entire point was missed, I quit you win.

[kenkannif]

Mate if we're missing it by all means explain it again.

Don't be so thin skinned...no one is having a real go at you....just disagreeing with what you're saying is all and we do that with each other quite often.

Chill mate and just enjoy the discussion you might end up learning something yourself (I know I do on here quite often).

[PeaceBlondie]

Those of us who have been reading Thai teaching forums for several years or more, had not heard of criminal reports, or visits to the embassy, or repeated visits to MoE or MoL, or fingerprinting. I'm not doubting that one leading uni in northern Thailand might do it for Ph.D. instructors, but 99% of us don't fit into that category.

Transcripts. I have no copies of my transcripts, and taught English at three schools in Lanna-land (two govt., one commercial college) and was never asked for transcripts. Even when I taught mathematics, plural. Besides, I have the dodgiest looking (real, actual authentic) transcripts in the USA; it's my uni's fault.

Fingerprints? Never. Criminal record? Never. And I never heard of anybody else teaching in Thailand needing them, either (except as kenkaniff said, for internal use). But then, we don't run with the real, upper case INTERNATIONAL school crowd, or the doctorate crowd; maybe they have to show such things. I worked with a guy for one semester, who never showed he even had one hour's attendance in a tertiary institutuion, and no TEFL cert. either, and the govt. school obviously didn't care.

Dr. Fisher, I'm glad you've joined us, and I hope you'll enjoy your stay here on this teaching forum.

[Loaded]

What are the qualifications for foreigners to teach a non-English subject in a university here in Thailand?

Is it possible to teach post grad or grad students here a subject that your only qualification to teach them is the fact you studied this subject to at least degree level at some time in the past. Scarey!!!

In the UK you need a 1 year post graduate certificate of education to teach primary school kids how to paint a picture of their mummy and daddy in front of their house. And to teach English here you need teacher training.

teachers at uni with no teaching qualifications or experience? I think us TEFLers should demand higher standards for Thai universities.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Loaded

[Ijustwannateach]

I'll back up Ken here- once again, I fail to see what point we've "missed." Any real doctor would realise that in a discussion or debate, facts must be backed up with evidence. We have disagreed with your message based on evidence and many years of experience, plus a lot of contact with our contemporaries who are currently involved in these processes. Can you name a school (other than CMU, possibly) which you're sure requires these stringent background checks?

^Loaded, it would be kind of scary if someone who is only B.A.'ed were teaching post grads, but I'm sure it happens somewhere. It is not, to my knowledge, routine, and if it happens it's probably under the table- someone doing part time work rather than full time.

[DrFisher]

I'm not sitting here writing fiction because I have nothing better to do or to amuse you I assure you. I am speaking from my own personal experience, which I think is what the original question was asking for. Have you read the papers lately about all the fraud being committed and the Thai government looses face (and if you know anything about Thai people they hate loosing face more than anything).

[DrFisher]

Not that I have anything to prove to you and I'm ashamed of myself for even bothering to post back. As far as me being a doctor goes, yeah I am, not that it means anything to you but now you know. If it's proof you seek just look me up on the Chiang Mai University web. Anything I posted on here was for information purposes only not to get into a pissing contest with you, and if this is your attitude about Thai please feel free to leave these people need help not criticism. Try being part of the solution not part of the problem for a change.

[Wolfie]

Right, this is your Public Warning on this subject,

Play nicely, be nice to each other, dont belittle thai people and dont flame other members...

!!!READ THE FORUM RULES!!!

Failure to play by the rules will result in warnings, suspensions and (ultimately) bannings. it doesnt matter if your a new member or a TV old hand, the rules apply equally.

[Ijustwannateach]

I also don't appreciate having people flame me. I work with, alongside, and for Thai people every day of the week. I'm hard on school administrators, because they largely deserve it- unlike the Thai parents and students whom they cheat and harm.

Once again, Fish, give us 10- ok, even 5- schools who will verify your claims about job hunts in Thailand. Otherwise, you're pretty much just claiming your opinion is fact, i.e. blowing hot air. Any more of that, and I'm putting you on ignore.

"Steven"

[Ladphrao]

"But mate if we're so wrong.....why not post your experiences rather than just moaning and basically saying NOTHING at all"

Fine, I have had various experiences. For the low range jobs, copies of qualifications and usually a look at the originals was normal. Other jobs, I have had to sign a letter and send it to the unis I graduated from requesting them to release my records to the unis I would be working at with nothing touching my hands. But, these were uni jobs and not in English teaching for the most part. I know there are a lot of fake degrees and so out there, but from my experience any of the "top" level jobs will probably require significant proof of qualifications. Low level ones, no problem with Khao San Road degrees or whatever, after all, one doesn't really need a degree to teach one's own language, well, at least the schools don't think so, but obviously the cert mills believe a four week wonder ESL/EFL/CFL/NFL/(whatever buzzword/Initials you want to use for English teaching) English course is required since they are in the business of promoting the idea this is required in order to sell their courses (nothing wrong with this by the way).

There are many levels of teachers here in Thailand, claiming everything is only one way only makes sense if restricting it to one level. What is required at a private kindergarten in Nakorn little town and at the International doctoral programs at Chula could be quite different

I know this will probably get me banned (again) but there are actually some pretty good international unis here in Thailand and they have to meet the same accreditation requirements as Unis in farang land.

One does not need a degree to teach German in England at a private language school and even the universities in the USA, UK, and Australia, allow teachers of foreign languages to have lower qualifications than "real" professors and lecturers. No different here. One might be able to teach English at the uni level with only a bachelors degree, but don't expect to be teaching other subjects without being qualified to teach the same subject in the USA (there are exceptions, but they are rare and the unis would rather go with a qualified USA/UK educated Thai instructor over an unqualified foreigner).

The education system in Thailand has been growing and changing at an extremely rapid pace, which also goes against the big three's view that all Thais are dumb as dog doo (but are ok for other purposes that don't require thinking) and things never change.

///edited out, per forum rules. No direct flaming is allowed, and no discussion of moderation issues. PB///

Dr F. wrote of his experience, how did you IJWT and PB Repsond? You questioned his degree and called hime a liar. Why? What did he write that makes you feel so scared?

Edited July 20, 2006 by PeaceBlondie

[kenkannif]

Good post....well most if it mate.

Please quote where I called him a liar and questioned his degree and also where I called all Thais dumb mate??? Thanks!!!

Edited July 19, 2006 by kenkannif

[Ijustwannateach]

Better just to ignore him, Ken.