Rice-pledging scheme: Nationwide checks continue to find fault with rice stocks

[webfact]

RICE-PLEDGING SCHEME
Nationwide checks continue to find fault with rice stocks
THE NATION



BANGKOK: -- INSPECTIONS reveal that the rice stocks from the controversial pledging scheme have become mired in both quality and quantity problems.

An informed source said yesterday that inspections had found that most of the rice at a warehouse in Nakhon Si Thammarat's Thung Song district was gone - after three reported fires at the facility.

A panel headed by Office of the Prime Minister inspector-general Orawan Khumsap has been checking rice stocks at warehouses in this southern province.

The same source said the inspections had revealed many warehouses had suspiciously failed to arrange rice sacks in line with requirements. Some warehouses, the source said, had used the wrong thread colour for different types of rice.

The National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) has already scrapped the rice-pledging scheme, which allegedly incurred massive losses and made a big dent in state coffers. Alleged corruption in the scheme has also provided ground for the National Anti-Corruption Commission to take action against many political-office holders.

Despite scrapping of the scheme, the NCPO has ordered the inspections at warehouses that participated in it across the country.

Inspections at a Buri Ram warehouse yesterday showed that more than 3,000 checked rice sacks at a warehouse had failed to meet export standards.

"Probably it's because rice has been stored for too long. Some has been here for more than two years," Somchai Larbrittidej said as a representative of a surveyor.

An informed source said it was now estimated that more than 10,000 among 41,349 rice sacks at the warehouse might have degradation problems.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Nationwide-checks-continue-to-find-fault-with-rice-30238155.html


-- The Nation 2014-07-10

[Robby nz]

The BKK post says that 30,000 sacks of rice in the Buri Ram warehouse were due to be exported as they had been sold at auction but on inspection only 5,000 sacks met export criteria. Would think that would be the buyers criteria, IE The quality that was specified at auction.

Despite scrapping of the scheme, the NCPO has ordered the inspections at warehouses that participated in it across the country.

Not despite scrapping the scheme, this is only part of an audit of the whole scheme to see just how much rice has gone missing, what condition the remaining rice is in and where the money has gone and of course where any responsibility lies.

Remember we were told repeatedly by the PT Govt that they could not give any accurate accounting of the scheme until it had ended.

Well now it has ended and that accounting has begun and the sad story gets worse every day.

[lostsoul49]

Yet Yingluck just 2 days ago continues to cling to the hilarious opinion that all is (and always has been) well with the rice scam, and that all accusations of missing, bad quality and spoiled rice are pure figments of the national auditors' office imagination.

She took the salary of chairperson of the rice scam and did absolutely nothing but stood by and watched (or even helped) the scheme being pilfered from end to end.

Wonder how the farmers who waited over 6 months for their money feel about the amount of money gone missing? six times more than was owed a million of those farmers.

They were not paid because all the money was STOLEN!!!!!!!!!

[lostsoul49]

The BKK post says that 30,000 sacks of rice in the Buri Ram warehouse were due to be exported as they had been sold at auction but on inspection only 5,000 sacks met export criteria. Would think that would be the buyers criteria, IE The quality that was specified at auction.

Despite scrapping of the scheme, the NCPO has ordered the inspections at warehouses that participated in it across the country.

Not despite scrapping the scheme, this is only part of an audit of the whole scheme to see just how much rice has gone missing, what condition the remaining rice is in and where the money has gone and of course where any responsibility lies.

Remember we were told repeatedly by the PT Govt that they could not give any accurate accounting of the scheme until it had ended.

Well now it has ended and that accounting has begun and the sad story gets worse every day.

You also have to consider that major rice dealers across the globe will be reading all this info on a daily basis.

Do you think they will touch Thai rice after this unless it was super-cheap... Because now Thailand has (and is daily) being revealed as a major 'high risk' to buy rice from.

I pity the poor bastard who pays world price for high grade rice and ends up with a load of crap he can't shift.

This scam has wrecked the rice export industry.

[englishoak]

The BKK post says that 30,000 sacks of rice in the Buri Ram warehouse were due to be exported as they had been sold at auction but on inspection only 5,000 sacks met export criteria. Would think that would be the buyers criteria, IE The quality that was specified at auction.

Despite scrapping of the scheme, the NCPO has ordered the inspections at warehouses that participated in it across the country.

Not despite scrapping the scheme, this is only part of an audit of the whole scheme to see just how much rice has gone missing, what condition the remaining rice is in and where the money has gone and of course where any responsibility lies.

Remember we were told repeatedly by the PT Govt that they could not give any accurate accounting of the scheme until it had ended.

Well now it has ended and that accounting has begun and the sad story gets worse every day.

You also have to consider that major rice dealers across the globe will be reading all this info on a daily basis.

Do you think they will touch Thai rice after this unless it was super-cheap... Because now Thailand has (and is daily) being revealed as a major 'high risk' to buy rice from.

I pity the poor bastard who pays world price for high grade rice and ends up with a load of crap he can't shift.

This scam has wrecked the rice export industry.

On the contrary its a boon to other rice exporting nations.

Every cloud has a silver lining, just not a Thai one atm.

[siampolee]

Those of us who critised the great rice pledging scam scheme at the time of its inception were attacked by those supporters of the Shinwatra clan and the P.T.P. as naysayers and rumour mongers who were trying to undermine the then administration.

Now is it not the time for those who spoke so well of the system to step forward and say ''sorry we were conned and you were right.''

This particular situation is but the tip of a gigantic iceberg of corruption and was designed and implementated soley as self enrichment financial scam to enrich the Shinwatra clan and its ilk..

Never have so many been shafted by so few in the whole history of Thailand and indeed the world.

The P.T.P. politicians like the rice are totally rotten and useless.

The damage done to the rice producing and sales and export industry concerning Thai rice is frightening, the long term affects are yet to be felt and seen.

Those who will bear the brunt of the aftermath of the great rice scam scheme are those rice growing farmers who in many cases have engineered their own shakey future as a result of taking the vote for me money and listening to pie crust promises from the P.T.P. politicians..

[jaidam]

Those of us who critised the great rice pledging scam scheme at the time of its inception were attacked by those supporters of the Shinwatra clan and the P.T.P. as naysayers and rumour mongers who were trying to undermine the then administration.

Now is it not the time for those who spoke so well of the system to step forward and say ''sorry we were conned and you were right.''

This particular situation is but the tip of a gigantic iceberg of corruption and was designed and implementated soley as self enrichment financial scam to enrich the Shinwatra clan and its ilk..

Never have so many been shafted by so few in the whole history of Thailand and indeed the world.

The P.T.P. politicians like the rice are totally rotten and useless.

Amen, but, we might be waiting a while for our well deserved apology. They are lickety-split jumping to the Shin's defense, but much more tardy when admitting serious errors of judgement.

[Thai at Heart]

Those of us who critised the great rice pledging scam scheme at the time of its inception were attacked by those supporters of the Shinwatra clan and the P.T.P. as naysayers and rumour mongers who were trying to undermine the then administration.

Now is it not the time for those who spoke so well of the system to step forward and say ''sorry we were conned and you were right.''

This particular situation is but the tip of a gigantic iceberg of corruption and was designed and implementated soley as self enrichment financial scam to enrich the Shinwatra clan and its ilk..

Never have so many been shafted by so few in the whole history of Thailand and indeed the world.

The P.T.P. politicians like the rice are totally rotten and useless.

The damage done to the rice producing and sales and export industry concerning Thai rice is frightening, the long term affects are yet to be felt and seen.

Those who will bear the brunt of the aftermath of the great rice scam scheme are those rice growing farmers who in many cases have engineered their own shakey future as a result of taking the vote for me money and listening to pie crust promises from the P.T.P. politicians..

This problem will shake out very quickly because it will rapidly become obvious that the cost of sifting and repackaging the old pledged stuff just isn't worth it.

The buyers will only buy new crop for export. Thats it. This fiasco is probably already finished in the eyes of international buyers. They probably only want prices for new crop.

Why would anyone bother to even waste time to look at old crop if 50% is unusable.

I bought 20kg of new crop in the UK last week. Reasonable price, good quality.

[aussieinthailand]

Yet Yingluck just 2 days ago continues to cling to the hilarious opinion that all is (and always has been) well with the rice scam, and that all accusations of missing, bad quality and spoiled rice are pure figments of the national auditors' office imagination.

She took the salary of chairperson of the rice scam and did absolutely nothing but stood by and watched (or even helped) the scheme being pilfered from end to end.

Wonder how the farmers who waited over 6 months for their money feel about the amount of money gone missing? six times more than was owed a million of those farmers.

They were not paid because all the money was STOLEN!!!!!!!!!

Any rice that was stolen, resold, removed, set fire to, or what ever, Do you really think YL had anything to do with it, "(or even helped)" if you were in her place, would you??? GET A GRIP.

now try using a little cerebral function and have a good hard look at the miller's and the rice dealers, I think you might find a few guilty ones there instead of the mind numbing drone of Yingluk, the Shin's, the PTP pile of crap.

[timewilltell]

Yet Yingluck just 2 days ago continues to cling to the hilarious opinion that all is (and always has been) well with the rice scam, and that all accusations of missing, bad quality and spoiled rice are pure figments of the national auditors' office imagination.

She took the salary of chairperson of the rice scam and did absolutely nothing but stood by and watched (or even helped) the scheme being pilfered from end to end.

Wonder how the farmers who waited over 6 months for their money feel about the amount of money gone missing? six times more than was owed a million of those farmers.

They were not paid because all the money was STOLEN!!!!!!!!!

I allegedly add that the rice may have allegedly been stolen and that Yingluck, allegedly PM and part of an allegedly political party known as the PTP, may allegedly have been part of an alleged fraud of the treasury of Thailand and possibly allegedly therefore be guilty of treason, along with alleged conspiracy, nay alleged control by her alleged brother Thaksin.

You gotta love the defamation laws!

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[ginjag]

On the contrary its a boon to other rice exporting nations.

Every cloud has a silver lining, just not a Thai one atm.

For someone who generally posts in support of the Shin Clan and the last government, this is a cheap, trite and foolish comment.

Care to prove my support of the shin clan or the last gov other than it was elected legally, I challenge you. i support democratic choice, even foolish ones here just as much as I do in my own country, thats it..

Sorry if I dont get all teary eyed and hormonal about a crap government and call out the tanks like some, ... im a little more grown up and educated than that. Id prefer they waited until next election time and boot them out the right way, yknow, like grown up civilised countries do, let the people learn the lesson the hard way and maybe just maybe they wont make the mistake over and over again... as it is they will learn nothing but continue to repeat the mistakes of lessons unlearnt.

Thailand cannot let the people learn the hard way, they cannot afford to go through another PTP government. Here lies the problem.

This is why more educated people have to step in to try to solve the problem. It's all very well talking from the democratic manual, we all can do this, but here it is not working it's obvious. All we have heard over 3 years is let the people decide, so if the government is not democratic have another election.??? from pro PTP supporters.

How do you get the people learn ?? how do you educate them into what's good and bad ??? Have elections until they learn.???

You are more educated you say and more grown up ??? You'd prefer they booted the bad government out. BUT you forgot one thing they are not as educated or as grown up as you are.

This is why the army are here to try to rectify this. They are trying, my opinion. ginjag.

[AyG]

Any rice that was stolen, resold, removed, set fire to, or what ever, Do you really think YL had anything to do with it, "(or even helped)" ...

now try using a little cerebral function and have a good hard look at the miller's and the rice dealers, I think you might find a few guilty ones there instead of the mind numbing drone of Yingluk, the Shin's, the PTP pile of crap.

You seem to be forgetting that under Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai this particular scheme was used and resulted in massive corruption.

The Democrats changed to a rice scheme which was much more transparent and less open to corruption.

Then, when Pheu Thai came in they abandon the more transparent scheme and revert to the old one which had been proven to facilitate corruption. Why would they do that if it weren't to facilitate more corruption? Did Yingluck know what she was doing? Of course she did (unless you subscribe to the theory that she's a clueless airhead and the only non-corrupt politician in her family).

[englishoak]

On the contrary its a boon to other rice exporting nations.

Every cloud has a silver lining, just not a Thai one atm.

For someone who generally posts in support of the Shin Clan and the last government, this is a cheap, trite and foolish comment.

Care to prove my support of the shin clan or the last gov other than it was elected legally, I challenge you. i support democratic choice, even foolish ones here just as much as I do in my own country, thats it..

Sorry if I dont get all teary eyed and hormonal about a crap government and call out the tanks like some, ... im a little more grown up and educated than that. Id prefer they waited until next election time and boot them out the right way, yknow, like grown up civilised countries do, let the people learn the lesson the hard way and maybe just maybe they wont make the mistake over and over again... as it is they will learn nothing but continue to repeat the mistakes of lessons unlearnt.

Thailand cannot let the people learn the hard way, they cannot afford to go through another PTP government. Here lies the problem.

This is why more educated people have to step in to try to solve the problem. It's all very well talking from the democratic manual, we all can do this, but here it is not working it's obvious. All we have heard over 3 years is let the people decide, so if the government is not democratic have another election.??? from pro PTP supporters.

How do you get the people learn ?? how do you educate them into what's good and bad ??? Have elections until they learn.???

You are more educated you say and more grown up ??? You'd prefer they booted the bad government out. BUT you forgot one thing they are not as educated or as grown up as you are.

This is why the army are here to try to rectify this. They are trying, my opinion. ginjag.

Id disagree of course gin. Yup you let the country take its natural course, financial crash ? no problem its a natural cycle, no one will starve here Thailand is blessed with agricultural fertility and the bounce back would be rapid. Let them realise education of the masses IS the only way to permanent improvement and even then there will be hurdles. So it takes time and there will be serious bumps and all manner of mistakes... so what its nothing compared to being in constant limbo.

You think that the poor cant learn simple political interest or savvy ? They soon would left to a few very bad terms im sure. Give it 30 years learning by hard knocks and it would be so much better, i do not subscribe to the fear of civil war and all that talk. A nation with the will to change WILL change, education is the measure of how serious a country takes its future im sure youd agree.

Life is about learning from mistakes and improving not bailing as soon as it gets tough going, for a nation its no different, I really, REALLY would like to see one thing overhauled from top to bottom here and thats education... everything else stems from it. Morals, honesty, integrity, drive, ambition, ability.

There are plenty of countries that have gone through this process out there, all in fact and Thailand really is no different. Not in the solution anyway, sooner or later ( looks like much later ) they will have to address the education problem. the longer the wait the more cost to the entire country in the long run.There really isnt any other option, in the meantime yes let it stumble along like all developing and fledgling countries do. Teflon Thailand would im sure surprise many.

Democracy has barely started here and every few years or so its reset... this is not how you move forwards. It just isnt, if there is no pain there really is nothing learnt and so the deferring to class and elite educated over working class educated will continue... its a cycle that just has to be broken.

it is sad there is so little faith in the next generation here or will to improve it, one of the only nations of Asia that isnt totally obsessed with education in the poor villages in fact. This is the result of intentional dumbing down, imagine the capability of this place with an attitude towards education of its people like Japan, China or Vietnam or Taiwan or S Korea or ? even the Phillipines get it, the goals are only as low or as high as are set... right now there isnt one here, not really... that is tragic, truly tragic. Thais arnt stupid just uneducated in general, they can fix that if they choose the same as other nations have.

Id rather chat over a beer than try to even describe the finer points here though. ya never know, one day .........

[DGS1244]

All the rice scheme is is a way for those in power to give money to their cronies and hopefully not getting found out. Taksin rules

[Eric Loh]

I will be very interested to know whether the missing rice & poor supervision of the quality occurred during the time when there was a non functioning government and ministries and also whether the thefts were the work of the private warehouse contractors before some sense of judgement can be passed. I also think that the investigators should look whether there were collusion of corruption between Government Warehouse Organisation and the Farmers Organsation with these private conractors whom they contracted. I would think the corruption is only at that level.

[siampolee]

Eric Loh post # 16.

I will be very interested to know whether the missing rice & poor supervision of the quality occurred during the time when there was a non functioning government and ministries and also whether the thefts were the work of the private warehouse contractors before some sense of judgement can be passed. I also think that the investigators should look whether there were collusion of corruption between Government Warehouse Organisation and the Farmers Organsation with these private conractors whom they contracted. I would think the corruption is only at that level.

Well we can all see were you are coming from sunshine.

it's not the Shinwatra clique that caused all this problem it's an interim administration that has been in place for around 6 weeks and they have worked the magic to get the rice to rot and also vanish into the wide blue yonder .

Then it's in your view the farmers who were or are on the fiddle.

Funnily enough if the farmer was on the fiddle the farmer would have had his or her funds in full promptly, plus no doubt a little excess payment of his or her just dues too.

Are you a redundant P.T.P. politician by any chance or just a poor sufferer a from chronic delusions disorder, or possibly a resident in a parallel universe?.

Go and have a nice long ''lie'' down and then you should start to feel better.

[Ricardo]

Those of us who critised the great rice pledging scam scheme at the time of its inception were attacked by those supporters of the Shinwatra clan and the P.T.P. as naysayers and rumour mongers who were trying to undermine the then administration.

Now is it not the time for those who spoke so well of the system to step forward and say ''sorry we were conned and you were right.''

This particular situation is but the tip of a gigantic iceberg of corruption and was designed and implementated soley as self enrichment financial scam to enrich the Shinwatra clan and its ilk..

Never have so many been shafted by so few in the whole history of Thailand and indeed the world.

The P.T.P. politicians like the rice are totally rotten and useless.

Amen, but, we might be waiting a while for our well deserved apology. They are lickety-split jumping to the Shin's defense, but much more tardy when admitting serious errors of judgement.

"Those of us who criticised"

But at least we have the comfort, of having been promoted from "naysayers and rumour mongers who were trying to undermine the then administration", to fascists & coupists and anti-democrats !

Gives one a nice warm feeling, doesn't it, guys ?

[Ricardo]

I will be very interested to know whether the missing rice & poor supervision of the quality occurred during the time when there was a non functioning government and ministries and also whether the thefts were the work of the private warehouse contractors before some sense of judgement can be passed. I also think that the investigators should look whether there were collusion of corruption between Government Warehouse Organisation and the Farmers Organsation with these private conractors whom they contracted. I would think the corruption is only at that level.

Or, to summarise your argument, "But, but, it was all Suthep's fault" ?

I would also point out that it was not "a non functioning government", as you state, but a 'caretaker government' which perhaps failed to take proper care ?

However the OP suggests that proper stock-rotation practices may have broken down well before that, more than two years ago, which puts the responsibilty firmly with the PTP/Yingluck government ?

"Probably it's because rice has been stored for too long. Some has been here for more than two years," Somchai Larbrittidej said as a representative of a surveyor.

I do agree that the GWO & FO & private warehouse-contractors should be investigated, there will be low-level people, who can be identified & charged & found guilty & attempts made to recover some of the mis-directed money.

But at a higher level there are also the many politicians who loudly asserted throughout, while refusing to release any of the numbers, there was absolutely nothing wrong with the scheme, and no rice was missing. In their cases it is negligence or incompetence, rather than direct corruption, which are the the charges.

[renaissanc]

Of course, after this rice fiasco and what Pheu Thai and their Boss have done, one would think that the farmers would dump them. But when it comes to election time, Thaksin will role out another party with a new name ("The Happy Thais Party", "The Harmony Party", "The Peace and Unity Party", "The Thaksin Loves Thailand Party", "The Bring Homesick Thaksin Back Home Party", etc.) and lots of fanfare, colours, music, etc. Smiling politicians dressed in white, promising to be honest and to introduce a new era for Thailand, will hold babies, push ploughs, wear sarongs, eat sticky rice, etc., and the farmers will vote for these wolves in sheep's clothing, and it will start all over again.

[Robby nz]

I will be very interested to know whether the missing rice & poor supervision of the quality occurred during the time when there was a non functioning government and ministries and also whether the thefts were the work of the private warehouse contractors before some sense of judgement can be passed. I also think that the investigators should look whether there were collusion of corruption between Government Warehouse Organisation and the Farmers Organsation with these private conractors whom they contracted. I would think the corruption is only at that level.

That would be the private contractors like Nuttawat transport, right.

[cooked]

The farmers were threatening to march on Bangkok, not for political reasons as far as they were concerned, but because they wanted their <deleted> money. They were also threatening to go and audit the warehouses themselves if the democratically elected government didn't do it. This was obviously a recipe for supplementary chaos on top of all the red shirt/yellow shirt disruptions that made life in Bangkok so difficult. The last elections in February were annulled, for good reason and that was where things really started to break down.

In these circumstances, democracy is a luxury. The guy that is likely to be the next prime minister, at least interim, has impressed me favourably so far, I am not starry eyed about his actions but if he can keep it up for a year or two things should improve. Thailand need a new constitution amongst many other things, wait and see.

As for the comments about stupid rice farmers selling their vote: maybe they were naive to trust promises but look at stuff that has happened in other democracies, I could accuse the USA, the UK France... quite a few other contries of naively believibg the promises of politicians.

[robblok]

Care to prove my support of the shin clan or the last gov other than it was elected legally, I challenge you. i support democratic choice, even foolish ones here just as much as I do in my own country, thats it..

Sorry if I dont get all teary eyed and hormonal about a crap government and call out the tanks like some, ... im a little more grown up and educated than that. Id prefer they waited until next election time and boot them out the right way, yknow, like grown up civilised countries do, let the people learn the lesson the hard way and maybe just maybe they wont make the mistake over and over again... as it is they will learn nothing but continue to repeat the mistakes of lessons unlearnt.

The problem with that is that if they had had the 2.5 trillion loan they would have used it to hide this. Thing is without the army these current checks would never have been done.

Face it they would have suppressed all evidence, in a normal democracy like back home this would not have happened and an independent organisation would have done the checks. Here this is not so so you can't compare the two and a coup was needed.

Why compare it with back home while its nothing like back home.. I would be the first to defend my government if the army took over because I know we have a working democracy. Here that is not the case.

[fab4]

Yet Yingluck just 2 days ago continues to cling to the hilarious opinion that all is (and always has been) well with the rice scam, and that all accusations of missing, bad quality and spoiled rice are pure figments of the national auditors' office imagination.

She took the salary of chairperson of the rice scam and did absolutely nothing but stood by and watched (or even helped) the scheme being pilfered from end to end.

Wonder how the farmers who waited over 6 months for their money feel about the amount of money gone missing? six times more than was owed a million of those farmers.

They were not paid because all the money was STOLEN!!!!!!!!!

Out of interest, just how much was Yinglucks salary as chairperson of the National Rice Policy Committee? Any more gems like that?

[englishoak]

Care to prove my support of the shin clan or the last gov other than it was elected legally, I challenge you. i support democratic choice, even foolish ones here just as much as I do in my own country, thats it..

Sorry if I dont get all teary eyed and hormonal about a crap government and call out the tanks like some, ... im a little more grown up and educated than that. Id prefer they waited until next election time and boot them out the right way, yknow, like grown up civilised countries do, let the people learn the lesson the hard way and maybe just maybe they wont make the mistake over and over again... as it is they will learn nothing but continue to repeat the mistakes of lessons unlearnt.

The problem with that is that if they had had the 2.5 trillion loan they would have used it to hide this. Thing is without the army these current checks would never have been done.

Face it they would have suppressed all evidence, in a normal democracy like back home this would not have happened and an independent organisation would have done the checks. Here this is not so so you can't compare the two and a coup was needed.

Why compare it with back home while its nothing like back home.. I would be the first to defend my government if the army took over because I know we have a working democracy. Here that is not the case.

Because its never been allowed to work thats why, not at all. You cant blame democracy for the failings of the system that cherry picks bits and bobs then complains when it dosnt work, its a bit like moaning about having a car that breaks down all the time when you skimp on having all the other parts that make it run reliably, like a radiator and then when it breaks down just go out and buy the cheapest piece of crap over and over again with the same bits missing off it... then later say after a few repeat bad purchases say all cars are crap so im gonna go back to a horse and cart....

I just dont see the sense in it.

[robblok]

Care to prove my support of the shin clan or the last gov other than it was elected legally, I challenge you. i support democratic choice, even foolish ones here just as much as I do in my own country, thats it..

Sorry if I dont get all teary eyed and hormonal about a crap government and call out the tanks like some, ... im a little more grown up and educated than that. Id prefer they waited until next election time and boot them out the right way, yknow, like grown up civilised countries do, let the people learn the lesson the hard way and maybe just maybe they wont make the mistake over and over again... as it is they will learn nothing but continue to repeat the mistakes of lessons unlearnt.

The problem with that is that if they had had the 2.5 trillion loan they would have used it to hide this. Thing is without the army these current checks would never have been done.

Face it they would have suppressed all evidence, in a normal democracy like back home this would not have happened and an independent organisation would have done the checks. Here this is not so so you can't compare the two and a coup was needed.

Why compare it with back home while its nothing like back home.. I would be the first to defend my government if the army took over because I know we have a working democracy. Here that is not the case.

Because its never been allowed to work thats why, not at all. You cant blame democracy for the failings of the system that cherry picks bits and bobs then complains when it dosnt work, its a bit like moaning about having a car that breaks down all the time when you skimp on having all the other parts that make it run reliably, like a radiator and then when it breaks down just go out and buy the cheapest piece of crap over and over again with the same bits missing off it... then later say after a few repeat bad purchases say all cars are crap so im gonna go back to a horse and cart....

I just dont see the sense in it.

I see the generals as the mechanic of said car and the PTP as the driver that misuses the car. Guess we both see things differently.

You are willing to have more people get killed and railroaded by Charlem (read the other topic you posted in about the murder) so that in the end (if this has ever gotten proven without the army) the PTP would be voted away.

Sorry but that is not a Democracy.. in a democracy you got independent agencies with checks and balances not a party in power that does its best to remove those.

You cant say I accept all its shortcomings and hope it matures no matter how many get killed and blamed for things they did not do until the vote buying wont work anymore and the economy is in ruins.

That is pure red propaganda.

[siampolee]

fab 4 post # 24.

Out of interest, just how much was Yinglucks salary as chairperson of the National Rice Policy Committee? Any more gems like that?

Clutching at rice straws are we ?

Out of interest, just how much was a Shinwatras lobby persons salary ?

[englishoak]

Care to prove my support of the shin clan or the last gov other than it was elected legally, I challenge you. i support democratic choice, even foolish ones here just as much as I do in my own country, thats it..

Sorry if I dont get all teary eyed and hormonal about a crap government and call out the tanks like some, ... im a little more grown up and educated than that. Id prefer they waited until next election time and boot them out the right way, yknow, like grown up civilised countries do, let the people learn the lesson the hard way and maybe just maybe they wont make the mistake over and over again... as it is they will learn nothing but continue to repeat the mistakes of lessons unlearnt.

The problem with that is that if they had had the 2.5 trillion loan they would have used it to hide this. Thing is without the army these current checks would never have been done.

Face it they would have suppressed all evidence, in a normal democracy like back home this would not have happened and an independent organisation would have done the checks. Here this is not so so you can't compare the two and a coup was needed.

Why compare it with back home while its nothing like back home.. I would be the first to defend my government if the army took over because I know we have a working democracy. Here that is not the case.

Because its never been allowed to work thats why, not at all. You cant blame democracy for the failings of the system that cherry picks bits and bobs then complains when it dosnt work, its a bit like moaning about having a car that breaks down all the time when you skimp on having all the other parts that make it run reliably, like a radiator and then when it breaks down just go out and buy the cheapest piece of crap over and over again with the same bits missing off it... then later say after a few repeat bad purchases say all cars are crap so im gonna go back to a horse and cart....

I just dont see the sense in it.

I see the generals as the mechanic of said car and the PTP as the driver that misuses the car. Guess we both see things differently.

You are willing to have more people get killed and railroaded by Charlem (read the other topic you posted in about the murder) so that in the end (if this has ever gotten proven without the army) the PTP would be voted away.

Sorry but that is not a Democracy.. in a democracy you got independent agencies with checks and balances not a party in power that does its best to remove those.

You cant say I accept all its shortcomings and hope it matures no matter how many get killed and blamed for things they did not do until the vote buying wont work anymore and the economy is in ruins.

That is pure red propaganda.

Yup we do see things differently I see the generals as the used car salesman they have to keep buying the crap thing from rather than the mechanics.

im not of the opinion there is a quick and easy fix here, every time theres a honeymoon period but it always ends up some point in the future with more innocents being killed and repeating. Just how long do you let the cycle continue before enough is enough ?

Some see the army as the answer some see it as just part of a well proven repeating cycle. ATM history is on the side of the latter.

It is not fair to label the hard won peace and struggle of many countries, mine included maybe yours too by simply calling it red propaganda...I do take offence to that comparison.

Democracy in most countries has been very costly both in blood and ruined economies, its true and Its not a system that is easily learned without struggle usually but its sure not without its examples, even one with a coup, see Portugal.

Your obviously hoping for that and as much as id like it to be I cant say im in the least bit confident it will be as all evidence and history here points the other way.

[robblok]

The problem with that is that if they had had the 2.5 trillion loan they would have used it to hide this. Thing is without the army these current checks would never have been done.

Face it they would have suppressed all evidence, in a normal democracy like back home this would not have happened and an independent organisation would have done the checks. Here this is not so so you can't compare the two and a coup was needed.

Why compare it with back home while its nothing like back home.. I would be the first to defend my government if the army took over because I know we have a working democracy. Here that is not the case.

Because its never been allowed to work thats why, not at all. You cant blame democracy for the failings of the system that cherry picks bits and bobs then complains when it dosnt work, its a bit like moaning about having a car that breaks down all the time when you skimp on having all the other parts that make it run reliably, like a radiator and then when it breaks down just go out and buy the cheapest piece of crap over and over again with the same bits missing off it... then later say after a few repeat bad purchases say all cars are crap so im gonna go back to a horse and cart....

I just dont see the sense in it.

I see the generals as the mechanic of said car and the PTP as the driver that misuses the car. Guess we both see things differently.

You are willing to have more people get killed and railroaded by Charlem (read the other topic you posted in about the murder) so that in the end (if this has ever gotten proven without the army) the PTP would be voted away.

Sorry but that is not a Democracy.. in a democracy you got independent agencies with checks and balances not a party in power that does its best to remove those.

You cant say I accept all its shortcomings and hope it matures no matter how many get killed and blamed for things they did not do until the vote buying wont work anymore and the economy is in ruins.

That is pure red propaganda.

Yup we do see things differently I see the generals as the used car salesman they have to keep buying the crap thing from rather than the mechanics.

im not of the opinion there is a quick and easy fix here, every time theres a honeymoon period but it always ends up some point in the future with more innocents being killed and repeating. Just how long do you let the cycle continue before enough is enough ?

Some see the army as the answer some see it as just part of a well proven repeating cycle. ATM history is on the side of the latter.

It is not fair to label the hard won peace and struggle of many countries, mine included maybe yours too by simply calling it red propaganda...I do take offence to that comparison.

Democracy in most countries has been very costly both in blood and ruined economies, its true and Its not a system that is easily learned without struggle usually but its sure not without its examples, even one with a coup, see Portugal.

Your obviously hoping for that and as much as id like it to be I cant say im in the least bit confident it will be as all evidence and history here points the other way.

Yes we see things differently,I am of the opinion that a coup done by the right people and when good laws are put in place it can help democracy forwards.

Though I do share your doubts a bit but I rather try this first before I let people die for it rot in jail while innocent because the PTP fabricates evidence, a rice program that would never have been checked had they stayed in power wrecking the economy.

I rather try a shortcut first and see what happens, because I hate injustice and that was what the PTP stood for as has been proven now.

But i think we can debate till we are both grey and nobody will give in. Lets call it quits i need to work.

Anyway I can reason with you .. its hard to reason with a grenade thrown at you. So your not that bad compared to the extremists on the red side.

[Eric Loh]

I will be very interested to know whether the missing rice & poor supervision of the quality occurred during the time when there was a non functioning government and ministries and also whether the thefts were the work of the private warehouse contractors before some sense of judgement can be passed. I also think that the investigators should look whether there were collusion of corruption between Government Warehouse Organisation and the Farmers Organsation with these private conractors whom they contracted. I would think the corruption is only at that level.

That would be the private contractors like Nuttawat transport, right.

Robbie, you misunderstood. If it is Nuttawut warehouse and there are evidence to proof corruption, he should get the same treatment as others. Same as ministers and even Yingluck if there are enough evidence to charge them. But here in TVF land, ignorant people are just speculating and accusing based on colour affiliation. I am just stating the fact that rice could be missing when the government was not fully functioning ( that is the word used by Payuth) and corrupt people take that advantage.

The rice scheme was poorly designed and there was poor implementation. There are Coloured affiliated posters who made silly political innuendo with some saying silly things are Thailand will go the way of Greece and it is a Taksin scam without an iota of evidence. Has any minister been convicted yet.? So far I only see corruption at the private warehouse level, no ministers were even mentioned less implicated.

[ginjag]

Thailand cannot let the people learn the hard way, they cannot afford to go through another PTP government. Here lies the problem.

This is why more educated people have to step in to try to solve the problem. It's all very well talking from the democratic manual, we all can do this, but here it is not working it's obvious. All we have heard over 3 years is let the people decide, so if the government is not democratic have another election.??? from pro PTP supporters.

How do you get the people learn ?? how do you educate them into what's good and bad ??? Have elections until they learn.???

You are more educated you say and more grown up ??? You'd prefer they booted the bad government out. BUT you forgot one thing they are not as educated or as grown up as you are.

This is why the army are here to try to rectify this. They are trying, my opinion. ginjag.

Id disagree of course gin. Yup you let the country take its natural course, financial crash ? no problem its a natural cycle, no one will starve here Thailand is blessed with agricultural fertility and the bounce back would be rapid. Let them realise education of the masses IS the only way to permanent improvement and even then there will be hurdles. So it takes time and there will be serious bumps and all manner of mistakes... so what its nothing compared to being in constant limbo.

You think that the poor cant learn simple political interest or savvy ? They soon would left to a few very bad terms im sure. Give it 30 years learning by hard knocks and it would be so much better, i do not subscribe to the fear of civil war and all that talk. A nation with the will to change WILL change, education is the measure of how serious a country takes its future im sure youd agree.

Life is about learning from mistakes and improving not bailing as soon as it gets tough going, for a nation its no different, I really, REALLY would like to see one thing overhauled from top to bottom here and thats education... everything else stems from it. Morals, honesty, integrity, drive, ambition, ability.

There are plenty of countries that have gone through this process out there, all in fact and Thailand really is no different. Not in the solution anyway, sooner or later ( looks like much later ) they will have to address the education problem. the longer the wait the more cost to the entire country in the long run.There really isnt any other option, in the meantime yes let it stumble along like all developing and fledgling countries do. Teflon Thailand would im sure surprise many.

Democracy has barely started here and every few years or so its reset... this is not how you move forwards. It just isnt, if there is no pain there really is nothing learnt and so the deferring to class and elite educated over working class educated will continue... its a cycle that just has to be broken.

it is sad there is so little faith in the next generation here or will to improve it, one of the only nations of Asia that isnt totally obsessed with education in the poor villages in fact. This is the result of intentional dumbing down, imagine the capability of this place with an attitude towards education of its people like Japan, China or Vietnam or Taiwan or S Korea or ? even the Phillipines get it, the goals are only as low or as high as are set... right now there isnt one here, not really... that is tragic, truly tragic. Thais arnt stupid just uneducated in general, they can fix that if they choose the same as other nations have.

Id rather chat over a beer than try to even describe the finer points here though. ya never know, one day .........

Basics oak, My grandfather would not let me keep hitting my thumb until it burst open just because I have to learn the hard way. He would have to intervene to show me what the problem is, the hammer or me. Thai need this way, not elections because it's seen to be democratic to me that in Thailand does not work. NOT YET.