Israel prepares for ground military operation, 98 dead in Gaza Strip airstrikes

Morch · July 21, 2014

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza
People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

From the story, these guys are well within rocket range of Gaza. They do not seem to need shelter from the rain of rockets that are fired each day.

There goes your higher IQ theory....

Morch · July 21, 2014

75% of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians.

According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie?

This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is:

http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

UG, you criticize numbers used by the NY Times, the UN, and most mainstream news outlets, because you say they are "Palestinian Sources"

But then you post a link by Elliott Abrams. Who is Elliot Abrams?

I started to read his Wikipedia page..

"Abrams was born into a Jewish family in New York in 1948...."

"During this time, Abrams clashed regularly with church groups and human rights organizations, including Human Rights Watch.^[15]^[16] and Amnesty International, over the Reagan administration's foreign policies. They accused him of covering up atrocities committed by the military forces of US-backed governments, such as those in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala, and the rebel Contras in Nicaragua."

Yeah he's much more credible.

Not disputing the Elliot Abrams bit, he's a player and a dodgy one at that.

As for figures used by NY TIMES, UN, and mainstream media outlets - well, a lot of them are basically the same figures, just rehashed over and over again. Most of the original data can be sourced to a UN agency report, which itself was based on figures reported by Hamas Ministry of Health and Palestinian NGOs in Gaza. The report itself was a bit more careful about it, but as often happens, this got cut out in editing in favor of "concrete" figures.

As previous experience shows, it is usually safer to exercise some caution when relying on casualty figured provided by interested parties, while events are still in motion. That is not to say that there are no civilian casualties or anything of the sort, just that repeating figures quoted in media is not always as accurate as people seem to think or as solidly based as we could wish.

dexterm · July 21, 2014

If I were in London, I'd be marching with them too, and I'm not a Muslim. Many Palestinians are Christians.

Less than 10% in the West Bank.

Less than 1% in the Gaza Strip.

If said demonstrations are indeed worldwide, I'm sure there's a venue near you.

Have fun marching, apply safety precautions when burning flag.

>>If said demonstrations are indeed worldwide

...they are indeed

Jewish doctor thrown off JetBlue flight after accusing Palestinian woman of having a bomb in her luggage during heated argument over Israeli military action in Gaza

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698788/Jewish-doctor-thrown-JetBlue-flight-accusing-Palestinian-woman-having-bomb-luggage-heated-argument-Israeli-military-action-Gaza.html

dexterm · July 21, 2014

USG,

>> that want to wipe Israel off the map.

....Israel will wipe itself off the map when it absorbs all the Palestinians it is occupying.

Something which Israel repeatedly said it will not do.

And if someone thinks this is a real possibility, then why bother with an armed struggle?

Better to make love, not war and tilt demographics further...

I think that is exactly what Abbas has in mind.

If Israel doesn't want to occupy Palestinians, why colonize the West Bank, making a 2 state solution nonviable. hence a one state solution.

boomerangutang · July 21, 2014

Clinton managed to cajole both a reluctant Arafat and Barak to make concessions. If only he could have got a tentative deal done. They could both have gone back to their peoples and put it to a referendum.

Clinton and Carter, both got agreements with an ever-grinning Arafat. Both times, after Arafat agreed, he went back an announced to cheering crowds that he agreed to nothing. Yippee! Then fighting ensued in earnest for ensuing months and years. Arafat was to a peace deal what a fox is to nurturing hen's eggs. I don't know if Arafat was very crafty or incredibly stupid or perhaps enjoyed ongoing conflict, because it kept him in the driver's seat. I think it was a combination of those three gaping character flaws.

Arafat is proof that, in Arab lands, 'gentlemen's agreement' or 'agreement in principle' mean nothing.

Ulysses G. · July 21, 2014

75% of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians.

According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie?

This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is:
http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

UG, you criticize numbers used by the NY Times, the UN, and most mainstream news outlets, because you say they are "Palestinian Sources"

I said that they come from Palestinian sources, which is the same thing that Abrams says and Morch for that matter. Just who do you think these very questionable statistics are coming from in the middle of an active war zone that has been in turmoil since this started a few weeks ago? It is only common sense.

Morch · July 21, 2014

If I were in London, I'd be marching with them too, and I'm not a Muslim. Many Palestinians are Christians.

Less than 10% in the West Bank.

Less than 1% in the Gaza Strip.

If said demonstrations are indeed worldwide, I'm sure there's a venue near you.

Have fun marching, apply safety precautions when burning flag.

>>If said demonstrations are indeed worldwide

...they are indeed

Jewish doctor thrown off JetBlue flight after accusing Palestinian woman of having a bomb in her luggage during heated argument over Israeli military action in Gaza

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698788/Jewish-doctor-thrown-JetBlue-flight-accusing-Palestinian-woman-having-bomb-luggage-heated-argument-Israeli-military-action-Gaza.html

Yeah, well...idiots are in short supply regardless of their political ideas.

March on.

Morch · July 21, 2014

USG,

>> that want to wipe Israel off the map.

....Israel will wipe itself off the map when it absorbs all the Palestinians it is occupying.

Something which Israel repeatedly said it will not do.

And if someone thinks this is a real possibility, then why bother with an armed struggle?

Better to make love, not war and tilt demographics further...

I think that is exactly what Abbas has in mind.

If Israel doesn't want to occupy Palestinians, why colonize the West Bank, making a 2 state solution nonviable. hence a one state solution.

Because there is no one coherent Israeli plan or view on how to solve issues with the Palestinians. Because the whole illegal settlements effort sort of snowballed into what it is today, hardly a long term, well thought out and approved strategy.

As seen in the Gaza Strip and the Sinai peninsula, it is not beyond Israel to clear settlements and give back lands.

kblaze · July 21, 2014

75% of the casualties in Gaza have been civilians.

According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie?

This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is:
http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

UG, you criticize numbers used by the NY Times, the UN, and most mainstream news outlets, because you say they are "Palestinian Sources"

I said that they come from Palestinian sources, which is the same thing that Abrams says and Morch for that matter. Just who do you think these very questionable statistics are coming from in the middle of an active war zone that has been in turmoil since this started a few weeks ago? It is only common sense.

The fact is the world's major news sources seem to have enough trust in the numbers to use them.

So, if we must throw away reports from the NYT, Guardian, UN, et al, because they are using sources you don't agree with, pray tell, which sources should we use?

(plz dont say IDF Blog)

Morch · July 21, 2014

According to Palestinian sources. Would they ever lie?

This is almost certainly false, as a look at the numbers by CAMERA shows. The Gaza population has the predictable demographic qualities: half men and half women, many children, etc. If 77% of the casualties were civilians, we would see that reflected in the figures. If there is a huge over-representation of males of combat age in the casualty figures, it’s fair to assume that’s because Israel is targeting and hitting combatants. And so it is:
http://blogs.cfr.org/abrams/2014/07/16/casualties-in-gaza/

UG, you criticize numbers used by the NY Times, the UN, and most mainstream news outlets, because you say they are "Palestinian Sources"

I said that they come from Palestinian sources, which is the same thing that Abrams says and Morch for that matter. Just who do you think these very questionable statistics are coming from in the middle of an active war zone that has been in turmoil since this started a few weeks ago? It is only common sense.

The fact is the world's major news sources seem to have enough trust in the numbers to use them.

So, if we must throw away reports from the NYT, Guardian, UN, et al, because they are using sources you don't agree with, pray tell, which sources should we use?

(plz dont say IDF Blog)

Don't have to throw away anything. Just treat figures with a dose of doubt, and when possible track them down to the source. Most of the figures in main steam media come from very few original sources, and most just keep on quoting each other, one way or another. The picture will be clearer when the fighting stops.

Ulysses G. · July 21, 2014

The fact is the world's major news sources seem to have enough trust in the numbers to use them.

There are no other sources right now and they want to "report" something. Many of these same publications went along with the line that there were WMDs in Iraq too - until the truth came out.

Ulysses G. · July 21, 2014

So, if we must throw away reports from the NYT, Guardian, UN, et al, because they are using sources you don't agree with, pray tell, which sources should we use?

The truth is that no one knows the true figures right now. The area is in the middle of a major military conflict and anyone trustworthy is outside of Gaza where it is safe. "We" will just have to wait like everyone else.

kblaze · July 21, 2014

The fact is the world's major news sources seem to have enough trust in the numbers to use them.

There are no other sources right now and they want to "report" something. Many of these same publications went along with the line that there were WMDs in Iraq too - until the truth came out.

The WMDs in Iraq were a story sold to us. The bloodbath in Gaza is very real. Sure, often times the more time that passes, the more clarity we get on the situation. But because of the strong need to project a positive image on both sides, and their willingness to twist, distort, there are also times when what is most true is what is first reported. There are dozens of journalists from international news organizations around the world embedded. The beauty(?) of the day and age we live in, is that all of these journalists have the ability to rapid-fire shoot across the world pics, video, and eyewitness accounts.

There is truth in some of what is coming out. The odds are for it. Even if we halved the numbers; 225 dead 1500 injured palestinians, 40% civilian.. and halved the number of on the ground reports that are coming out detailing unnecessary brutality (like what I just watched; a live interview with Dr. Mads Gilbert, Norwegian doctor working in a hospital, he said another hospital just got hit, many dead and injured patients), it is still difficult to support what is happening is it not?

Ulysses G. · July 21, 2014

The fact is the world's major news sources seem to have enough trust in the numbers to use them.

There are no other sources right now and they want to "report" something. Many of these same publications went along with the line that there were WMDs in Iraq too - until the truth came out.

The WMDs in Iraq were a story sold to us.

So are the casualty figures at this point. The number of deaths could possibly be correct, but no one knows how many are civilians and how many were used as human shields. Hamas sends women and children to die as "martyrs" whenever they get the chance and no one is wearing uniforms. There is no way that anyone knows the true figures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy8fbkOHMKU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3OYjKZ2Cu8

Edited July 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

ggold · July 21, 2014

I am curious! a question to the pro Hamas or Palestinian posters.

If it were the other way around and it was hamas who had a greater success over Israel, would you be as vociferous about the killing of Israeli's?

Ulysses G. · July 21, 2014

We ALL know the answer to that.

kblaze · July 21, 2014

I am curious! a question to the pro Hamas or Palestinian posters.

If it were the other way around and it was hamas who had a greater success over Israel, would you be as vociferous about the killing of Israeli's?

So you believe if someone protests against this aggression...they must support Hamas...

Edited July 21, 2014 by kblaze

kblaze · July 21, 2014

The fact is the world's major news sources seem to have enough trust in the numbers to use them.

There are no other sources right now and they want to "report" something. Many of these same publications went along with the line that there were WMDs in Iraq too - until the truth came out.

The WMDs in Iraq were a story sold to us.

So are the casualty figures at this point. The number of deaths could possibly be correct, but no one knows how many are civilians and how many were used as human shields. Hamas sends women and children to die as "martyrs" whenever they get the chance and no one is wearing uniforms. There is no way that anyone knows the true figures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy8fbkOHMKU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3OYjKZ2Cu8

Whats your point with the youtube clips? You think we don't know there is radicalization in Palestine?

Is there not radicalization in the US?

In Thailand?

In Israel?

Ulysses G. · July 21, 2014

The point is that anyone could be a terrorist. Weren't you the one who was claiming that they all had to me men of military age?

kblaze · July 21, 2014

The point is that anyone could be a terrorist. Weren't you the one who was claiming that they all had to me men of military age?

No, that wasn't me. I know nothing of Hamas' military training ages (you got that NSA?)

Anyways...I'm just frustrated. I guess I'm just resigned to the fact that there is nothing I can do to make you change your mind that not all Palestinians in the Gaza strip are terrorists or would ever choose to be such. I truly wish you could sit and eat with a Gazan family who doesn't support Hamas (despite what you think, there are many)...I think you...and they..would be enlightened.

Ulysses G. · July 21, 2014

The point is that anyone could be a terrorist. Weren't you the one who was claiming that they all had to me men of military age?

No, that wasn't me.

Oh sorry I thought that was what you meant when you said this. I thought that you were being sarcastic:

"Oh right, because its impossible for Israeli border guard to tell the difference between Gazans and terrorists. Women, kids, young men...all potential Hamas operatives..."

I don't know where you get the idea that I think all Palestinians are terrorists. I'm sure plenty of them are nice people. However, nice people often get killed in war - especially when they elect people like Hamas to represent them. I do feel sorry for the regular people. I just don't see what other choice Israel has when dealing with such fanatics. Edited July 21, 2014 by Ulysses G.

kblaze · July 21, 2014

The point is that anyone could be a terrorist. Weren't you the one who was claiming that they all had to me men of military age?

No, that wasn't me.

Oh sorry I thought that was what you meant when you said this. I thought that you were being sarcastic:

"Oh right, because its impossible for Israeli border guard to tell the difference between Gazans and terrorists. Women, kids, young men...all potential Hamas operatives..."

I don't know where you get the idea that I think all Palestinians are terrorists. I'm sure plenty of them are nice people. However, nice people often get killed in war - especially when they elect people like Hamas to represent them.
I do feel sorry for lots of them. I just don't see what other choice Israel has when dealing with such fanatics.

Sorry I misread you. No, what I was saying is that a reasonable border crossing could be set up during the siege whereby some Gazans were allowed to leave. Thus relieving pressure on the "20" UN schools, and moving more non-combatants out. Can we at least agree on that? Rather than just "foreign passport holders"

Old people, infants, moms...something

Edited July 21, 2014 by kblaze

kblaze · July 21, 2014

...but then you responded saying, nope they could all be terrorists. So if we treat them as if they are all terrorists...how is that different from how you would treat them if they actually were all terrorists? I'm assuming because in the latter case you would kill them, whereas in the former they have to suffer, corralled in

FritsSikkink · July 21, 2014

There is for billions gas to be found in the sea where Gaza is.

Conspiracy theory time!

Here some more:

http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-grants-golan-heights-oil-license-2013-2

Morch · July 21, 2014

The point is that anyone could be a terrorist. Weren't you the one who was claiming that they all had to me men of military age?

No, that wasn't me.

Oh sorry I thought that was what you meant when you said this. I thought that you were being sarcastic:

"Oh right, because its impossible for Israeli border guard to tell the difference between Gazans and terrorists. Women, kids, young men...all potential Hamas operatives..."

I don't know where you get the idea that I think all Palestinians are terrorists. I'm sure plenty of them are nice people. However, nice people often get killed in war - especially when they elect people like Hamas to represent them.
I do feel sorry for lots of them. I just don't see what other choice Israel has when dealing with such fanatics.

Sorry I misread you. No, what I was saying is that a reasonable border crossing could be set up during the siege whereby some Gazans were allowed to leave. Thus relieving pressure on the "20" UN schools, and moving more non-combatants out. Can we at least agree on that? Rather than just "foreign passport holders"

Old people, infants, moms...something

No pressure on Egypt to open the land border, allow non-combatants only a limited stay until things get back to "normal".

Not very likely they'll accept anyway, seeing as they're not sweet on Hamas and not keen on taking aboard refugees.

But still, would make more sense from a humanitarian point of view.

dexterm · July 21, 2014

I am curious! a question to the pro Hamas or Palestinian posters.

If it were the other way around and it was hamas who had a greater success over Israel, would you be as vociferous about the killing of Israeli's?

The straw man fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Invent a hypothetical then treat it as if it were real.

Any man who kills innocent children is a terrorist.

Ulysses G. · July 22, 2014

Actually, Any man who purposely kills innocent children is a terrorist and, in this conflict, only Hamas do that.

dexterm · July 22, 2014

Actually, Any man who purposely kills innocent children is a terrorist and, in this conflict, only Hamas do that.

..you mean like this...

11 Jul 2014 - 3:54pm. KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — The Al Haj family never heard it coming: An Israeli missile smashed into their home in the middle of the night, destroying the structure and killing eight relatives in a matter of seconds. A survivor said all the dead were civilians.

http://therealsingapore.com/content/more-85-people-killed-gaza-israel-continues-their-missile-attacks

Edited July 22, 2014 by dexterm

Ulysses G. · July 22, 2014

No. Purposely. More like this:

The hateful crime that sparked the current conflict.

"This evening, we found three bodies and all the signs indicate that they are the bodies of our three kidnapped youngsters," Netanyahu told ministers at the start of an emergency session of his security cabinet. "They were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by human animals,"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/israel-vows-hamas-pay-murder-teenagers

Edited July 22, 2014 by Ulysses G.

dexterm · July 22, 2014

No. Purposely. More like this:

The hateful crime that sparked the current conflict.

"This evening, we found three bodies and all the signs indicate that they are the bodies of our three kidnapped youngsters," Netanyahu told ministers at the start of an emergency session of his security cabinet. "They were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by human animals,"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/israel-vows-hamas-pay-murder-teenagers

I have previously condemned the killers of these 3 Israeli teenagers as psychopathic murderers. It’s a pity you cant admit the same, that people like this lurk in the ranks of the IDF too.

Netanyahu was informed within the first few hours that they were probably dead and the names of the 2 killers also, rogue elements of a Hebron clan, were known to police very quickly too...they demolished their parents’ houses. But he ordered a media blackout and launched Operation Brothers Keeper smashing up Palestinian homes and arresting 500 Hamas affiliates without a shred of evidence so that ostensibly he could try to find them, thus tormenting the boys’ poor parents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Protective_Edge

He chose to make this incident his pretext for the present invasion of Gaza, in order to break up the unity government of Hamas and PA. Unfortunately his reckless actions have caused the deaths of 27 more Israelis too.

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