Israel prepares for ground military operation, 98 dead in Gaza Strip airstrikes

dexterm · July 30, 2014

Again, there are forces on both sides that really don't want peace or aren't willing to pay the price of peace anyway. It is total idiocy to solely blame either side. But for now, Israel really must do what they must do to repel the terrorist Hamas threat in Gaza.

Ah yes. The "terrorist threat". You can't have a constructive discussion unless you acknowledge that there are other items on the agenda.

So the rockets and tunnels aren't real things to you, huh? Amazing.

Why are you amazed? Where did I say these things aren't real? Do you have any idea what it means to discuss rationally?

Repeating Netanyahu's Zionist propaganda over and over does not qualify as rational discussion.

Thankfully, modern media shows the truth of Israel's disregard for human rights. Israel lost its moral high ground long ago. The suspicion of previously neutral people - and nations - shows Israel has lost credibility. It is now seen by many as a rogue nation.

Hear hear.... israel appears more and more as a rogue nation..

Israel goes rogue: America’s inability to use its leverage over Netanyahu signals a worrying new chapter in Middle East history

It’s no surprise that so many ordinary Americans think the rest of the world can go hang itself. What did they lose so many sons and daughters for in Iraq exactly? Or indeed in Afghanistan. As for Israel, it uses US tax dollars to obliterate Gaza and then turns around and accuses Washington of being unfriendly towards it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/israel-goes-rogue-americas-inability-to-use-its-leverage-over-netanyahu-signals-a-worrying-new-chapter-in-middle-east-history-9636668.html

dr_lucas · July 30, 2014

So what are Israel’s goals?

Kill as many Hamas militants and leadership as possible...bitterness may replace losses

Destroy rockets and tunnels...can be rebuilt.

Replace Hamas with PA in hearts and minds of Gazans. Maybe. If peace process is speeded up as a result of this present conflict, then Israel has some serious concessions to make towards a just 2 state solution. Which all contradicts Netanyahu’s recent assertion that there will never be a sovereign Palestinian state.

Somethings got to give. Interesting times we live in.

I believe Israel's main short-term goal (other than the obvious preventive measures) is to achieve some deterrence (of Hamas terrorists).

After which, I hope for some movement in the peace process, with the PA.

Israel's main short term goal, is not just to "achieve some deterrence", but as Netnayahu has said, the goal is the destruction of Hamas. He doesn't say "the deaths of women and children to collectively punish all Gazans for the actions of Hamas", but actions speak louder than words, so he doesn't need to say this.

And srael's main long-term goal is, and has been for many years, the theft of land on the West Bank through the use of Settlements, Court Orders, and the Apartheid Wall (which runs 85% in the West Bank, not on the border). If Palestinians (or Egyptians or Jordanians) were stealing Israeli land, one would expect Israel to fight back too.

Well, I didn't say anything different. As I said "other than the obvious preventive measures", meaning destroying Hamas terror organization, its infrastructures, its missiles, missile factories, terror tunnels etc, anything that terrorize Israeli civilians. Preventive measures.

He doesn't say what you interpret as his target ("the deaths of women and children to collectively punish all Gazans for the actions of Hamas"), simply because it is not his target (killing or the death of innocent civilians), he actually says exactly the opposite: http://media.smh.com.au/featured/netanyahu-hamas-to-blame-for-gaza-deaths-5630044.html (in English)

Your interpretation of Israel's long term goal doesn't go hand in hand with the fact that Israel has made great concessions and withdrawals for peace and to advance peace talks , including the withdrawals from Sinai, Southern Lebanon and Gaza.

You keep accusing Israel of "stealing" land in the west bank. I wonder what, in your view, is Israel's interest in "stealing" Palestinian land? Which land precisely does it "steal"?

Edited July 30, 2014 by dr_lucas

dexterm · July 30, 2014

Israel’s over reaction to a couple of rockets falling harmlessly in an open field in early June and the ostensible search for 3 kidnapped Israeli teenagers which were the pretexts that started this present mayhem are passé now.

As you have been told - and shown - repeatedly, the response was to numerous rocket attacks over many months and years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014

I beg to differ. One man's showing is another man's obfuscation.

You fail to mention the numerous IDF killings and assassinations over many months and years, which may account for numerous rockets fired in frustration at Israel.

If you follow your own link you will find 2 rockets fired in early June, one on 1st one on 14th, which is exactly what I said. If this current invasion (with over 1200 Palestinian and 53 Israeli soldiers dead) was all about Israel wanting to Stop the Rockets, they had more or less already achieved that on June 12 when the teens were kidnapped.

I agree that there are often complex reasons behind a conflict starting. There had also been recent targeted killings of Palestinians by IDF in May and June, and the cold blooded murder of 2 Palestinian teens in Beitunia on May 15. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beitunia_killings

But the incident that lit the blue touch paper was the kidnapping of the 3 teens, and Netanyahu's claim on 15th June "Hamas is responsible".

So while agreeing that conflicts are started by complex reasons, the only things cited are specific violent incidents.

The underlying conditions which led to the current hostilities were detailed in quite a few posts all over these topics,

continuing to treat them as secondary to one specific incident or another hints at either a very simplified view of the

situation or at some inherent bias.

Yes indeed I have an inherent bias. As I have shown repeatedly above...Israel started this current round of hostilities; you have not proven otherwise.

dexterm · July 30, 2014

So what are Israel’s goals?

Kill as many Hamas militants and leadership as possible...bitterness may replace losses

Destroy rockets and tunnels...can be rebuilt.

Replace Hamas with PA in hearts and minds of Gazans. Maybe. If peace process is speeded up as a result of this present conflict, then Israel has some serious concessions to make towards a just 2 state solution. Which all contradicts Netanyahu’s recent assertion that there will never be a sovereign Palestinian state.

Somethings got to give. Interesting times we live in.

I believe Israel's main short-term goal (other than the obvious preventive measures) is to achieve some deterrence (of Hamas terrorists).

After which, I hope for some movement in the peace process, with the PA.

Israel's main short term goal, is not just to "achieve some deterrence", but as Netnayahu has said, the goal is the destruction of Hamas. He doesn't say "the deaths of women and children to collectively punish all Gazans for the actions of Hamas", but actions speak louder than words, so he doesn't need to say this.

And srael's main long-term goal is, and has been for many years, the theft of land on the West Bank through the use of Settlements, Court Orders, and the Apartheid Wall (which runs 85% in the West Bank, not on the border). If Palestinians (or Egyptians or Jordanians) were stealing Israeli land, one would expect Israel to fight back too.

Well, I didn't say anything different. As I said "other than the obvious preventive measures", meaning destroying Hamas terror organization, its infrastructures, its missiles, missile factories, terror tunnels etc, anything that terrorize Israeli civilians. Preventive measures.

He doesn't say what you interpret as his target ("the deaths of women and children to collectively punish all Gazans for the actions of Hamas"), simply because it is not his target (killing or the death of innocent civilians), he actually says exactly the opposite: http://media.smh.com.au/featured/netanyahu-hamas-to-blame-for-gaza-deaths-5630044.html (in English)

Your interpretation of Israel's long term goal doesn't go hand in hand with the fact that Israel has made great concessions and withdrawals for peace and to advance peace talks , including the withdrawals from Sinai, Southern Lebanon and Gaza.

You keep accusing Israel of "stealing" land in the west bank. I wonder what, in your view, is Israel's interest in "stealing" Palestinian land? Which land precisely does it "steal"?

Israel thinks it can indefinitely occupy land that its troops advanced over in wartime. According to the Geneva Convention and the UN Charter, that is illegal in the 21^st century.

They withdrew from Sinai, Southern Lebanon and Gaza because they were illegally occupied too, plus they knew it was ultimately going to be costly in IDF lives to hold onto.

The land that Israel has stolen is everything outside of the pre 1967 borders. Give that land back, or negotiate some land swaps to accommodate some of Israel's large illegal colonies contiguous with 1967 Israel, and all Arab countries and even Hamas have agreed to recognize Israel in secure permanent borders.

The ball has always been in Israel's court. the present Israeli invasion of Gaza is just a smokescreen. But It has backfired..more people globally are now aware as to how Israel operates.

Ulysses G. · July 31, 2014

The land that Israel has stolen is everything outside of the pre 1967 borders.

"Stolen" from whom? Israel conquered that land, from countries making war on them, that were also occupying it and the Palestinians refused the UN deal that would have made it theirs. NO ONE owns that land right now.

metisdead · July 31, 2014

A post containing copyrighted AFP/Getty pictures has been removed.

dexterm · July 31, 2014

The land that Israel has stolen is everything outside of the pre 1967 borders.

"Stolen" from whom? Israel conquered that land, from countries making war on them, that were also occupying it and the Palestinians refused the UN deal that would have made it theirs. NO ONE owns that land right now.

In the 21st century it is illegal to conquer and colonize land displacing the existing inhabitants.

You invoke the 1947 UN resolution to partition Palestine, but you neglect to mention the hundreds of UN resolutions since then that Israel has ignored. In particular Resolution 242 which called upon Israel to withdraw its forces from land claimed by other parties in 1967 war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

If we don't respect international law we have anarchy.

Kalebiran · July 31, 2014

Listen to Netanhanyu's mouthpiece mark ragrev say "Its not clear why israel hit the UN school " and then "hamas were in the area" .They are firing mortar shells in civilian areas which is a "war crime" as international law defines. It will be time for the 21st century version of the nuremberg trials.

Morch · July 31, 2014

So what are Israel’s goals?

Kill as many Hamas militants and leadership as possible...bitterness may replace losses

Destroy rockets and tunnels...can be rebuilt.

Replace Hamas with PA in hearts and minds of Gazans. Maybe. If peace process is speeded up as a result of this present conflict, then Israel has some serious concessions to make towards a just 2 state solution. Which all contradicts Netanyahu’s recent assertion that there will never be a sovereign Palestinian state.

Somethings got to give. Interesting times we live in.

I believe Israel's main short-term goal (other than the obvious preventive measures) is to achieve some deterrence (of Hamas terrorists).

After which, I hope for some movement in the peace process, with the PA.

Israel's main short term goal, is not just to "achieve some deterrence", but as Netnayahu has said, the goal is the destruction of Hamas. He doesn't say "the deaths of women and children to collectively punish all Gazans for the actions of Hamas", but actions speak louder than words, so he doesn't need to say this.

And srael's main long-term goal is, and has been for many years, the theft of land on the West Bank through the use of Settlements, Court Orders, and the Apartheid Wall (which runs 85% in the West Bank, not on the border). If Palestinians (or Egyptians or Jordanians) were stealing Israeli land, one would expect Israel to fight back too.

Israel occupied the West Bank after 1967.

The West Bank was, at the time, occupied by Jordan, and not held by the Palestinians (the same goes for the Gaza Strip, held by Egypt), which sort of muddies the convenient "stealing" claim.

Compared with the past - it would seem that the existence of the Palestinian Authority is actually the first step forward in direct Palestinian control of their own lands. It is not, as some seem to think, that the Palestinians in the West Bank were enjoying complete independence before the Israeli occupation. There was also less noise made internationally when both Jordan and Egypt assumed control over Palestinian lands.

Currently, the Palestinian have more control over their lands and destiny compared to the Past. It is far from perfect, and they have a long and bumpy road until they achieve full independence and control of their lands, but it is not exactly as if things radically different (as far as self determination goes) in the past.

The security barrier, is not a permanent border, a position which both the Israeli government and the Israeli Supreme Court stated before. Israel cleared settlements from areas handed over in the past, relocating a wall is not likely to be a major issue when it comes to it. The "apartheid" bit, while expected, is bogus - would be relevant when the security barrier circles settlements and towns of Arab Israelis as well.

Israel did fight against Jordan, Egypt, the Palestinians and others in 1948. That was over Israel's foes not accepting a UN resolution and attempting to take Israeli lands. Somehow that course of action taken by Israel's foes seem justified by some.

Morch · July 31, 2014

Again, there are forces on both sides that really don't want peace or aren't willing to pay the price of peace anyway. It is total idiocy to solely blame either side. But for now, Israel really must do what they must do to repel the terrorist Hamas threat in Gaza.

Ah yes. The "terrorist threat". You can't have a constructive discussion unless you acknowledge that there are other items on the agenda.

Coming from someone who insists that the paramount issue is real estate rights, while paying cursory attention to other problematic issues, this is quite rich.

Morch · July 31, 2014

Israel thinks it can indefinitely occupy land that its troops advanced over in wartime. According to the Geneva Convention and the UN Charter, that is illegal in the 21^st century.

They withdrew from Sinai, Southern Lebanon and Gaza because they were illegally occupied too, plus they knew it was ultimately going to be costly in IDF lives to hold onto.

The land that Israel has stolen is everything outside of the pre 1967 borders. Give that land back, or negotiate some land swaps to accommodate some of Israel's large illegal colonies contiguous with 1967 Israel, and all Arab countries and even Hamas have agreed to recognize Israel in secure permanent borders.

The ball has always been in Israel's court. the present Israeli invasion of Gaza is just a smokescreen. But It has backfired..more people globally are now aware as to how Israel operates.

While I do not think that the reasons leading to Israel withdrawing from areas occupied has much to do with altruism, that

is not a requirement not a standard in relationship between countries. At least as far as the Sinai Peninsula is concerned,

Israel's withdrawal had nothing to do with potential casualties for the IDF - quite the opposite. Losing the Sinai peninsula

meant losing critical strategic depth.

The claim that "Hamas have agreed to recognize Israel in secure permanent borders." is simply not true.

Hamas actually rejected both instances when the Arab League offer came up. The best Hamas was wiling to consider was

a truce, not a peace, with the underlying intention of renewing the fight when conditions were favorable.

Israel got peace treaties with two of its neighbors. The other two are currently in no state to sign and uphold any serious

agreement (refers to Lebanon and Syria). The Palestinians are far from presenting a cohesive stand on peace efforts, but

of course, this is conveniently ignored by many posters.

Jingthing · July 31, 2014

Listen to Netanhanyu's mouthpiece mark ragrev say "Its not clear why israel hit the UN school " and then "hamas were in the area" .They are firing mortar shells in civilian areas which is a "war crime" as international law defines. It will be time for the 21st century version of the nuremberg trials.

Always with the Nazi comparisons ...

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Morch · July 31, 2014

I beg to differ. One man's showing is another man's obfuscation.

You fail to mention the numerous IDF killings and assassinations over many months and years, which may account for numerous rockets fired in frustration at Israel.

If you follow your own link you will find 2 rockets fired in early June, one on 1st one on 14th, which is exactly what I said. If this current invasion (with over 1200 Palestinian and 53 Israeli soldiers dead) was all about Israel wanting to Stop the Rockets, they had more or less already achieved that on June 12 when the teens were kidnapped.

I agree that there are often complex reasons behind a conflict starting. There had also been recent targeted killings of Palestinians by IDF in May and June, and the cold blooded murder of 2 Palestinian teens in Beitunia on May 15. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beitunia_killings

But the incident that lit the blue touch paper was the kidnapping of the 3 teens, and Netanyahu's claim on 15th June "Hamas is responsible".

So while agreeing that conflicts are started by complex reasons, the only things cited are specific violent incidents.

The underlying conditions which led to the current hostilities were detailed in quite a few posts all over these topics,

continuing to treat them as secondary to one specific incident or another hints at either a very simplified view of the

situation or at some inherent bias.

Yes indeed I have an inherent bias. As I have shown repeatedly above...Israel started this current round of hostilities; you have not proven otherwise.

No.

Repeating something ad nauseam, while ignoring counter arguments and facts is not the same as proving.

I (and others) have provided a some details explanations on underlying conditions leading to this mess, and provided

links. The insistence that this is all about specific violent incidents etc. is still bogus.

Morch · July 31, 2014

The land that Israel has stolen is everything outside of the pre 1967 borders.

"Stolen" from whom? Israel conquered that land, from countries making war on them, that were also occupying it and the Palestinians refused the UN deal that would have made it theirs. NO ONE owns that land right now.

In the 21st century it is illegal to conquer and colonize land displacing the existing inhabitants.

You invoke the 1947 UN resolution to partition Palestine, but you neglect to mention the hundreds of UN resolutions since then that Israel has ignored. In particular Resolution 242 which called upon Israel to withdraw its forces from land claimed by other parties in 1967 war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

If we don't respect international law we have anarchy.

Seems like obeying international law on this front wasn't such a big issue when Jordan and Egypt controlled lands

promised the Palestinians by the UN. And of course, the Palestinians themselves disregarded the UN resolution,

only to regret it later on, when things did not work out as planned. Hamas is still not into accepting it, by the way.

And oh....how do Arab countries hosting Palestinian refugees are doing on the international law and human rights

when it comes to the Palestinians within their borders?

Jingthing · July 31, 2014

Oh we can have open season with videos and images that will show the zionists for what that are. Notice how the apologists for the killers of 1300 civilians have nothing to say other than the same government line. defend your buddies they will need it.Go sign up with the IDF

By Zionists, meaning JEWS.

Kalebiran · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

Jingthing · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

The one tiny Jewish state in the world, that is, which the vast majority of Jews (a tiny minority compared to Muslims) in the world support it's Zionist existence. Many are Jews without being religious.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Jingthing

Asiantravel · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

I don't think it's correct to say all Jews. I remember Ahmadinejad being interviewed on BBC or Al Jazeera when he was still president and he reckoned there are only about 20,000 or so Zionists in the whole of Israel and USA who he considered to be the real problem.

Pattszero · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

The one tiny Jewish state in the world, that is, which the vast majority of Jews (a tiny minority compared to Muslims) in the world support it's Zionist existence. Many are Jews without being religious.

My Jewish pals are beyond appalled.

This is a disaster for Israel.

Jingthing · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

I don't think it's correct to say all Jews. I remember Ahmadinejad being interviewed on BBC or Al Jazeera when he was still president and he reckoned there are only about 20,000 or so Zionists in the whole of Israel and USA who he considered to be the real problem.

Thanks for reminding of us of that disgusting holocaust denier.

Jingthing · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

The one tiny Jewish state in the world, that is, which the vast majority of Jews (a tiny minority compared to Muslims) in the world support it's Zionist existence. Many are Jews without being religious.

My Jewish pals are beyond appalled.

This is a disaster for Israel.

I can understand. The antisemites all over the world are coming out from under their rocks. All Jews are targets regardless of their political views.

Pattszero · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

The one tiny Jewish state in the world, that is, which the vast majority of Jews (a tiny minority compared to Muslims) in the world support it's Zionist existence. Many are Jews without being religious.

My Jewish pals are beyond appalled.

This is a disaster for Israel.

I can understand. The antisemites all over the world are coming out from under their rocks. All Jews are targets regardless of their political views.

They are appalled at the actions of Israel.

Jingthing · July 31, 2014

They are appalled at the actions of Israel.

I can understand that. It is natural for Jews to care about Israel, whether supporting or opposing current government policy. I would say to them if they don't live in Israel with the rockets and the terror tunnels maybe they should consider why it is that the vast majority of Israelis DO support the current military action. It's easy to be a liberal from afar, not so easy up close.

Pattszero · July 31, 2014

My Jewish pals are beyond appalled.

This is a disaster for Israel.

They are appalled at the actions of Israel.

...but not by the mass executions of ISIS and the jihadis...

everyone holds Israel to the highest standards possible.

...when muslims do massacre after massacre the world looks away..?

I can assure you that my Jewish friends, and I, are equally appalled by ISIS and the Jihadits as you put it.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Pattszero

Morch · July 31, 2014

The state of Israel. I dont need to hide behind a religion as some do.

I don't think it's correct to say all Jews. I remember Ahmadinejad being interviewed on BBC or Al Jazeera when he was still president and he reckoned there are only about 20,000 or so Zionists in the whole of Israel and USA who he considered to be the real problem.

And he would be a qualified and objective source, of course.

There is a lot of misconception evident on this topics as to people who consider themselves being Zionist.

As far as Israelis go (barring Arab Israelis and orthodox Jews), most would term themselves as Zionist, even if the meaning

of the word would hold different imperatives and connotations for different groups. This does not mean that they all hold a

right wing political position.

Asiantravel · July 31, 2014

Oh we can have open season with videos and images that will show the zionists for what that are. Notice how the apologists for the killers of 1300 civilians have nothing to say other than the same government line. defend your buddies they will need it.Go sign up with the IDF

By Zionists, meaning JEWS.

what do you think of this Israeli citizen ?

"He was once brainwashed by Zionist propaganda. He learned the truth about the Zionist entity that is israel and now speaks about the truth of israel. In this lecture he clears up myths about israel and exposes israel. Keep in mind he is a Jew. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKGA48MptIY&feature=player_detailpage

Morch · July 31, 2014

They are appalled at the actions of Israel.

I can understand that. It is natural for Jews to care about Israel, whether supporting or opposing current government policy. I would say to them if they don't live in Israel with the rockets and the terror tunnels maybe they should consider why it is that the vast majority of Israelis DO support the current military action. It's easy to be a liberal from afar, not so easy up close.

The support for the IDF action in Israel is not wholly related to people's political leanings during more peaceful times.

Them high support rate figures include many a liberal and left winger. Many others who vote the same are fighting in

Gaza as well.

Morch · July 31, 2014

Oh we can have open season with videos and images that will show the zionists for what that are. Notice how the apologists for the killers of 1300 civilians have nothing to say other than the same government line. defend your buddies they will need it.Go sign up with the IDF

By Zionists, meaning JEWS.

what do you think of this Israeli citizen ?

"He was once brainwashed by Zionist propaganda. He learned the truth about the Zionist entity that is israel and now speaks about the truth of israel. In this lecture he clears up myths about israel and exposes israel. Keep in mind he is a Jew. "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKGA48MptIY&feature=player_detailpage

I think it goes to show that Israel allows for a plurality of views.

Ilan Pappe is far left wing, as Israeli politics go, and is part of the New Historians thing.

Having Israelis and Jews express dissent and criticism of Israel and its government is hardly a new phenomenon,

a rare occurrence, or even news. When one manages to find a Palestinian expressing similar dissent of his own

side - now, that's interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Papp%C3%A9

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

kblaze · July 31, 2014

Again, there are forces on both sides that really don't want peace or aren't willing to pay the price of peace anyway. It is total idiocy to solely blame either side. But for now, Israel really must do what they must do to repel the terrorist Hamas threat in Gaza.

Ah yes. The "terrorist threat". You can't have a constructive discussion unless you acknowledge that there are other items on the agenda.

Coming from someone who insists that the paramount issue is real estate rights, while paying cursory attention to other problematic issues, this is quite rich.

LoL. You talk like East Jerusalem, E1, and the countless other Israeli Govt Endorsed settlements aren't the key issue.

kblaze · July 31, 2014

My Jewish pals are beyond appalled.

This is a disaster for Israel.

They are appalled at the actions of Israel.

...but not by the mass executions of ISIS and the jihadis...

everyone holds Israel to the highest standards possible.

...when muslims do massacre after massacre the world looks away..?

Don't deflect onto other issues. Thats a old trick.

No other country calls their army "The Most Moral in the World"

No other country receives as much as aid from the world's superpower.

They deserve the spotlight, period.

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