Effects of new Out/in visa regulations on teachers

[wayned]

How will the new out/in visa regulations affect teachers, especially those who work for "agencies" that also front as "language schools"? Many have no intentions of ever providing the teacher with the proper documentation, qualified or not, and send them on the constant back to back visa runs because the paperwork is not ready. The agency doesn't care as they are "warm body" suppliers and, in the past, the schools don't care as they are supplied with a "qualified" teacher.

My friend is the head of the English Department of a local government school that uses an agency. There are currently two teachers, that started in May, that are on visa exempt entries with promises that from the agency that they work for that they will get the proper paperwork soon. Right! He3's not worried because the agency will provide a new "warm body" if they leave.

Been there, done that, many years ago. It will be interesting and a rude awakening for some!

[Loaded]

Schools will have to provide non-imm Bs and work permits promptly or they won't have foreign teachers. It's that simple. Unlicensed schools/agencies and schools reluctant to provide visas/wps will close down. This is good news.

[Scott]

We have lost two teachers due to the visa situation. One had been on a few back-to-back visa runs because the school was new and the paperwork was not done. On her last visa run, she was given only a few days (3 or 7--not sure) and she decided to leave Thailand. A big loss, since she was a good teacher.

The 2nd one had worked in Thailand at another school. After he resigned, he had to leave the country, came back in. He was hired by us, but had to get another visa before his paperwork would be ready. He was denied entry coming back from Malaysia and has now returned to his home country. His loss is quite significant because he had a full Teacher's License in Thailand (and his home country) and was also an excellent teacher.

Part of the problem is that good, qualified teachers can reasonably easily go elsewhere. The less-than-stellar people who have worked the visa system will be replacing a lot of them.

There is a limit to how fast the paperwork can be done, especially, if the applicant has to take a TOEIC.

[aidenai]

The 2nd one had worked in Thailand at another school. After he resigned, he had to leave the country, came back in. He was hired by us, but had to get another visa before his paperwork would be ready. He was denied entry coming back from Malaysia and has now returned to his home country.

Sorry to read about this. Was there a special reason for him not to apply for a 60 days tourist visa while applying for a new job?

[96tehtarp]

The 2nd one had worked in Thailand at another school. After he resigned, he had to leave the country, came back in. He was hired by us, but had to get another visa before his paperwork would be ready. He was denied entry coming back from Malaysia and has now returned to his home country.

Sorry to read about this. Was there a special reason for him not to apply for a 60 days tourist visa while applying for a new job?

"He was denied entry coming back from Malaysia"

That's a pity.

Was he denied entry on a tourist visa or an exempt entry?

Did he stay on and remain on the Malaysian side long enough to plead his case, or at least try to take it up the ladder to a section chief? I'd like to think that if he had been able to provide a little more documentation he would have been let in. What happened to him is a shame.

[Scott]

I don't actually know. I wasn't there. He apparently got a Tourist Visa in Penang, but was told he could not enter. He had one in/out. He has since returned to his home country.

He's a pretty straight forward person, but I don't know if there were any other complications that could have affected it.

I will pursue it with him further. If he wishes to return, we may be able to get him his non-B in his home country.

[wayned]

My OP wasn't meant to be negative as there are many qualified teachers out there that just will be caught up in the interpretation of the regugations of the new rules, but there are others, including agencies, that deserve what they get. Unfortunately the agencies will just go to Kho san raod and recruit another warm body for another month to fulfill their contract with the school and the school won't care..

It was just a "heads up" and it seems that some are suffering alraedy.

Edited July 15, 2014 by wayned

[Loaded]

If a teacher arrived without a visa, they'd receive 30 days visa-exempt permission to stay. They could then visit a Thai consulate or embassy to obtain a 60-day tourist visa. this visa can be extended for 30 days in-country (double this for a double entry). This is 4 - 7 months before they need to obtain a non-immigrant B visa.

Schools need to start processing paperwork before probation periods end.

I don't see a major problem unless teachers have been holidaying for months before looking for work.

[Scott]

We start processing the paperwork as soon as a person is hired, whether they are working at the time or not. We have people who have interviewed in March and they have the visa and work permit when they start in May -- I admit that is very rare. We would never wait until probation is over.

I foresee a number of problems, including a reduction in the number of applicants.

A while ago, I ran an ad for a new teacher, the emails arrived at the rate of between 70 - 100 a day for the first few days. Granted, most of these could be weeded out quickly and it included people not currently in Thailand. But the pool of employable and available applicants would be about 20 - 25 (and I could be very picky).

The last time I advertised, there were 10 responses the first day and it dropped off precipitously each subsequent day. The salary and benefits, by the way, are on par with most other schools.

I have set up numerous interviews and the applicants have not shown up. I have made contact with a few who simply found a school with a more convenient location.

Thailand has long operated on the premise that the large pool of applicants makes the selection process less rigorous. The Thai admin in the past thought nothing of dismissing teachers for relatively minor things and for subjective matters. They have long operated on the premise that if they hire 10 teachers maybe 2 or 3 will be OK. The rest they can fire.

That management strategy may not be the best at this point in time.

[Eddy B]

This sounds to me like the schools are only hurting themselves and most importantly the students for not being on the ball with helping teachers to obtain their visa's and work permits in an allotted time. This obviously leads to the teachers having to run to the nearest border( losing class time) and then putting them in the situation where they maybe be stuck in another country with no way to re-enter. A very sad situation for the hopes of Thai students gaining education from foreign teacher.

[richard10365]

I wonder if teachers will see a wage increase because of this. In theory, if enough teachers leave, wages should increase.

Possible wage increase for Foreign English Teachers in Thailand.pdf

[Scott]

This sounds to me like the schools are only hurting themselves and most importantly the students for not being on the ball with helping teachers to obtain their visa's and work permits in an allotted time. This obviously leads to the teachers having to run to the nearest border( losing class time) and then putting them in the situation where they maybe be stuck in another country with no way to re-enter. A very sad situation for the hopes of Thai students gaining education from foreign teacher.

We have to get the approval from the Ministry of Education. The MOE writes a letter requesting the consulate/embassy to issue the non-immigrant B. We cannot make them issue a letter any faster. In one instance, the person who writes and approves the letter was in Europe. When asked when that officer would be back, we were told "we don't know". That was a few years ago, but the letter did not arrive for over 2 months.

The Visa personnel where I work, I very well trained and once the documentation is given to them, it is off for approval within a day or two. I don't know how it can be done much faster than that.

[Eddy B]

Well about time the MOE sort their crap system out and have people on hand who are able to deal with signing off on paper work when the boss is away jetsetting! Surely their must be more than one person who can process the signing off of documents? If not their is the flaw straight away. I am not blaming you Scott or your school but many schools are just a complete shambles when it comes to helping their teachers get the relevant paper work ready. Schools should be visited by the MOE and Immigration so that all Thai persons dealing with non-Thai labour need to get a valid visa. Most Thai's think we just walk in with money growing on trees and that includes Thai teachers too, with no idea of what hurdles we have to jump through to be able to stay in this country legally.

[wilcopops]

Schools will have to provide non-imm Bs and work permits promptly or they won't have foreign teachers. It's that simple. Unlicensed schools/agencies and schools reluctant to provide visas/wps will close down. This is good news.

not for the teachers who have believed that they will eventually get a visa and permit. They will have to leave the country, may even be black listed and unable to return. If they apply for a B visa they may be turned down as a result..

in the short term - i.e. next term, it could lead to a dramatic shortfall in teachers at many schools. This cold be followed by a large amount of extra work for immigration and dept of labour too as schools suddenly demand permits and visas ASAP.....are they expecting this?

[garyinhuahin]

Chaos in the short term. Hopefully, the longer term effects will be more positive.

[gp2002]

We start processing the paperwork as soon as a person is hired, whether they are working at the time or not. We have people who have interviewed in March and they have the visa and work permit when they start in May -- I admit that is very rare. We would never wait until probation is over.

I foresee a number of problems, including a reduction in the number of applicants.

A while ago, I ran an ad for a new teacher, the emails arrived at the rate of between 70 - 100 a day for the first few days. Granted, most of these could be weeded out quickly and it included people not currently in Thailand. But the pool of employable and available applicants would be about 20 - 25 (and I could be very picky).

The last time I advertised, there were 10 responses the first day and it dropped off precipitously each subsequent day. The salary and benefits, by the way, are on par with most other schools.

I have set up numerous interviews and the applicants have not shown up. I have made contact with a few who simply found a school with a more convenient location.

Thailand has long operated on the premise that the large pool of applicants makes the selection process less rigorous. The Thai admin in the past thought nothing of dismissing teachers for relatively minor things and for subjective matters. They have long operated on the premise that if they hire 10 teachers maybe 2 or 3 will be OK. The rest they can fire.

That management strategy may not be the best at this point in time.

Scott......what kind of school are you at......language school, government, bilingual, international?

[Suradit69]

I've taught and been an administrator at the secondary and tertiary level in several other countries. In each case interviews (by video conference call or with someone sent to interview candidates), documentation review, official approval, signatures, immigration submissions and visa approval took several months the first time around. You waited. When everything was finally sorted out, then you submitted your passport for the visa and you were sent air tickets and travel expenses, etc.

If the system becomes more difficult here than in the past, the schools and recruiters will need to adjust and the wages & training for local staff improved rather than relying on teachers whose only qualifications are a detectable pulse, a fair complexion and an absence of better opportunities. Given the appalling results of so many students as reported on TV from time to time, it's hard to imagine what all these supposed good teachers were contributing.

I am guessing, and it's only a guess based on past experiences, a lot of the supposed "good" teachers were affable, well-liked and no more productive than anyone else who pitched up looking for a paid holiday in an "exotic" location.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Suradit69

[darren84310]

With only about 375 million native English speakers in the world and around 7 billion people wanting to learn English, just how does Thailand think it will attract the native English teachers with degrees, TEFL qualifications, the right age, colour, etc....

The easy way would be to open up the door to anyone who could pass a standards test, possibly commission the British Council to set up a test that the applicant pays for and will be comprehensive enough to sort out the good from the bad.

Another way would be to double or treble the salaries on offer.

[Hardy99]

Witout proper Visa will not get a work Permit..

without work Permit NOT ALLOWED to work (also for "teachers")

The Basic reason about he Visa-run-crack down is illegal workers (Thai Immigration says)!

Edited July 15, 2014 by Hardy99

[Kitbaikitmah]

I worked with NAVA in Chiang Mai, Visas are treated very seriously...the company honours their teacher's legal status and its legal commiment to client schools.

The process:

Apply;

Interview;

Demo lesson;

Sign the contract;

Office sorts out, oraganizes and checks your paperwork for your new visa;

You take a trip to the Lao capitial to convert your tourist visa. You return as a legal working employee;

Arrive in Chiang Mai, then off to get your work permit;

Within a week you are a legal, working and earning teacher.

Btw ....5KB admin costs are held as bond from your first months salary. If you complete your contact, all is refunded. An honest and sincere company.

Sorry, can't commement on direct school employment...my experiance with Nava CM was superb

[mooris6]

Guys it's pretty simple what should happen. First of all there should be fewer teachers available because teachers without degrees will not be able to keep legal status in Thailand. Doing visa runs or multiple double entry tourist visas are no longer options because even with a double entry tourist visa we now know you maybe refused when re entering Thailand. For the brave teachers without degrees, the black market fake degrees business will start to flourish. Hopefully salaries will go up for the lack of teachers but maybe after some review if the Junta wants to keep the same visa regulations, future teacher credentials maybe lowered to accommodate for the imminent teacher shortage. Agencies will have to get off their asses because it won't be possible to send teachers on visa runs while waiting for paperwork or a probation periods to end. If the agencies customers as in the schools don't co operate with the agencies then they will be without teachers. In turn we will soon see many teaching agencies go under because many are just too lazy to deal with visas and work permits and they are scared to bother the schools for the paperwork required in case it causes a problem for them to lose the contract. For example when the school simply does not have the proper paper work to hire a teacher but has been doing so under the old way for years. Legit ED visas are options if you plan to study but who knows what's next. Maybe school inspections, especially language schools who hire part time teachers and don't supply them with a second work permit because we all know that you can't work part time on your full time jobs work permit. You must obtain a second work permit for your part time. It then gets listed in your existing work permit blue book. These are my thoughts. I hope the salary bit comes true!

[Tatsujin]

The visa issue for foreign teachers here in Thailand is one of the many problem areas that will result in less and less teachers working here every year. They need to sort the visa situation out, the qualifications that are required, and most importantly the salaries . . . not many good teachers are going to work (or continue to work) in Thailand when they can go to literally any other country (more easily with visa's etc that are done for them) AND earn more (by a factor of 200-500% above Thai salaries).

[toooa]

I've taught and been an administrator at the secondary and tertiary level in several other countries. In each case interviews (by video conference call or with someone sent to interview candidates), documentation review, official approval, signatures, immigration submissions and visa approval took several months the first time around. You waited. When everything was finally sorted out, then you submitted your passport for the visa and you were sent air tickets and travel expenses, etc.

If the system becomes more difficult here than in the past, the schools and recruiters will need to adjust and the wages & training for local staff improved rather than relying on teachers whose only qualifications are a detectable pulse, a fair complexion and an absence of better opportunities. Given the appalling results of so many students as reported on TV from time to time, it's hard to imagine what all these supposed good teachers were contributing.

I am guessing, and it's only a guess based on past experiences, a lot of the supposed "good" teachers were affable, well-liked and no more productive than anyone else who pitched up looking for a paid holiday in an "exotic" location.

So what are you saying? That local staff (Thais?) will be used as NES in English and EP programs should real native speakers be hard to come by? Just pay 'em more and train'em better? Not gonna work, at least not if you want it to be a real opportunity for kids to be exposed to native English...and isn't that the point?

I detect an air of superiority wafting over the high speed...."given the appalling results....it's hard to imagine what all these supposed good teachers were contributing..." blah blah....Aren't we being a tad judgmental given the variables at play here? In any case, no one said that teaching was brain surgery, but at the same time Mr. “I’ve taught and been an administrator” isn't this essentially the same game you're in?

Making sweeping statements designed to bolster your ego to the detriment of others makes you look like a man who needs a hug.

Condolences on your condition...

Edited July 15, 2014 by toooa

[Lammbock]

If the rules to obtain a WP for foreigner wouldn't be so ridicules more people would legally work here.

[Scott]

Scott......what kind of school are you at......language school, government, bilingual, international?

I coordinate for several schools, they are private and include mini-English programs, bilingual and international programs. They are also located in several different provinces, so I deal with a number of immigration & Labor offices. Actually, I should say the Thai visa personnel deal with them directly most of the time.

Suradit, you are being a little hard on foreign teachers. I can assure you that very few foreign teachers have much say over which books will be used, what the curriculum will include and how much exposure the students will get to English. If you think that teach anywhere from 30 - 60 students a few hours a week, with nothing more than your voice and a chalk board is going to do much, you are sadly mistaken.

Language requires exposure and use -- lots of use. Not an hour in a classroom listening to a teacher.

[Yooyung]

I've taught and been an administrator at the secondary and tertiary level in several other countries. In each case interviews (by video conference call or with someone sent to interview candidates), documentation review, official approval, signatures, immigration submissions and visa approval took several months the first time around. You waited. When everything was finally sorted out, then you submitted your passport for the visa and you were sent air tickets and travel expenses, etc.

If the system becomes more difficult here than in the past, the schools and recruiters will need to adjust and the wages & training for local staff improved rather than relying on teachers whose only qualifications are a detectable pulse, a fair complexion and an absence of better opportunities. Given the appalling results of so many students as reported on TV from time to time, it's hard to imagine what all these supposed good teachers were contributing.

I am guessing, and it's only a guess based on past experiences, a lot of the supposed "good" teachers were affable, well-liked and no more productive than anyone else who pitched up looking for a paid holiday in an "exotic" location.

The problem is that most Thai English teachers CANNOT speak English. I say this with literally more than a decade of working with them. The students in the high school I am currently working in are a product of this incompetence. I have started this year at another govt high school, the kids are nice BUT at first they could not answer basic questions about themselves. I am trying to fix years, and years of VERY poor teaching of my language. The kids know that the Thai teachers are uselss, thats why they come to me and ask me how to say something in English, that they want to translate from Thai. I can actually teach them how to form sentences in a way that DOES NOT MAKE THEM SOUND LIKE A THREE YEAR OLD....

Thailand has the right to ask for well educated teachers but it needs to also sort out its own mess...especially when it comes to Thai English teachers. The only reason that there are Philipinos working here is that even they are better than the Thais. In the ideal world it would be a happy mix of good Thai English teachers and native speakers. This isnt going to happen anytime soon. Ask for me to get a Masters Degree in education?...dont expect me to work for 35,000 - 45,000 per month. I have a degree and I have a TEFL cert. I also have a lot of experience. For this I will put up with the not so hot salaries

I hope that getting rid of some of the long term backpacker type of teachers will equate to better pay and conditions. I am not going to hold my breath.

[joshstiles]

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Scott......what kind of school are you at......language school, government, bilingual, international?

I coordinate for several schools, they are private and include mini-English programs, bilingual and international programs. They are also located in several different provinces, so I deal with a number of immigration & Labor offices. Actually, I should say the Thai visa personnel deal with them directly most of the time.

Suradit, you are being a little hard on foreign teachers. I can assure you that very few foreign teachers have much say over which books will be used, what the curriculum will include and how much exposure the students will get to English. If you think that teach anywhere from 30 - 60 students a few hours a week, with nothing more than your voice and a chalk board is going to do much, you are sadly mistaken.

Language requires exposure and use -- lots of use. Not an hour in a classroom listening to a teacher.

touche'

[smotherb]

Let me get this straight. If a prospective teacher gets the paperwork for the 90-day non-B from her agency/school, doesn't that give them 90 days before the work permit paperwork is needed? Shouldn't the last 30 days of that 90-days be enough time to process the work permit papers and the first 60 days would suffice as a probationary period for the school/agency?

Have I missed something?

[gp2002]

Scott......what kind of school are you at......language school, government, bilingual, international?

I coordinate for several schools, they are private and include mini-English programs, bilingual and international programs. They are also located in several different provinces, so I deal with a number of immigration & Labor offices. Actually, I should say the Thai visa personnel deal with them directly most of the time.

Thanks for the reply.

FYI.... I am a Physical Education teacher looking for a new position.

[mooris6]

Let me get this straight. If a prospective teacher gets the paperwork for the 90-day non-B from her agency/school, doesn't that give them 90 days before the work permit paperwork is needed? Shouldn't the last 30 days of that 90-days be enough time to process the work permit papers and the first 60 days would suffice as a probationary period for the school/agency?

Have I missed something?

No you have not missed anything. That is the idea but many schools and agencies would not even do that. Paperwork is so terrible, especially for private schools. If the teacher was awful or the teacher quit all their work was for nothing. The previous laws aloud for them to send the teacher for a tourist visa until the probation was over but now it's changed.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand