NEVER speak Thai in English Class

[ajarnmarc]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The op sounds like he is one of these near perfect people that has never made a mistake in his life.

Any chance we could observe you teaching ? Let's see how you fair!!


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

How do I sound perfect?

I have made thousands of mistakes in my life.

I gave teaching up - amazing how I lasted so long, 13 years. Most don't last that long.

Could probably still give you a few tips if you have the humility to listen.

It's probably good that you did...

With a statement of "I gave teaching up"

When it should read: I gave up teaching...

Now normally this wouldn't be something I'd highlight,

but since you're the OP,

and putting another teacher in question;

I find it slightly interesting.

Especially since you declare you taught for 13 years.

[Neeranam]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The op sounds like he is one of these near perfect people that has never made a mistake in his life.

Any chance we could observe you teaching ? Let's see how you fair!!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

How do I sound perfect?

I have made thousands of mistakes in my life.

I gave teaching up - amazing how I lasted so long, 13 years. Most don't last that long.

Could probably still give you a few tips if you have the humility to listen.

It's probably good that you did...

With a statement of "I gave teaching up"

When it should read: I gave up teaching...

Now normally this wouldn't be something I'd highlight,

but since you're the OP,

and putting another teacher in question;

I find it slightly interesting.

Especially since you declare you taught for 13 years.

Have you any idea how stupid and arrogant calling yourself ajarnmarc is. It's kinda like calling yourself khun marc.

Normally i wouldn't highlight this but since you are having a go at me....unjustly

[lostinisaan]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The op sounds like he is one of these near perfect people that has never made a mistake in his life.

Any chance we could observe you teaching ? Let's see how you fair!!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

How do I sound perfect?

I have made thousands of mistakes in my life.

I gave teaching up - amazing how I lasted so long, 13 years. Most don't last that long.

Could probably still give you a few tips if you have the humility to listen.

It's probably good that you did...

With a statement of "I gave teaching up"

When it should read: I gave up teaching...

Now normally this wouldn't be something I'd highlight,

but since you're the OP,

and putting another teacher in question;

I find it slightly interesting.

Especially since you declare you taught for 13 years.

I totally agree with you.

How can anybody explain on an open forum, that a guy teaching at a language school mispronounced a word in Thai, while he doesn’t even know his own mother tongue properly?

Okay, nobody cares that you’re German. Which would explain the sentence structure. ( Ich gab das Unterrichten auf.)

Life’s too short for such baby Kee. And that smells bad, I’m telling you and me.

[Neeranam]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The op sounds like he is one of these near perfect people that has never made a mistake in his life.

Any chance we could observe you teaching ? Let's see how you fair!!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

How do I sound perfect?

I have made thousands of mistakes in my life.

I gave teaching up - amazing how I lasted so long, 13 years. Most don't last that long.

Could probably still give you a few tips if you have the humility to listen.

It's probably good that you did...

With a statement of "I gave teaching up"

When it should read: I gave up teaching...

Now normally this wouldn't be something I'd highlight,

but since you're the OP,

and putting another teacher in question;

I find it slightly interesting.

Especially since you declare you taught for 13 years.

I totally agree with you.

How can anybody explain on an open forum, that a guy teaching at a language school mispronounced a word in Thai, while he doesn’t even know his own mother tongue properly?

Okay, nobody cares that you’re German. Which would explain the sentence structure. ( Ich gab das Unterrichten auf.)

Life’s too short for such baby Kee. And that smells bad, I’m telling you and me.

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/630/02/

Not that I expect you to know what a separable phrasal verb is.

[Kasset Tak]

I mix and match but I try to only use Thai to explain. I try to use speaking, writing, drawing and body language when I explain because I want the students to try to think. But it's hard, I have many students that don't listen and even have dificult to understand what they are thought in Thai!

Today I where co teaching in layer production (egg), the Thai teacher first thought in Thai then I thought the same in English and still they did not understand even when the Thai teacher tried to explain that 1st week means sabtha laekt or sabtha ti nung in Thai, it took 10 min before the students understood!?!?!

[janejira]

This is one of the topics that was brought in the interview where I currently teach. It was decided then that the policy would be that I do not speak Thai during working hours-- in or out of the classroom with both staff and students. This was then extended to be while on the premises with students (more lenient with staff, especially after hours).

Most of my students know that I can converse in Thai, but I don't respond to any Thai in my lessons. If they want to communicate with me, it has to be in English. I believe this is how where I work wants it.

We have Thai/English dictionaries on the table and a picture dictionary. If the vocabulary is particularly difficult, I will provide a small glossary English to Thai for my lower level students and English to English for my more advanced students.

[lostinisaan]

I mix and match but I try to only use Thai to explain. I try to use speaking, writing, drawing and body language when I explain because I want the students to try to think. But it's hard, I have many students that don't listen and even have dificult to understand what they are thought in Thai!

Today I where co teaching in layer production (egg), the Thai teacher first thought in Thai then I thought the same in English and still they did not understand even when the Thai teacher tried to explain that 1st week means sabtha laekt or sabtha ti nung in Thai, it took 10 min before the students understood!?!?!

Today I where co teaching in layer production (egg), the Thai teacher first thought in Thai then I thought the same in English and still they did not understand even when the Thai teacher tried to explain that 1st week means sabtha laekt or sabtha ti nung in Thai, it took 10 min before the students understood!?!?!

I'd have thought that the Thai teachers will still think in their language, as well will you do.

Edited July 18, 2014 by lostinisaan

[aidenai]

If you are, you're not there. if you think, it doesn't mean you teach.

[Gandtee]

At my grandsons school the teachers use him to translate for them. I'm not complaining as it will stand him in good stead in later years.

[stubuzz]

Mr Ling from China teaches Chinese conversation in Australia. He has 10 years experience, has actively taken part in life in his new country, he has learnt how to communicate in English at an every day level very well. Mr Ling also has a TCFL (Teaching Chinese as a Foriegn Language) certificate that took him 4 weeks to complete. Mr Ling graduated from shanghai University with a Bachelor of Chinese linguistics. Mr Ling often uses his good communication skills in English to help make his lessons run more smoothly. It also helps with communication in all other aspects of his working life, such as booking time for new and less experienced students that cannot yet speak Chinese very well, speaking to parents of children he teaches about their childrens progress......oh my god, do I need to go on?

Did Mr Ling use Chinese to learn English?

Mr Lee from China teaches Chinese conversation in Australia. He has 10 years experience, does not speak English at all, including with his students. Mr Lee has completed a TCFL as well and he also has a Bachelor of Chinese linguistics from Shanghai University. Mr Lee makes sure ALL communication in English between himself , his students AND himself and the parents of his students ,be done through a qualified interpreter.

Maybe you could cut Mr Lee out and learn with the interpreter .

[lostinisaan]

If you are, you're not there. if you think, it doesn't mean you teach.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been deleted. Please don't call other people names.

Edit: A post criticizing writing style has been deleted. Please don't comment on such matters unless asked to do so by the OP.

[mikecat]

I dont use Thai in the classroom, rarely anyway. I have a Thai Assistant who I used to ask to help with the translation of complicated instructions but this was hard work as usually the instructions that they relayed were wrong. Lesson learnt. Make sure the instructions are not too complicated, secondly improve my communication skills without using Thai. I have found that students soon learn how you work and how to communicate without to much problem. Also I have never met a student who needs to have a wordsearch explained to them. Maybe they exist in prathom 1 or Kindergarten and I dont think I would need to speak Thai to explain it. I have always believed it best to encourage the use of English inside and outside of the classroom although the students like to teach me Thai words whenever they can.

[rajyindee]

P.S. What do the experts say about using F 1 language?

It tends to get a bit racy at times.

[zeichen]

I think the argument is dependent on what the goal of the class, the teaching methodology and approaches to learning as well as the level and aptitude of the students.

For a communicative approach focusing purely on conversation and listening skills of course you would not use Thai. However for most testing prep centers students seem to do much better if the class is taught in the first language. The goal of that isn't communication but understanding how the language works in relation to the 1st language.

Immersion classes for ESL students is great however in an EFL environment it is actually much slower for progress.

The major caveat for using Thai is actually the ability. For those that don't want to learn or just cannot, confusing students in their own language is even worse.

I taught in China and one teacher who was fluent allowed his students to speak in Chinese with each other for 2-3 minutes before working on projects and group work to ensure everyone in the group knew what to do. It was effective for him. however since I don't speak Chinese at all, I didn't do that because I wasn't able to ensure what they were saying was my actual instruction.

The major problem with most TEFL/TESOL/CELTA training is that they focus primarily on the communicative approach and since they are fast paced they need to limit the scope of many educational practices. I had to do 6 months of observed teaching to get my license but for TEFL 8-12 is standard. Personally, I think that most TEFL schools and programs are great for those that have no clue where to begin but overall they are the basic of qualifications and do not ever make someone a master. I would hire someone with 1 year experience over someone with no experience and a TEFL.

The one thing about teaching is that it is not a one size fits all solution. So Never and Always don't have its place. Every class, every lesson and every student can be different.

If teachers find a happy medium between pleasing the boss, appeasing the students and making actual progress that can be quantified and qualified in either formative or summative assessments I say go for it.

[Kasset Tak]

I mix and match but I try to only use Thai to explain. I try to use speaking, writing, drawing and body language when I explain because I want the students to try to think. But it's hard, I have many students that don't listen and even have dificult to understand what they are thought in Thai!

Today I where co teaching in layer production (egg), the Thai teacher first thought in Thai then I thought the same in English and still they did not understand even when the Thai teacher tried to explain that 1st week means sabtha laekt or sabtha ti nung in Thai, it took 10 min before the students understood!?!?!

Today I where co teaching in layer production (egg), the Thai teacher first thought in Thai then I thought the same in English and still they did not understand even when the Thai teacher tried to explain that 1st week means sabtha laekt or sabtha ti nung in Thai, it took 10 min before the students understood!?!?!

I'd have thought that the Thai teachers will still think in their language, as well will you do.

I'm sorry, sometimes I miss the auto correction while writing using my phone! I also have the disadvantage of being dyslexic... And I must also admit that my English have deteriorated while teaching here in Thailand as I basically don't have anyone around me who speaks English, even the two English teachers who work here uses Thai language when they are talking with me!

For the other comment on my post:

I'm not a native speaker. But atleast I understand several different dialects of English and most Thais seems to prefers my dialect compared with Britich English, especially cockney (or Estuary English). I don't teach English language as a subject, I teach agricultural subjects in English.

[Greg Nixon]

I have seen some of the grade 4 English workbooks here in Thailand. They are half in Thai. I can only surmise that if they are using Thai to teach English that the lessons are progressing too quickly. A good rule of thumb for teaching is to teach 10 minutes followed by 40 minutes of student practise.

How much practise did we have to perfect our English language? Our whole life to any given point of time. But it could be worse. In China some children would memorise long lists of English words and their definition but would be unable to use them in a sentence. This was encouraged by their Chinese teachers.

[kinmaew]

I was told off for writing Thai on the blackboard. I thought it would be a help to confirm something but they didn't want that. I kind of see their point just get the kids so used to hearing the English only words and writing and hopefully they should be able to either link this to Thai or understand English independent of their native tongue.

[Yooyung]

I think everybody will agree that over using Thai in the classroom is a bad thing. However, to say NEVER is ridiculous. Fore example, I am teaching in what is called an 'IEP' (Intensive English Program) at a government school. The level of English I quickly discovered when starting there this year is........mmmmm, lets put a positive spin on it, challenging!! Both my M1 and M2 classes are way, way behind the eight ball and I am supposed to help them play catch up. With 'normal' English conversation lessons this isnt so hard. However, I have also been asked to teach them social studies and science. I studied a social science degree so that isnt much of a problem, anyway the level we are talking about is pretty low. As far as the science goes, well, its mostly vocab and sentence structures that I design based on a book that is WAY above their heads. The point is that in both of these subjects their English isnt up to speed with the work I have been given by the school. What do I do? Do I 'immerse' them in science and social studies....standing at the front of the room parroting "inertia"....."inertia"....while pretending to be a rock...?? I am FORCED to use Thai because the vocab is so alien to them. I am sorry, but with all the other classes I have I dont have time to devise some magic 'immersion' program, and the school sure as hell wont be providing me with one! So, what do I do? Well, I make PowerPoint lessons based on the books that are WAY over their heads, with the help of my wife I translate some of the more challenging words for them. So basically the lessons are about, at least trying to build their vocab, understanding and to practice using the new vocab in sentence structures that they understand.......and I understand!

Its not the ideal situation, but its the reality of the Thai education system. I literally have to use Thai sometimes, if I dont the lessons will come to a complete standstill. I dont overuse it, but if I didnt use it at all the lessons could get extremely frustrating for both the students and myself. I dont have time to play charades for every single new word they come across. Its totally unrealistic to talk about immersion within the context of a Thai government high school! A lot of classes I see only once per week! A lot of the classes in the non IEP have 40 + students. I have to do what I can to get by and make the lessons work.

And by the way, I did a TEFL course as well...13 years ago. They told me not to use Thai as well. The course was ok, but it did NOT prepare me for what teaching is really like in Thailand. I meet a lot of new teachers, fresh from their course and most dont last long. There is much, much more to teaching here than practicing your grammar and learning how to make a worksheet. In reality just being able to suffer the B.S. that Thai schools throw at you, the disorganisation, the unreasonable requests....the lack of curriculum, the shocking level of English of Thai teachers, being told to write a lesson plan for the whole year, with 3 days notice!! I could go on. Suffice to say that if I could not speak any Thai, my life would be a lot harder, not only in the classroom but outside it as well. Infact, one of the reasons I have lasted here is that I can understand what is going on around me. I can understand when the kids are confused and why they are confused. This is a tool that I see no negative sides to. If speaking a little Thai to help explain something is so wrong......then hang draw and quarter me, cause I am not going to stop!

[Scott]

Years ago, when I taught Science and Social studies, I would get a list of the vocabulary words and have it translated into Thai. I would check with one (or more) of the Thai teachers to make sure it was a correct translation. When we had a new term, I would show the written Thai word to one of the students, who would be allowed to say it so that everyone understood. Once everyone understood the term, it was only used in English.

So much depends on the age of the children. With young learners, there was almost never a need for Thai in the classroom. The students sometimes asked things in Thai and I would respond in English. It didn't take long for them to ask in English as well. Older children and adults without a foundation in the language require more native language assistance. I can't give that to them very easily, but sometimes a brighter student can lend a hand. The goal should be to minimize the use of the native language.

Our school gets quite upset with any foreign teacher using Thai. And there isn't much need since the programs are bilingual or international, so the students get pretty grounded in the language. New students coming in who are older have a much more difficult time. You really can't teach a new concept in a foreign language. If they understand the concept (as in Science and Math), then a teacher can reinforce what the students know and how it is said/done in English. Until they are functional in a language, you can't really teach a new concept. A teacher can use the subject to teach English, but any new concept might not gel in the students' minds.

[Neeranam]

^

That seems fair enough, IF you can speak Thai well enough.

One thing I find useful when telling a

Thai how to pronounce a word is to transcribe it Thai script. I often do this with my wife.

One thing I've NEARLY never done is spoken Thai with my children although I speak Thai to my wife. I worked in a university with 2 guys with PhDs in bilingual language acquisition from English unis. They advised I always speak English and she always Thai.

Of course the odd word is spoken by mistake or if there is no real translation or I get lazy or frustrated.

[lostinisaan]

I think everybody will agree that over using Thai in the classroom is a bad thing. However, to say NEVER is ridiculous. Fore example, I am teaching in what is called an 'IEP' (Intensive English Program) at a government school. The level of English I quickly discovered when starting there this year is........mmmmm, lets put a positive spin on it, challenging!! Both my M1 and M2 classes are way, way behind the eight ball and I am supposed to help them play catch up. With 'normal' English conversation lessons this isnt so hard. However, I have also been asked to teach them social studies and science. I studied a social science degree so that isnt much of a problem, anyway the level we are talking about is pretty low. As far as the science goes, well, its mostly vocab and sentence structures that I design based on a book that is WAY above their heads. The point is that in both of these subjects their English isnt up to speed with the work I have been given by the school. What do I do? Do I 'immerse' them in science and social studies....standing at the front of the room parroting "inertia"....."inertia"....while pretending to be a rock...?? I am FORCED to use Thai because the vocab is so alien to them. I am sorry, but with all the other classes I have I dont have time to devise some magic 'immersion' program, and the school sure as hell wont be providing me with one! So, what do I do? Well, I make PowerPoint lessons based on the books that are WAY over their heads, with the help of my wife I translate some of the more challenging words for them. So basically the lessons are about, at least trying to build their vocab, understanding and to practice using the new vocab in sentence structures that they understand.......and I understand!

Its not the ideal situation, but its the reality of the Thai education system. I literally have to use Thai sometimes, if I dont the lessons will come to a complete standstill. I dont overuse it, but if I didnt use it at all the lessons could get extremely frustrating for both the students and myself. I dont have time to play charades for every single new word they come across. Its totally unrealistic to talk about immersion within the context of a Thai government high school! A lot of classes I see only once per week! A lot of the classes in the non IEP have 40 + students. I have to do what I can to get by and make the lessons work.

And by the way, I did a TEFL course as well...13 years ago. They told me not to use Thai as well. The course was ok, but it did NOT prepare me for what teaching is really like in Thailand. I meet a lot of new teachers, fresh from their course and most dont last long. There is much, much more to teaching here than practicing your grammar and learning how to make a worksheet. In reality just being able to suffer the B.S. that Thai schools throw at you, the disorganisation, the unreasonable requests....the lack of curriculum, the shocking level of English of Thai teachers, being told to write a lesson plan for the whole year, with 3 days notice!! I could go on. Suffice to say that if I could not speak any Thai, my life would be a lot harder, not only in the classroom but outside it as well. Infact, one of the reasons I have lasted here is that I can understand what is going on around me. I can understand when the kids are confused and why they are confused. This is a tool that I see no negative sides to. If speaking a little Thai to help explain something is so wrong......then hang draw and quarter me, cause I am not going to stop!

I remember a thread quite a few moons ago, with the same topic. Using Thai in class, or not. Wouldn’t the perfect foreign teacher be fluent in Thai as well?

To make a long story short, yes, there’s more to it, than just teaching an hour per week, not caring if they understood you, or not.

I also teach “ordinary” classes, where they never had a foreign teacher before. Their level of English in grade six is unbelievable bad.

They threw the books “Let’s go” at them, just a week ago.

These books are pretty good, but only work when you start to teach them in grade one. So I’m making my own worksheets, write the new vocabulary on the board, take a Thai student with a good handwriting and let her/him write the Thai word for it next to the English word.

Before I even start the lesson, I go through each word with them, to make sure that they know what it means. Then I use each word in an easy sentence and ask some questions.

There’re plenty of kids with nil knowledge in English, so it’s my own personal business to find ways to get them interested to learn.

Our EP program with too many students is really a challenge. Yes, as I want them to speak in English, it’s useful to speak most of the time in English.

But understanding what they say and responding to them in their mother tongue, helps them and me a lot.

Then the parents, approaching you and asking you questions, of course in Thai, as most of them don’t speak English. It’s nice if you can explain what homework they’ve got, as it saves you a lot of time and misunderstandings.

Now they know words in English and the right meaning of them, but haven’t yet learned these words in Thai. Which finally leads me to my own personal conclusion.

It is very useful to use Thai in the classroom. I remember my English teacher at high school doing the same. Speeding the process up, by using German as a tool of explaining difficult words in German.

But this has nothing to do with Thai teachers speaking 90 % Thai and expecting their kids to answer in English, with the help of a bamboo stick.

Never say never.

Edited July 19, 2014 by lostinisaan

[Neeranam]

^

That seems fair enough, IF you can speak Thai well enough.

I have a different problem with speaking to my kids' teachers. I will tell them to speak Thai to me. Your students' parents probably aren't so direct.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Neeranam

[brucetefl]

There are basically 2 types of language spoken in the classroom:

Classroom-based Language: Stand up, sit down, turn your books to page 21, go to the doctor because you have been stabbed...

And Lesson-based Language. That comes from the book!

Generally speaking, you only would use L2 for Classroom-based Language if your students knew it already, basically they already knew a lot of English. Most TESOL courses would train you to use hand gestures if you cannot speak the local language. its not that difficult to do.

And, again, generally speaking, you never use L1 when in the Lesson portion of the class. You had the lesson beforehand. You should have had things prepared to model the language and meaning.

[inutil]

Its like all of you forgot those magical rules we all learned on our tefl courses

Grammar Translation: L1

Oral Linguistic: L2 entirely (extreme context dependency)

Communicative: L2 mainly. L1 when necessary (time, speed, clarification, understanding - its pragmatic innit).

Suggestopedia: Have fun!

On top of this we learned the immersive approach... it was lovely:

Bunch o' flash cards. Drill drill.

Crack out your two little dummies to model the grammar pattern.

have class repeat. Then do individuals and teacher, then swapparoo, then student student and finally mix em.

Then an activity to get them using it.

Wheee!

Hated it to be honest. I can see it working in an environment where there arent all that many kids, and theyre reasonably motivated. But its dry, repetitive, dull, and lacks any kind of creative input from the students. Its just drilling by another name. Which is FINE of course, drilling and repetition is the cornerstone of retention, but lets not pretend its some kind of magic bullet. The language CAN be taught by immersion. It can also be taught in every other way as well. You could do exactly what you just did in 1/4 of the time with Grammar translation for example. You dont have to waste time trying to engage individual students for the sake of putting them on the spot a bit and making sure they get their turn. And this means you can offer them another 4 patterns in the time. Sure, they might end up shy or less inclined to use the language outside of a written test, but theyll kill on the test! Horses for courses.

And again none of this even delves into your students actual interests and abilities. In a mixed level class you have other barriers. Do you spend twenty minutes with that one kid who wont pick it up banging out the words over and over while the rest of the class sort of gets on with it? Or do you just think, "screw him, its a waste of time"? Then theres learning types. Is it all just going to be immersive communicative english every class? What about those students who HATE that style and would rather just squirrel in with a book, not talk to people and learn by writing the word down 100 times? Or what about learn the structure of the language first so they understand the rule and how to apply it instead of wasting time trying to 'figure it out' from context? What about those kids who just want a simple answer to a simple question so they can move on efficiently? Im not an auditory learner. Nor am i Kinesthetic. I learn by writing words and sentences down until it sticks. Its a pain, i hate it, but there you go. How you going to motivate me through an immersive model? I want the rule, i want examples, i want the language, but above all i want to write it. The last thing i want is some fake artificial activity where we all ask each other where the bus stop is so i garner some kind of associated memory to help in my retention. I retain nothing. I used to dread the 'right everyone, stand up,' moment in language class. It was a waste of time and just drew attention to my discomfort in using the language.

So be it of course. Speaking is an important part of language learning. But theres the rub, for many people it seems that functional fluency is the target here. Immersion teaching of course helps in that. But its not the ONLY measure of success in language acquisition. And i worry that perhaps people forget there are other benchmarks out there in the drive for immersive approaches. Theres also tests, qualifications and grading. And like it or not, throughout Asia, those tests are almost exclusively based upon writing and translation.

Theres nothing wrong with immersive teaching of course. Theres no reason at all that immersion and grammar translation couldnt work in partial tandem (with formal niceties, and simpler instructions (already learned and drilled), carried out in L2), but this idea that there is only one way does many students a disservice. They dont all benefit from one style. They dont all excel using one approach. You have to mix it up. Which of course is the central target of the communicative model and why you will sometimes want to use L1. If that sacrifices the whole core of the immersive experience, then okay. But again, all of these come with unintended consequences when you put at the front of your ideas the learning styles, methods and motivations of a group of mixed level, mixed ability and mixed motivation students. You cant have both. You can either prioritise the method and its coherence and accept that some students are just going to be alienated by it and not achieve anywhere near their potential, or you can try and adapt as many styles as possible, stay versatile and pragmatic and accept that many students wont learn to their potential. Such is the problem of any mixed group. And we cant, as teachers, pretend this isnt a part of the puzzle here.

Edited July 19, 2014 by inutil

[brucetefl]

Of course there are many ways to teach. Maybe something a bit more important is what ways are effective and which ways are not. Thai teachers use grammar translation. See how well it works?

Of course we should all be reflective teachers--reflecting upon our lessons and deciding what worked (helped the students learn a bit, not made life easier for us) and what didn't.

Edited July 19, 2014 by brucetefl

[inutil]

Again, we both know the Japanese style as well. It works very effectively... For its purpose. It doesnt create fluent speakers, in fact functional fluency, or even survival English is barely existent outside of the classroom environment, but these kids will MURDER any English test you put in front of them. In fact, id dare say they'd destroy almost everyone both here and back home through sheer depth of understanding. It is a legitimate measure of success unfortunately. And i do mean unfortunately from the bottom of my heart. A student taught this method 50 years ago would become a teacher, and be a MASTER of grammar (but couldnt hold a simple conversation in English). They might even go into publishing and regurgitate those same models to deliver those same results in the single most efficient way possible. And the merry go round would continue. Spoken English would be taught by teachers who couldnt speak or pronounce English...

INTERJECTION!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu7IkMVKA5g

For this reason i believe they instituted the JET programme and brought native speakers into the classroom. And now you have the situation where students taught by more immersive, playful, motivational methods are creating the new generation of teachers absolutely DYING to bring out those techniques into the classroom... but hampered by a University entrance exam thats still stuck in the methods from all those years ago. And like it or not, the university entrance exam is the driving force of any genuine changes in method.

Anyway, for me, this isnt about hard battle lines. Its about a complicated environment with an infinity of unintended consequences and what if's . Teaching, as we both know, is an art at the end of the day. Its not a method. There are never easy answers. A rigid adherence to a structure creates consistency, leads to efficiency in delivery and provides clear objectives, goals and boundaries. These are all great things. It costs students though on an individual basis. It can lead to a collapse in motivation and disruption whether through boredom, disinterest, or ability. Students lagging behind can spill into other students nearby and create entire pockets of apathy and disorder if unchecked. But that of course requires time and patience. And since these types of systems are also time hogs themselves, you might need a bit of efficiency in your delivery at times and may have to adopt L1. Which of course undermines the goal and object of immersion learning (now the kids look at you as a translator and instead of listening, wait for someone to tell them the answer in their native tongue). Anyone who thinks its simple or that theres a method that solves all of these issues, really doesnt understand the challenges of a mixed level classroom.

Edited July 19, 2014 by inutil

[Neeranam]

Its like all of you forgot those magical rules we all learned on our tefl courses

Grammar Translation: L1

Oral Linguistic: L2 entirely (extreme context dependency)

Communicative: L2 mainly. L1 when necessary (time, speed, clarification, understanding - its pragmatic innit).

Suggestopedia: Have fun!

On top of this we learned the immersive approach... it was lovely:

Bunch o' flash cards. Drill drill.

Crack out your two little dummies to model the grammar pattern.

have class repeat. Then do individuals and teacher, then swapparoo, then student student and finally mix em.

Then an activity to get them using it.

Wheee!

Hated it to be honest. I can see it working in an environment where there arent all that many kids, and theyre reasonably motivated. But its dry, repetitive, dull, and lacks any kind of creative input from the students. Its just drilling by another name. Which is FINE of course, drilling and repetition is the cornerstone of retention, but lets not pretend its some kind of magic bullet. The language CAN be taught by immersion. It can also be taught in every other way as well. You could do exactly what you just did in 1/4 of the time with Grammar translation for example. You dont have to waste time trying to engage individual students for the sake of putting them on the spot a bit and making sure they get their turn. And this means you can offer them another 4 patterns in the time. Sure, they might end up shy or less inclined to use the language outside of a written test, but theyll kill on the test! Horses for courses.

And again none of this even delves into your students actual interests and abilities. In a mixed level class you have other barriers. Do you spend twenty minutes with that one kid who wont pick it up banging out the words over and over while the rest of the class sort of gets on with it? Or do you just think, "screw him, its a waste of time"? Then theres learning types. Is it all just going to be immersive communicative english every class? What about those students who HATE that style and would rather just squirrel in with a book, not talk to people and learn by writing the word down 100 times? Or what about learn the structure of the language first so they understand the rule and how to apply it instead of wasting time trying to 'figure it out' from context? What about those kids who just want a simple answer to a simple question so they can move on efficiently? Im not an auditory learner. Nor am i Kinesthetic. I learn by writing words and sentences down until it sticks. Its a pain, i hate it, but there you go. How you going to motivate me through an immersive model? I want the rule, i want examples, i want the language, but above all i want to write it. The last thing i want is some fake artificial activity where we all ask each other where the bus stop is so i garner some kind of associated memory to help in my retention. I retain nothing. I used to dread the 'right everyone, stand up,' moment in language class. It was a waste of time and just drew attention to my discomfort in using the language.

So be it of course. Speaking is an important part of language learning. But theres the rub, for many people it seems that functional fluency is the target here. Immersion teaching of course helps in that. But its not the ONLY measure of success in language acquisition. And i worry that perhaps people forget there are other benchmarks out there in the drive for immersive approaches. Theres also tests, qualifications and grading. And like it or not, throughout Asia, those tests are almost exclusively based upon writing and translation.

Theres nothing wrong with immersive teaching of course. Theres no reason at all that immersion and grammar translation couldnt work in partial tandem (with formal niceties, and simpler instructions (already learned and drilled), carried out in L2), but this idea that there is only one way does many students a disservice. They dont all benefit from one style. They dont all excel using one approach. You have to mix it up. Which of course is the central target of the communicative model and why you will sometimes want to use L1. If that sacrifices the whole core of the immersive experience, then okay. But again, all of these come with unintended consequences when you put at the front of your ideas the learning styles, methods and motivations of a group of mixed level, mixed ability and mixed motivation students. You cant have both. You can either prioritise the method and its coherence and accept that some students are just going to be alienated by it and not achieve anywhere near their potential, or you can try and adapt as many styles as possible, stay versatile and pragmatic and accept that many students wont learn to their potential. Such is the problem of any mixed group. And we cant, as teachers, pretend this isnt a part of the puzzle here.

You sound like a real language teacher - a rare breed in Thailand.

[duanebigsby]

I don't speak Thai anywhere near fluently, so I don't use much.

But I will say everything in English 3 times and if I have to in Thai once.

Usually to explain a step in the project. I draw a lot on the board. I can show them most vocabulary by drawing. The odd word, I will write the Thai on the board and the students find it hilarious that I struggle with their language as much as they do with mine. That part of using Thai is a real point of connection.

Students correcting my Thai is part of my classes and I think it works to make me look like I've got something in common

with them.

[stubuzz]

Students correcting my Thai is part of my classes and I think it works to make me look like I've got something in common

with them.

You spend class time improving your Thai? It makes you like like something, that's true.