Visa crackdown: Is this the end of the road for unqualified ESL teachers in Thailand?

[oldsailor35]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

It's true. My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English. One is fluent in French as well.

 

"My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English"   =  Millions of  Thais!

I  really think that you need to find a maths teacher !................It is not true .

[TomThailand]

Qualified English teachers??? Because a bachelors degree in zoology or computer science makes you a qualified English teacher....... What a joke.

 

If you have a TELF certificate, you are already a more qualified English teacher than some one with a degree in, say, astro-physics. 

 

Not in my view if you also hold a teaching qualification and a TEFL qualification in addition to your astro-physics or other science degree.

 

I actually did my BSc in Zoology in the UK many years ago (I loved David Attenborough's TV programmes)!  Then a PGCE (UK), then an MA in Science Education (UK) , then a one year part-time Advanced Certificate in TEFL at a leading established UK uni which was a brilliant conversion course designed for qualified teachers in other disciplines.   This very well thought through course included an assessed teaching placement in Spain, so it wasn't just theory, and included Teaching English for Specific Purposes too.   Teaching ESP (English for Specific Purposes) is big in the Middle East for example, and if you hold numerate/science degrees AND a teaching and TEFL qualification then you're always going to be in great demand, especially with the defence and oil businesses.

[thaitakeaway]

Navara said

"... It's about the pronouncement and not about the grammar, Thai teachers are good at grammar, they do not need any farang to teach this."

 

Leave pronouncements to the NCPO, and let the native English speakers teach pronunciation. Just sayin'

 

Edited July 17, 2014 by thaitakeaway

[Rhoda Jean]

The "teaching" side of this visa issue alone is going to cause "Thailand" no end of headaches. And you think you're ready for ASEAN? What a <deleted> joke.

 

i agree on that. I don't think so you have millions of Thais who can speak perfect English. We will see how your country will run without the foreign nationality teachers on your community.  (sigh) i pity for the children... they might learn..but im sure it will be just a broken English from this local pals. .... :(

[lostsoul49]

 

 

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?

 

OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.

 

 

Actually, maybe I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify your point. So are you saying that Thailand should allow anyone who wants to come here to teach English, to do so illegally on a tourist visa waiver, earn money, not pay taxes and do so without a work permit? Should there be a special exemption of immigration and labour law just for English teachers, whether qualified or not?

 

 

You are right.... you don't understand.

 

Nothing in his post suggested anything near what you suggest.

 

But he is right. Thailand needs English teachers more than English teachers needs Thailand.

 

My heart goes out to all those who are settled with a girlfriend and assets here, now they have to walk away from the lot if they don't qualify for any of the other visas.

 

Thailand will certainly suffer, and there will e a hoo haa from the education system when all of a sudden they are minus 60 or 70% of their best English teaching options.

 

Most teachers in Thailand are NOT of the Thai qualification criteria. I have met enough to know that. But they do fill a void.

 

Also, the poster who claims Thailand won't suffer for not speaking English.... say the same in the next 20 years when almost nobody can speak proper English... Only the people born into high class families and the average farang isn't likely to be rubbing shoulders with those sorts.

 

This is going to drive up salaries for western English teachers, because it is a supply and demand thing... Bigger the shortage, higher the premiums. Once Thailand starts feeling the effects, the prestigious schools are going to snap up all the fully legal and qualified teachers and the ordinary schools are going to have to go without.

 

I personally know a retired Thai English teacher (retired) She is married to an Aussie and her English is crap at best.
 

[JO1973]

If I'm not mistaken English is the official language used by India's government because following independence it was realized that using one of the 800 or more languages in India for official purposes would only upset every other ethnic group. By choosing the foreign language of their former colonizers (English) they would avoid this problem.

 

Back to the issue at hand, the only way around this issue is to either 1) raise salaries to attract 'qualified' native English speakers; 2) lower qualification standards to allow non-degree holders to teach English; or 3) invest the time and money in an English language college system specifically to train Thai teachers to speak and teach English (along with a raise in salary to attract Thais).

 

If they don't do any of these things they will always have a problem. One can't expect people with degrees to work for nothing just because the job happens to be in sunny Thailand. There are plenty of other countries with sand and palm trees where they could go.

 

The Thai government has always struck me as a bunch of people stuck in another decade, back when Thailand was the only game in town. I still hear this from Thais, as if the Khmer Rouge or the Vietnam War were still right next door. Those days are long gone. Cambodia is now a great place to go, Vietnam pays its teachers well, and places like Malaysia don't have nearly as many hassles.

 

If Thailand expects that qualified people are going to come to Thailand just because its Thailand they're deluding themselves.

Edited July 17, 2014 by JO1973

[Berkshire]

 

They have not changed. I have taught at some of the best private and government schools in the past 5 years here. 97% of the English Thai as well as the Philippine teachers are lacking in English skills. Without a native speaker all Thai will suffer. Even a Native English Speaker who lacks a degree can speak clearly and well enough to teach a Thai student. 

 

 

Something I don't get.  Most farangs in Thailand will say that Thais in general do not speak English well.  The vast majority.  Therefore, all these years of having these so-called TEFLers have done nothing to improve the English proficiency of Thais.  Zero.  So removing them should have zero effect. 

[cup-O-coffee]

Cattle stampedes

Anything unusual may start a stampede. Especially at night, things such as lighting a match, someone jumping off a horse, a horse shaking itself, a lightning strike, a tumbleweed blown into the herd, or "a horse running through a herd kicking at a saddle which has turned under its belly" have been known to cause stampedes.

A large stampede typically eliminates everything in its path. With livestock, cowboys attempt to turn the moving herd into itself, so that it runs in circles rather than running off a cliff or into a river and avoids damaging human life or property. Tactics used to make the herd turn into itself include firing a pistol, which creates noise to make the leaders of the stampede turn.

 

 

I think that what Thais do is similar to a huge herd of hysterically mad, stampeding buffalo. The majority of the herd may go this way and give the impression of a unified agreement to go in that direction, but we all know the buffalo are just following some hysterically mad buffalo (or two or three) out in the lead, and those following without any thought other than to find the path of least resistance as quickly as possible.

 

And then a bolt of lightening cracks in front of them, or a clap of thunder is heard overhead, and those hysterically mad, stampeding buffalo change direction swiftly and without any thought other than to find the path of least resistance as quickly as possible, so they bury their heads up the <deleted> of the ones in front of them and everyone pushes everyone else forward.

 

You all call this a crackdown. I simply call it an impression of a crackdown.

 

What it really is, is nothing more than a stampede of people all moving in one direction without any awareness of the ones around them and in front of them, other than the ones around them and in front of them are an inconvenience. Moreover, the goal is really to find the path of least resistance and avoid any confrontation or slow down.

 

The inexperienced onlookers are deceived into thinking it is an organized, well-thought out effort, and all involved somehow understand each other and are in some way support each other and working in a unified network of understanding. HA!.

 

When, throughout the past crackdowns, I think of any other issue of focus those crackdowns have targeted, and look back at the results, I almost always find collateral damage at the wayside, but the intended target still standing strong and going strong and unabated.

 

Solution? Find an alternate means to get out of the way of the herd, and let it pass by and fizzle out down the road, and you will find that thing you desired to still be there... altered perhaps, yet still there.

 

Simply my opinionated view.

Edited July 17, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[smotherb]

Remembering 8-10 years ago, when 2 local town high schools were struggling with English speakers, I was asked by the COUNTY education to help them out.

I said I had the time BUT at my expense travel and time--no money thanks.  I did 2 terms, the kids thoroughly enjoyed and I got a buzz doing it.

I did not take any job from a Thai, as they did not have enough teachers at the high schools to man all classes, so classes without teachers I took up the slack.

I got 3 laminated coloured certificates, presented at a special session by big wigs in the county education set up.

 

Problem here therefore is unpaid work should be welcomed by immigration, as it is with the education departments, as long as Thai people are not being pushed out.

 

Immigration says -working on a long stay 0 visa-example-prohibited-paid or not.   Education heads say please we need your help.

 

On this topic it is naturally saying without proper qualifications and ap visa then it's a no go.  My point being help for free if you have a long stay visa, it should be a help not a hindrance.

 

Well, if you were properly qualified, then those education officials could have both paid you and gotten you a work permit.

 

Apparently, what you, and so many others, are asking is that the Thai Department of Education lower/ease its 'work' definition and 'work permit' qualification standards for ESL teachers. That may be the way--a more lax interpretation of work and of teaching qualifications.

 

Let's face it, most sing-song English-speaking bar girls could teach anuban kids basic nouns and phrases--wouldn't that be great, your 5 year old comes home and says, "you want short time?" 

 

[hansnl]

There are always reasons within reasons.

The last years I have seen many things in schools and even in a university indicating the discontent from Thai teachers.

Discontent about the higher salary, being the leading.

 

Two Englsh teachers, good TEFL teachers, were dismissed and replaced by one Thai teacher.

The only thing that the new teacher missed was the ability to speak any English.

 

The newly appointed head of a European language department, had a degree in same language.

His first deed was to dismiss a good teacher with the academic qualifications, and in came a friend, had a degree, but could not speak or understand same language

A daughter of a man from the same country speaks Thai, Engish and the language from the language dept.

She was threatened to stop degrading the teacher by speaking so well.........

 

A boy was warned not to show off his good knowledge of English, in another dept, same university.

 

May I conclude that the whole crackdown is very much influenced by jealousy?

 

 

[FarangFB]

Forgive my ignorance, but why all these teachers must stay on tourist visa? Can't they get something like an ED visa and continue teaching while attending Thai language classes twice a week?

[tutone]

I always love when people say Thais could teach English. There are certainly fluent english speakers here, but they can command a much higher salary doing almost anything else than teaching. Having taught a number of Teacher Training camps, the 'fluency' of Thai English teachers is a major factor in Thai students scoring so low on competency tests. Also there are more than a few ESL certificates that are rigourous in their training and include observed classroom instruction and have a internationally standardized grading system. Why wouldn't these people be qualifed to teach? They would be in other countries.

 

What is a fluent English speaker anyway?  I have met scores of Thais described as fluent in English, but perhaps only a handful truly captured the  essence of the English language with its idioms, irony, sarcasm, and phraseology. 

[Rorri]

Don't know if this real or if I'm only imagining it but I have noticed that many jobs (for Thai people) require a higher level of education than comparable ones in the USA.   And age discrimination is rampant in Thailand.  Am I wrong on this?

You are not wrong, but I suspect there is a "difference" in "education" levels. I believe a student, in a matching level in the US compared to one in Thailand, would exceed the Thai students knowledge and ability to apply that knowledge.

[zaphod reborn]

The loss of ESL teachers is really due to the laziness or cheapness of the educational institutions.  If the government required all vendors of education, public or private, to have work permits for their teachers, this could be avoided.  As for unqualified teachers, there needs to be a proper certification system for foreign teachers.  There has to be an admission that government schools cannot afford to pay for foreign educators licensed in their home countries, or with a verifiable degree in education.  There could be a three-tier system for foreign teachers:

 

Tier 1 - English, or other foreign language, conversation teachers.  Certification requirement could be passing an audio listening test for that native language.  This would allow Filipinos, Indians, and NES backpackers etc. to teach basic conversation.  Result - a good supply of conversation teachers for rural Thailand.

 

Tier 2 - English, foreign language, and subject teachers.  Certification requirement would be a bachelor's degree in any field, native speaking skills, and passing a national certification exam in both the subject area and in education.  This would supply the teachers needed for government schools, particularly at the M1-M6 levels, as well as some of the universities.

 

Tier 3 - English, foreign language, and subject teachers.  Certification requirement would be a teaching certificate from their home country, a bachelor's degree in education, or 15 units of graduate work in education.  This would supply the teachers for international schools, and other schools which have a need to hire fully qualilfied teachers.        

 

On a personal note, I was one of those TEFL'ers for about 3 years.  I have 7 years of university work, consisting of a 4 year bachelor's degree in a social science, and a 3 year legal doctorate degree.  I took a reputable TEFL course here in Thailand and, after about 3 months, I was fully able to perform as an educator.  I did a lot of self-study on education theory and spent countless hours preparing for lessons, preparing real exams that were not multiple choice, and actually properly marked those exams.  By my second year of teaching, I was circulating amongst several government schools to teach the Thai English teachers how to teach -  as a TKT trainer and an OBEC writing instructor, both for Thai teachers of English.  In private lessons, I was preparing students for IELTS, TOEFL and the upper Cambridge exams (FCE, CAE and PCE)     All of this, according to the current Education Ministry rules, while I was not properly qualified.  I held a work permit for my entire teaching career.

 

 

 

[smotherb]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

Wrong

Millions of Thais do not speak perfect English. Maybe a few thousand do.

 

Please, have you not seen the poor written English in these TV forums--perfect English is hardly the question.

 

[BestBitterPhuket]

Instead of just debating the implications for the "visa runners", the implications for Thailand should be discussed.

[puchooay]

I haven't read every reply fully but I get the general gist of things.

 

To those who say "if you are not qualified then you cannot/ should not teach", I would like to add a point.

 

I have been "qualified" to teach in Thailand for almost 16 years. During those years the bar has be raised a couple of times. There have been courses to take and new documents to get. I even had to get a police clearance from my home country which, by the time I received it, was not required after all.

 

So now the bar has been raised again. Native English speakers now need to be more qualified or, In my opinion, over qualified.

 

This now means that a teacher with 16 years experience, a degree, a TESOL diploma from UK, a school to teach at and students to teach must leave.

 

Very sad.

[razorramone]

If these are the same clowns offering private classes for 300B an hour, driving down the income of real teachers, I'll be glad to see them go.

 

"This now means that a teacher with 16 years experience, a degree, a TESOL diploma from UK, a school to teach at and students to teach must leave." No it doesnt? Anyone who has those qualifications can easily get a work permit and visa, assuming the school is legit and not dodging its responsibilities.

Edited July 17, 2014 by razorramone

[mdmayes]

Teacher go bye bye.

[yanyk]

This should be good news for the many non so called native speakers  who have degrees in education and English language and yet cant really find a decent job with decent pay. just saying !! another man's meat is another man's  !!!

[ChrisKC]

The need for teachers who can teach some basic English is huge, special in the rural areas. Those areas do not have the funds to pay for a qualified teacher, some schools do not have the funds at all. So they depend on those non-qualified teachers who come to teach for less. Or as I do, for free. Most of the teachers simply like to stay in Thailand and get some pocket money, which is hardly enough to cover the costs.

 

Thailand assumed that non-qualified teachers are not good enough to teach, this is nonsense of course. Native teachers are qualified, but there are over 200 English dialects. Often I hear better English with non-native speakers, than with native ones. It's about the pronouncement and not about the grammar, Thai teachers are good at grammar, they do not need any farang to teach this.

 

It will be a huge set back for the Thai educational system, when they forbid those good non-qualified teachers to teach poor Thai students.

It's about the pronouncement

 

People who teach English for free or for payment, qualified or unqualified should know and understand the completely different meaning of the words: pronouncement and pronunciation

[oldsailor35]

 

There is a good point in the article about the schools having to get themselves in order too.

 

This is so true.

 

When I was teaching, I taught the first 3 months on a tourist visa as the school ensured me that the policy was for all new teachers to work a probation period, after which they'll sort out the Non-B.

 

When the 3 months was up and I needed to get my Non-B they sent me to Laos but they left out some crucial documentation that meant my Non-B visa was rejected upon application. I then had to re-enter Thailand on a 15 day visa exempt stamp (as it was then) to go back to the school so they could correct the mess.

 

Under the new rules, I wouldn't be able to re-enter and all because the school messed up the paperwork for my Non-B visa.

 

It turned out that a school director had forgotten to sign 3 pieces of paper! I then had to go back to Laos afterwards, which was like two trips in the space of a week, where I eventually got my Non-B but the whole episode was a major headache.

 

I'm confused. Was it like two trips in a week or was it actually two trips in the space of a week?

 

 

Dear confused !    Why is this so amazingly important. And why the "like" between it and two. Do you call this good English, i was never taught to keep slipping "like" into my sentences, which is what i hear a lot of today from young English speakers.

 

Edited July 17, 2014 by oldsailor35

[Maroon Watcher]

It is time schools do the right thng for Teachers and Student.

Taking the easy way? out is not medium or long term easy!.

 

This is Thailand - people like living here because the rules are not too tight...

But having No rules in Education /training is bad for Thailand's furure.

It will get left [further] behind.

(But this has not mattered before because eveybody was told that Thailand was an advanced culture...)

 

A (Real) 120 hour+ TEFL from a recognised source should be OK for a
Teacher "assistant" or assisting with English (ESL Teacher)

But this was abused as an alleged way of "Filitering" the true wage into the wrong pockets..

 

Paying a Fair wage to qulified teachers and obtaining the correct visa permits can only be good for Thailand.

(But not for some protesters pockets?)

 

Having a real education is a right not a ploy.

[isawasnake]

The two tihngs I will agree with:

 

Thais can't effectively teach English

 

 

But then again, neither can visa running, non-degree holding foreigners..... or is it "foreners" lol. 

[smotherb]

 

Qualified English teachers??? Because a bachelors degree in zoology or computer science makes you a qualified English teacher....... What a joke.

 

If you have a TELF certificate, you are already a more qualified English teacher than some one with a degree in, say, astro-physics. 

Oops, that should say TEFL* certificate........

 

That certainly is open for debate. Frankly, I doubt it. With a degree, you at least had to have spent four years of study and been assessed on your English-writing/speaking skills in your degree program--of course, that is if you graduated from a properly accredited institution. That does not seem to be the case in the two or four week, online or on-ground TEFL programs with which I am familiar. In those programs, their teaching materials were written in poor English and their staff spoke poor English. Additionally, the TEFL industry is so poorly regulated that curricula is not standardized, instructors are not regulated, and many require only payment and some attendance to graduate.

 

[jacksam]

Agree with Hannahd. Fact is which every way you cut it. Most of the so called teachers are not qualified. It is worse here in Vietnam. A lot of the teachers from backackers to old rejects are just on an extended holiday here. Ones i see particularly in HCM go to school after a few beers. Some I talk with in bkk, where i live were doing non descript jobs in uk au or wherever.
Their grammer is not as good as many non native speaking countries.
Get a degree and come teach here. No problem. Oh and its a degree and one full year full time teacher training.
One bloke i spoke to told me he obtained his qualifications online. Took him 2 weeks.
I was inspired that he qualified it by stating that he worked at it very hard! 0

[bubba]

 

 

 

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?

 

OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.

 

 

Actually, maybe I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify your point. So are you saying that Thailand should allow anyone who wants to come here to teach English, to do so illegally on a tourist visa waiver, earn money, not pay taxes and do so without a work permit? Should there be a special exemption of immigration and labour law just for English teachers, whether qualified or not?

 

Actually, maybe I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify your point. So are you saying things that I didn't... I fail to understand why people, like yourself, need to make things up simply to say something...why make false accusations?

 

 

I don't see where I made any "false accusations". I was only asking a question for clarification. Your answers would be welcome, as well as your proposed solution. 

 

Also, I didn't "make things up" regarding my initial statement. I believe it is accurate to say that countries do indeed have a visa and work permit requirement to work in their respective countries, and part of that includes the applicant providing proper qualifications. For example, in your country, are native speakers of Chinese allowed to enter indefinitely without a visa or employment authorisation to teach Chinese and then justify that because there is a shortage of Chinese teachers there and they will work for cheap?

[lostsoul49]

 

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

Wrong

Millions of Thais do not speak perfect English. Maybe a few thousand do.

 

Please, have you not seen the poor written English in these TV forums--perfect English is hardly the question.

 

 

 

Erm..... Considering that probably 50% of the members on ThaiVisa are not English speakers as a first language, I have been quite impressed with the level of English ability across this forum.

 

The real dunces are those who don't realise that certain little detail.
 

[oldsailor35]

 

 

English is in fact the official language of India).

English is not in fact the official language of India. According to the 1950 constitution, Hindi written in Devanagari script is.

Though English is widely used in officialdom, there is a strong nationalist movement to phase it out. Perhaps most obvious to the outsider are the name changes of Calcutta, Bombay, Madras, Mysore, Cochin - all replaced with Hindi names.

 

The good folk of Madras  or  Chennai do NOT speak Hindi    Tamil is there language.

 

And ENGLISH !   Plus, i think you mean 'their'  not 'there'

Edited July 17, 2014 by oldsailor35

[smotherb]

 

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?

 

OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.

 

Yeah, absolutely no one would rather be in Thailand on B30k/mo than in Iran on B60k/mo