Visa crackdown: Is this the end of the road for unqualified ESL teachers in Thailand?

[brucetefl]

They could always get qualified here in Thailand.  There are several options.

[wolfmanjack]

 

 

 

They are going to quit teaching ESL.

The future looks to be MSL (Mandarin).

I doubt Thai schools will stop teaching English anytime soon. The business language of ASEAN, and the world, is currently English. There are millions of 'qualified' Filipino English teachers who would love to fill Thailand's need for ESL teachers. By qualified, I mean degreed, many with education degrees in teaching English.

 

Of course, then you have the accreditation of the degree granting institution to question--but that question exists with the many dubiously 'degreed' falang ESL teachers too.

 

In the future, if and when the US drops drastically in global economic strength--like the Brits have already done--Mandarin may indeed take over as the lingua franca of business, in Asia at least.  Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools.

 

 

"Mandarin is already taught in most Thai schools." really, wow, this is news to me, and I'm sure news to the many Isaan schools I've been to.

 

 

My partner from Suratthani  had to go to uni in Bangkok to get her degree in Mandarin, and now we are being told that it is being taught in schools, goodness me!  how the Thai education has improved in recent years.
 

 

My daughter has been taking mandarin for the last 2 years at her thai public school and is at the top of her class this year in both mandarin and english. She is in the middle of the pack in her thai language class though.

[ScotBkk]

 

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

It's true. My wife and all her sisters speak excellent English. One is fluent in French as well.

 

Well that's your "small family group" out 65 million, your argument is a bit weak, maybe you need to focus on what Thailand needs, not only your happy little family.

 

 

Hilarious, but oh' so true ..... 

[CockneyGit]

If there is a great shortage of native speaker TEFL instructors then the void will be filled by ASEAN. There are many, many teachers in Philippines or Myanmar who have excellent English language skills and who find the wage scale in Thailand quite adequate. 

 

Bang! There it is. I wondered when someone would twig it.

As of 2015 anyone in the ASEAN Community can legally enter Thailand to work without the need of the usual ridiculous amounts of paperwork.

 

The Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore has excellent English speakers and I'm sure they will be piling into Thailand to teach, not just for the money but also the different life experience.

 

Already at my sons' school there are quite a few Filipino teachers who all speak excellent English and I have no issues with them teaching my kids at all.

 

Might even bring the school fees down a bit..!!

[eeworldwide]

Let's be honest - VERY FEW Thai teachers or even well-educated people speak perfect english, much less write it.  There is no possible way these Thai's could give any school children a proper well rounded course in the English language. As I stated before, there will be a revision of these new rules within the next 6 months. There will be carnage all across the land, and families will be broken up.

 

What I can't see, or perhaps I'm just missing it - is the reasons WHY these new rules are being applied right now at this moment in time.  The country is already in a state of disarray for obvious reasons, and this is only going to cause a lot more friction. The fact that ultimately decisions at border checkpoints and airport immigration desks will lie with the person behind the counter is also unnecessarily arbitrary.  It's unfair and just shows how badly thought through this whole thing  is.  There needs to be a proper revision of the visa rules, especially, and first and foremost for those who have been married and who have spouses and children living in Thailand.  If you have been married for over 3 years and have children, there should be concessions, and these concessions should increase with the length of time you have been married. It shouldn't just be about how much money in the bank, since Thailand offers no benefit or social security to speak of - even to their own people, so it's not as though foreigners can come here and abuse the system, as they might in the UK for example.

 

With regard to education - no unqualified teachers should be allowed to teach in state or private schools anyway - that's just stupid and irresponsible - all children deserve a good an well rounded education, so the Thai government pointing fingers at foreigners who are unqualified should really look to their own dreadful handling of their own education system.

 

Teaching English as a foreign language does not require a degree - and people should be allowed to do that, but again, the actual visa rules should not be so difficult to implement.  My thought is that the immigration dept   have not really thought this through PROPERLY.

 

But they;ll learn this the hard way - and many foreigners will bear the unavoidable brunt.

[oldsailor35]

What is better.... Thailand filled with native English speaking teachers without degrees teaching VERY BASIC English, or Thailand filled with Filipinos and Indians with degrees teaching basic English?

 

Indians and Philippinos teaching English in preference to Native English speakers.................Frightening is'nt it !
 

Edited July 17, 2014 by oldsailor35

[Equalizer]

!!! NEW LAW !!!

 

If you are married to a Thai citizen and have legitimate Thai children, you can work without any form of permit or interference on a family Visa.

 

Now wouldn't that be a turn up for the books? I am assuming this will never happen because the Thai authorities will see this as a loop hole and believe that millions of foreigners will turn up at the airport ''ball bags bursting'' hell bent on impregnating someone, then sneaking of and marrying them in the hope that they can finally work for 12 hours a day with no holidays, receiving peanuts to give it all away to those poor married Thai people. 

[englishoak]

 

What is better.... Thailand filled with native English speaking teachers without degrees teaching VERY BASIC English, or Thailand filled with Filipinos and Indians with degrees teaching basic English?

 

Indians and Philippinos teaching English in preference to Native English speakers.................Frightening is'nt it !
 

 

 

Isnt it just ? It would however enable them to drop the rates paid, plenty of desperate willing to work for cheap teachers in the AEC countries. I would not be surprised if this was all a larger part of a cost cutting exercise at the same time as the visa crackdown..

[larsjohnsson]

Don't most countries have qualifications and working visa requirements for teachers? What's wrong with Thailand doing the same?
 
OT: I am just going to take a wild guess here: unqualified students with ED visas of convenience will be next in the clearing out.

In case you have only just woken up, it comes down to money, qualified people can make more in other countries, why come to Thailand and settle for maybe 30000 baht a month. Thailand needs english teachers more than english teachers needing Thailand. Hope this isn't to hard for you to understand.

But they need "real" english teachers

[NoshowJones]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

You really must be joking when you say that Thais are speaking a perfect english. In Bangkok and other main towns there are some people who have some good ideas about the language, especially in the upper classes of the society. But you can go to many provinces where the level is very low, if not inexistant. In my wife's village I had the pleasure to meet with the "english teacher" and I was unable to have any conversation with him since he had no idea about english. And this is the sort of people who are supposed to diffuse the language among the young generations.

Moreover, in 2006, some english teachers (foreigners) were hired by the Ministry of Education in order to conduct an assessment aimed at evaluating the quality of english teaching in the whole country. The final report issued fully confirmed what I said above : a disaster.

I'm not saying that unqualified foreign teachers is the solution to reversing the tendency but they at least contribute(d) to improving the understanding of a second language in this country. 

 

I think you will find that most Thai speakers who are quite good, I say quite, good at speaking English, will use a hundred words when twenty would be enough.

[AYJAYDEE]

 

What is better.... Thailand filled with native English speaking teachers without degrees teaching VERY BASIC English, or Thailand filled with Filipinos and Indians with degrees teaching basic English?

 

Indians and Philippinos teaching English in preference to Native English speakers.................Frightening is'nt it !
 

 

i can understand an indian or philipino a lot better than I can understand a Geordie or a Yorkshireman

[NoshowJones]

Don't know if this real or if I'm only imagining it but I have noticed that many jobs (for Thai people) require a higher level of education than comparable ones in the USA.   And age discrimination is rampant in Thailand.  Am I wrong on this?

Your last two sentences are spot on.

[larsjohnsson]

What is better.... Thailand filled with native English speaking teachers without degrees teaching VERY BASIC English, or Thailand filled with Filipinos and Indians with degrees teaching basic English?

I would prefer the Filipinos with degrees

[KhnomKhnom]

If there is a good teacher, regardless of training or degrees, that person should be paid well, and should have a Work Permit/work visa.  He/she must not be put into the position of doing visa runs even for a decade before, and not now either.

 

There exists a well established method to teach here....... it is called a WORK PERMIT.  "Schools" that want to get by on the cheap should be closed or fulfill the law.

 

Today the situation will soon need to address unintended consequences of the end of the visa run......

-subsidize genuine English language schools to afford their teachers and their teachers' work permits.

-establish crash course to upgrade Thai citizen teachers' English ability by giving them scholarships to go to professional development courses offered by good colleges.

 

The real problem is the "warm body" in a classroom.  People drop into Thailand and discover that just because they can talk English they can subsist and slip thru the cracks in visa regs.  What a great deal !  Talk English, which you already do, and then you can stay in Thailand.  Those are not TEACHERS, they are English talkers.

 

I taught English writing and grammar at U of Georgia to Americans already able to handle English so so, but I know that teaching English to Thai whose language has no parallels to English is totally DIFFERENT.  I tried and failed and quit that.  Teaching Thai people requires many abilities and skills way, way, way, beyond being able to talk English.  Those who can only talk English are not offering an effective vital service;  they are simply delaying or retarding Thai trying to really learn (that is a split infinitive, btw) .

 

So moan not.....  if the end of visa runs also runs out the English talkers, great !  Thailand should not be gipped by these talkers.  Not a real loss.

[AYJAYDEE]

If there is a good teacher, regardless of training or degrees, that person should be paid well, and should have a Work Permit/work visa.  He/she must not be put into the position of doing visa runs even for a decade before, and not now either.

 

There exists a well established method to teach here....... it is called a WORK PERMIT.  "Schools" that want to get by on the cheap should be closed or fulfill the law.

 

Today the situation will soon need to address unintended consequences of the end of the visa run......

-subsidize genuine English language schools to afford their teachers and their teachers' work permits.

-establish crash course to upgrade Thai citizen teachers' English ability by giving them scholarships to go to professional development courses offered by good colleges.

 

The real problem is the "warm body" in a classroom.  People drop into Thailand and discover that just because they can talk English they can subsist and slip thru the cracks in visa regs.  What a great deal !  Talk English, which you already do, and then you can stay in Thailand.  Those are not TEACHERS, they are English talkers.

 

I taught English writing and grammar at U of Georgia to Americans already able to handle English so so, but I know that teaching English to Thai whose language has no parallels to English is totally DIFFERENT.  I tried and failed and quit that.  Teaching Thai people requires many abilities and skills way, way, way, beyond being able to talk English.  Those who can only talk English are not offering an effective vital service;  they are simply delaying or retarding Thai trying to really learn (that is a split infinitive, btw) .

 

So moan not.....  if the end of visa runs also runs out the English talkers, great !  Thailand should not be gipped by these talkers.  Not a real loss.

so a poor rural school is better off with no english speaking teachers at all?

[casualbiker]

 

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

You really must be joking when you say that Thais are speaking a perfect english. In Bangkok and other main towns there are some people who have some good ideas about the language, especially in the upper classes of the society. But you can go to many provinces where the level is very low, if not inexistant. In my wife's village I had the pleasure to meet with the "english teacher" and I was unable to have any conversation with him since he had no idea about english. And this is the sort of people who are supposed to diffuse the language among the young generations.

Moreover, in 2006, some english teachers (foreigners) were hired by the Ministry of Education in order to conduct an assessment aimed at evaluating the quality of english teaching in the whole country. The final report issued fully confirmed what I said above : a disaster.

I'm not saying that unqualified foreign teachers is the solution to reversing the tendency but they at least contribute(d) to improving the understanding of a second language in this country. 

 

 

 

a link to this"report" would be nice

[casualbiker]

 

I have a lifetime Thai teaching certificate from K-1 to Grade 12 in all subjects except Thai Language.  (ส.ช. 11)

 

However, I'm on a retirement visa and nobody could lure me back into it for a salary under 250K Baht per month.

 

I really want to see how this visa crackdown plays out.  I'm popping popcorn right now.

 

Too bad you don't have post graduate degrees with the proper research, presentation, and publication credentials; you could get that B250k/mo.

 

 

name ONE school in Thailand that would pay 250k/mo for a post graduate degree holder OR STOP BLOWING SMOKE OUT YOUR ARSE.

[wolf5370]

There is an easy out here - just create a new "Teacher's Assistant" role for un lettered TEFL holders. That makes them not teachers in the same respect as a subject teacher, but can run English language classes. Lump them in with the teachers as to the exclusion of minimum wage based on nationality, and allow for a different pay structure. That way they are not taking Thai teaching jobs, the schools can afford them, they can get Non Imm B visas on that basis, and all is well. Leave it to the school to determine whether they teach English alone, for some lessons only or alongside a Thai teacher. Teaching Assistants exists in most western countries and are often less educated (academically) than "real" teachers, but bring industry knowledge, native speech skills and so on at a fraction of the cost.

[casualbiker]

If these are the same clowns offering private classes for 300B an hour, driving down the income of real teachers, I'll be glad to see them go.

 

"This now means that a teacher with 16 years experience, a degree, a TESOL diploma from UK, a school to teach at and students to teach must leave." No it doesnt? Anyone who has those qualifications can easily get a work permit and visa, assuming the school is legit and not dodging its responsibilities.

 

wrong. without a BA'ed or MA'ed a teacher can no longer get a teachers licence. no licence no work permit or visa..try and keep up. I know it's difficult!

[nikthekiwi]

Last time we heard about cleaning the immigration status of illegal workers, it was about the Cambodian nationals => they went back home but Thais realized they badly needed them => Cambodians came back.

Same story here? No => Thais DON'T NEED English teachers from abroad because millions Thais speak a perfect English and can teach to the children.

 

You are joking about the "speak perfect English" bit aren't you?

[chooka]

Weren't they saying awhile back that Thais are poor in English skills and they wanted to encourage foreign English teachers.  They were/are having problems attracting qualified English teachers and now they want to take what they do have out the back and shoot them.  Isn't this going backwards instead of forwards? 

[wabothai]

Who is to say that unqualified farangs are not allowed to teach when only a handful of Thai speak English.
May be it would be nice to thank these people for trying, iso punishing them.
I am not qualified but am perfectly able to teach the kids how to say good morning, how are you, i am fine....

[Deacon Bell]

Personally I'd rather a NES teacher with a TEFL cert to teach my kid English conversation.

 

And Filipinos with degrees in both the subject they're teaching and Education to teach them everything else.

 

 

Barry from Manchester with a degree in bricklaying teaching biology, compared to an almost fluent Filipino with a degree in the subject and teaching certificates, no thanks.

[Deacon Bell]

Weren't they saying awhile back that Thais are poor in English skills and they wanted to encourage foreign English teachers.  They were/are having problems attracting qualified English teachers and now they want to take what they do have out the back and shoot them.  Isn't this going backwards instead of forwards? 

 

They offered them 10k per month to legally teach in rural government schools without a degree.

 

It wasn't all that successful

[wolf5370]

 

What is better.... Thailand filled with native English speaking teachers without degrees teaching VERY BASIC English, or Thailand filled with Filipinos and Indians with degrees teaching basic English?

I would prefer the Filipinos with degrees

 

 

Last time I was in Manila there was a sweet shop hiring shop assistants - the sign clearly stated, in English!, that only people with degrees would be considered!

I joked with a friend of mine at the time (a wealthy and quite powerful Filipino - his family owned islands!) about the sign, and he shrugged and said it is true of all jobs here (there) now, degrees for the most basic of jobs. He also said degrees were easy to come by with money - as you would expect with such demands for low paid jobs - and families borrowed money from loan sharks to cover the price of degrees.

 

You would like someone who paid for his degree, teaching in a foreign country with a language that s/he does not speak, a language that is not native to them? Is this better than say an ex-office worker from the UK/USA that spent their working lives writing reports, making calls, doing presentations etc all in their native tongue - and then got a ISO approved TEFL with 8 hours of supervised classroom work, plus grammar exams etc?

 

The same is true of India - I worked with Indians for many years, very educated ones (PhD/Masters min.)  - they often complained about how easy it was for moneyed people to buy their degrees or have people sit their finals and write their dissertations for them. We even had some of them turn up (didn't last long) - the other Indians could spot them from a mile off. It is a source of much irritation with those that did it properly with hard work and long hours and their family putting themselves in long term debt. I am still friends with some of these Indians btw.

[casualbiker]

 

 

 

 

They have not changed. I have taught at some of the best private and government schools in the past 5 years here. 97% of the English Thai as well as the Philippine teachers are lacking in English skills. Without a native speaker all Thai will suffer. Even a Native English Speaker who lacks a degree can speak clearly and well enough to teach a Thai student. 

 

 

Something I don't get.  Most farangs in Thailand will say that Thais in general do not speak English well.  The vast majority.  Therefore, all these years of having these so-called TEFLers have done nothing to improve the English proficiency of Thais.  Zero.  So removing them should have zero effect. 

 

I have to admit this is the weakest reasoning I have seen in months, so i hope you were being sarcastic.

 

First you incorrectly assume that the fact that Thais, on average, do not speak English well means there has been no improvement. Second you incorrectly assume that what most farangs say is true instead of looking at genuine research testing english skills. Thirdly you incorrectly assume that all Thais have been exposed to TEFLers which is impossible given that the number of TEFLers is limited and they only teach school kids.

 

Again, I sincerely hoping you were joking as it is otherwise almost impossible to make this many mistakes in such a short post in you would use your brain.

 

 

I hope you're not an English teacher because your writing leaves a lot to be desired.  Of course I was being sarcastic.  One of the favorite tactics of the serial Thai-basher is to suggest that Thais are terrible in English.  Even worse than Filipinos....although they always freak-out when I mention Japan and Korea as being even less proficient in English than the average Thai. 

 

But back OT, all I see happening is more English teachers coming from the region once AEC is established.  Thailand will have plenty of qualified English teachers going forward.  Kicking out unqualified TEFLers will have zero impact on Thailand over the long run.

 

 

 

 

Will those AEC teachers have a 5 year BA'ed and language skills of a native of near native speaker. Probably not? so in fact they will not be qualified! 

[wabothai]

With a degree in hotel management and seeing quite a bit of improvement possibilities in Thai hotels, i really would like to teach hotel staff a few things. But i am not allowed to.

Horse behind the car !!!!

[casualbiker]

Whether or not the schools 'want' unqualified 'teachers', the law is the law.

 

Why devalue those of us with the correct qualifications?

 

Go somewhere else for your easy ride. Thanks.

 

Johnnie99, You currently have a 5 year BA'ed or a 4 year BA and 2 year MA'ed.. Good for you.I hope your not working in a government school with 40-50 students per class and intermittent air con for 35-40k baht per month. Or are you?

[nbuff]

Firstly, anyone who thinks that there are enough English speaking Thais to fill any provinces teaching roster is mistaken. I work at a billingual school where several Thai teachers have Masters degrees in English and they can hardly tell me what they did over the weekend. Their grammar is usually better than mine ( I teach science and math not English) but they can not actually speak the language ( priority check ).

 

Secondly, on the topic of ESL teachers being targeted during this Visa crackdown. I do think it is fair that Thailand demands at least a bachelors degree in any field, this is a very reasonable request. However, I do not think that a degree in education automatically makes you a good/better teacher.

In business I worked with many MBAs who i felt were a waste of a salary.

 

Lastly, to blame even unqualified teachers without degrees for Thailands English language skills is a big joke and a conveniant way to shift Thai problems onto anyone and anything that is not Thai.

 

I teach in a private billingual school which is populated by children from wealthy families. Even at this school, if I take a globe and ask several 7th grade students to locate major countries, they are lost. Math is math and they learn it in Thai as well. When they cannot complete the work i give them, I ask to see their Thai workbooks as well and they are no better. I speak enough Thai to ask my students questions in Thai, still to almost no avail in many cases. Thailand is extremely low on everyfront of education. A handful of " unqualified " teachers giving a class 2 hours of English instruction a week is not to blame for the complete, systematic failure of Education in Thailand.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2014 by nbuff

[Jingthing]

Two comments.

 

If this crackdown is real and not a temporary show glitch, they will still need these less than Grade A teachers because as said Thailand's pay levels won't attract adequate numbers of needed English teachers.

So why not a new visa class only for such teachers?

Call it something insulting ... smelly teachers ... whatever ... it doesn't matter ... just bloody LEGALIZE this thing and make it quick and easy for the teachers and the employers. 

 

Of course, that won't happen. Too honest. Too much face facing ...

 

Second comment. 

For those that for the time being can stay long term legally, specifically those on RETIREMENT EXTENSIONS, fully legalize and streamline the process to VOLUNTEER to teach English, at least part time.

 

Many retirees would love to help out this way. It's a wasted resources NOT to tap this, for both Thailand and the retired people. 

Edited July 17, 2014 by Jingthing