Courtesy? In Bangkok?

[TokyoT]

Courtesy? What a load of old cobblers!

Get upset when people push past you to pile into a lift before you've had a chance to get out first? Disappointed when strangers refuse to say "thanks" when you hold open a door for them?

How about people chatting during a movie? Or who jump in front of you in a queue?

These sorts of small but tiringly irksome incidents are far too common in Bangkok, it would seem. Indeed, our so-called "City of Angels" has received a devil of a ranking in a survey by Reader's Digest of the the levels of courtesy shown to researchers in major cities around the world.

"This was the world's biggest real-life test of common courtesy," said Kaidsuda Suriyayos, managing editor of Reader's Digest Sansara Thai edition.

"Our researchers conducted more than 2,000 separate tests of actual behaviour, producing results that were both revealing and thought-provoking."

Out of 35 cities around the world, Bangkok came 25th in the magazine's latest survey, conducted to find out more about the "dying art" of courtesy.

The magazine's reporters were dispatched to different corners of the world to assess politeness in the most populous city in 35 countries. In every location, they staged scenarios to see if people would hold open a door, say "thank you" after making a sale in a shop, and help someone pick up papers dropped in a busy location. Points were awarded for polite responses, and the results for each city tallied and compared.

But don't worry, Bangkokians, you are hardly alone in lacking courtesy. Residents of Moscow and Bucharest also ranked very low on the global list.

A woman who failed to hold a door in Moscow quipped: "I'm not a doorman. It's not my job to hold doors. If someone gets hurt, they should be quicker on their feet."

In Bangkok, a teenage girl entering a crowded department store let the door swing back without looking behind. "I've never glanced back to hold doors for others before; this kind of behaviour is not common for me," she told the researcher.

One consolation for Bangkokians fearful of our lack of civility - our neighbours are equally as uncouth. The magazine said that eight out of nine Asian cities finished in the bottom 11.

Worldwide, New York topped the list for the most courteous residents, followed by Zurich, Toronto, Berlin, Zagreb and Sao Paulo, respectively.

Reader's Digest quoted Niwes Kanthairaj, a renowned columnist on social affairs, as saying: "The effort to develop generosity is not enough. People tend to forget to be considerate, to be concerned for other's feelings, which is part of basic manners in a society."

The survey results will be published in the Reader's Digest next month. The magazine claims it is the most extensive global collaboration in its 84-year history.

Duangporn Bodart

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/06/29...es_30007591.php

Edit to add RD's links:

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2006/07/polite.php

http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?c...599&pageIndex=2

Edited June 29, 2006 by TokyoT

[alexth]

Courtesy? What a load of old cobblers!

Get upset when people push past you to pile into a lift before you've had a chance to get out first? Disappointed when strangers refuse to say "thanks" when you hold open a door for them?

How about people chatting during a movie? Or who jump in front of you in a queue?

These sorts of small but tiringly irksome incidents are far too common in Bangkok, it would seem. Indeed, our so-called "City of Angels" has received a devil of a ranking in a survey by Reader's Digest of the the levels of courtesy shown to researchers in major cities around the world.

"This was the world's biggest real-life test of common courtesy," said Kaidsuda Suriyayos, managing editor of Reader's Digest Sansara Thai edition.

"Our researchers conducted more than 2,000 separate tests of actual behaviour, producing results that were both revealing and thought-provoking."

Out of 35 cities around the world, Bangkok came 25th in the magazine's latest survey, conducted to find out more about the "dying art" of courtesy.

The magazine's reporters were dispatched to different corners of the world to assess politeness in the most populous city in 35 countries. In every location, they staged scenarios to see if people would hold open a door, say "thank you" after making a sale in a shop, and help someone pick up papers dropped in a busy location. Points were awarded for polite responses, and the results for each city tallied and compared.

But don't worry, Bangkokians, you are hardly alone in lacking courtesy. Residents of Moscow and Bucharest also ranked very low on the global list.

A woman who failed to hold a door in Moscow quipped: "I'm not a doorman. It's not my job to hold doors. If someone gets hurt, they should be quicker on their feet."

In Bangkok, a teenage girl entering a crowded department store let the door swing back without looking behind. "I've never glanced back to hold doors for others before; this kind of behaviour is not common for me," she told the researcher.

One consolation for Bangkokians fearful of our lack of civility - our neighbours are equally as uncouth. The magazine said that eight out of nine Asian cities finished in the bottom 11.

Worldwide, New York topped the list for the most courteous residents, followed by Zurich, Toronto, Berlin, Zagreb and Sao Paulo, respectively.

Reader's Digest quoted Niwes Kanthairaj, a renowned columnist on social affairs, as saying: "The effort to develop generosity is not enough. People tend to forget to be considerate, to be concerned for other's feelings, which is part of basic manners in a society."

The survey results will be published in the Reader's Digest next month. The magazine claims it is the most extensive global collaboration in its 84-year history.

Duangporn Bodart

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/06/29...es_30007591.php

Edit to add RD's links:

http://www.readersdigest.ca/mag/2006/07/polite.php

http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?c...599&pageIndex=2

Shoot me, but I think this is all about education and I think this is becoming a rarity all over Thailand...of course there are some other parts all over the world, but in some areas, education is suffering severe wounds

[Donz]

Everyone seems to forget that Thailand is not the most developed country in the world and alot dont have the education as most foreigners. But even in good old sydney you find people like that.

[The Coder]

Couldn't agree more with the negative results of the article, it's obvious to anyone and at times very annoying. But I would say it's not because Thai's are impolite, it's because their politeness is so different than western standards. In the west, the emphasis on politeness means going out of your way to make others feel good. In Thailand the emphasis on politeness is tolerating anything others do.

Personally, I have a hard time adjusting to this like all the unnecessary noise and often am in a pickle whether to hold the door for people because you get the feeling you are doing something so strange that the girls think you are making a pass and to others you are shocking by lowering yourself to a servant class that only doormen should be doing.

[PREM-R]

Worldwide, New York topped the list for the most courteous residents,

[TokyoT]

In Thailand the emphasis on politeness is tolerating anything others do.

Spot on – and to top it off when the in-laws visit I sometimes get the feeling that they feel I am being impolite in excepting a certain level of courtesy in my own house.

Like try knocking on the door (or ringing the bell) rather than simply walking in the door. How about not changing the channel when I am watching the TV, and keeping the decibel level of their conversations at a reasonable level (at least when indoors)– ya know the person you are talking to is right in front of you. Even worse when on the cell phone – you’d think they were using a couple of cans with string and needed to yell to help the person on the other end hear them.

Just returning from lunch and have to throw this in as well – Elevators and BTS, what is so frekn’ hard to understand about letting people that are on get off before one attempts to get on? You’d think it was the last available elevator/train and if they did not make it on they would be stuck there forever they way some people rush on as soon as the doors open.

[Rinrada]

Always hold open the door in Central-Big C- Secon etc just to see their reactions...and its usually a mixture of supprise and FEAR... but not always.

The young floosies tend to giggle and bop up and down trying to wai you(thanks) while there are the more mature khun Yin-Yas (grannies)who have maybe been overseas/educated and understand weird foreign ways can be very receptive and have actually stopped for a chat...just keep smiling....

Also...

When you are having a meeting with a bunch of Thais or simply having a semi formal lunch try asking them before they sit down to please switch OFF their mobile phones..

.....WOT........

You will be seen as something equilivant to the Monster from the Black Lagoon..

They just do things differently from us vivre la......

[Lacoste]

Couldn't agree more with the negative results of the article, it's obvious to anyone and at times very annoying. But I would say it's not because Thai's are impolite, it's because their politeness is so different than western standards. In the west, the emphasis on politeness means going out of your way to make others feel good. In Thailand the emphasis on politeness is tolerating anything others do.

Nothing more to add, you have a fine understanding of the people you have chosen to live amongst sir

[MarkBKK]

Personally, I have a hard time adjusting to this like all the unnecessary noise and often am in a pickle whether to hold the door for people because you get the feeling you are doing something so strange that the girls think you are making a pass and to others you are shocking by lowering yourself to a servant class that only doormen should be doing.

I work in a mixed office -- Thais and farang -- and often, when holding the door open for a cleaning lady or two they say something in Thai, lower their heads, smile and go through the door. I don't pay too much attention, it's the way I was brought up. I hold doors open for pretty much everyone. Did the same a few days ago for a couple of the cleaners (weighed down with mops and stuff) and a friend I was with who speaks Thai (I don't, much to my shame) said ''Do you know what they said?'' I replied that obviously I didn't and he said it was something like ''D'oh! They're farang and they hold the doors open for us and those scumbag Thai men never do ...''

It may be strange, but it seems that it's certainly appreciated.

[Tingnongnoi]

[quote name='Rinrada' date='2006-06-30 16:14:39' post='798918

Also...

When you are having a meeting with a bunch of Thais or simply having a semi formal lunch try asking them before they sit down to please switch OFF their mobile phones..

.....WOT........

You will be seen as something equilivant to the Monster from the Black Lagoon..

They just do things differently from us vivre la......

try that anywhere in the world and I reckon you will get exactly the same reaction

[Rinrada]

No ..dont agree...in any society its polite to acknowledge and be acknowledged...wotever the occasion.

Any formal/semi meeting or seminar that I have attended over the last 20 years or so with requests to SWITCH OFF (the bloody things) have always been accepted and usually with releaf.

In fact only a couple of weeks ago I was a a "do" in honour of His Majestys 60th on the Terrace at the House of Lords when even our local Khun Yins as well as the minor Thai royalty present were more than happy to "Pray be Silent" for H.E the Ambassador...(nice guy we finished off a bottle of Lanna Red...later ..he put me on to it last year)

All a bit of a learning and understanding process...innit

[sbk]

I think the problem here is a lack of understanding as to what is polite behavior in one society. Just because something is polite behavior in one culture does not make it polite behavior in another.

I lived in Taiwan for awhile before coming here and they do not queue. It is not rude to push to the front and no one gets offended if you do the same.

Too often we judge Thai culture by western standards. I live in a small area and people here don't hold open doors or queue. However, it is common for someone to pay our bill when out for noodles. Why? Because it is the polite thing to do, pay for someone else's meal (friend or relative doesn't matter).

[Donz]

Always hold open the door in Central-Big C- Secon etc just to see their reactions...and its usually a mixture of supprise and FEAR... but not always.

The young floosies tend to giggle and bop up and down trying to wai you(thanks) while there are the more mature khun Yin-Yas (grannies)who have maybe been overseas/educated and understand weird foreign ways can be very receptive and have actually stopped for a chat...just keep smiling....

Also...

When you are having a meeting with a bunch of Thais or simply having a semi formal lunch try asking them before they sit down to please switch OFF their mobile phones..

.....WOT........

You will be seen as something equilivant to the Monster from the Black Lagoon..

They just do things differently from us vivre la......

Do you do this with a horny look on your face??

The oldies are probaly afraid of you

[Ulysses G.]

I would say it's not because Thai's are impolite, it's because their politeness is so different than western standards.

This seems rather obvious, but apparently not.

[meadish_sweetball]

It's good that at least some people understand that what constitutes polite behaviour in one place does not necessarily do so in another.

Even between Sweden and England, there are differences. Swedes say 'tack' (thank you) a lot more in simple business transactions like buying a pack of cigarettes - we also say 'thank you' when the waiters bring us the food, but we do not generally say 'sorry' when bumping into somebody, which is unlike what I experienced in Sydney and London. I bet an Englishman would react to the absence of 'sorry' when a Swede bumped into him.

Just switch the situation around - when you pass between two people having a conversation, do you lower your head? Do you refrain from talking back to people who are older or have a higher position than you even when they are wrong? Do you pay for the entire group's food when eating out, if you are the senior? Do you refrain from throwing things like car keys at people and instead walk the extra meters to give it to them in their hand? Do you consciously refrain from using your foot to point at something?

All of these are polite markers in Thai culture, and if you fail to observe them, you are breaking the code here.

That is not to say that I would not like Thai people to be more considerate with doors, queues and mobile phones... just some thoughts.

[jdinasia]

I love the extreme cultural bias represented in threads like this

But I guess it is valid for folks coming from Reader's Digest countries. Since they won't for the most part be open enough to experience Bangkok for what it is ... and instead will filter everything through their "western" concepts.

You can see some "old hands" in Thailand that are still doing the same thing .. and thuus staying miserable.

[Scott]

A good friend once described politeness as "the things you do that make life easier for other." Some of these are pretty much common sense. Letting people off an elevator before getting on just makes everyones life easier. The same with the BTS. I mean, the person trying to jump on is already the first in line.

I certainly understand the big push to get on and get a seat--but after others are off.

The same thing with holding a door open. I do it if it looks like it's going to slam shut in someone's face or if the person behind me is laden down with bags etc.

Bangkok seems to low on the scale, but I lived in Hong Kong for quite a while and they add new meaning to the word rude. I was once on an overcrowded elevator, which wouldn't move because of too much weight--NO ONE would get off, not even the last person who got on!! Now that's rude. Then a guy in the back decided to light a cigarette and started smoking with about 20 people in the elevator. No one said a word. I was toward the back and finally pushed my way through to get off, but it was still too heavy. (I got the next lift).

Hong Kong rudeness was sometimes so over the top it was actually funny!

[Heng]

lolz

[Chang_paarp]

Interesting to note Bangkok came one place behind Sydney.

When this article was reported in the Aussie press several other cities said their population was more polite.

[Donz]

sydney people are pretty rude, especially to tourists.

[The Skipper]

All that blocking and rushing, people shooting for the gap.

Thais trying to load the BTS Carraige before the riders disembark is like watching an NFL team with 2 yards to go for a touchdown.

It's would funny if it wasn't so stupid.

[jdinasia]

again ... rudeness is relative to the culture .....

people walking in front of others and not ducking .... common in the west ... RUDE here etc ....

think Cultural Bias ...

[1Lucky]

When I read this article in the Nation I had to check with or not it was some kind of April Fools type date in Thailand. Come on - I'd much rather have the manners, courtesy, service standards, kindness and pleasant manner of your typical Thai (even Bangkokian) than your typical aggressive (American!) New Yorker or loutish/introverted Londoner. Criteria such as etiquette getting on/off of trains/buses strikes me as an incredibly oversimplified manner to judge these things.

[Mr_Dave]

Come on - I'd much rather have the manners, courtesy, service standards, kindness and pleasant manner of your typical Thai (even Bangkokian) than your typical aggressive (American!) New Yorker or loutish/introverted Londoner.

I live in Bangkok and I agree with those comments from 1Lucky.

What kind of respect do middle-age white, men get "back there"?

A thousand times better living here.

.

[thohts]

The question here is if there is courtesy in Bangkok from native Bangkokians.

As it is difficult to answer this question with a cultural bias, the best way to find out if there's a general atmosphere of courtesy in Bangkok is simply to ask the natives what they think about other natives.

My girlfriend, who is Thai, seems to think that the Thais here are very rude and oftentimes inconsiderate of others. Of course, that's just her opinion.

We tend to see politeness (or the lack of it) in ways that matter to us. As the saying goes, it's all relative. Perhaps some people don't mind, but almost being run over by several motorbike drivers on sidewalks sure does matter to me.

Someone (usually a Thai) can claim that any perception of impoliteness is a cultural bias. This may often be true. However, there ARE some things that are just plain "uncourteous" no matter what country you're in. I can't imagine any country where throwing a tomato at a pedestrian's head wouldn't be considered very %@#%@ rude.

However, I'll take Thai rudeness over Western rudeness any day.

[number6]

Couldn't agree more with the negative results of the article, it's obvious to anyone and at times very annoying. But I would say it's not because Thai's are impolite, it's because their politeness is so different than western standards. In the west, the emphasis on politeness means going out of your way to make others feel good. In Thailand the emphasis on politeness is tolerating anything others do.

Personally, I have a hard time adjusting to this like all the unnecessary noise and often am in a pickle whether to hold the door for people because you get the feeling you are doing something so strange that the girls think you are making a pass and to others you are shocking by lowering yourself to a servant class that only doormen should be doing.

not that i agree with you but very nicely put ill see what my thai wife thinks since we often discuss cultural differnces

nice one have to think about it a lot because i really dont think in west were as nice as that

[somchai jones]

Methinks the whole thing is cobblers!

Edited July 13, 2006 by somchai jones

[thohts]

Methinks the whole thing is cobblers!

What is "cobblers"? I don't understand what that means. I think I may have a culturally-oriented linguistic bias.

[thohts]

nice one have to think about it a lot because i really dont think in west were as nice as that

For me, the ultimate courtesy test is that of offering a seat to someone more in need on public transportation. (Yep. It's a cultural bias!)

I've found that it's a hit-or-miss in Thailand (joined by Hong Kong and Singapore), with more misses than hits. The entrance of a very old or very visibly pregnant women onto the train does not dictate that she will get a seat. I've even witnessed a very old woman looking around for someone to give up their seat so she could sit down, on the BTS.

Neither is this the case in the US (can't speak for Europe), where I've witnessed the same kind of inconsiderate behaviour.

However, in the minority sub-cultures in the US (black and hispanic) it is an unwritten rule that a man offer his seat to:

-women (does not have to be an old woman)

-elderly

-pregnant women

-someone with a lot of bags

In the black and hispanic neighborhoods of Chicago and New York, for example, it would probably surprise a caucasian person to see a 20 year-old man offer his seat to a 40 year-old woman. But it happens all the time.

I'm sure the same black/hispanic man thinks, "How inconsiderate are they?!" when he takes a bus or train into a more white area and sees that it truly pains a lot of people to offer their seat to someone else, even if they are elderly or pregnant. (And, yes! Our man, too, would be culturally biased)

Of course, these are generalizations. But I speak from my own extensive experience.

Thai and Western cultures can both be very uncourteous. Each in their own way.

Thai people may often think, "He's a foreigner. He doesn't know."

Westerners may think, "These people are so %@%@ rude!"

[jdinasia]

I have never FAILED to see a pregnant woman offered a seat in BKK ... same with people with small kids ... or the VERY old/infirm ....

The rest seems to be gender parity as a rule here .. why would it be 'polite' to give a seat up to a healthy woman?

Learn from your environment and the cultural norms there ... after all "courtesy" is like moreys .... they belong to the society