Courtesy? In Bangkok?

[marshbags]

Courtesy along with civility are an asset to everyone while having understanding for the local culture always helps before expecting them to understand / duplicate yours.

Do to others as you would like them to do to you, remember to smile as this always helps in different situations and make allowances.

Lead by example, is another good quote

marshbags

[The Skipper]

Courtesy along with civility are an asset to everyone while having understanding for the local culture always helps before expecting them to understand / duplicate yours.

Do to others as you would like them to do to you, remember to smile as this always helps in different situations and make allowances.

Lead by example, is another good quote

marshbags

Do unto others is the policy I grew up with.

That's not the norm in Thailand.

It's pretty much, do what you want and others will tolerate it.

Just different.

I guess telling people not to block the skytrain door is rude so they just go thru life blocking the door...

[john b good]

Couldn't agree more with the negative results of the article, it's obvious to anyone and at times very annoying. But I would say it's not because Thai's are impolite, it's because their politeness is so different than western standards. In the west, the emphasis on politeness means going out of your way to make others feel good. In Thailand the emphasis on politeness is tolerating anything others do.

Personally, I have a hard time adjusting to this like all the unnecessary noise and often am in a pickle whether to hold the door for people because you get the feeling you are doing something so strange that the girls think you are making a pass and to others you are shocking by lowering yourself to a servant class that only doormen should be doing.

IMHO it all stems from the way that you were brought up (by your parents) a few examples that come to mind "don't speak with your mouth full, eat with your mouth closed (saw a beautiful girl eating last Sunday (she resembled a pig at the trough, the food was getting churned around inside her open mouth, and all the while she was talking to her friend) There are many other examples that come to mind such as don't pick your nose in public (most Thais have got this down to an art form) The list is endless.

Perhaps the fact that we don't have servants opening and closing doors in the West we don't let it slam in the face of the following person.

Just another case of TIT

I certainly don't extend common courtesy to make others feel good "the emphasis on politeness means going out of your way to make others feel good" Quite frankly I couldn't give a toss how they feel. I am courteous because it makes me feel good. We can't all be gentlemen but we can try

Edited July 29, 2006 by john b good

[beammeup]

Don't ya love it when you give your seat up to a woman with kids and she lets the big fat 12 year old boy sit down, and the old lady and 5 year old girl have to stand.

[Thaipwriter]

Once had an employee here who started to use her mobile phone when I was mid sentence in conversation with her. It was not to recieve a call but to make one

When I explained the day after that I was no longer employing her she found it impossible to make the connection between her actions and her sudden unemployment.

Som nam na

[Plus]

There are cultural norms that might not translate from one country to another, and there are real life situations where one must make a decision based on his personal understanding of what courtesy is. That's where some Thais often fail.

Things like lowering your head when passing someone are taught in kindergartens, but lifts and mobile phones are recent inventions, they don't have rules for them yet, and that's where their real, own courtesy shows.

While we exchange our personal experiences and anecdotes, the initial article is based on a survey. I read it some time ago but I think they used interesting technics there - dropping something and checking if people will warn you or passing through doors with lots of bags. It might not be very scentific, but there were able to put some numbers on courtesy. Generally the results should be closer to the average than our own observations.

[calibanjr.]

This is a complicated situation culturally, but here goes. I have had 3-4 Thai employees at any given time now for 3 years, all university grads. I've been learning Thai at a glacial pace, I try, but there it is. Now, when I'm dealing with a vendor or consultant (my customers are in the states), I've learned to ask very specific short-form questions that should have a yes, no, or some form of numeric answer, such as 3 days (which means 2 weeks) etc. Well my employee will talk to the other party for 5 MINUTES presumbly about the simple question that I posed. I have asked them any amount of times to update me as to the progress of the question, say after 1 minute of conversation. It seems to be a cultural Hoover Dam. I believe if I threatened them with termination on the spot it wouldn't make a difference.

[Arsenal]

I love the extreme cultural bias represented in threads like this

But I guess it is valid for folks coming from Reader's Digest countries. Since they won't for the most part be open enough to experience Bangkok for what it is ... and instead will filter everything through their "western" concepts.

You can see some "old hands" in Thailand that are still doing the same thing .. and thuus staying miserable.

Repeating "cultural bias" as a mantra to explain Thai bad manners is an intellectually lazy cop out.As a matter of fact my experience over 30 yeas has been that Thais are generally polite with foreigners, particularly when the foreigner in question can be put into some kind of context.

What however I have never got used to is the disgusting way rich Thais often treat the so called lower orders.If the so called lower orders are sufficiently deferential and subservient, there's usually no problem.However if there is even a spark of resistance, the full hateful force of contempt and sarcasm is apparent.I'm no revolutionary but there's part of me that would like to see these fat arsed creeps marched out for a spell in the paddy fields.The joke is that 90% of them are only 3 generations away from being peasants in S.China.

[thohts]

Was on the train yesterday. I continue to see the following behavior on the BTS...

A frail old Thai lady (about 75-80) was holding onto one of the poles because there were no "available" seats. She was the only one standing when I got on. There were lots of seated persons who were able to see her, many young. No one seemed to care.

After a couple of minutes someone got up from their seat, I motioned to the old lady that a seat was available. The old lady said "thank you" and began to walk over to the available seat. But by that time it was too late, as a woman of about 30 sat down, looking at us indifferently in the process.

Most other people in our section witnessed this, too, but still could not bring themselves to do anything about it (like get up).

Again, after a couple of minutes, a young man got up to get off the train. Someone else sat down before she could (again).

The only person who looked as though she might given up her seat was a school girl of about 13. I noticed that she was looking at the lady for about 5 minutes like she wanted to offer her seat. She eventually did, working up enough guts to ask (she was literally sitting on the edge of her seat, looking at the old lady the whole time like she wanted to say something). But by that time, the lady had given up and decided that she was going to stand the rest of her trip.

Old people have a hard enough time with the lack of escalators and elevators at most BTS stations (nevermind the handicapped). I guess this lack of courtesy is extended to them when they are finally able to make it onto the train.

[jdinasia]

Wow ....

yet again I was up in BKK for the weekend ... never saw an old lady standing (REALLY OLD) and younger people seated ...

oh well

[jdinasia]

I love the extreme cultural bias represented in threads like this

But I guess it is valid for folks coming from Reader's Digest countries. Since they won't for the most part be open enough to experience Bangkok for what it is ... and instead will filter everything through their "western" concepts.

You can see some "old hands" in Thailand that are still doing the same thing .. and thuus staying miserable.

Repeating "cultural bias" as a mantra to explain Thai bad manners is an intellectually lazy cop out.As a matter of fact my experience over 30 yeas has been that Thais are generally polite with foreigners, particularly when the foreigner in question can be put into some kind of context.

What however I have never got used to is the disgusting way rich Thais often treat the so called lower orders.If the so called lower orders are sufficiently deferential and subservient, there's usually no problem.However if there is even a spark of resistance, the full hateful force of contempt and sarcasm is apparent.I'm no revolutionary but there's part of me that would like to see these fat arsed creeps marched out for a spell in the paddy fields.The joke is that 90% of them are only 3 generations away from being peasants in S.China.

Care to explain this for me?

Is your complaint about the Thai Chinese? and under what circumstances?

or are you on-topic with the subject?

[alexth]

Wow ....

yet again I was up in BKK for the weekend ... never saw an old lady standing (REALLY OLD) and younger people seated ...

oh well

Maybe you should visit more often

Edited July 30, 2006 by alexth

[Nawtilus]

Everything stated here happens and more.

I always experience on the train the ignorance of people who will not stand up for others. As you say, trains are a new thing, but respect for your elders is not and is taught in this country from an early age. So it just means plain bad manners and ignorance.

Just yesterday I had my baby girl with me and on 2 trains, not one person offered a seat, yet they are all so happy and eager to touch her or smile at her etc. It is in these instances that I do not let them touch or even look at her.

Several weeks ago i was on a train each day with a broken leg, on crutches even and same deal, nobody bothered at least 80% of the time.

The number of times a door has shut in my face with either a kid in tow or carrying shit. Now I take great pleasure in simply walking through a door and letting it go, even greater pleasure when I know someone is following behind me.

I have pushed several people out of the way standing in front of the doors of the skytrain and subway when exiting.

One thing I love doing is when waiting for a taxi, again especially if I have the kids, one is only 1yo and still gets carried a lot in between walking efforts, so when waiting and someone walks and waits in front of you to hail a taxi before you, even if you been waiting for some time. I love walking then in front of them just as I see a taxi coming and climbing in, they look at me like I am a prick and I am.

[jdinasia]

Wow ....

yet again I was up in BKK for the weekend ... never saw an old lady standing (REALLY OLD) and younger people seated ...

oh well

Maybe you should visit more often

Up until 4 weeks ago I LIVED there for years ... now I'm in Phuket

Nawtilus---- I have NEVER seen the really old or infirm or pregnant NOT be offered a seat on BTS or the subway. However .... Taxi queuing ..... That'sa horse of another color!

[Arsenal]

jdinasia is determined we all should consider the example of Thai bad manners we all see around us should be explained away through cultural factors.Well scr#w that.Thailand has a genuine and longstanding culture of gracious behaviour and good manners, but much of it is hinged on subordination to their social so called betters.In terms of day to day respect for fellow human beings modern Thailand fails dismally.

[GuestHouse]

I put the whole Thai lack of public manners down to the emphasis on family in Thailand - Oft quoted as a good aspect of Thai society few examine the impact on Thais interaction with people outside of their group.

Thais are handicapped in social interactions outside of their family/extended family/work group.

It's not just manners, it's taking care of the environment beyond their own gate, charity, moving into external social circles, being introduced to strangers - The list goes on and on.

It has nothing to do with education, I know very well educated Thais who struggle with social reactions.

But here's a thing, I've also observed educated Thais moving into international corporation offices, indeed moving overseas - The very quickly pick up on what is expected in them in terms of courtesy.

I suspect they loose it just as quickly back home, but it does demonstrate they understand courtesy and why or at least when it is important.

[Donz]

ofcourse its education, not meaning from schools, but there parents.

Most there parents are old fashioned and may be uneducated themselves and dont have much knowledge on politness (not including religous politeness) Many years ago they were a poor country and politeness wasnt taught in there lives. Its changing now and there are alot more polite Thai people all over bangkok.

Its not going to change over night, probaly be around for another generation.

[vegas]

I meet Thais every day that slam doors in my face, queue jump, butt in, ignore old ladies struggling with heavy bags etc. which annoys the crap outa me.

However, Thais do surprise from time to time. On one occasion, a friend of a friend fell from a train while travelling in Thailand and was left unconcious on the side of the tracks somewhere between Bangkok and Surat Thani. An old Thai lady found him and with the assistance of family and friends, picked him up and carried him to hospital. The hospital contacted his family and they flew immediately to Thailand to visit the still unconscious guy. The hospital returned ALL the guy's valuables to his family and introduced them to the old lady who had found their son. They offered money but the old lady refused.

I still think of this whenever some <deleted> pushes in front of me at Au Bon Pain or steps on my foot when trying to get on the skytrain.

[thohts]

The number of times a door has shut in my face with either a kid in tow or carrying shit. Now I take great pleasure in simply walking through a door and letting it go, even greater pleasure when I know someone is following behind me.

I have pushed several people out of the way standing in front of the doors of the skytrain and subway when exiting

Join the club.. When I arrived in Thailand I was courteous to everyone (yes, including lowering my head when appropriate) in the ways I was accustomed to in the West. Then I realized that no matter how curteous I was to another Thai person, most of the time they would not acknowledge it. So I stopped, because obviously they don't care.

After nearly a couple of years, I've learned to not be curteous to most Thai people because they usually (besides lowering their heads) aren't curteous to me or one-another.

Why waste the effort...

[Arsenal]

I meet Thais every day that slam doors in my face, queue jump, butt in, ignore old ladies struggling with heavy bags etc. which annoys the crap outa me.

However, Thais do surprise from time to time. On one occasion, a friend of a friend fell from a train while travelling in Thailand and was left unconcious on the side of the tracks somewhere between Bangkok and Surat Thani. An old Thai lady found him and with the assistance of family and friends, picked him up and carried him to hospital. The hospital contacted his family and they flew immediately to Thailand to visit the still unconscious guy. The hospital returned ALL the guy's valuables to his family and introduced them to the old lady who had found their son. They offered money but the old lady refused.

I still think of this whenever some <deleted> pushes in front of me at Au Bon Pain or steps on my foot when trying to get on the skytrain.

Yes, a good point that Thais can be on occasion spectacularly kind and go well beyond the call of duty.Most of us have experienced "nam jai" kindnesses from Thais.Nevertheless I am afraid the general pattern is as descibed by myself and other posters.

[sbk]

ofcourse its education, not meaning from schools, but there parents.

Most there parents are old fashioned and may be uneducated themselves and dont have much knowledge on politness (not including religous politeness) Many years ago they were a poor country and politeness wasnt taught in there lives. Its changing now and there are alot more polite Thai people all over bangkok.

Its not going to change over night, probaly be around for another generation.

Actually, living in an area that until recently was still very rural, I find the more poorly educated, less well off Thai people to have far better manners than the wealthier ones.

Mind you, they still don't queue, but then, that is a western concept so why would they?

[jdinasia]

jdinasia is determined we all should consider the example of Thai bad manners we all see around us should be explained away through cultural factors.Well scr#w that.Thailand has a genuine and longstanding culture of gracious behaviour and good manners, but much of it is hinged on subordination to their social so called betters.In terms of day to day respect for fellow human beings modern Thailand fails dismally.

wow ....

So your issue AGAIN is with the class system more than anything else?

Is there bad behaviour? Mad manners? of course ... but when you are judging manners/acceptable behaviour you are just plain silly if you don't first get a grip on the cultural componant.

But .... then again ... whingeing on about things here in Thailand IS considered bad manners

[causticme]

Everyone seems to forget that Thailand is not the most developed country in the world and alot dont have the education as most foreigners. But even in good old sydney you find people like that.

This is a joke,NY the best.Not the NY I know.I wouldn't give you two baht for the whole article.

[alexth]

jdinasia is determined we all should consider the example of Thai bad manners we all see around us should be explained away through cultural factors.Well scr#w that.Thailand has a genuine and longstanding culture of gracious behaviour and good manners, but much of it is hinged on subordination to their social so called betters.In terms of day to day respect for fellow human beings modern Thailand fails dismally.

wow ....

So your issue AGAIN is with the class system more than anything else?

Is there bad behaviour? Mad manners? of course ... but when you are judging manners/acceptable behaviour you are just plain silly if you don't first get a grip on the cultural componant.

But .... then again ... whingeing on about things here in Thailand IS considered bad manners

JD, are you brainwashed?

[Donz]

Everyone seems to forget that Thailand is not the most developed country in the world and alot dont have the education as most foreigners. But even in good old sydney you find people like that.

This is a joke,NY the best.Not the NY I know.I wouldn't give you two baht for the whole article.

what the hel_l are you talking about

[MarkBKK]

jdinasia is determined we all should consider the example of Thai bad manners we all see around us should be explained away through cultural factors.Well scr#w that.Thailand has a genuine and longstanding culture of gracious behaviour and good manners, but much of it is hinged on subordination to their social so called betters.In terms of day to day respect for fellow human beings modern Thailand fails dismally.

wow ....

So your issue AGAIN is with the class system more than anything else?

Is there bad behaviour? Mad manners? of course ... but when you are judging manners/acceptable behaviour you are just plain silly if you don't first get a grip on the cultural componant.

But .... then again ... whingeing on about things here in Thailand IS considered bad manners

JD, are you brainwashed?

I think he may fail the prerequisite for that procedure ...

[PREM-R]

You can call it "Culture", you can call it "Manners" but the reality is that letting people get off of a packed BTS train before getting on yourself is just plain "Common Sense".

[vegas]

Any Thais out there wanna give their version of how rude farangs are and how we don't understand your culture?

[thedude]

5555 this is funny.

new yorkers are some of the rudest people ever. the only friendly ones are those who get a big tip from me. more money, more arse kissing.

thai people are almost universally polite. the point to note here is that they are most polite when interacting personally, and not when they are out in the general public.

apparent rudeness in the use of lifts and trains is due more to lapses in public education and the fact that infrastructure is so overburdened that it forces ordinary people into desperate survival mode behavior.

and yet there is admirable forebearance in the midst of so much chaos, ever noticed how little honking you hear even in the thickest traffic? and incidents of road rage are extremely low for this level of congestion.

[Losangels]

You can call it "Culture", you can call it "Manners" but the reality is that letting people get off of a packed BTS train before getting on yourself is just plain "Common Sense".

Similar experience trying to get off the bus, lady rush on the stair of the bus before I can get off, I purposely bump into her and told her to wait till I get off. Her reaction was of a surprised look on her face and did not know why I was mad at her. I guess the concept of common sense here for many is of nonsense